Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?

[ViaGalactica]

The fact that people are against feminism in general is a very, very sad fact.

The problem with that fact is, John, that it implies females are expensive. And, surely, you must know this, John, but women are not really property. See, unlike a video game, you can't really 'buy' a woman because, unless you are talking about a prostitute with a fee, they don't have a prize. We are not commodities, John, we cannot be bought.

Also, I find it hilarious how men think that the reason women don't like most female game characters is because they are hotter than us. Oh, you guys. I, personally, have never met someone who would ever feel insecure when compared to a fictional, 2D character. It's not the characters looks that bother us, John, nor is it the clothes -- or lack thereof -- that they wear. It's their personalities. Take Samara from Mass Effect 2, for example. Gorgeous face, great pair of breasts, amazing body, tight and revealing suit -- she's damn hot. And yet us, 'feminazis' do not complain about her. Want to know why? Because she is a well developed character. She has a personality. She is more than just a set of breasts to stare at. It doesn't matter if the characters are hotter, I like looking at hot characters, it's the empty personalities what annoy us.

And really, I know it's hard to be a male gamer. How can you stand living when most male video game characters are at least two of the following: smart, funny, brave, courageous, good-looking, strong, badass or determined. They are so unfair to you guys. So unfair.

Women can not be bought?

Everyone has a price. They just do not usually make it official.
And yes, so you got to know Samara. Did you ever bother to read Ivys back story? Get to know her as a character? I bet not.
Most people make snap judgements about characters. They see Ivy, see her outfit so declare she is just a shallow sex icon. Unless someone drives home to you that character X is really filled out so you can not use them as a example then you will attack them just for being hot.

As for guys and girls in videogames, most of them tend to be at least two of those. You simply cherry pick who you look at because actually playing a game all the way through defeats your own argument.
And it still does not change the fact that as unrealistic as guys are in games, guys don't usually ***** about them and how they need to be changed.

Oh and quick side note. The whole "repeating someones name in conversation" thing does not lend any emotional weight to your argument. Especially when its not the persons real name.
It just comes off as tacky. Like a middle manager who read a book titled "How to make friends and influence people."

So, if everyone has a prize what's yours? How much should a woman pay you in order for you to have sex with her/date her/ marry her? Oh, wait, you meant every woman has a prize, not every man. Because, if we lived in a society where men and women were treated equally, pictures like the one you posted would not just show a girl spreading her legs for a ring, but a man doing it as well. But, nope, men cannot be materialistic, gold-digging bastards. It's only the dirty women.

You are right, I haven't read Ivy's backstory or list of personality traits, nor do I plan on doing it. And it's precisely because I have no knowledge about her -- besides the fact that she has giant breasts and a tiny outfit -- that I did NOT mention Ivy. As I said, characters can be the hottest of the hot, no one will care unless they are more than just something to look at.

And what you mean by ~unrealistic~ is not the same thing we mean by ~unrealistic~. A giant pair of breasts that just stand there, looking perfectly perky even when they have no support, is unrealistic, yes. But these are the kind of things that can be pushed aside so long as there is: a) a valid reason for someone wearing such little clothing -- sending a girl in a bikini to a war zone is the perfect example of this not done -- or b)a personality behind the cleavage. A realistic personality does not stand alone and away from unrealistic features. Hell, sometimes they can work just fine together.

How can men even complain about the male characters? The vast majority are pretty cool dudes, or in the case of shooters Generic White Male Number 78 who gets to kick some ass. Or, tell me, when have you seen a game that only includes men as eye-candy to be oggled?

And on a side note: I wasn't trying to add any emotional weight to anything. Shit, dude, I just like repeating shit. But, oh, okay.

 

[Agayek]

The fact that people are against feminism in general is a very, very sad fact.

The problem with that fact is, John, that it implies females are expensive. And, surely, you must know this, John, but women are not really property. See, unlike a video game, you can't really 'buy' a woman because, unless you are talking about a prostitute with a fee, they don't have a prize. We are not commodities, John, we cannot be bought.

Also, I find it hilarious how men think that the reason women don't like most female game characters is because they are hotter than us. Oh, you guys. I, personally, have never met someone who would ever feel insecure when compared to a fictional, 2D character. It's not the characters looks that bother us, John, nor is it the clothes -- or lack thereof -- that they wear. It's their personalities. Take Samara from Mass Effect 2, for example. Gorgeous face, great pair of breasts, amazing body, tight and revealing suit -- she's damn hot. And yet us, 'feminazis' do not complain about her. Want to know why? Because she is a well developed character. She has a personality. She is more than just a set of breasts to stare at. It doesn't matter if the characters are hotter, I like looking at hot characters, it's the empty personalities what annoy us.

And really, I know it's hard to be a male gamer. How can you stand living when most male video game characters are at least two of the following: smart, funny, brave, courageous, good-looking, strong, badass or determined. They are so unfair to you guys. So unfair.

Generally, when one has a girlfriend, they are expected to pay for at least a fair number of the dates. Ultimately, this will lead to a greater expense than a single video game.

Whether or not you agree that it should be this way, that is a fact. Having a girlfriend drastically increases the amount of money one spends in any given period. Thus, the ad is literally correct. Games are cheaper than one's girlfriend. The implication behind the ad is moderately annoying, but that doesn't change the facts.

And to be completely fair, the vast majority of all characters in gaming are vapid, empty and two-dimensional. Female characters certainly have a higher percentage of it, no real question there, but it's a small minority of characters of any sex that have any real depth.

 

[Hucket]

What I believe most people miscomstrue as feminism is the hardline second-wave feminist beliefs. They were the "feminazis" as one poster put it, focusing less on equality and more on sexual disrimintation (both fighting it and extolling it). The modern feminist movement is the third-wave, which is more about a female's individual freedoms.

All that being said, like in religion, the extremist ruin it for everyone. I would like to believe that not all feminists share the beliefs of the one nut jobs I've run into (one of these nut jobs being a prof I had). Video games reflect the society and the times they are made in. Do they have room for improvement on women's roles? Of course, however I don't really see anything that should raise a major alarm. There is a lack of female protagonists in games, but as far as I know, females still make up the minority of gamers. So developers are still going to create games for the majority of games (males). That is were they are going to make money.

 

[Hucket]

Oh and PS. the Gamestop ad is hilarious and only points out that over an extended period of time, a girlfriend will cost you more than a used game (actually several used games)

 

[BlumiereBleck]

Are you joking? Or not? If anything from this site we see nothing but children craving the feminism for possible women approval...but that last part is just a theory

 

[Evidencebased]

So, personally, I find the Capture the Babe minigame in Duke Nukem objectionable because the woman in it is being utterly useless. It might score some points back if player characters can elect to be women too. Still, a human being being effectively the ball in a sports game is kind of degrading in itself, no matter how you depict it. But whatevs, that shit is going to happen in a Duke Nukem game. It would be better if players could play as women.

Any other game and you may have a point. But this is Duke Nukem. You would have the developers destroy the entire theme of the game.
Duke who is such a self parody that every time he gives the girl a reassuring slap on the ass he may as well turn to the camera and drop a big wink.
Besides, you dont even get to play as other characters other than Duke. So throwing in a chick skin would be silly.
Oh and, Duke is just not made for women. Women will get to whine about Duke when I get to whine about Barbie games.

I keep hearing about these eeevil humorless feminists who go around attacking people, but I've never met one.

Ive never met a shark. Dont mean they dont exist. You have just been very, very lucky.
As for us growing as a medium. You would have us "grow" by removing entire categories of games? Games like Duke were never designed to advance the medium. They were designed to provide the player with fun. Destroying the franchise does nothing to advance gaming. It just stunts it.
Just as not every movie is some deep masterpiece gaming should not be aiming for that either. If we remove the fun and insist that everything has to be deep and compelling then we are gonna kill gaming as a whole.
Besides, I keep hearing about making games accepted... Accepted by who? Who are we trying to appeal to? People with no interest in videogames anyway?

Oh and side note. People refer to modern feminists as femnazis because feminism is over. Youre like 20 years too late.

The battle has been won, women are treated fairly these days. All that are left are the scavengers trying to pick clean every last crevice while declaring themselves feminists. Trying to claim some tiny little victory so they can inflate their own egos and all they are doing is insulting the women who came before them who actually struggled and fought to get where we are today.
And this is not even my opinion. This came from my employer who was a real feminist.

kor schnipp schnipp

Women can not be bought?

Everyone has a price. They just do not usually make it official.
And yes, so you got to know Samara. Did you ever bother to read Ivys back story? Get to know her as a character? I bet not.
Most people make snap judgements about characters. They see Ivy, see her outfit so declare she is just a shallow sex icon. Unless someone drives home to you that character X is really filled out so you can not use them as a example then you will attack them just for being hot.

As for guys and girls in videogames, most of them tend to be at least two of those. You simply cherry pick who you look at because actually playing a game all the way through defeats your own argument.
And it still does not change the fact that as unrealistic as guys are in games, guys don't usually ***** about them and how they need to be changed.

Oh and quick side note. The whole "repeating someones name in conversation" thing does not lend any emotional weight to your argument. Especially when its not the persons real name.
It just comes off as tacky. Like a middle manager who read a book titled "How to make friends and influence people."

And quick side note. Its the femnazis fault people are against feminism in general. As I said, feminism is pretty much over. So all the femnazis bringing up, quite frankly, petty issues over nothing, all they have done is tarnish feminism as a whole much as PETA has done for animal rights.
People will listen when there is a real, valid complaint. But these panty bunching exercises are seen for what they are and are dismissed as such.

Spoiler: Flame shield GOOOO!

Your entire argument seems to be "Yuh-HUH women are treated equally!" interspersed with "women are whores!" and a dose of "why do you complain about petty thingsyou whores?" Sooo... now I'm pretty sure you're either just trolling (which the flame shield would seem to suggest) or you're one of those not-so-closeted misogynists who honestly doesn't understand why saying that every woman can be bought (and illustrating that? classy) might be offensive. And then pretending anyone who is offended is just being a feminazi. Right. So calling an entire half of the population scavenging prostitutes with bunched panties is totally reasonable, but objecting to that in anyway makes a woman a nazi?

 

[TerraRey]

Besides, women get their panties in a twist over damn near every female character that is hotter than they will ever be. How many times you heard a dude ***** because the male protagonist is a walking slab of muscle instead of a glasses wearing, unkempt, cheeto covered, fat bastard?

I agree with that surprisingly. I don't get upset over every female character that is hotter than I will ever be, but I love them and HAVE to play them! I suppose this is also a form of sexism. I will usually only play female characters in games because I would rather look at a pretty person, and most guys in games actually don't look all that hot.

 

[TerraRey]

You should just learn to put up with it. I too am a female gamer, and I have learnt there's no point arguing. I hear both good and bad things. Just the other day a person in my game of Leauge of Legends was like 'Dude you have a girl, who plays video games, is good at them, and jungles a tank AND ganks?! Where have you been keeping her.' So I hear both good and bad from time to time. Especially bad when I'm with my brother and my usual group of friends. Quite often I'll hear things such as 'get back to the kitchen' and 'shut up woman' and stuff.

Male gamers are the stereotypes because most gamers are guys. Every gamer I actually know are gamers. The girls I know either don't like them, are aweful at them, or are into the usual 'sims' type games.

I honestly don't think it's that people are against gaming becoming more gender neutral. I just think that they honestly believe most women aren't gamers, or good at games. As do I. But that's speaking from my own experiance. Also it seems most other girls I know they would rather be talking about guys, reading magazines, partying, and doing make up. I know that also is stereotyping, but it's true.

Also I myself have been guilty of making sexist jokes in games. So that's probably a bigger reason I don't care. (Though on the rare occasion it DOES piss me off.

 

[BoredDragon]

If sexism or sexist comments are in a game its usually there as a satire. However, as for people not wanting to be gender neutral, I have no idea. I would love it if gaming became a little more mainstream and more girls started to play it. It would be cool to meet someone online wasn't a swearing 5-year-old or an egotistical douche-bag.

If I had to guess as why people are how you described, I would say they are afraid of change. Gaming has been a male-dominated practiced for a long time and anything that might change that could be seen as a threat to old-school gamers.

 

[ViaGalactica]

Generally, when one has a girlfriend, they are expected to pay for at least a fair number of the dates. Ultimately, this will lead to a greater expense than a single video game.

Whether or not you agree that it should be this way, that is a fact. Having a girlfriend drastically increases the amount of money one spends in any given period. Thus, the ad is literally correct. Games are cheaper than one's girlfriend. The implication behind the ad is moderately annoying, but that doesn't change the facts.

And to be completely fair, the vast majority of all characters in gaming are vapid, empty and two-dimensional. Female characters certainly have a higher percentage of it, no real question there, but it's a small minority of characters of any sex that have any real depth.

But when one gets a boyfriend, they are also expected to, at some point, hand down some cash. Girlfriends are not the only ones who are expensive. Boyfriends can be, too. But this is not a joke that you hear often. And that's what's annoying about the ad. I agree that it's not "CODE Black: Let shit hit the roof and the sirens ring" offensive, but it's still annoying.

And,I know. I agree with you on that. Most characters are bland and boring. It just sucks that, as a woman, you have fewer female characters to relate to, while the men can have a significantly bigger amount of cool dudes to relate to. It's just...annoying, I guess.

 

[Mullahgrrl]

People aren't against 'feminism in games' the only complaints Ive heard about it is in this thread and possibly on the best page in the universe and those guys are just being obnoxious louts because its fun, right?

 

[Klarinette]

There are too many pushy, over-the-top feminists who ruin it and perpetuate stereotypes.

Besides, women get their panties in a twist over damn near every female character that is hotter than they will ever be. How many times you heard a dude ***** because the male protagonist is a walking slab of muscle instead of a glasses wearing, unkempt, cheeto covered, fat bastard?

Good point. They'll complain that the girl looks skanky or something, even though she's probably totally kicking ass. And if she's not skanky, then she's objectifying herself (or is being objectified by men). Nah, man... she's not objectifying herself by wearing next to nothing... it just gets hot when you wield around a giant sword and kill hundreds of monster-type things. She's being practical, not skanky!

 

[TerraRey]

Oh! One last point, I jsut thought of. Sorry for the ranting. But if you look at 90% of games that DO have female characters in them, you will probably notice the same thing I did. (If not, then look at most MMOs) The female characters are worked on a LOT more than the male characters. The female characters usually look better, and have better animations and such. That alone is kind of a sexist thing, don't you think? So you could also be complaining about that, from a guys perspective at least.

 

[Nomanslander]

Because the majority of gamers are still 19 year old angsty women fearing adolescents.

 

[DuctTapeJedi]

Because historically, when equality reaches a community, the previously dominant groups are reluctant to have to share. It's not making guys inferior, it's treating women equally.

 

[Agayek]

No. Just, no.
Feminism is not about making it all about the women. It's about giving women the same opportunities that men have. This does not mean games should only be made about women who are hot and awesome and kick ass and amazing at everything. No, the only thing feminism wants and asks for is that, for every game made about a great male lead, there should be a game about a great female lead. (Hint: Great does not mean flawless.) Or, if that's going too far, to have in game a female character that is just as great as the male characters. (Hit: 'Just as great' does not mean 'good at everything they do', 'invincible' or so much better than the guys.)

Feminism carries with it the connotation that "Women are better". Is that true? I'm not sure. I've seen plenty of evidence to support both sides of the argument. All I can really say about that in particular is that it carries a stigma that it was associated with thanks to the hardcore feminazis who cannot accept anything less than godhood for having the good grace to be born with a vagina.

It's not terribly fair, but then again, life never is.

"Gears of War; Lasts longer than your boyfriend."

"Call of Duty; Dumber than your husband."

See? If those signs were hanging in a video game store, you can bet some men would be complaining about it. Sure, others would laugh, but if you're offended by it at all then guess what, the "Cheaper than your girlfriend!" sign is no better.

Sexism is wrong no matter who it is against, men or women. It does not make it okay, funny, or otherwise forgivable just because it's not focused on your sex.

In short though, it boils down to not wanting to go the extra mile to develop a female character if they don't have to. Why waste the energy and resources when she's intended to be there for eye candy purposes only? That's what women get pissed off about, not that we suddenly want all games to star females.

I'd laugh my ass off at those ads, in all honesty. It's so stupidly true, that there's really no recourse but to bust a gut.

PS - Being offended by anything that isn't a personal insult is the epitome of stupidity.

So, if everyone has a prize what's yours? How much should a woman pay you in order for you to have sex with her/date her/ marry her? Oh, wait, you meant every woman has a prize, not every man. Because, if we lived in a society where men and women were treated equally, pictures like the one you posted would not just show a girl spreading her legs for a ring, but a man doing it as well. But, nope, men cannot be materialistic, gold-digging bastards. It's only the dirty women.

Every single man I can think of would fuck and date a moderately attractive (and unattractive if the price is high enough) woman for a sufficient fee. Marriage is probably about half and half on the guys I can think of.

Quite literally, everyone has a price. It doesn't necessarily have to be fiscal, but you can get anyone to do anything if you offer them enough of an incentive.

 

[Dan Steele]

I dont mind girls in gameing. I love to play online with female gamers. It when they start bragging about being a female gamer and telling the boys not to hit on her when it gets on my nerves. I never respond with sexism.

Girl Gamers I am sorry for the retarded tacticts my bretherin insult and berate you with, know that they dont represent all of us. Just take keep in mind however, we dont care if your gay, straight, black, white, male or female, just do what gamers of all kinds are made to do: Play the game

 

[priestswearseatbelts]

When the feminist community becomes the equality community they will, probably, seem a lot more rational.... for a start.

The ratio of 'proper gamers' (.... by proper gamers I mean the one who play the games you want to see changes in... and not the ones that think the wii dance mats games, Mario kart and guitar hero (because it has a taylor swift song) are what gaming is about....) is 1 in 10, if that, not a 50/50 split. Catering to them would not make sense; financially. As much as we are fans of the artistic aspects of gaming the people at the, who make the decisions, are in it for money.

In fact many of the development house, and the conglomerates they belong to. Have separate division who develop games, specifically, targeted at the pink dollar demographic. This, in of itself, is at the core of the problem. We are considered separate markets.

I wouldn't lose much sleep over it though. 'Positive discrimination' will spread through the industry, like a cancer. In a few years people in various jobs, involved in the creation of games, who got the job over a better candidate; to fill quotas. Will put forward enough complaints to have all the fun, humor, dialogue, art etc etc, that could possibly be construed as offensive to any sex, colour, race, religion or creed. Is removed before launch. Then we can all enjoy our Disney family fun PG13 paintball shooters... with perfectly balanced teams of sexes; through automatic server balancing.

We will let this happen to. As our role as the white adult male is to sit there and take a telling. With weight of all our ancestor's crimes against woman's rights... and everything else in the world, ever. Offering a contrary opinion on any and all issues of 'isms'. Regardless of how rational, astute and cogent they are. More often than not gets you labeled as the corresponding 'ist' to said 'isms'.

The gaming industry is an easy target for feminists.... especially students. It's one of the few remaining battle grounds. In which to grind their axe. For the most part, in the west where this GAMING related argument is valid, women have equal right in all aspects of life. If not, arguably, more privileges in some. They missed out on the war. One glorious battle could give them the opportunity to walk in their heroes, comfortable, shoes.

With all things. The more mainstream and accessible something becomes. It moves further and further from it's, original, demographic. This, often, leads to things being made easier. Which would detract from the games that we, as gamers of both sexes, once found challenging. Anyone who watched the Warcraft accounts increase and the amount of people clearing end game, top tier, content increase..... and the people screaming EZ-Mode..... can testify to this. You need to look at the success of the wii and compare it to the sneering and sheer disgust in which it is held by the majority of, white male, gamers.

The, unpopular, truth is that we are different. Biologically and mentally. That is not to say the potential and parameters for intelligent are any different. However. A multitude of factors such as social interaction/expectations with/from the opposite/same gender, spacial awareness, physical strength, interests (viewed from a VERY general but VERY appropriate marketing stand point), general emotions and reactions to content the list goes on.

http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/mente/eisntein/cerebro-homens.html ... you can argue till the cows come home. It won't change a damn thing. Science is fun like that.

The feminist arguments. With concerns about the image projected, of women in games. Influencing young children. Genuinely concern me. I wouldn't want any daughter of mine considering them as, valid, role models. Equally. I would be ashamed if they were weak minded enough to be influenced by a collection of sprites and pixels, or unable to separate reality from entertainment.

I do acknowledge that, a lot of, female objectification goes on in games. I would take this opportunity to highlight the success of manufactured boy bands and, more recently, the twilight series. I have difficulty believing that legions of sweaty geeks hanging around outside hotels for a up close glance of Miley Cyrus's ass would not be viewed as, anything other than, perverts. Yet it is perfectly acceptable, for equally middle aged women, to show up to see the latest 17 year old hunk from pop-idol or the pale underwear models from the latest abomination of vampire movies.

Another perfect example of broadening the demographic shooting you in the foot. Marey Shelly's 'Frankenstein', awesome film adaptation with Robert Dinero as the monster. 'Interview with a Vampire' and 'Queen of the Damned' by Anne Rice, Classics. However. These were directed by men and the images they created led to the creation of 'Blade', 'Underworld' and 'Ultraviolet'. These movies shaped the image of the kick ass vampire, male and female. I'll be the first to admit the women clad in rubber cat suits so tight you could count the freckles on their ass through them probably put a lot of smellier, and more hairy, ones in cinema seats. The protagonist, vampire, was always portrayed as strong and smart; regardless of gender. Then someone changed the game on us. They aimed a whole bunch of vampire movies at the pink demographic. Don't get me wrong. They still make as much money as they ever did..... a fair share of that being guys taking girls to the pictures (you can't deny that, surely?). This decision turned fans of the genre, generally, into seething, rabid, vitriol fueled protestors. These more 'female friendly' movies, ironically, portray the main character as a helpless, lovestruck and weak minded women. Waiting for handsome heroes to save the day and win her heart. Score one for feminism.... right?

I digress from gaming.

You try reporting a girl as being sexually intrusive, suggestive or harassing on a moderated gaming network / server and review how seriously it is taken. In comparison. The reason for this. The moderating staff for something the size warcraft (12 million or something in that range) are, by majority, male and white. That would laugh at the guy and escalate the serious violation report from the female gamer. The first instinct of the white middle class man, in a position were any and all of his actions can be reviewed. Is to biasedly prioritize, compensate and accommodate the minority in the majorities world. If he doesn't take the guy seriously chances there will be no consequences. If he takes him seriously the supervisor will reprimand him and tell him to prioritize more serious issues. If he doesn't take her seriously he is held accountable. If he does take her seriously he is praised for saving the princess and avoiding a lawsuit.

I'll stop before this turns into a book. In short when the average shit shoveler in your cities sewers are 50% men and women. Nintendo will probably make Maria and Lorraine 3D!!!!