Who are the good guys in Skyrim?

[Joccaren]

Oh Boy! I love it when I get a point by point post to play with.

Agreed

Irrefutable. Except that, Tiber Septim was from Atamora (the home of the proto-nords) and spent his youth in Skyrim. Tiber Septim, or General Talos as he was also known, joined the command of Emperor Cuhlecain, who's desire was to unite the Empire again. The Emperor's army was Cyrodiilic, and met the combined armies of High Rock and Skyrim in battle. The Skyrim forces actually joined the Cyrodiilic army when they saw Tiber Septim use his Thu'um.

And the fact that many Emperors of Cyrodiil were from Skyrim (In particular Solitude), but that's getting a bit too far into specifics. Cyrodiil is the heart of the 'modern' Empire.

Er...not so much. The Oblivion crisis was over two hundred years before. While the damage to the Empire was wide ranging in effects, Cyrodiil itself was not affected terribly. It has certainly recovered from the damage of the Oblivion Crisis.

Granted, the Oblivion Crisis was 200 years ago. The great war, however, was far more recent, and they lost their capital (And eventually retook it) during it. The effects of that war would still be present in Cyrodiil, otherwise they would be carrying out their 'surprise' attack on the Summerset Isles.

Evidence please. I'm not saying it's wrong, but I am saying that Cyrodiil really doesn't have any other nations to "drain."

Think of it simply. Which Empire in history has not called upon the resources of its Vassal states to help it after it gets a hard hit in a war? The answer is the ones who let those states go. Cyrodiil is not letting High Rock and Skyrim go, and needing resources to rebuild after the great war, they will be taking it from their Vassal states to accelerate the process. Whether those resources are minerals, food, troops, arms, armour, livestock, manual labourers, mages - who knows. Cyrodiil, if unprepared to attack the Summerset Isles now, would be preparing for it. Being tacticians they would realise the faster they can prepare, the more likely they are to catch the Thalmor somewhat off guard. Whilst there will be nothing - or maybe a single note, I have not found everything is Skyrim yet - stating directly that Cyrodiil is taking the resources of Skyrim, it would be stupid not to. Cyrodiilian's are anything but stupid.

True and false. What happened is that Cyrodiil began negotiating a peace settlement after their capital had been captured and retaken. The Emperor realized that his forces were severely depleted after the battle of the Red Ring, despite managing to defeat the Aldemeri forces. By the time that Hammerfell rejected the peace treaty, the Empire's hands were tied. They could fight another bloody war which they were definitely not ready for, or they could cut ties with Hammerfell. I'm not saying they were necessarily right, but if you look at it from the Empire's point of view, they would've been sacrificing hundreds or thousands of soldiers, dealing with a depressed economy and destroyed agricultural and industrial centers, and ultimately no guarantee of victory. I would've made the same choice.

Ahh, but do you know one of the main reasons Hammerfell rejected the treaty? It handed half of their land to the Thalmor. Not Half of Cyrodiil, half of Hammerfell. The Empire sold Hammerfell out for peace. Meanwhilst, High Rock is presumably untouched, Skyrim itself is untouched, merely a number of its soldiers died in the Red Ring attack, and Hammerfell, as shown later, is more than capable of shoving out the Thalmor. Cyrodiil surrendered as she had run out of resources to fight the war. What this decision ends up coming down to is; How well equipped do we think Hammerfell, Skyrim and High Rock are to fight the Empire?
If they are well equipped, the Empire should attack soon. If they are wasted and unlikely to even retake the main continent from the Thalmor, the Empire should wait. From the looks of things, Skyrim is fine, Hammerfell is fine and we hear nothing of High Rock, implying it was barely even affected by the war (We hear of battles in Cyrodiil and Hammerfell, but nothing of High Rock. If something major had happened there, we would have heard of it). This leaves Cyrodiil. They are either the limp leg holding back the other races, albeit with good Tacticians, or they are ready to attack here and now. Either way, dealing with the problem sooner rather than later is advised. Whoever wins the war, the Empire will be forced to act. We'll get to that later.

Hold it, what? Imperial Forces were certainly helped by Skyrim and Hammerfell, but they were by no means the majority. Bosmer and Dunmer of Valenwood and Morrowind have traditionally held posts in the Imperial Legion. On top of that, only Cyrodiilic and Skyrim forces are noted as having been present at the battle of the Imperial City. The reason Hammerfell fared so well is generally accepted as due to vast numbers of Veteran Legionaries from Hammerfell, that stayed behind, despite orders to the contrary. Cyrodiilic and Skyrim forces were the brunt of the army that retook the Imperial City during the battle of the Red Ring.

Cyrodiil are the tacticians of the army. Whilst certainly able to fight, their warriors can not match up to Nord or Redguard warriors in fair combat. The Dunmer are kinda in a bit of trouble after the Red Year, Valenwood I no longer hear of as being an Imperial state. In the current Empire, numerically Skyrim and Cyrodiil's military will be similar. Strength wise, Skyrim has the hardier warriors. Tactic wise, Cyrodiil has the better tacticians. From there you have High Rock, the mages of the Empire. In its optimal state at present time, presuming Hammerfell, Skyrim and Valenwood rejoined with them (Morrowind being in a bit of trouble ATM and requiring assistance more than being able to give it), Hammerfell and Skyrim's warriors would Numerically approx equal Cyrodiil and Valenwood. Individual combatants, Redguard and Nord are stronger. The main combat force of the Empire is Hammerfell and Skyrim.
If problems in Morrowind were to be solved, that would rebalance everything so that Hammerfell and Skyrim alone were no longer the bulk of the Imperial military. As is, all able Imperial states together, they would be.
Hammerfell's warriors led by Veteran Legionnaires is a perfect match up. The great warriors of Hammerfell with Cyrodiilic strategists. In combat however, the Hammerfell warriors would be more effective than the Cyrodiilic ones. I mean, curved swords man. Curved Swords! P)

Despite this, when a war with the Thalmor arises, the sides will be drawn on who is Thalmor and who is Anti-Thalmor. If Skyrim breaks away, Cyrodiil will probably become a Vichy state to the Aldemeri. If the Empire keeps Skyrim, though, they score a fairly major victory, prove they're not dead, which will mean that Cyrodiil, bolstered by recent victories and Skyrim's help, will not be in a position to be toppled by the Thalmor so easily.

Here's the thing, it works both ways.
Skyrim breaks away, it shows that it and the other Vassal Empire states don't need the Empire to be strong, and they will unite under that same 'Anti-Thalmor' ideal.
Cyrodiil, would have two choices.
1. Admit they are ready to go to war and join up with their allies
2. Admit they are too screwed over by the Thalmor presently and surrender.

Which do you think the great Generals would choose? Complete Thalmor occupation, or their allies? All that changes is that war is declared there and then instead of later. Either way, for a surprise attack to work, all Thalmor would need to be kicked out of Mainland Tamriel anyway, so they don't catch the armies leaving on boats and don't get intel on exact locations they will land. As such, no matter what happens, the Thalmor will be aware of the surprise attack. All that this is is a vote of confidence: Is the Empire able to handle the Thalmor, or are they willing to slip further into their grasp whilst preparing. If handled correctly, I feel a surprise attack soon against the Thalmor would be more effective than one that happens later once they have a firmer hold on the mainland.
What this shows is that the Empire is not afraid of the Thalmor, and believes itself strong enough to go to war.
The Thalmor are doing everything they can to stop unity on mainland Tamriel (As implied by Ulfric's dossier). What better way to instantly unite all the sides than give them one large common enemy? You could slowly waste your troops fighting wars to unite each state individually, but the Thalmor will be interfering wherever they can. Giving everyone a reason to unite is a far better method.

Ok, lets be honest, generally the reason that leaders have advisors is because they're not particularly well suited to lead, especially in terms of Monarchies. The leaders are hereditary, so their leadership is not merit based. The advisors' leadership, on the other hand, is. They've proven that they have good decision making capabilities. The mark of a good Jarl is probably not their personal reasoning skills, but their ability to pick good advisors and listen to said advisors.

When you look at other Jarls though, there are those that are competent with competent advisors. Unfortunately those are either not liked by the people (Morthal as an example), or with the current loyalty of only half the Jarls (Ulfric. Whatever can be said, he is a competent leader, and his advisors are also competent). Elisif is one of the worst choices for High Queen, yet she is almost assured the title out of sympathy for her dead husband. Whilst liked by her people, she acts like spoilt brat at time, and at other times is too focused on her grief to properly make decisions. When you look at Falkreath, its old Jarl was asked to step down so that another could take the place. The excuse that was used was that he was becoming incompetent, when really it was just that he supported the Stormcloaks. If incompetence is reason enough to step down a Jarl, why has it not been done to Elisif?
Having advisors run the country for her is all well and good, but get to meetings with other nations, would an incompetent leader constantly being corrected by her advisors come across as anything but easy to manipulate and foolish?

Sure, but then...lets be honest, there's very little evidence that torture brings good information.

They managed to get the Information on where Esbern was through torture. There is evidence that it provides good information.

Even Ulfric Stormcloak (who was broken and gave information to the Thalmor) held out long enough for the information to be useless to them (it WAS useless, but they told him that it wasn't).

The reason it was useless was that by that time they had already captured the Imperial City. Ulfric seems the kind to hold out more than most. An Imperial Officer or General may do similar, but at the moment the Thalmor have all the time in the world.

Torture isn't reliable.

It is, it just takes time with some targets. Get a politician not suited to military life, they'll talk quickly. Get a seasoned soldier, they'll talk later. How long have the Thalmor had to interrogate soldiers? How much longer will they be able to interrogate them?
A faster solution is better here, and that is what Stormcloak victory offers.

Ulfric is a fairly good leader, I'll give you that. He's certainly got all the attributes that are required, and demonstrates prowess in both personnel and strategic decisions. That being said, he is not indispensable by any means. His use of the Thu'um is impressive, but not unattainable, and the root of many of his greatest victories were from the Dragonborn (and subsequently the Empire's, should the Dragonborn side with the Empire). Ultimately, I think the Dragonborn's abilities would certainly be of far greater use in the coming war, and I have no doubt that both the Stormcloaks and Empire recognize that.

Of course he is not indispensable. Nobody in Tamriel is, except the Dragonborn until Alduin is defeated. Ulfric does, however, present the best leadership in Skyrim (IMO). He is a competent leader by himself, and he has competent advisors whom he does listen to, and takes their opinions with a grain of salt.
Also, his major victories in the Skyrim Civil War were down to the Dragonborn. His Victory in Markarth over the Reach Natives was his own doing (Though it sounds as if the whole attack was manipulated by the Thalmor, I doubt they were personally there to carry it out).

Another point: The Dunmer didn't blow up their city, the Nevarine, by destroying the Heart of Lorkhan, caused the destruction of the city. Not something the Dunmer wanted or caused.

I am talking about the events of the Red Year, where Vivec disappeared after than Oblivion Crisis, leaving the Ministry of Truth unstable. A machine was made to keep the Ministry aloft, powered by a living soul. The lover of the soul that volunteered to power the machine shut of the machine to 'save' her. This resulted in the Ministry crashing into Vivec city, causing Red Mountain to erupt and making vast stretches of Morrowind uninhabitable. This, combined with the Argonian attack from the South, caused many Dumner to flee Morrowind entirely and go to the island of Solstheim in the North West.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Morrowind
Last paragraph if you want a source.

Agreed, but I can't see how this is really a point for or against the Stormcloaks. Their dogma requires an inherent Xenophobia, which is often carried over into racism. Sure they're not all bad, but not all of them have to be for this to be a problem.

It is more to those who use Racism as a bad point for the Stormcloaks. If they take over and Ulfric is crowned High King, Solitude and Windhelm may become Racist, but the rest of Skyrim is more likely to stay as is (Possible exception Whiterun).

He cares about appearances, and for good reason. If a Nord took the throne without the moot, he might have problems with his legitimacy being questioned down the road. It's the same reason that Lyndon B. Johnson insisted on having his inauguration while Airforce One was still on the ground, so no one could accuse him of not being inaugurated on American soil. The moot is a done deal, there's no chance of anyone else being picked, all it is is a show to make sure that there are no questions of legitimacy later.

To say there is no chance of anyone else being picked is wrong. There is a low chance of anyone else being picked, however Ulfic does have those, even within the Stormcloak Holds, that do not agree with him. It is highly likely that Ulfric will become king, but not certain (Hell, I wouldn't put it beyond Bethesda to have him lose the election simply to make it an easier tie in in the next game, with one of the other Jarls being elected by the Moot so that they don't have to say that either Ulfric won (By him being crowned king) nor that he lost).
Also, no matter his reasons, Ulfric does care about Nord tradition. Whether it is because cries of legitimacy may surface later, and the whole point of his campaign and going against that now would paint him in a negative light, or whether he actually does deeply feel for Nord traditions, he does care.

That's not quite true. Ulfric isn't exactly an asset to them, but the civil war weakens the Empire, which is why he's listed as one. It's not that he's a Thalmor, or even sympathetic to the Thalmor, it's that he's doing their work for them, by killing Legionaries. On the other hand, their grasp on the Empire is not as strong as you imply. If it were, the Empire would not be gearing up to fight another war with the Thalmor, as is implied by the Imperial ending.

This is the same way the Empire are an asset to them, by killing their own citizens. High Rock was allowed to secede, why not let Skyrim do so too? It would save both of their soldiers to fight the Thalmor. Both sides, however, decided to fight each other, thereby both helping the Thalmor.
And now we have an interesting question; Just how much influence do the Thalmor have over the Empire?
You say that they would not be gearing up for another war if the Thalmor had a great grasp on them, but what about the Thalmor letting them prepare so that they can crush their 'surprise' attack with an ambush.
There are two ways that the Empire can be at the moment. Any 'happy medium' is just a lesser extent in one of those ways.
1. Prepared to fight the Thalmor.
If this is true, then they should not be fighting the Nords, they should tell them 'We will give you Talos worship and your traditions, if you help us fight those that took them from you'. This would drop a lot of Ulfric's support straight up, and get Skyrim ready to fight the Thalmor. From there, they could send a similar message to Hammerfell, and get High Rock to ship out with them too. Get Vvardenfell, and march out. As is, they can't even fix a civil war in Skyrim, let alone launch an invasion.
2. They are not prepared to fight the Thalmor.
This gives the Thalmor an advantage over them, and allows them into the Empire to take its secrets and spread dissent. If the Empire is not ready to fight, it is within the Thalmor's grasp. No matter how much they are 'gearing up', unless they have kicked the Thalmor out and are prepared to fight there and then, the Thalmor are in control of the Empire to some extent.

Look at it this way, if Skyrim wins, they end the empire. The war becomes Skyrim, Hammerfell, and High Rock, with support from resistance groups in Valenwood and Cyrodiil, versus the Summerset Isles, and Elswyr with token support from Cyrodiil and Valenwood, and possible support from Black Marsh. On the other hand, if the Empire wins, they score a major victory, showing people that they are still a force to be reckoned with. The Empire, being Skyrim, High Rock, and Cyrodiil would go up against the Thalmor. Hammerfell isn't about to spit in the Empire's eye, despite their perceived betrayal, because of the age old axiom, "The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend." Hammerfell, High Rock, Skyrim, and the newly invigorated Cyrodiil, plus help from resistance forces in Valenwood and possible help from Morrowind (due to their historical Imperial leanings) versus the Summerset Isles and Elswyr, with token support from Valenwood. Black Marsh wouldn't even come into the equation in the second scenario, due to Morrowind's Imperial sympathies causing them trouble.

Once Skyrim wins, they end the Empire's wait to attack. Cyrodiil would be stupid not to rejoin with its rebelling Vassal states, especially if they went to fight the Thalmor. Whichever side wins, the continent will join together against the Thalmor. All that who wins decides is how soon they march out. Skyrim's victory will spell instant war with the Thalmor. Imperial Victory spells more time for the Thalmor to prepare.
Unfortunately, Morrowind is mostly out of the question thanks to the Argonians and the Red Year. Cyroiilic Diplomats might be able to get them to co-operate with Black Marsh for an attack, but Morrowind itself lies largely in ruins, and would be unlikely to accept to fight the Thalmor thanks to their Argonian problem, and unlikely to join the Empire if the Argonians were given a place and not forced to give the land back. There is a bit of Diplomacy to be done there before that will work, but that could hopefully be done in the time it takes to drive the Thalmor off the mainland. If not, it is unlikely the two sides would agree to stop fighting.

This is the problem I have with subjectivity. You can claim that you believe one side or the other, but that doesn't make you right. Without evidence, neither side can be fully trusted, and while ultimately the decision I made was the same as yours, it doesn't at all make me right. It forces me to choose a side, to make a decision, without all of the evidence being brought before me. If I were to be a juror debating the woman's guilt with ONLY the evidence that was presented, I would not ever be able to find her guilty. There's simply not enough proof.

True, but you have evidence. Whilst not enough to convict someone, it is certainly enough to warrant an arrest - all the Redguards are doing. After that, in Hammerfell, all evidence will be bought forward to justify whatever punishment they decide. All that is there for us to decide is; 'Are the Redguards the 'police' in this case, or the 'gang''.
If I were a juror debating the woman's fate, I would have the evidence of her crimes bought forward.

Again, I follow your logic, but let me pose this to you. If the Thalmor wanted to capture one of their chief critics in Hammerfell, someone who's leadership had helped push them out, and they wanted to do it in the Imperial province of Skyrim

Stop right there. Why is the woman IN Skyrim? If she is a princess, why is she not with her personal guard in her palace? In fact, where even is her personal guard?
Even if you can come up with a reason for her being in Skyrim, why not flee to Hammerfell? She knows where the Redguard are, she has avoided them thus far, why not make a break to Hammerfell, or send a messenger asking for assistance. She knows she'll get none.

Who's people have a known hatred of the Thalmor, what better way than to hire a group of Redguard Mercenaries (which is what they are, make no mistake, they are mercs)? That way you have both a plausible story, and you don't deal with the issues of the Skyrim people defending this woman.

Yet we still have the problem of why Redguard are working for the Thalmor. Mercenaries or no, I doubt a Redguard would accept to kill/capture a member of a royal Redguard family for their greatest enemy. It would be like an Imperial soldier coming up to a Stormcloak and asking them to kill/capture Ulfric's advisor. The answer would be no.

I admit that the theory has flaws, but so does the Redguard mercenary's story. One that jumped at me was simply, why send a mercenary group? I can of course see the benefit, in that the group may be able to follow her more readily than an actual law group, but surely the Redguards could have used the anti-Thalmor sentiments of their Skyrim brethren to extradite her capture. The fact that they make no attempt to appealing to the Jarl seems suspect to me.

They were thrown out of the city, pretty good reason why they couldn't ask the Jarl. Yes, that was due to them doing some other stuff whilst looking for the woman, but they no longer have the ability to ask the Jarl to help them find the woman. Would it have been smarter to ask the Jarl straight up? Yep. Would this be a matter they would rather keep quiet (A princess selling them out to the Thalmor). Quite likely. Could they be certain the Jarl would even listen to them? No. Why did the woman not go see the Jarl?

Generally, I agree with your outcome. I turned her over as well. That being said, I never felt quite right about it, and I would not be able to properly defend my decision to turn a conceivably innocent woman over to men who I do not know and who have no legal credentials. For all I know, they stunned her, carried her out into the wild, and stabbed her to death, or worse. I choose to believe that they stunned her, took her into custody, and returned to Hammerfell for her to face trial, but I have no confirmation of that.

I highly doubt they stabbed her in the Wilds. This comes from a comment made if you let them capture her, then kill her. They say 'You come all this way then just kill her?'. They want her alive. Whether this is for Thalmor torture (I find Redguard working for Thalmor unlikely), or for a trial in Hammerfell (Judging by circumstances and the individual parties in the conflict I find this more likely) is uncertain, but it is very likely that the woman is a traitor, whilst there is only speculation that the mercs may be working for the Thalmor. A semi-grey decision that can be made with some evidence to provide a more likely good side. When you look at each of the characters and their stories, the Princesses one is filled with flaws, the Mercenaries has few if any.

 

[Joccaren]

Can't you say the same things about Stormcloak Holds?

Yes you can. I was merely pointing out that its not only the Stormcloak holds that are poorly governed, as the poster I quoted had been implying.

Riften: The Thieves Guild is known about and practically ignored, the Black-Briar mead dynasty runs the show, the court wizard is incompetent, the steward is bought out, and the Jarl is oblivious to it all... and the only reason her housecarl doesn't handle it personally is because it would mean risking the Jarl's death in his absence.

Yep, the pretty-much-exact equal of Markarth. Bethesda seems to have gone for Parallels in Skyrim with the Jarls.

Dawnstar: Paranoid freak accusing everyone of being Imperial spies, plus he gives so many of his troops to the war effort that his hold is poorly protected... not the smartest move for the hold sharing the largest border with Imperial territory.

To be fair, those nightmares weren't helping any. I'd put him on the same level as Falkreath - led by someone more interested in their own personal ventures (Falkreath his comfort, Dawnstar fighting with the Stormcloaks) that their hold.

Winterhold: Jarl hates magic, despite controlling the hold with the mage's college, to the point where other Jarls ignore him because of it, the college feels the need to defend itself from him, and the Jarl's own steward wants a magic staff just to spite him.

The Jarl hates magic for a good reason: Most of Winterhold think the great collapse occurred thanks to the college. In fact, the Jarl, from memory, is the only one that believes the Archmage that the College had nothing to do with it, and that it was the eruption of Red Mountain that caused the collapse.
Winterhold's Jarl is also not ignored because he does not like magic. Many Nord's don't like magic. He is ignored because all of his hold's history was washed quite literally down the drain in the Great collapse, and he presides over an almost literal Ghost Town at the moment. He is the parallel of Morthal; Not entirely trusted by his people (Morthal's general citizens, Winterhold's Steward and the college) and not listened to a great deal because they preside over a nothing sort of town.

Windhelm: Ulfric spends so much time concentrating on the war effort that he doesn't seem to give a rat's ass about Windhelm itself. There's a murderer on the loose, racial tensions are high, and with the wizard being so cooped up in his own experiments, only the steward seems to be doing anything for the people. Oh sure, Ulfric is loved by the people, but he only seems to be good at running an army, not actually ruling.

The parallel to Solitude. After Potema returns, the Jarl doesn't do much to stop it. Her advisor asks you to go deal with it, rather than risking their war troops fighting her, and because you have more experience and yada yada yada. In Windhelm, Ulfric is concentrating on the war more than his own hold, yet his advisor is concerned with the murders. They are both Holds led by leaders more focused on the War (Solitude Tullius for Skyrim and Elisif for revenge, Winterhold Ulfric for Skyrim) than their own hold.

Neither side has an actual good hold. The only good hold is Whiterun, and that is Neutral until the war actually begins. All that that point was about was pointing out that not only the Stormcloaks have bad holds.

 

[almostgold]

Stormcloaks because I am a Khajiit who has a stake in neither but feels for the freedom of Skyrim and sides with Ulfric Stormcloak, even though he has issues dealing with the Thalmor [he hates them, but he will work for them for coin]

Spoiler

Ulfric Stormcloak is working for the Thalmor

He does whatever gives him coin and fame....

I always kinda found this as a disappointing character interpretation of Ulfric:

Yes, he's a racist (technically Xenophobic, whatever) entitled dick. Alright, but that doesn't exclude him from being smart. He is clearly disciplined enough to have learned to use The Voice, which apparently takes years of study.

Ulfric spoilers discovered in Thlmor embassy below:

Spoiler

And the "He works for the Thalmor" logic is utter bullshit. The dossier states he wont respond to them, but they consider him still an asset. The Thalmor have him start the war to weaken the Empire, and tell him to not finish it. However, we can clearly see he has no intention of this during the Stormcloak questline. At no point does he say "Ehhhh, maybe we'll hold off on the attack on Solitude. You know, for tactical reasons... yeah. Tactically keep the war going on a little longer...". He clearly isn't honoring his deal at all. So here's what seems to be the most likely scenario: Thalmor capture him, he develops a swift hatred for them. Later they offer to pay him to start a rebellion against the Empire, and by expansion them. Fuck yeah. He takes their money, starts a rebellion, and stops talking to them. When the situation for quick victory presents itself, (Davakhin on his side, chaos caused by dragons returning), he takes it, kicks the Thalmor out, and leaves wondering how they just lost a huge sum of coin, and entire region of influence, and what they thought was their asset. Check and Mate.

So yeah, douchebag. But not a stupid or traitorous douchebag.

 

[Zeckt]

The Stormcloaks are VERY obviously the bad guys. I've played the game from both sides now, and with the Stormcloaks in charge, the economy is in ruins because nobody buys from non-Nords, people are driven from their homes, and worst of all, it's implied that the Altmer will invade and subjugate them regardless of their victory.

The empire's not perfect, but they maintain a competent government, and keep the Altmer at bay.

So yes, for the first time in entertainment history, the Empire are the good guys, the rebels are the bad guys.

Whoa, dude. Just whoa. So glad I went empire, the stormcloaks can burn in the hell I sent them at

 

[WolfThomas]

The Scale of EVIL!!1! (as judged by mortal men)

10 -- Mehrunes Dagon, Alduin, other world-enders
9 -- Aldmeri Dominion
8 -- Falmer (want to end world-not up to it)
7 -- Dark Brotherhood
6 -- Many Deadra Princes
5 -- Bandits, Necromancers
4 -- Ulfric "The Bear of Markarth" Stormcloak, The Empire as a whole
3 -- Thieves, Lollygaggers, "Good" princes
2 -- General Tullius, The Stormcloaks as a whole
1 -- The Vigil of Stendarr, The Psijic Order
0 -- Priests of Mara

This is a pretty accurate scale.

 

[Yokai]

The civilians. The regular people who just want to get on with their lives are the only truly, 100% good people in Skyrim. Every militant faction has some pretty nasty skeletons in their closet, and this is including the Forsworn, Companions, the College of Winterhold; hell, even the Vigilants of Stendarr. Pretty much every organization with any power in Skyrim exists in a morally grey area, which is one of the thing s I love about the setting. You can pretty much go in any direction, and actually support the faction whose goals you most agree with, rather than because they're the "good guys" or the "bad guys". Makes for a hell of a bleak setting, although that's a bit refreshing after Oblivion's knights vs. demons black and white morality.

 

[Zeckt]

The Scale of EVIL!!1! (as judged by mortal men)

10 -- Mehrunes Dagon, Alduin, other world-enders
9 -- Aldmeri Dominion
8 -- Falmer (want to end world-not up to it)
7 -- Dark Brotherhood
6 -- Many Deadra Princes
5 -- Bandits, Necromancers
4 -- Ulfric "The Bear of Markarth" Stormcloak, The Empire as a whole
3 -- Thieves, Lollygaggers, "Good" princes
2 -- General Tullius, The Stormcloaks as a whole
1 -- The Vigil of Stendarr, The Psijic Order
0 -- Priests of Mara

This is a pretty accurate scale.

I don't agree, why are the stormcloaks better then the empire when the empire at least maintains a non racist government whereas the stormcloaks view everybody else as a means to cheap labor?

Ever been to windhelm at the Argonian embassy? they are only allowed to work because no nord wants the dock job, and pay the argonians a fraction of what a nord would get. If stormcloaks got into power and your not a nord no matter what you do in life you would never be an equal of a nord and your only crime would be being born. The stormcloaks should trade places with the empire in this scale. (except the blades of course, they can also go to hell.)

 

[WolfThomas]

I don't agree, why are the stormcloaks better then the empire when the empire at least maintains a non racist government whereas the stormcloaks view everybody else as a means to cheap labor?

Ever been to windhelm at the Argonian embassy? they are only allowed to work because no nord wants the dock job, and pay the argonians a fraction of what a nord would get. If stormcloaks got into power and your not a nord no matter what you do in life you would never be an equal of a nord and your only crime would be being born. The stormcloaks should trade places with the empire in this scale. (except the blades of course, they can also go to hell.)

In that the Stormcloaks are fighting for independence with religious freedoms. It's good in concept and most Stormcloaks are like Ralof, nice guys swept up by a douche Ulfric. The empire is an occupying force, restricting worship and facilitating evil like the Thalmor (yes they don't like it either, but they still do it), yes it's for the greater good but it still sucks. If anything I'd swap the Theives up above the Empire.

 

[Pandabearparade]

I made my decision when I met the Jarl Elisif of Solitude, whose husband was killed by Ulfric. I'd already met Ulfric and General Tullius, and I'd already concluded both were different kinds of assholes, but she was the one who finally swayed my decision. I realized if joining the stormcloaks would put me on a path to kill her, I wasn't going to be happy with the so-called "freeing Skyrim for the Nords." She didn't strike me as power-hungry or oppressive, just a woman trying to do the best for her people whilst mourning the loss of her husband.

I had the same experience. I was leaning towards the Stormcloaks at the beginning, but slowly started to lean back towards the Empire. Meeting Elisif was the last thing necessary to push me into enlisting.

 

[novawolfe]

I'm getting kind of tired of reading through everything, so I'll try to give my opinion. So if a war with the Thalmor breaks out, and I'm going race-wise here, it'll be the Bretons, Redguards Nords, and Imperials against the Altmer, Bosmer, and I guess the Khajiiti since they are clients of the Dominion.

The Dunmer and Argonians are kind of out of the war because of their own conflict.

I really wonder how the Orcs will fit into this because the wiki says that High Rock and Hammerfell sacked Orsinium, causing most of the Orcs to evacuate to Skyrim with the help of the Imperial Legion. Nords and their Orc mercenaries have proceeded to attack Morrowind. The Argonians eventually invade when Vvardenfell goes to hell and the Dunmer retreat to Solstheim. What happened to the Nordic invasion during that time? Was it because they plunged into civil war? That seems to be it. The Orcs are technically Mer though, and Humans did displace their race. So it would be interesting to see if they joined the Dominion and were used as shock troops against the Men.

So in effect, I'd like to see the Orcs joining the Nords in their war against the Dominion, then it'd be kind of like sword vs magic. I'd also like to see the Argonians join that side as well (just because I almost always play as one and I dislike elves), but that probably won't happen. Either way, the Aldmeri can go to hell for all I care.

 

[galaktar]

Clearly the Aldmeri Dominion, as the vanguard of the chosen race.

Heute, Tamriel!
Morgens die Nirn!

 

[Justanewguy]

And the fact that many Emperors of Cyrodiil were from Skyrim (In particular Solitude), but that's getting a bit too far into specifics. Cyrodiil is the heart of the 'modern' Empire.

Oh, I'll certainly give you that. My point was that Skyrim has great historical significance to the Empire. The largest reason that the Empire is "Cyrodilic" is because of Reman Cyrodiil being the first to unite a large part of Tamriel in the Second Empire, and so the Third Empire used the Capital of White Gold Tower as its power base.

Granted, the Oblivion Crisis was 200 years ago. The great war, however, was far more recent, and they lost their capital (And eventually retook it) during it. The effects of that war would still be present in Cyrodiil, otherwise they would be carrying out their 'surprise' attack on the Summerset Isles.

I certainly agree with this. The Great War's effects were both devastating and wide ranging, which is why I think that the Imperials need the victory in Skyrim. The win would greatly bolster the ailing Legion forces, giving them something to rally around, and the guff to really pull in new recruits.

Think of it simply. Which Empire in history has not called upon the resources of its Vassal states to help it after it gets a hard hit in a war? The answer is the ones who let those states go. Cyrodiil is not letting High Rock and Skyrim go, and needing resources to rebuild after the great war, they will be taking it from their Vassal states to accelerate the process. Whether those resources are minerals, food, troops, arms, armour, livestock, manual labourers, mages - who knows. Cyrodiil, if unprepared to attack the Summerset Isles now, would be preparing for it. Being tacticians they would realise the faster they can prepare, the more likely they are to catch the Thalmor somewhat off guard. Whilst there will be nothing - or maybe a single note, I have not found everything is Skyrim yet - stating directly that Cyrodiil is taking the resources of Skyrim, it would be stupid not to. Cyrodiilian's are anything but stupid.

That makes sense, and as I said, I wasn't disputing the point. Generally, though, I see the Empire more as a symbiotic relationship, where the member states are expected to look out for each other. Either way, Cyrodiil would be the state needing taking care of right now.

Ahh, but do you know one of the main reasons Hammerfell rejected the treaty? It handed half of their land to the Thalmor. Not Half of Cyrodiil, half of Hammerfell. The Empire sold Hammerfell out for peace. Meanwhilst, High Rock is presumably untouched, Skyrim itself is untouched, merely a number of its soldiers died in the Red Ring attack, and Hammerfell, as shown later, is more than capable of shoving out the Thalmor. Cyrodiil surrendered as she had run out of resources to fight the war. What this decision ends up coming down to is; How well equipped do we think Hammerfell, Skyrim and High Rock are to fight the Empire?
If they are well equipped, the Empire should attack soon. If they are wasted and unlikely to even retake the main continent from the Thalmor, the Empire should wait. From the looks of things, Skyrim is fine, Hammerfell is fine and we hear nothing of High Rock, implying it was barely even affected by the war (We hear of battles in Cyrodiil and Hammerfell, but nothing of High Rock. If something major had happened there, we would have heard of it). This leaves Cyrodiil. They are either the limp leg holding back the other races, albeit with good Tacticians, or they are ready to attack here and now. Either way, dealing with the problem sooner rather than later is advised. Whoever wins the war, the Empire will be forced to act. We'll get to that later.

I agree that Hammerfell had a right to to be angry about the White Gold Concordat, but I also maintain that if I were in the emperor's position, I would've done the same thing. Its a matter of a guaranteed peace and time to rebuild versus another very costly war when the Empire's resources are already depleted.

As to High Rock, the Bretons aren't exactly known for their military prowess. They make great battle mages, but the fact that they haven't been mentioned so far, says to me that they haven't had a great effect on the war at all. Nord, Redguard, and Imperial forces were all present in the battle of the Red Ring. Breton forces weren't mentioned.

In regards to the Hammerfell victory over the Thalmor, I must admit, it really makes no sense to me how that happened. I think everyone has been so quick to point it out, but really, it doesn't follow. The heart of the empire is defeated in battle while the "vassal" state pushes its invaders out? Hammerfell was supposedly the main point of the attack too. Why, then, would the Thalmor find themselves so outmatched after they managed to crush the Imperial Legions' main forces in Cyrodiil.

Cyrodiil are the tacticians of the army. Whilst certainly able to fight, their warriors can not match up to Nord or Redguard warriors in fair combat. The Dunmer are kinda in a bit of trouble after the Red Year, Valenwood I no longer hear of as being an Imperial state. In the current Empire, numerically Skyrim and Cyrodiil's military will be similar. Strength wise, Skyrim has the hardier warriors. Tactic wise, Cyrodiil has the better tacticians. From there you have High Rock, the mages of the Empire. In its optimal state at present time, presuming Hammerfell, Skyrim and Valenwood rejoined with them (Morrowind being in a bit of trouble ATM and requiring assistance more than being able to give it), Hammerfell and Skyrim's warriors would Numerically approx equal Cyrodiil and Valenwood. Individual combatants, Redguard and Nord are stronger. The main combat force of the Empire is Hammerfell and Skyrim.
If problems in Morrowind were to be solved, that would rebalance everything so that Hammerfell and Skyrim alone were no longer the bulk of the Imperial military. As is, all able Imperial states together, they would be.
Hammerfell's warriors led by Veteran Legionnaires is a perfect match up. The great warriors of Hammerfell with Cyrodiilic strategists. In combat however, the Hammerfell warriors would be more effective than the Cyrodiilic ones. I mean, curved swords man. Curved Swords! P)

Well, that's not really fair. The Imperials actually made up the Emperor's elite personal legion, so it seems that they're definitely suited for battle, though they may not match up perfectly. The Dunmer are in a tough way, as I've noted, but had such intense historical Imperial leanings (and hatred of the High Elves) that I wouldn't count them 100% out. Valenwood isn't an Imperial territory anymore, it was captured by the Thalmor, but it too has intense Imperial leanings, and a great hatred of the Thalmor (who commit mass murders there, according to some Bosmer). I'd imagine that if a war heated up, the pro-Imperial Bosmer would cause so much trouble to the Thalmor, that they would tie up a significant chunk of the Aldemeri forces.

Ultimately it comes down to the question, once again, of whether the Empire or the Free Territories would be better able to handle the Thalmor threat. My personal belief is that the Empire, with Cyrodilic forces helping, would be more powerful than the Free Territories, which would be sans-Cyrodiil.

Here's the thing, it works both ways.
Skyrim breaks away, it shows that it and the other Vassal Empire states don't need the Empire to be strong, and they will unite under that same 'Anti-Thalmor' ideal.
Cyrodiil, would have two choices.
1. Admit they are ready to go to war and join up with their allies
2. Admit they are too screwed over by the Thalmor presently and surrender.

Which do you think the great Generals would choose? Complete Thalmor occupation, or their allies? All that changes is that war is declared there and then instead of later. Either way, for a surprise attack to work, all Thalmor would need to be kicked out of Mainland Tamriel anyway, so they don't catch the armies leaving on boats and don't get intel on exact locations they will land. As such, no matter what happens, the Thalmor will be aware of the surprise attack. All that this is is a vote of confidence: Is the Empire able to handle the Thalmor, or are they willing to slip further into their grasp whilst preparing. If handled correctly, I feel a surprise attack soon against the Thalmor would be more effective than one that happens later once they have a firmer hold on the mainland.
What this shows is that the Empire is not afraid of the Thalmor, and believes itself strong enough to go to war.
The Thalmor are doing everything they can to stop unity on mainland Tamriel (As implied by Ulfric's dossier). What better way to instantly unite all the sides than give them one large common enemy? You could slowly waste your troops fighting wars to unite each state individually, but the Thalmor will be interfering wherever they can. Giving everyone a reason to unite is a far better method.

My belief is that after a major loss in Skyrim, the leader of the legions there dead, and Imperial forces in full retreat, the Cyrodilic forces would ultimately buckle, much like the Valenwood government did. Sure the Generals may not like it, but when morale has dropped, the Empire looks like its dead, and an enemy that has already once defeated you on the march, there's very little they can do. Without a group of men who are willing to go die in battle for the Empire, they will quickly be re-defeated, and I tend to think that a Vichy-style government is the only future for a defeated Empire. They would become puppets of the Thalmor, and would ultimately be pushed completely from the war.

I keep looking at the Great War, and I can't help but notice the historic implications. Frankly, the name alone suggests a World War I allegory, with Cyrodiil filling the role of France. I'm not saying that that's an absolute by any means, but there are some interesting parallels.

When you look at other Jarls though, there are those that are competent with competent advisors. Unfortunately those are either not liked by the people (Morthal as an example), or with the current loyalty of only half the Jarls (Ulfric. Whatever can be said, he is a competent leader, and his advisors are also competent). Elisif is one of the worst choices for High Queen, yet she is almost assured the title out of sympathy for her dead husband. Whilst liked by her people, she acts like spoilt brat at time, and at other times is too focused on her grief to properly make decisions. When you look at Falkreath, its old Jarl was asked to step down so that another could take the place. The excuse that was used was that he was becoming incompetent, when really it was just that he supported the Stormcloaks. If incompetence is reason enough to step down a Jarl, why has it not been done to Elisif?
Having advisors run the country for her is all well and good, but get to meetings with other nations, would an incompetent leader constantly being corrected by her advisors come across as anything but easy to manipulate and foolish?

I don't think it's quite fair to attack Elisif for what really amounts to inexperience. Elisif, at the beginning of the war, is in mourning, dealing with a major civil war. She's young and doesn't have the experience of the older Jarls, but she is genuinely working to educate herself, and by the end of the Civil War, she does seem like a much more experienced leader. She's getting a trial by fire, and she's doing an admirable job, all things considered. I don't deny that Ulfric is probably more experienced, but by the end of the Stormcloak questline, I felt like he was a lot more power hungry than I liked, and I refused to stand with him at the end. The murder of Tullius was just more than I felt was necessary.

They managed to get the Information on where Esbern was through torture. There is evidence that it provides good information.

Well...that's one time, and really it doesn't seem (when you come upon the Thalmor as they're torturing the man) that all the information or even a lot was garnered through the torture. Sure it works sometimes, but its just as likely not to.

The reason it was useless was that by that time they had already captured the Imperial City. Ulfric seems the kind to hold out more than most. An Imperial Officer or General may do similar, but at the moment the Thalmor have all the time in the world.

Not really, their enemies are just waiting to strike.

It is, it just takes time with some targets. Get a politician not suited to military life, they'll talk quickly. Get a seasoned soldier, they'll talk later. How long have the Thalmor had to interrogate soldiers? How much longer will they be able to interrogate them?
A faster solution is better here, and that is what Stormcloak victory offers.

I disagree. Jumping before they're ready will mean that they go directly from one war to another without a single breath. Thalmor forces have been rebuilding for thirty years, but Skyrim forces would be severely depleted after the battles to unite the country. That weighs in favor of the Thalmor, and I doubt they'll lose in Hammerfell a second time, certainly not without doing a huge amount of damage first.

Of course he is not indispensable. Nobody in Tamriel is, except the Dragonborn until Alduin is defeated. Ulfric does, however, present the best leadership in Skyrim (IMO). He is a competent leader by himself, and he has competent advisors whom he does listen to, and takes their opinions with a grain of salt.
Also, his major victories in the Skyrim Civil War were down to the Dragonborn. His Victory in Markarth over the Reach Natives was his own doing (Though it sounds as if the whole attack was manipulated by the Thalmor, I doubt they were personally there to carry it out).

I'm not so sure. Ulfric is a good leader, but his thirst for power is very unsettling. I stood by him through the entire war, and I just felt that afterwards I had made a mistake. He's power hungry, which is not what we need in a leader. Elisif is not incompetent, though she is highly inexperienced. That said, ultimately the choice is between Tullius and Ulfric, and my money stays with the General. I've said a couple times that he seems very much to be a Talos allegory, and I think that is somewhat intentional. His emperor is murdered while he fights in the North. I expect him to come back to the Empire and lead as the next Emperor, or perhaps as the Emperor's right hand. He's a competent and experienced leader who can more than make up for Elisif's inexperience, and while Elisif may not make a great Queen now, I see a lot of potential in her.

I am talking about the events of the Red Year, where Vivec disappeared after than Oblivion Crisis, leaving the Ministry of Truth unstable. A machine was made to keep the Ministry aloft, powered by a living soul. The lover of the soul that volunteered to power the machine shut of the machine to 'save' her. This resulted in the Ministry crashing into Vivec city, causing Red Mountain to erupt and making vast stretches of Morrowind uninhabitable. This, combined with the Argonian attack from the South, caused many Dumner to flee Morrowind entirely and go to the island of Solstheim in the North West.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Morrowind

Yes, but the reason that Vivec disappeared was because the Nerevarine destroyed the heart of Lorkhan, and he lost his divine spark. The machine was really an "aftermath" type scenario, to deal with the problem caused by the Nerevarine. Regardless, my point is that the Dunmer didn't really "ask" for their problem, and I have a hard time attributing it to them in blame.
Last paragraph if you want a source.

It is more to those who use Racism as a bad point for the Stormcloaks. If they take over and Ulfric is crowned High King, Solitude and Windhelm may become Racist, but the rest of Skyrim is more likely to stay as is (Possible exception Whiterun).

I certainly don't see the Stormcloaks as badly as some on this forum, I just have my doubts about Ulfric's cause. I'm not convinced he's in it for Skyrim and not just himself.

To say there is no chance of anyone else being picked is wrong. There is a low chance of anyone else being picked, however Ulfic does have those, even within the Stormcloak Holds, that do not agree with him. It is highly likely that Ulfric will become king, but not certain (Hell, I wouldn't put it beyond Bethesda to have him lose the election simply to make it an easier tie in in the next game, with one of the other Jarls being elected by the Moot so that they don't have to say that either Ulfric won (By him being crowned king) nor that he lost).
Also, no matter his reasons, Ulfric does care about Nord tradition. Whether it is because cries of legitimacy may surface later, and the whole point of his campaign and going against that now would paint him in a negative light, or whether he actually does deeply feel for Nord traditions, he does care.

I have my doubts that anyone could be picked other than Ulfric. Once the Stormcloaks win, there's little question that the moot is just a formality. Ulfric is High King in everything but name by that point. I would be genuinely surprised if Ulfric weren't elected after the events of the civil war. That said, I do agree that he cares about appearances, I just don't think it's for as noble a reason, and that does matter.

This is the same way the Empire are an asset to them, by killing their own citizens. High Rock was allowed to secede, why not let Skyrim do so too? It would save both of their soldiers to fight the Thalmor. Both sides, however, decided to fight each other, thereby both helping the Thalmor.
And now we have an interesting question; Just how much influence do the Thalmor have over the Empire?
You say that they would not be gearing up for another war if the Thalmor had a great grasp on them, but what about the Thalmor letting them prepare so that they can crush their 'surprise' attack with an ambush.
There are two ways that the Empire can be at the moment. Any 'happy medium' is just a lesser extent in one of those ways.
1. Prepared to fight the Thalmor.
If this is true, then they should not be fighting the Nords, they should tell them 'We will give you Talos worship and your traditions, if you help us fight those that took them from you'. This would drop a lot of Ulfric's support straight up, and get Skyrim ready to fight the Thalmor. From there, they could send a similar message to Hammerfell, and get High Rock to ship out with them too. Get Vvardenfell, and march out. As is, they can't even fix a civil war in Skyrim, let alone launch an invasion.
2. They are not prepared to fight the Thalmor.
This gives the Thalmor an advantage over them, and allows them into the Empire to take its secrets and spread dissent. If the Empire is not ready to fight, it is within the Thalmor's grasp. No matter how much they are 'gearing up', unless they have kicked the Thalmor out and are prepared to fight there and then, the Thalmor are in control of the Empire to some extent.

High Rock was not allowed to secede. The Imperials are dead set against allowing the Septim Empire to die, and for good reason. They could set aside the war until later, but doing so generally ends with the rebel faction being able to get into a position of power that topples the government at some point anyway. See Communist China for an example of that. Ulfric is as much a threat to the Empire as the Thalmor are, but his threat is more drastic, and so must be tackled immediately. It wasn't like the Empire all of a sudden started cracking down on the Stormcloaks, the Stormcloaks made their move. Ulfric killed the High King (whether legitimately or not, it makes no difference) which set off this chain of events. As for how much influence the Thalmor have currently, I'd say that they have enough to cause the Empire to be forced to do what they want in name and word, but not so much to keep the Empire from trying to resist their influence.

1. Lets say for a moment that they ARE ready to attack the Thalmor. That means that the Imperials will have rebuilt as many as five Legions, not counting the IV Legion which is the one stationed in Skyrim and fighting the Civil War. That also means rebuilding the cities that were captured or damaged. If all that is true, then the Imperials are in a much better position than anyone is led to believe, which means that they can probably afford to sacrifice a legion in keeping Skyrim under control.

2. This is where we'll disagree, because just because the Empire is not ready now to deal with the Thalmor, doesn't mean they won't be soon. Not being ready to fight the Thalmor doesn't mean being so weak that the Thalmor control them like a Vichy government, it means not having the man or industrial power to successfully fight a war with the Thalmor. Ultimately the legion DOES still have power, they aren't completely cowed to the Aldemeri Dominion, but for now they don't have the ability to successfully fight the armies of the High Elves again.

Once Skyrim wins, they end the Empire's wait to attack. Cyrodiil would be stupid not to rejoin with its rebelling Vassal states, especially if they went to fight the Thalmor. Whichever side wins, the continent will join together against the Thalmor. All that who wins decides is how soon they march out. Skyrim's victory will spell instant war with the Thalmor. Imperial Victory spells more time for the Thalmor to prepare.
Unfortunately, Morrowind is mostly out of the question thanks to the Argonians and the Red Year. Cyroiilic Diplomats might be able to get them to co-operate with Black Marsh for an attack, but Morrowind itself lies largely in ruins, and would be unlikely to accept to fight the Thalmor thanks to their Argonian problem, and unlikely to join the Empire if the Argonians were given a place and not forced to give the land back. There is a bit of Diplomacy to be done there before that will work, but that could hopefully be done in the time it takes to drive the Thalmor off the mainland. If not, it is unlikely the two sides would agree to stop fighting.

Cyrodiil would be coming off a major loss of one of the stalwart parts of their empire. Their troops would be demoralized, and their government would quickly lose legitimacy. The Thalmor have already shown a propensity to be able to topple a government (see Valenwood), and I would not at all be surprised if they were to topple the Imperial government and replace it with a puppet. Sure Cyrodiil and the Imperials will still cause trouble with the resistance forces, but their puppet government will also send some troops to help the Aldemeri forces against their former vassals. It's exactly what happened to France during World War II. After France fell to Germany, the Vichy government sent French forces to oppose the Allied advances in Africa.

With Morrowind, the key is whether its the Empire or the Free nations fighting the Thalmor. The Dunmer have both a disdain of the Altmer, and historic Imperial leanings due to Barenziah. Ultimately Black Marsh is generally on the side of the Aldemeri Dominion, having broken away from the Empire at the same time as Elswyr, but are fairly wrapped up in Morrowind, so they'd be of little help to the Thalmor advance. The Dark Elves, on the other hand, might put together a token force to help the Imperials, assuming that its the Empire that's fighting, rather than Skyrim, (ostensibly) Cyrodiil, and Hammerfell. As I said earlier, though, I doubt the "Free Nations" would include Cyrodiil in the fight.

True, but you have evidence. Whilst not enough to convict someone, it is certainly enough to warrant an arrest - all the Redguards are doing. After that, in Hammerfell, all evidence will be bought forward to justify whatever punishment they decide. All that is there for us to decide is; 'Are the Redguards the 'police' in this case, or the 'gang''.
If I were a juror debating the woman's fate, I would have the evidence of her crimes bought forward.

In this case, though, with the question being "Are the Redguards the 'police' or the 'gang'?" my instinct is to err on the side of caution and let a guilty woman go free, rather than arresting an innocent woman and handing her over to a gang of marauders. Despite everything, there's no official seal, no proof they are governmental, and no proof that they won't just kill her once they're out of sight.

On another note, I've looked up the quest in question, and while I don't remember one way or the other, the wiki describes her as admitting to "speaking out against the government" rather than "speaking out against the Thalmor." If that's the case, her story actually gains a fair amount of credibility.

Stop right there. Why is the woman IN Skyrim? If she is a princess, why is she not with her personal guard in her palace? In fact, where even is her personal guard?
Even if you can come up with a reason for her being in Skyrim, why not flee to Hammerfell? She knows where the Redguard are, she has avoided them thus far, why not make a break to Hammerfell, or send a messenger asking for assistance. She knows she'll get none.

According to the above, she even admits that she spoke out against the government. That means that despite whatever status she had, the wartime government probably would've stripped her of that and summoned her for her execution, to keep dissidence from spreading. I don't know if she specifies what exactly she was speaking out against. Knowing that the government would kill her for speaking out, she fled to Skyrim to live out her days in peace, then the Redguard send a group after her.

Yet we still have the problem of why Redguard are working for the Thalmor. Mercenaries or no, I doubt a Redguard would accept to kill/capture a member of a royal Redguard family for their greatest enemy. It would be like an Imperial soldier coming up to a Stormcloak and asking them to kill/capture Ulfric's advisor. The answer would be no.

Well, according to the above, that theory has the obvious problem of not making sense. That being said, just to humor the situation, I'd like to point out the flaw in your comment here. You make the statement that no Redguard would sell out to the Thalmor and do their bidding. Historically, though, there have been MANY cases where a group has sold out for large sums of money and handed over a key person or official. You cannot tell me that NO Redguard would do so. Sure, the general populace probably wouldn't, but many times through out history a traitor or defector has caused a shift in the balance of power. It happened to both the KGB and CIA during the Cold War, it happened in France during World War II, it even happened to the Americans during the Revolution (though Benedict Arnold did not do what he did for money).

They were thrown out of the city, pretty good reason why they couldn't ask the Jarl. Yes, that was due to them doing some other stuff whilst looking for the woman, but they no longer have the ability to ask the Jarl to help them find the woman. Would it have been smarter to ask the Jarl straight up? Yep. Would this be a matter they would rather keep quiet (A princess selling them out to the Thalmor). Quite likely. Could they be certain the Jarl would even listen to them? No. Why did the woman not go see the Jarl?

Again, hold on here. Why would they want to keep a traitor's deeds quiet? Historically, finding a traitor and publicly executing them has been one of the best ways to rally a group, and I doubt that Jarl Balgruuf has any love for the Thalmor. He wouldn't hide her, he'd be likely to hand her over. The fact that these Mercenaries completely shirked the lawful government, and took matters into their own hands (causing other trouble along the way) is what makes me so skeptical of their story. They had the chance to work with the government. Instead they hire some random guy off the street who has absolutely no credentials (I did the mission fairly early in my game, while I was just "that dude who saw a dragon" which doesn't really make for great credentials).

I highly doubt they stabbed her in the Wilds. This comes from a comment made if you let them capture her, then kill her. They say 'You come all this way then just kill her?'. They want her alive. Whether this is for Thalmor torture (I find Redguard working for Thalmor unlikely), or for a trial in Hammerfell (Judging by circumstances and the individual parties in the conflict I find this more likely) is uncertain, but it is very likely that the woman is a traitor, whilst there is only speculation that the mercs may be working for the Thalmor. A semi-grey decision that can be made with some evidence to provide a more likely good side. When you look at each of the characters and their stories, the Princesses one is filled with flaws, the Mercenaries has few if any.

The problem with this is that the despite any light that we shine on it, this mission is distinctly shrouded with not enough facts. Sure you can discern a great deal, but ultimately all you have is one guy's word against another guy's word (or woman's word in this case). For some reason, at the time, I found that to be enough evidence to hand the woman over, but looking back on it, I don't. When there is not enough evidence, my sympathies will generally lie with the accused, rather than the accuser.

 

[Justanewguy]

Clearly the Aldmeri Dominion, as the vanguard of the chosen race.

Heute, Tamriel!
Morgens die Nirn!

Joccaren, I suggest we put our differences aside and beat this guy senseless.

 

[carpathic]

Well, I am figuring it is the elves. That is why I have been killing every single one I come across. (OUtside of towns, I am not buff enough yet to take on the city guards). Once I am more powerful, it will be all elves - especially high elves.

They have it coming.

TALOS!!

(for the record, I am playing an argonian. Could there be a better dragon born than someone who already looks like one?)

 

[tHehighelfmage]

Oh, and Ulfric needs to quickly and quietly ally himself with the Dark Brotherhood. Give safe passage, safehouses and resources to the Brotherhood across Skyrim and in return gain the ability to ensure the quick and silent death of any Thalmor supporter, Imperial supporter or other weaklings that could sprout in Skyrim.

...with organization of five or six people that were silent killed in their own lair by 19th level stealthy archer-blacksmith ?????????????

Tsk tsk tsk... I'm talking of the organization that faced the fires of corruption and was forged anew into the Dread Father's most fearsome servants. Lead by a new Dunmer Listener, loyal to the Night Mother and Dread Father, feared throughout the lands... and the ones who ended the life of the pathetic excuse for an Emperor.

Pretty words and pompous titles won't change reality - as every other organization in Skyrim, Dark Brotherhood is a joke, shadow of itself, riding on the mighty steed of half true legends and former glory. It was only fear, incompetency and corruption of law that allowed them to remain pretenders to title of night masters.

In the end, they all are dead lying in the pools of their blood no different than blood of your typical Joe the Plumber, ahem, Sven the Disposer of True Nordic Excrements.

Very true, the dark brotherhood is pathetic now, no one remembers their great heists of Cyrodiil and they are just living in the remains of the fear they once spread.

The thieves guild are just a shadow of their Cyrodiil counterparts (200 years ago) operating in the sewers of Riften.

The Empire is weaker than ever, they have lost all their pride, making cowardly agreements with the enemy.

The Blades, well an innkeeper in disguise and an old man can't do much can they?

The stormcloaks, a bunch of proud Nords being led to their inevitable dominion doom by an awfully loud son of a ***** with a cloak.

As for the grey beards, A bunch of cowards who sit on a mountain in silence all day out of sheer fear that the dovahkin will get tired of being mentored and FUS DO RA their asses of a cliff.

The thalmor, are disapointing (not in power but in character) I have always liked playing as a High Elf, my 'unique feature' would be my wisdom in the arcane arts and being the first to rule over lands. Skyrim is great but I get a sense of 'High Elves are evil, controlling bastards from it and I dont think any particular race should get that.

Edit: Also might I add wood elves and dark elves have their own reasons to hate the high elves, and while they also have not seen eye to eye with cyrodiil at any stretch in the past. Hammerfell, well redguards are skilled warriors, they should realise the best outcome will be to unite as much of tamriel as possible, put them under Imperial command, an flat out charge the Thalmor. Keep them away. By this point, with luck the dark elves and argoinians will very grudgingly settle their differences as will the Wood elves and the Kajiit, and the previous with the argonians. Thrash the Thalmor if they even come near the mainland. Thalmor will be crushed of morale and eventualy fade. Conflicting nations will later clash leaving a united Empire of Cyrodiil, Skyrim, Hammerfell and High rock. Possibly including Valenwood (under their own governing body of course) and Morrowind (with rebelion.) Then the Kajiit might consider joining for the overall profit gains of free trade between provinces (I'm not saying drugs or anything...) Argonians will be scared shitless because the remaining Thalmor will see an opportunity to regain the one independent part of mainland. They will run to the Empire, Thalmor will surrender for good and the Sommerset isles will be taken down a notch. Morrowind rebelions will be thrarted. I can prance around being a high elf without everyone hating because of the arrogance in most NPC high elves that I also find annoying.

This is the only way peace can be restored. And while it's unlikely I hope it happens so that in the future ( Elder scrolls IX) I can roam the whole of Tamriel.

Solution 2 (Storm cloak)

Skyrim becomes independent, which means hammerfell wont join the Empire, which means we are fucked.

I think that makes logical sence, right? Please reply if you see a flaw. I'm genuinly interested.

 

[Amishdemon]

The stormcloaks remind me of the american revolution. They want to break away from a (atleast in their eyes) oppressive empire. They way they treat the elves in the grey distract relates the way we treated the native Indians.

 

[lacktheknack]

I'm doing my darndest to avoid both. I'm on Team Mr. Mochi.

 

[Lucane]

A simular quest comes to mind, finding the missiing woman in whiterun, she claims to be on the run from assassins, they claim she's a traitor, there isnt any definable proof either way, i guess if you have enough time you could create two diametricly opposed characters and join both factions?

I felt the people coming after Sadiaa were the lairs because they are paying bandits for a hideout in order to find her if she was really a theft bad person as they say wouldn't they want to try going through proper channels with the town guard?