Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?
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priestswearseatbelts raises an interesting point: are video-gamers perpetuating society's historic inequalities, or merely reflecting them?
Anyone can be bought. Everyone has a price; whether it be money, material goods or emotional investment everyone has a price. To think otherwise is a very blinkered view.ViaGalactica said:
Christ, I know I'm responding to something not directed specifically at me but your use of his moniker couldn't be more condescending if you tried. Here's a tip, if you want to insult people then talk to them like they're a child.
Irritatingly I'm with you on this main point. I will say, however, that most games with cardboard cutout female characters probably have an entire cast of crappy characters, likely including the protagonist.
Well fuck me sideways with a spoon. You realise you just called all male gamers a combination of stupid, boring, cowardly, morally corrupt, ugly, weak and/or lazy. I mean I know you do, I just wanted to make it obvious. That will win you some friends I'm sure, and really convince people of your objective neutrality and weighty opinions.
Unfortunately you have several roadblocks. The first being the bat shit mental feminazis that have been brought up, they're all feminists. Kinda like how the WBC is still Christian, they're still feminist. No true scotsman and all that.ViaGalactica said:
The second point being that the name is inherently sexist; feminism as a word isn't about equality, it's about women.
Okay, dude, what?John Marcone said:
So, your cousin is a hot model with a real personality. Well, what of it? I don't. I never said it was impossible for these things to exist together. Hell, I said they CAN and SHOULD exist together. I said, many, many, many times that killer looks will not offend anybody unless the character bearing them is empty and two dimensional. That's when people mind. That's when people complain.
I never said it was unrealistic to be insanely hot and incredibly interesting. I NEVER said that. Seriously, are you even trying? And there's a difference between wearing a bikini in the arctic for a photoshoot or whatever you meant when you said they wear clothes no one else would dare wear and showing up to a Battlefield wearing nothing but a bikini. That is unrealistic. The guys wear armor and the girls were tiny outfits that offer no protection whatsoever? Yeah, that's a clear example of pandering to the teenage boy demographic.
Also, dude, no one in their right mind would demonize models for being models. It's their job. It's what they chose. Who is even saying the opposite?
And I'm guessing this is your way of saying "I couldn't find any, so Imma throw the ball back to you." Well, let me tell you something about good story-telling: You are supposed to show, not tell. It doesn't matter if in some booklet Female Character C is described as being the most awesome character ever if, during gameplay, she is nothing but a giggling mess of sex appeal.
So much for fair.aks100 said:
Men and women are identical gamers, but gaming is widely accepted as a male past-time. I understand that the male:female ratio of gamers is realistically 1:1, and I agree that the 'cheaper than your girlfriend' ad was sexist and offensive, but advertising to men in such a way is ridiculously effective. Why? A man has genitals and a brain, and only enough blood to run one at a time. The slightest provocation can re-direct the flow, thus resulting in a man who's going to buy before thinking.
The sexism in gaming stems from the GIFT - Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory, brought to us by PennyArcade. The theory states that a normal person, given anonymity and an audience, becomes a total fuckwad in most cases, devoid of any sense of social courtesy, common sense or general human respect.
This is caused by a person's ugly side coming out due to their actions and words being completely without consequence, IE a games server.
Look no further than 4chan for a lab full of mice on this theory.
As a male feminist writing a paper for my feminism class as well (and yet here I am procrastinating on the Escapistaks100 said:
), I can't provide exact answers and citations, but here are a few ideas you may want to follow up on:1) Since you are studying feminism, you may be familiar with the concept of "lack of prior claim." [http://cw.routledge.com/textbooks/readingsfordiversity/section3/ch-09-a.pdf] Now, in regards to the history of video games, females were not particularly involved in its early development. Thus the result is a male-dominated video game industry, as seen today, that caters mainly to males and relies on female stereotypes as a result of the lack of female input.
2) Like many major media outlets in the United States with origins dating back more than 30 years, white males hold the leadership positions in the major video game developers and publishers. To name a few:
- Bobby Kotick (CEO, President, and Director of Activision Blizzard)
- Tim Sweeney (chairman, CEO and technical director), Cliff Bleszinski (design director), Steve Polge (lead programmer), and Jerry O'Flaherty (studio art director from 2003-2007) of Epic Games
- Evan Wells (Co-president), Christophe Balestra (Co-president), Bruce Straley, (Game director) of Naughty Dog (although they do have Amy Hennig [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Hennig], so good on them for that)
- Harold Ryan (President), Jason Jones and Alexander Seropian (co-founders) of Bungie
As a guy dating a gamer girl...I agree with this statement entirely.firstxaidxkit said:
When I had my girlfriend over one time and I was looking for something fun for us to play, she went "OOOH!! You have No More Heroes 2! Can I play it? I loved the first one!". And my first thought was "Holy crap, She likes No More Heroes! Guess I don't need to avoid overly violent/gory games with her! AWESOME!".
And since then I've discovered that she's into a huge variety of games (like, maybe even more than me!). And then I found out that she OWNS, and LOVES...ETERNAL DARKNESS (a game I have been wanting to try for years, after playing it at a friend's). My mind was blown. ^_^ Plus, she's damn good at anything we play together.
...Yeah, she kicks ass. I'm sure I used up a year's supply of luck when I met her.
Mostly because people hate feminists. Which really sucks when (like me) you are a feminist.aks100 said:
There are so many female gamers, there is really no excuse for this anymore.
And guys who talk about "encounters with feminazis" - really, grow up. It is offensive to compare any feminist to a nazi, no matter bitchy they might be.
Also, really, modern feminists are not that bitchy. We just want the freedom to do as we like - the freedom any man already has.
Um...so "Black Right's Movement" is inherently racist, and "Gay Right's Movement" is inherently heterophobe?kurupt87 said:
Because gender neutrality is boring as fuck. It always has been and always will be. Look at the advert argument, we're trying to achieve gender neutrality all over the place now and as best we can as well. Then one advert comes along hinting at sexism towards women and the whole fucking community is up in arms over it. Look at this advert and then tell me whether either one actively discriminates against the opposite sex. The correct answer is in the spoiler.aks100 said:
No, they don't. Each one plays on a stereotype but never actually says anything about the opposite sex being lesser beings or discriminates in any way. They're both meant as jokes, not to be taken seriously,
We need to get over this hump of constant political correctness and let people make these adverts, let people make jokes about each other. Make a sexist, racist or otherwise offensive joke; they're funny. You can't ever tell me you haven't laughed at an 'Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman' joke because you thought they were racist. They are racist, but nobody cares about it.
My point is that people should be allowed to say things like these without fear that they'll be hunted down by the mob of offended people. As long as it doesn't get to the point where people are discriminated against, then it's fine. You can't police people's thoughts and views but you can police their actions.
Lets all stop being boring old farts and laugh at these kind of things again. I can tell you now that we'll all be closer if we stop arguing about racism, sexism and homophobia if we all just looked at ourselves and each other an laughed.
I think the most feminist game in existence is Dead or Alive Xtreme 2 (if you have anything better, PLEASE tell me). You spend money on makeup, accessories, and swimsuits. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.
And you can only know this from personal experience. DOAX2 sounds like a great idea when you're drunk...but I never am.
And you can only know this from personal experience. DOAX2 sounds like a great idea when you're drunk...but I never am.
No one likes it when people complain. Especially when the majority doesn't find anything to complain about. Each sex has their cultural stereotype, which isn't always completely accurate. Nevertheless, you see a lot more women complaining about being portrayed as helpless than you see men complaining that women never hold the door open for them.
Also, gaming is about escaping into a fantasy. Sorry to tell you this, but most teenage boys don't have fantasies where the female character is given equal footing and are able to fend for themselves. Teenage boys enjoy being the hero. Gaming companies know their target demographic and aim to hit it.
Also, gaming is about escaping into a fantasy. Sorry to tell you this, but most teenage boys don't have fantasies where the female character is given equal footing and are able to fend for themselves. Teenage boys enjoy being the hero. Gaming companies know their target demographic and aim to hit it.
NO. NO NO NO. As a vocal male feminist who is routinely mocked for feminist ideals, NEVER put up with it. You have to stand firm and never stop pushing the status quo. Assert that you are a gamer and that sex has NOTHING has no relevancy on gamers, because that's fucking reality and it's boys who should have to put with it.TerraRey said:
Off-topic:
Wtf captcha... I'm a chinese major and all but seriously...
Feminism gets a bad rap, especially in the gaming community, because of people like that lady at the Gamestation. (Let's make it clear now that I think the ad is immature, and beyond that I don't give a shit.) I would point out that a lot of feminists feel the need to be vocal just to get their point across, because nobody really listens if they don't. True or not, that's reasoning.
As far as females who game are concerned...well, I don't know one female gamer who enjoys seeing pictures like Ivy's hanging around. (Yeah, yeah, she has a back story. Who gives a flying fuck? She could still cover her boobs like a respectable woman.) I love games with blood and gore, cool weapons and epic plots. They're fun. But the second you throw in a pair of tits attached to absurdly long legs, like some creepy strider, I feel unwelcome. I feel like they all want me to go and play Farmville and Bejeweled, because that's where I belong. And you know what? Browsing a lot of the recent threads on this topic, it honestly seems like a lot of male gamers feel that way.
As for your actual question? People are afraid of change. Gaming has been the boy club for pretty much all of its existence, so I would imagine the idea of gaming becoming more mainstream and attracting more women is a bit shocking to some males. That's the only explanation I can think of, besides the fact that our society is still very male-dominated.
As far as females who game are concerned...well, I don't know one female gamer who enjoys seeing pictures like Ivy's hanging around. (Yeah, yeah, she has a back story. Who gives a flying fuck? She could still cover her boobs like a respectable woman.) I love games with blood and gore, cool weapons and epic plots. They're fun. But the second you throw in a pair of tits attached to absurdly long legs, like some creepy strider, I feel unwelcome. I feel like they all want me to go and play Farmville and Bejeweled, because that's where I belong. And you know what? Browsing a lot of the recent threads on this topic, it honestly seems like a lot of male gamers feel that way.
As for your actual question? People are afraid of change. Gaming has been the boy club for pretty much all of its existence, so I would imagine the idea of gaming becoming more mainstream and attracting more women is a bit shocking to some males. That's the only explanation I can think of, besides the fact that our society is still very male-dominated.
Oh, oh, dude that was not my point. At all. I'm sorry it came out that way. It was just bad wording on my side. No, what I meant to say was that men are almost always positively portrayed in videogames, usually they have two of those qualities are listed. There is a vast, positive representation of Males in the industry, so complaining about how videogame men ~totally demean men~ is kinda silly. I didn't mean to call anybody stupid, boring, etc.kurupt87 said:
Feminism is about giving women the same opportunities men have. It's not about taking rights away from men, but letting women in on the priviledges men have. By doing so, you'd have women at the same standing than men, and we'd all have equal rights in the end. (If...it ever...happens...you know.)
And yeah, the crazy ones tend to give the others a bad name. But just like you can't say all Christians are like the WBC, you can't assume all feminists are like the very disliked, 'feminazis.' And the worst part is that all a woman needs to do to be considered a feminazi is say something is or someone is saying something sexist/offensive.
Really, I think that company had a particular audience in mind when they ran that campaign. Companies do that sort of thing because they want to make money. It's not sexist. It's like calling commercials for the AARP ageist because they don't include advertisements aimed at people below age 50.