Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?
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Because people dont like to be criticised, they dont like having to look at themselves and say, shit sometimes I AM AN ASSHOLE.
Because its the internets and we dont have to act like anyone else is a real person, so we have free license to act like total cock jugglers to strangers.
Because a lot of (male) gamers really are mysoginistic pricks, who totally believe that "tits or GTFO" is a valid and acceptable form of behaviour.
Mostly though its because most gamers have probably never actually spent more than a micro-second to look at and understand what feminism is so they just howl like monkeys and throw shit at anyone who makes them think and/or suggests a change* to their beloved hobby/life .
Quite depressing if you take the 'gamer geek' stereotype to heart and consider most tech literate people to be pretty damn smart and liberal minded.
*Seriously this part here, what happens when ever a standing series get any sort of change suggested by the devs...the monkeys come out and scream and shout about how IT SUCKS NOW ROFL-SHIT THROWING, like the lobotmised trolls they are. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that most gaming culture as a whole isn't worth the effort of trying to improve, best bet would be to seal us all up in a secure under ground facility and fill it with concrete.
Because its the internets and we dont have to act like anyone else is a real person, so we have free license to act like total cock jugglers to strangers.
Because a lot of (male) gamers really are mysoginistic pricks, who totally believe that "tits or GTFO" is a valid and acceptable form of behaviour.
Mostly though its because most gamers have probably never actually spent more than a micro-second to look at and understand what feminism is so they just howl like monkeys and throw shit at anyone who makes them think and/or suggests a change* to their beloved hobby/life .
Quite depressing if you take the 'gamer geek' stereotype to heart and consider most tech literate people to be pretty damn smart and liberal minded.
*Seriously this part here, what happens when ever a standing series get any sort of change suggested by the devs...the monkeys come out and scream and shout about how IT SUCKS NOW ROFL-SHIT THROWING, like the lobotmised trolls they are. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that most gaming culture as a whole isn't worth the effort of trying to improve, best bet would be to seal us all up in a secure under ground facility and fill it with concrete.
You know what? I completely agreed with you right up until you said "Also, I find it hilarious how 'men' think" notice the sexism here?ViaGalactica said:
The problem I think is that we are all prejudice in one way or another. Hell, we are born either male or female, and it is pretty much impossible to imagine life as the other sex. So maybe that's the reason for undeveloped female characters? More male game designers, who know how to create a male character but not a female one.
Many of the people on this board are not against feminists as you see them, it depends on your definition of the word 'feminist'. To me, feminist means a sexist female. One who - if they had the chance - would do the exact same thing but in vice versa. If however you simply support EQUAL female rights, then power to you, there is nothing wrong with that.
Personally I think the problem is in people. The developers of Duke Nukem are not sexist, they are simply responding to their audience. Personally, I loled when I saw the idea for a gametype "capture the babe", that doesn't make me a sexist.
Want more realistically written females? Encourage more female writers to pursue game development careers.
As far as feminism in general, I look at it this way. I will treat a woman as an equal only until she demands special treatment. At this point, she becomes "just a woman." Incidentally, the same reasoning applies to men, only replace "woman" with "pompous asshole."
As far as feminism in general, I look at it this way. I will treat a woman as an equal only until she demands special treatment. At this point, she becomes "just a woman." Incidentally, the same reasoning applies to men, only replace "woman" with "pompous asshole."
Oh here's something I argue with my feminist sister. If feminists were fighting to get gender neutral names for things, like postal worker instead of mailman and mail lady, then why are they using the word feminist? It denotes female connotations rather than equality. Why not say equalist or humanist? Heck, I have told people I was a Masculinist and they called me sexist. Then I explained that I believe in equal rights for both sides, so i should be able to call myself whatever I want. Men should have the same rights as women, so if they want gender neutral names for everything but keep saying "feminist" why can I not say this? Same rules has to apply to everyone or it is still unbalanced. Also, not every woman needs to be the "strong female role-model" in a video game. Then you have the militant feminist that claim equal rights, but really are going for female superiority over men. For instance, at the smelter here in town the women were complaining about the guys posting female centerfolds in the Men's bathroom and saying it is sexist. What the hell are they doing in there anyway? It is OUR room. We don't go in the Lady's room and tell them how to decorate it.
Fuck you, you dont get to speak for me. You may have a damaged and warped relation to women but I dont.John Marcone said:
And westboro baptist church is why everyone hates christians.TU4AR said:
Also I wish people would stop confusing Feminists and Misandrists.
In 2010 ONE, 1, Uno, Ein, singular women was is the top 100 ranked chess players in the world.
They separate the titles. Between gender. There are no physical advantages in chess.
Chess is the game of games.
There are as many women fighting to remove the separate title as there are women fighting to keep the titles separate.
I don't have a point to make. However. I'm sure you can read something into this.
They separate the titles. Between gender. There are no physical advantages in chess.
Chess is the game of games.
There are as many women fighting to remove the separate title as there are women fighting to keep the titles separate.
I don't have a point to make. However. I'm sure you can read something into this.
I found that Gamestation ad to be in poor taste, and the company's response to one of their employee's concerns to be in even poorer taste. I can honestly say that, if I saw a sign like that, I would not shop there. I hope the employee quit. I would. I'm actually surprised there isn't more outrage over this.
Now, I'm afraid I've fallen into the camp of people who cringe when they hear the word 'Feminism'. Perhaps it meant something different once, but now I feel it means crushing men beneath a boot. If you tell me you're a feminist, I'm done talking with you because, no matter what I say, I'm going to offend you since I'm a guy. Let's not forget that feminism, in it's current state, says that, even though it was the woman who cheated, broke the vows, and treats her husband like dirt, HE still has to pay HER for several years, she gets at least HALF of everything--if not all of it--and if kids are involved, almost by default they will go to her. THAT is what comes to mind when I hear the word Feminism.
Equal rights, equal pay, equal treatment (at least where it can be applied) are great. Swinging the balance in the completely opposite direction is not the way to obtain this.
Hm...I feel I have gone off track. Sorry.
Now, I'm afraid I've fallen into the camp of people who cringe when they hear the word 'Feminism'. Perhaps it meant something different once, but now I feel it means crushing men beneath a boot. If you tell me you're a feminist, I'm done talking with you because, no matter what I say, I'm going to offend you since I'm a guy. Let's not forget that feminism, in it's current state, says that, even though it was the woman who cheated, broke the vows, and treats her husband like dirt, HE still has to pay HER for several years, she gets at least HALF of everything--if not all of it--and if kids are involved, almost by default they will go to her. THAT is what comes to mind when I hear the word Feminism.
Equal rights, equal pay, equal treatment (at least where it can be applied) are great. Swinging the balance in the completely opposite direction is not the way to obtain this.
Hm...I feel I have gone off track. Sorry.
You took the words right out of my mouth. Also another thing we have to deal with is the sick fanart.John Marcone said:
No I mean put up with the teasing. Half the time it's just that, joking, teasing. It's not real. And half the time it's just to get a rise out of you. Thus the learning to put up with it. It's stupid to make a big deal about everything someone says. Especially when it comes to gaming. It just shouldn't be taken seriously. Plus I was raised in a sarcastic somewhat rude household. So honestly I personally could care lest about what guys have to say. Most of the time.razelas said:
Angry_squirrel said:
Wow, you possess an astounding amount of pretentiousness and intellectual dishonesty. Why don't you quote the whole quote like a fucking "man"?
ViaGalactica said:
Humans are sexual creatures but that's no excuse to shag everyone you find attractive. Why should prejudice be any different?Angry_squirrel said:
I like your re-defining of feminism, it says a lot about your intellectual honesty, or rather lack thereof. How about women re-define what it means to be a "man"? Not a pleasant idea, huh? So maybe you should stick with what people define themselves as instead of telling people what they really are.Angry_squirrel said:
Well, going back to that whole Gamestation thing. From my experience it's not just a joke, it's a solid fact of my life. While I don't exactly keep a running tab of costs I can't say I've ever had a date that cost me less than £70-£80, thats a generous minimum. A brand new game will probably set me back £40-£50 max. So, in my experience at least it's true. Games are cheaper than Girlfriends.
But all that isn't what bugs me about the situation.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8057792.stm
That's an old news item I pulled up after going through the thread. The advert in it received 673 complaints when it was airing due to it being seen as belittling men, calling them lazy, stupid etc. No action was taken and it barely made the news if I recall. Now in the Gamestation poster malarky. 1 person complained about a poster and suddenly it's newsworthy and apparently an attack on women.
Personally I think both adverts were daft, maybe resulting in the occasional chuckle. But the point I'm shambling towards is how come those 673 voices complaining for men were ignored yet the 1 complaining for women wasn't? That's not equality. Why is it acceptable to blatantly insult and demean men yet "Games are cheaper than your girlfriend" is an attack on all things feminine, disgusting etc etc?
But all that isn't what bugs me about the situation.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8057792.stm
That's an old news item I pulled up after going through the thread. The advert in it received 673 complaints when it was airing due to it being seen as belittling men, calling them lazy, stupid etc. No action was taken and it barely made the news if I recall. Now in the Gamestation poster malarky. 1 person complained about a poster and suddenly it's newsworthy and apparently an attack on women.
Personally I think both adverts were daft, maybe resulting in the occasional chuckle. But the point I'm shambling towards is how come those 673 voices complaining for men were ignored yet the 1 complaining for women wasn't? That's not equality. Why is it acceptable to blatantly insult and demean men yet "Games are cheaper than your girlfriend" is an attack on all things feminine, disgusting etc etc?
No, I do not notice the sexism there because there isn't. I may be prejudiced, sure, but then agian, everytime I've tried to talk to a MAN about this they will always, at some point, say that exact same thing. It's not the women I've talked to, but the men. And it's proven right here, in these forums, that men actually believe this. Sure, maybe not all men, but most some men, hell, most men. If you are not one of those, well, sorry for lumping you in with the others.Angry_squirrel said:
Also, the "Most writers are male so they can't write decent female characters" excuse is full of shit. There have been countless authors in our history that have created fantastic female characters -- male authors. Just like lots of female writers have managed to create great male characters. I don't think this is an issue of can't -- because seriously, if a writer/developer cannot give a character a proper personality because of their sex, then they are really not very good -- as an issue of won't. And they won't because they are, like the majority of the gaming community, stuck on the idea that women don't play games and so no one would buy a game if they dared make an exceptional female character as the lead.
Your definition of 'feminism' couldn't be more flawed. It's not about being sexist towards men, but demanding MEN to stop being sexist towards US.
Dude, okay. Sexist does not equal a woman-hating, woman-bashing, 'go back to the kitchen you slut kind of person'. That's misogyny. The creators might not be sexist, but the "Capture the Babe" feature certainly is.
Where do you draw the line between being addressed as a woman and being womanized? As a bloke I've not particularly thought about it, however from my own gender perspective males seem to be stereotyped just as harshly by mass media campaigns selling crap to the masses.aks100 said:
Feminism tends to stem (and rightly so) from a period of inequality between men and women, which is in some aspects still around e.g. equal pay/job roles. It suggests there should be complete equality, however complete equality is difficult to achieve. Beyond the obvious differences physical differences men and women are treated differently across most if not all cultures and society's. So making using these broad ideas feminism isn't only unworkable, it's not that natural.
Therefore we try to bridge the gap between feminist ideals and being feminine using broad generalized stereotypes.
The problems arise when one of two (very broad) parties step into, or over the grey smudge between ideals and stereotypes.
Firstly, theres you belligerent boys and girls that take anything short of total equality as wrong. This both riles up and annoys people of our two remaining groups for reasons previously discussed.
Secondly, when someone who's not a feminist, either knowingly or unknowingly says something degrading. Why do they do this? Simple, either (such as in your example) because using a stereotype and telling guys their girlfriends is cheap reinforces masculinity. This makes males feel more dominant/empowered and makes us buy more video-games. This is a broad stereotype, but hey lets face it, most gamers are seen to be male. Or to help us identify with our group telling us e.g Guys play video games, your a guy, buy video-games. In this case the goal is to sell product, but the end goal can be anything really. From making girls buy perfume to helping us create working roles in groups and society.
So in short, feminism annoys people, because it takes away being feminine. However left to our own devises, without feminism we guys, well --> insert past few thousand years here.
Hope this helps. Any problems with this I blame solely on the fact I should have asleep an hour or two ago.
Here is what bothers me about "teasing": it trivializes the issue. It makes it seem exactly what the person intends it to be, i.e. A JOKE. You can make the argument that some people know when a joke is a joke and when it crosses the line... but where exactly is that line? And when you're used to sexist humor, will you actually take action when that line is crossed? Or will you extend the line because you don't want to "make a big deal of it"?TerraRey said:
I'm not going to lie: I laugh at racist jokes, politically incorrect jokes, sexist jokes etc. And ideally, I wish I could not, but I'm a immature teenager, so hopefully the socialized "humor" of those jokes fades away in time like flatulent humor.
Pfft, I was talking about the word. Black Rights Movement and Gay Rights Movement clearly are about the rights of those members; Gayism and Blackism would be about making themselves the most important player. Do you see the distinction?thaluikhain said:
They also have more of a reason, as I understand it blacks and gays can have a pretty hard time of it in Yankland, whereas women are treated fairly, arguably even preferentially, in the Western world.
This reminded me of a professor i had at my college, dear God if you didn't have some sort of feminine slant to it you'd likely - at best - get a B. she was definitely from the era when Feminist movement was at it's peak. and it was definitely no secret on campus.Hucket said:
She is now retired, but at my college the ratio was 8 to 1 - favoring the males. This was the Milwaukee School of Engineering. yeah the school tried - and i volunteered on occasion - to encourage people to come, including women who were interested, but we kept getting roughly 8 to 1. and those were the best odds you know why? cause the college added a Nurse department and business management department.
Seriously not pulling this stereotypical BS stuff on it. It's not like they can just Command and Control economy style with enrollment. If women typically don't wanna do engineering, they don't have to. but when the feminist whatever organization says they need to increase the number, i gotta toss the ball back in their court. I and the college cannot make women do it if they don't seem to be interested. It's math, science and applied physics what do you think they should change?
and seriously about women in gaming, it is getting better. slowly but surely.
But just as there is with movies, it will be the same (hopefully dear God i hope) with games. you will have your good deep and emotional portrayals, and ones that are just meant for fun. fun being it could be just a super oversexed versions of either gender.
sex sells, even women use it to their own advantage, shameless even proud of it. I believe the term is called lipstick feminism. some men play the same game in their own way too.
and yes i've met the sort of 'feminazi', very annoying and typically i just walk away let them prattle on.
P.S.
I hope people realize that when they say Feminazi. it's the same as Grammar Nazi. just someone who is annoyingly persistent and obnoxious about something. Not literally the genocidal fascist rulers.
Well, for those of us who like to give as much as we receive, boyfriends can be quite costly. At least my friends and I have grown out of the need of having men pay for everything. And, hell, we live in a place that clearly reinforces these roles. I, personally, do not think it fair to have just the guy pay for everything. Nor do I think it's okay to have him give me presents and not give anything in return. When I go out with someone, we go dutch. The only times when I'd let a date for everything in a date is if I'm broke or he's really, truly, very insistent. Sadly, not many people share this ideas of mine -- men and women alike. Some men will insist to pay or their poor ego will be shattered. (They also turn down gifts, the ungrateful bastards.) And then there's the women who can't stand the idea of paying for her shit.Acrisius said:How are boyfriends expensive? The norm encourages the guy to always pay for everything. What do girls have to pay for, if we just assume the cultural norm is "true"? I'm genuinely curious here, so please be sincere in your reply
Oh and for the other thing you said, about having a hard time relating to female characters...You're still the minority of players, from a utilitarian point of view, isn't it better if the minority has problems like that, rather than the majority?
Well, I say, screw that. The cultural norm might apply to a great number of people, but that doesn't mean there aren't those out there who refuse to play by society's backwards rules. Seriously, no one should have to. Men should not be obliged to pay for absolutely everything, just like women shouldn't treat sex as a commodity with which to manipulate men. Yeah, sure, I might be one of the exceptions out there, but I won't let a man or woman, whoever it is I'm dating at the time, take the fall every time. [/rant]
As for the other point: Sure, women may be a minority, but it's not that small a minority. There are plenty of women out there who play the same games that men do. Hell, there might be the same amount of women who do, but the companies still only cater to men. Which, hell, would be fine, if there was a 99% male audience and a 1% female audience.
Also, I don't think that sex limits someone's ability to identify with a character. Us, women, can perfectly identify with more than one male character, why shouldn't men be able to do the same thing with women? Just like we have learned to relate to Male Character Dude, guys should aslo try to learn to identify with Female Character Chick. That way, the sex of the main character won't always be male and the character would still be approachable and relatable.