Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?

[ViaGalactica]

Women are portrayed as better than men in every media you can think of. Think about it, how many times has a man been portrayed as competent in any aspect from making coffee to making love in commercials, tv shows or most movies? None.

Dude, are you being hyperbolic or... are you really just that dense?

In most media, MEN are portrayed at being awesome and cool and badass while the women are the tag along extras who are only there to serve as a love interest.

And if you are talking about sitcoms where the man can't cook so he will run into some uber cute shenanigans in his attempt to cook because his wife is not home, yeah, no. That's a perfect example of gender roles being perpetuated in media because in those sitcoms the Man has a career and the Woman is a housewife. He gets to be funny and charming while the Wife is the uptight ***** who will spoil his fun. Come on, man.

Men are almost always positively portrayed in media -- unless they are a character that's meant to be disliked. Women on the other hand...

 

[Thaluikhain]

Plus, how many male game protagonists are glasses-wearing, unattractive, overweight nerds? Male characters are just as idealized in games as females. But I don't hear anyone griping over Kratos' eight-pack.

You don't tend to see people lusting after male characters, they aren't idealised in the same way.

Personally, I'm generally of the opinion if members of a minority group claim that something is offensive to them, they are more likely on this issue to be correct than people not in the group telling them they are wrong and should put up with it.

And if you are talking about sitcoms where the man can't cook so he will run into some uber cute shenanigans in his attempt to cook because his wife is not home, yeah, no. That's a perfect example of gender roles being perpetuated in media because in those sitcoms the Man has a career and the Woman is a housewife. He gets to be funny and charming while the Wife is the uptight ***** who will spoil his fun. Come on, man.

Not exactly. To me it always seemed that the man gets to be a pampered child who doesn't have to grow up, while the wife doubles as a mother. The people who write those things seem to think the male audience wishes they were 12 again, and had a mother-surrogate to have sex with.

 

[Evidencebased]

People are not against feminism in gaming. They are against feminists full stop.
Because femnazis dont understand the difference between humour and a attack against women.
Duke Nukem goes from this obvious self parody and gets turned into this evil propaganda game thats designed to make men treat women like property.
Besides, games are cheaper than your girlfriend. What is wrong with stating a fact?

Oh and white males are the core audience so it would be stupid to not make games with them in mind.
Besides, women get their panties in a twist over damn near every female character that is hotter than they will ever be. How many times you heard a dude ***** because the male protagonist is a walking slab of muscle instead of a glasses wearing, unkempt, cheeto covered, fat bastard?

In short. Males have to deal with bullshit in games too. We just whine less.

I keep hearing about these eeevil humorless feminists who go around attacking people, but I've never met one. However I've certainly seen a lot of people get butthurt when their favorite mindless entertainment is held to a higher standard or they're asked to think about something from another perspective. Perhaps you're mistaking intellectual debates and growth of the industry for "attacks" on it? Feminists certainly aren't the only ones who want to move gaming out of the dark ages of pandering to 13-year-old boys. You can't take every criticism of the medium as being some eeevil feminist trying to steal your masculinity fun! It's how media improve themselves, with discussion and critique.

(And isn't it interesting that the guys who complain about feminists always seem to follow that up with phrases like "feminazis" and "women get their panties in a twist over damn near every female character that is hotter than they will ever be" and then call women whiners? So making a comment about a game is basically genocidal and vain, huh? Almost makes you think that the mythical eeeevil feminists they've apparently had accuse them of misogyny had a point...)

 

[Gunner_Guardian]

If I'm reading this right, you are complaining about random people on the internet... some of which may be trolls and assume everyone has the same opinion.

As pointed out there are a number of discussing about video games and the female audience on this very site like extra credits (seriously look at their video about video games and the female audience on youtube). Although I'll admit they'll avoid the word feminism, that word has a lot of negative connotation due to some crazy theories proposed by radical feminists that I dislike.

In both senses vocale minorities ruin stuff for the rest of us.

 

[conflictofinterests]

Women are portrayed as better than men in every media you can think of. Think about it, how many times has a man been portrayed as competent in any aspect from making coffee to making love in commercials, tv shows or most movies? None.

Dude, are you being hyperbolic or... are you really just that dense?

In most media, MEN are portrayed at being awesome and cool and badass while the women are the tag along extras who are only there to serve as a love interest.

And if you are talking about sitcoms where the man can't cook so he will run into some uber cute shenanigans in his attempt to cook because his wife is not home, yeah, no. That's a perfect example of gender roles being perpetuated in media because in those sitcoms the Man has a career and the Woman is a housewife. He gets to be funny and charming while the Wife is the uptight ***** who will spoil his fun. Come on, man.

Men are almost always positively portrayed in media -- unless they are a character that's meant to be disliked. Women on the other hand...

Overall, men also tend to have more fully realized characters, unless you're talking about romantic comedies, which are predominantly chick bait.

 

[iLikeHippos]

Because, frankly, women hate potential threats. "Ohhh, look at that rack... BURN IT!"
And men don't give a shit in general if they play a muscle-man with a dick the size of his arm, if that is of any relevance. (I've yet to meet one, anyways) Might even find themselves comfortable with it.

Eeeehhh... Enough jokes.

Honestly, I don't know just how many complaints there have been on games, even less on sexism.
But what I do know is that some people will blow their top off for anything and over-react; even from the most obvious of jokes. Though, maybe these jokes were crafted to create controversy and thus give them free advertisement on the news and to anyone who actually want to hear the bitching and moans so sales and reputation will indeed increase.

It's a rather brilliant marketing strategy, ain't it? And in the end, these people just want to make a buck and have fun. Not deliberately demean anyone. LIKE ME! *Cough*
But, the self-same people who can't take a joke won't realize this, and... There's your problem, OP. From my standpoint, at least.

 

[conflictofinterests]

People are not against feminism in gaming. They are against feminists full stop.
Because femnazis dont understand the difference between humour and a attack against women.
Duke Nukem goes from this obvious self parody and gets turned into this evil propaganda game thats designed to make men treat women like property.
Besides, games are cheaper than your girlfriend. What is wrong with stating a fact?

Oh and white males are the core audience so it would be stupid to not make games with them in mind.
Besides, women get their panties in a twist over damn near every female character that is hotter than they will ever be. How many times you heard a dude ***** because the male protagonist is a walking slab of muscle instead of a glasses wearing, unkempt, cheeto covered, fat bastard?

In short. Males have to deal with bullshit in games too. We just whine less.

I keep hearing about these eeevil humorless feminists who go around attacking people, but I've never met one. However I've certainly seen a lot of people get butthurt when their favorite mindless entertainment is held to a higher standard or they're asked to think about something from another perspective. Perhaps you're mistaking intellectual debates and growth of the industry for "attacks" on it? Feminists certainly aren't the only ones who want to move gaming out of the dark ages of pandering to 13-year-old boys. You can't take every criticism of the medium as being some eeevil feminist trying to steal your masculinity fun! It's how media improve themselves, with discussion and critique.

(And isn't it interesting that the guys who complain about feminists always seem to follow that up with phrases like "feminazis" and "women get their panties in a twist over damn near every female character that is hotter than they will ever be" and then call women whiners? So making a comment about a game is basically genocidal and vain, huh? Almost makes you think that the mythical eeeevil feminists they've apparently had accuse them of misogyny had a point...)

I've seen a few posts in blogs by women who insist that men are an inferior gender, that all heterosexual sex is rape, etc. They don't tend to be gamers, though. At least, I haven't seen any of them on gaming forums. For the most part, there isn't too much of a gender gap in gamers. We're a pretty homogeneous bunch, except where it comes to how women (or really any other minority) ought to be portrayed in games.

EDIT: Also in how women are treated when they are recognized as such in certain multiplayer games. Fair large gap there.

 

[aks100]

Hm, ok thanks. Thanks in particular to the guys who actually tried to explain instead of rant. As I said I was given something to write and I just wanted to understand why. Some of the reactions though have given me a lot to think about in terms of how the whole issue is perceived.

First off, Extra Credits has touched on this subject, as well as the recent girls on female characters panel from pax, so check them out if you haven't allready. I am not exactly sure by what you mean with your thread title with feminism in gaming.

I'll go and check the extra credits thing out. I think I have already seen it though. as for the feminism thing. I put it in '' because I dont really consider it feminism, I consider it more as..I suppose equality would be the right word. I don't see why a certain group of people should be put down for some reason or another. Other people though would consider this kind of complaint feminist.

 

[mjc0961]

Because feminism is just the opposite end of the scale from what we have now. Instead of it being all about guys and whatnot, feminism means it gets to be all about women. No, fuck that. Equality I am fine with, and that should be what people want to get. Although I slightly prefer what we have now over feminism, just because every time I hear one of those sugary speeches from a woman about how she's a girl in a man's world and she's just as good as them and she's going to show them up and blah blah blah, it makes me want to gag. Nonsense about "Oh I'm a man I can't lose to a girl and blah blah blah" is stupid too, but I dislike the other one more simply because I've heard it so much more. Maybe if everyone focused less on what gender they are and more on the games they are making being great games, we wouldn't have this problem. Unless I'm hoping into bed with you, I don't care what's between your legs, so shut up about it and just make a great game.

For example, the recent gamestation advertising campaign saying their pre-owned games were cheaper than your girlfriend. When people complained that it was offensive the minority of gamers told them to shut up and get over it. So..why are people so against gaming becoming more gender neutral and accepting of female, child and elderly gamers.

That doesn't even have anything to do with gaming. That's advertising, which is full of bullshit too. If I see one more stupid commercial where some guy picks up some deodorant or body wash and is suddenly flooded with hot chicks hanging off of him, I'm going to go nuts. Hey advertisers, stop trying to insult my intelligence. I know your body wash isn't going to turn me into a babe magnet, so why don't you give me a real reason as to why I should buy your product?

 

[ViaGalactica]

People are not against feminism in gaming. They are against feminists full stop.
Because femnazis dont understand the difference between humour and a attack against women.
Duke Nukem goes from this obvious self parody and gets turned into this evil propaganda game thats designed to make men treat women like property.
Besides, games are cheaper than your girlfriend. What is wrong with stating a fact?

Oh and white males are the core audience so it would be stupid to not make games with them in mind.
Besides, women get their panties in a twist over damn near every female character that is hotter than they will ever be. How many times you heard a dude ***** because the male protagonist is a walking slab of muscle instead of a glasses wearing, unkempt, cheeto covered, fat bastard?

In short. Males have to deal with bullshit in games too. We just whine less.

The fact that people are against feminism in general is a very, very sad fact.

The problem with that fact is, John, that it implies females are expensive. And, surely, you must know this, John, but women are not really property. See, unlike a video game, you can't really 'buy' a woman because, unless you are talking about a prostitute with a fee, they don't have a prize. We are not commodities, John, we cannot be bought.

Also, I find it hilarious how men think that the reason women don't like most female game characters is because they are hotter than us. Oh, you guys. I, personally, have never met someone who would ever feel insecure when compared to a fictional, 2D character. It's not the characters looks that bother us, John, nor is it the clothes -- or lack thereof -- that they wear. It's their personalities. Take Samara from Mass Effect 2, for example. Gorgeous face, great pair of breasts, amazing body, tight and revealing suit -- she's damn hot. And yet us, 'feminazis' do not complain about her. Want to know why? Because she is a well developed character. She has a personality. She is more than just a set of breasts to stare at. It doesn't matter if the characters are hotter, I like looking at hot characters, it's the empty personalities what annoy us.

And really, I know it's hard to be a male gamer. How can you stand living when most male video game characters are at least two of the following: smart, funny, brave, courageous, good-looking, strong, badass or determined. They are so unfair to you guys. So unfair.

 

[ViaGalactica]

Because feminism is just the opposite end of the scale from what we have now. Instead of it being all about guys and whatnot, feminism means it gets to be all about women.

No. Just, no.
Feminism is not about making it all about the women. It's about giving women the same opportunities that men have. This does not mean games should only be made about women who are hot and awesome and kick ass and amazing at everything. No, the only thing feminism wants and asks for is that, for every game made about a great male lead, there should be a game about a great female lead. (Hint: Great does not mean flawless.) Or, if that's going too far, to have in game a female character that is just as great as the male characters. (Hit: 'Just as great' does not mean 'good at everything they do', 'invincible' or so much better than the guys.)

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Seriously there are plenty of decent and good female characters out there in games and I don't see why a vocal minority should even come into play here. Anyway I just don't like feminism as it tend to want to create a matriarchal society instead of patriarchal which is just as wrong. Although there are proper feminists they aren't vocal about it and don't go around screaming it. Same reason why I don't call myself a Hardcore gamer even though by the proper terminology of the word I would be probably be considered one.

 

[draconiansundae]

You don't tend to see people lusting after male characters, they aren't idealised in the same way.

Personally, I'm generally of the opinion if members of a minority group claim that something is offensive to them, they are more likely on this issue to be correct than people not in the group telling them they are wrong and should put up with it.

I'm pretty sure that male characters in video games have their share of fangirls. I do see your point though, male characters aren't specifically designed to be sexy the same way many female characters are. But there is a middle ground here, i.e. say, Ivy from Soul Calibur versus Samus. Then again, I tend to stay away from games that have blatant disregard for realistic female proportions, like DOA. I don't think I'm missing much.

 

[draconiansundae]

Seriously there are plenty of decent and good female characters out there in games and I don't see why a vocal minority should even come into play here. Anyway I just don't like feminism as it tend to want to create a matriarchal society instead of patriarchal which is just as wrong. Although there are proper feminists they aren't vocal about it and don't go around screaming it. Same reason why I don't call myself a Hardcore gamer even though by the proper terminology of the word I would be probably be considered one.

There's a huge difference between seeking a equality versus seeking dominance. It's the minority of obnoxiously vocal "feminists" that think women are better than men that give the rest of us a bad rap and have turned the very term "feminism" into dirty word.

 

[hecticpicnic]

Hey,people are affair of change.They want it to say as it always is with one-dimensional characters (generally), all games have to be action based and aimed at 13 year old boys.
Not all games are like this i remember in fall-out 2 if you were a woman you could use your body to you advantage.But you could if you were a man too.

 

[conflictofinterests]

Seriously there are plenty of decent and good female characters out there in games and I don't see why a vocal minority should even come into play here. Anyway I just don't like feminism as it tend to want to create a matriarchal society instead of patriarchal which is just as wrong. Although there are proper feminists they aren't vocal about it and don't go around screaming it. Same reason why I don't call myself a Hardcore gamer even though by the proper terminology of the word I would be probably be considered one.

Meh. "Plenty" doesn't cover everything, and there are some otherwise good games that depict gender or minority status as the single, defining trait of a character, and that's rant bait and plain stupidity on the part of writers. I know there are some people who call themselves feminists that would much prefer a matriarchal society to anything else, but there are also people who call themselves feminists who just want not to be depicted as the dumb blond or the nondescript damsel in distress anymore.

EDIT: Or the otherwise useless eye candy/arm decoration.

 

[thecoreyhlltt]

This may have been discussed before but a search of the forums didn't bring up anything that I was looking for so...

I've been asked to write about sexism in gaming and I know it's a subject that has been done to death. I want to make it as fair an argument as possible. As a girl you can probably figure out which side of the debate I'm on but I do want to know why people are so vocal AGAINST people speaking up against sexist slogans in advertising and reinforcing white male gamer stereotypes.

For example, the recent gamestation advertising campaign saying their pre-owned games were cheaper than your girlfriend. When people complained that it was offensive the minority of gamers told them to shut up and get over it. So..why are people so against gaming becoming more gender neutral and accepting of female, child and elderly gamers.

I'm not slating it, I would just like to understand the mindset a bit better to at least try and make this piece of writing fairer.

i personally think the ad at the gamestation wasn't meant to be sexist, it's a joke. women need to lighten up for a sec and ask why guys would think certain ways about women in the first place. it's because we've met a woman who acts that way. just like how a lot of black activism groups would say that a particular black person does something and they say that person just set them back 250 yrs. if anybody has a problem with a female character(s) it's most likely not because they're against feminism, but they don't like the characters personality. unless you mean like people against females having stonger roles in gaming, then that is fucked up..... oh god, i better just stop now before i go on for hours about this.

 

[Thaluikhain]

The fact that people are against feminism in general is a very, very sad fact.

The problem with that fact is, John, that it implies females are expensive. And, surely, you must know this, John, but women are not really property. See, unlike a video game, you can't really 'buy' a woman because, unless you are talking about a prostitute with a fee, they don't have a prize. We are not commodities, John, we cannot be bought.

Also, I find it hilarious how men think that the reason women don't like most female game characters is because they are hotter than us. Oh, you guys. I, personally, have never met someone who would ever feel insecure when compared to a fictional, 2D character. It's not the characters looks that bother us, John, nor is it the clothes -- or lack thereof -- that they wear. It's their personalities. Take Samara from Mass Effect 2, for example. Gorgeous face, great pair of breasts, amazing body, tight and revealing suit -- she's damn hot. And yet us, 'feminazis' do not complain about her. Want to know why? Because she is a well developed character. She has a personality. She is more than just a set of breasts to stare at. It doesn't matter if the characters are hotter, I like looking at hot characters, it's the empty personalities what annoy us.

And really, I know it's hard to be a male gamer. How can you stand living when most male video game characters are at least two of the following: smart, funny, brave, courageous, good-looking, strong, badass or determined. They are so unfair to you guys. So unfair.

More or less what I'd wanted to say, only you're alot more eloquent.

 

[SwimmingRock]

People are not against feminism in gaming. They are against feminists full stop.
Because femnazis dont understand the difference between humour and a attack against women.
Duke Nukem goes from this obvious self parody and gets turned into this evil propaganda game thats designed to make men treat women like property.
Besides, games are cheaper than your girlfriend. What is wrong with stating a fact?

Oh and white males are the core audience so it would be stupid to not make games with them in mind.
Besides, women get their panties in a twist over damn near every female character that is hotter than they will ever be. How many times you heard a dude ***** because the male protagonist is a walking slab of muscle instead of a glasses wearing, unkempt, cheeto covered, fat bastard?

In short. Males have to deal with bullshit in games too. We just whine less.

Aside from the fact that I would have made a clearer distinction between peoples reactions to feminists and feminazis, which are an entirely different thing, this covers just about everything I wanted to say.

Similarly, a female friend of mine once accompanied me to my local comic store and complained about the depiction of the women on the cover of some random comic. I pointed out the men on the cover were shirtless examples of physical perfection and asked why that was not a problem for her. Only time I've ever known her to be speechless.

 

[ninjapenguin981]

Because when you bring old people children and girls into the gaming equation, you end up with a load of shovelware ie the wii.

Is this right? No, but heck, that's what developers think sells to those demographics.