Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?

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BanthaFodder

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mainly because games aren't that good at combating sexism. there ARE exceptions (which I will note), but it usually ends up like this:

Feminism
usually ends up as: the tough-as-nails GRRL who kicks guys in the balls and doesn't smile and is TOUGH just like the GUYS!!!
exceptions: Zelda, Ameterasu, Alyx Vance, others

Kids
usually ends up as: sacchrine/licensed garbage. follows the old credo of "kids don't care as long as cartoon character X is on the box. charge out the ass and cut it down to 4 hours in length to maximize profit"
exceptions: Pokemon series, the LEGO series, LittleBigPlanet, others

Casual
usually ends up as: a slow-paced puzzle/exercise game. slap a celebrity/nonthreatening white person on the cover and package it with an exercise mat or some sweatbands or something.
exceptions: Plants vs Zombies, Nintendogs, Peggle, Chime, Wii Sports, etc.
 

NeoGuardian86

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Sniper Team 4 said:
I found that Gamestation ad to be in poor taste, and the company's response to one of their employee's concerns to be in even poorer taste. I can honestly say that, if I saw a sign like that, I would not shop there. I hope the employee quit. I would. I'm actually surprised there isn't more outrage over this.

Now, I'm afraid I've fallen into the camp of people who cringe when they hear the word 'Feminism'. Perhaps it meant something different once, but now I feel it means crushing men beneath a boot. If you tell me you're a feminist, I'm done talking with you because, no matter what I say, I'm going to offend you since I'm a guy. Let's not forget that feminism, in it's current state, says that, even though it was the woman who cheated, broke the vows, and treats her husband like dirt, HE still has to pay HER for several years, she gets at least HALF of everything--if not all of it--and if kids are involved, almost by default they will go to her. THAT is what comes to mind when I hear the word Feminism.
Equal rights, equal pay, equal treatment (at least where it can be applied) are great. Swinging the balance in the completely opposite direction is not the way to obtain this.
Hm...I feel I have gone off track. Sorry.
I cannot but almost completely agree with this comment.

except I'll get out of my comfort zone occasionally and talk to the feminist still. Even if I'll inevitably offend them in some way.


Speaking for myself, I'm Saudi. but I'm also technically half American and have lived in America for long stretches of time. when i go to Saudi I'm a feminist because there are DEFINITE problems, but when I'm in America I'm most definitely not, if anything I'd want the justice system to work better at that. women are educated,they can get good paying jobs and it's getting better standard of living in the US, this is not the 1950-1960's anymore.

my mother is a social worker, and i have more then on occasion heard stories from her or from the ladies at the shelters of women taking full advantage abuse of the child welfare fund. Sometimes the reason men don't hand over the money isn't because they are a bum, it could really be just because of that, he doesn't trust it'll make it to his kids. which should beg the question, who should the kids be with then?
 

Jake0fTrades

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I'm a guy and even I think there are a few issues in that department.

The use of sexual slogans and references only further defame gaming as a respectable medium. It's not like Video Games aren't a controversial issue already, why make it worse?
 

kurupt87

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razelas said:
TerraRey said:
razelas said:
TerraRey said:
You should just learn to put up with it.
NO. NO NO NO. As a vocal male feminist who is routinely mocked for feminist ideals, NEVER put up with it. You have to stand firm and never stop pushing the status quo. Assert that you are a gamer and that sex has NOTHING has no relevancy on gamers, because that's fucking reality and it's boys who should have to put with it.
No I mean put up with the teasing. Half the time it's just that, joking, teasing. It's not real. And half the time it's just to get a rise out of you. Thus the learning to put up with it. It's stupid to make a big deal about everything someone says. Especially when it comes to gaming. It just shouldn't be taken seriously. Plus I was raised in a sarcastic somewhat rude household. So honestly I personally could care lest about what guys have to say. Most of the time.
Here is what bothers me about "teasing": it trivializes the issue. It makes it seem exactly what the person intends it to be, i.e. A JOKE. You can make the argument that some people know when a joke is a joke and when it crosses the line... but where exactly is that line? And when you're used to sexist humor, will you actually take action when that line is crossed? Or will you extend the line because you don't want to "make a big deal of it"?

I'm not going to lie: I laugh at racist jokes, politically incorrect jokes, sexist jokes etc. And ideally, I wish I could not, but I'm a immature teenager, so hopefully the socialized "humor" of those jokes fades away in time like flatulent humor.
Oh, grow up for christ sake. Those of us who laugh at these jokes can tell when someone is being serious. Those who don't, can't.

Most anything in Western marketing that's -ist is going to be a joke; it's even a compliment to whatever group it is, that they're mature enough and actually have a sense of humour that wasn't left to rot away during childhood.
 

Angry_squirrel

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razelas said:
Angry_squirrel said:
ViaGalactica said:
The fact that people are against feminism in general is a very, very sad fact.

The problem with that fact is, John, that it implies females are expensive. And, surely, you must know this, John, but women are not really property. See, unlike a video game, you can't really 'buy' a woman because, unless you are talking about a prostitute with a fee, they don't have a prize. We are not commodities, John, we cannot be bought.

Also, I find it hilarious how men think that the reason women don't like most female game characters is because they are hotter than us. Oh, you guys. I, personally, have never met someone who would ever feel insecure when compared to a fictional, 2D character. It's not the characters looks that bother us, John, nor is it the clothes -- or lack thereof -- that they wear. It's their personalities. Take Samara from Mass Effect 2, for example. Gorgeous face, great pair of breasts, amazing body, tight and revealing suit -- she's damn hot. And yet us, 'feminazis' do not complain about her. Want to know why? Because she is a well developed character. She has a personality. She is more than just a set of breasts to stare at. It doesn't matter if the characters are hotter, I like looking at hot characters, it's the empty personalities what annoy us.

And really, I know it's hard to be a male gamer. How can you stand living when most male video game characters are at least two of the following: smart, funny, brave, courageous, good-looking, strong, badass or determined. They are so unfair to you guys. So unfair.
You know what? I completely agreed with you right up until you said "Also, I find it hilarious how 'men' think" notice the sexism here?

Wow, you possess an astounding amount of pretentiousness and intellectual dishonesty. Why don't you quote the whole quote like a fucking "man"?

ViaGalactica said:
Also, I find it hilarious how men think that the reason women don't like most female game characters is because they are hotter than us.
Angry_squirrel said:
The problem I think is that we are all prejudice in one way or another.
Humans are sexual creatures but that's no excuse to shag everyone you find attractive. Why should prejudice be any different?

Angry_squirrel said:
Many of the people on this board are not against feminists as you see them, it depends on your definition of the word 'feminist'. To me, feminist means a sexist female. One who - if they had the chance - would do the exact same thing but in vice versa. If however you simply support EQUAL female rights, then power to you, there is nothing wrong with that.
I like your re-defining of feminism, it says a lot about your intellectual honesty, or rather lack thereof. How about women re-define what it means to be a "man"? Not a pleasant idea, huh? So maybe you should stick with what people define themselves as instead of telling people what they really are.
This is how I interpret the word based on my experience with many people calling themselves feminists, I made a point to say that it is my opinion, not fact. Nor did I ever go "Telling people what they really are"

I also tried to make it very clear that I do support equal female rights. I get the impression that this is what you're arguing for, so why with the aggression?
 

angelsmash

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ViaGalactica said:
No. Just, no.
Feminism is not about making it all about the women. It's about giving women the same opportunities that men have. This does not mean games should only be made about women who are hot and awesome and kick ass and amazing at everything. No, the only thing feminism wants and asks for is that, for every game made about a great male lead, there should be a game about a great female lead. (Hint: Great does not mean flawless.) Or, if that's going too far, to have in game a female character that is just as great as the male characters. (Hit: 'Just as great' does not mean 'good at everything they do', 'invincible' or so much better than the guys.)
So how far should this stupid, arbitrary rule apply? Should there be a black protagonist for every eight white protagonists produced by American studios? How about by age? Should we have a couple dozen Baby's Day Out games for every shooter starring a twenty-something male?

What cracks me up about the Duke Nukem thing is that not a single blogger, loudmouth or gaming "commentator" has pointed out the blaringly obvious: tens of thousands of ostensibly male aliens are mowed down by Duke, just as in every other FPS made since Doom, but slap a chick and suddenly you might as well have yelled pig in a synagogue? Why the double-standard, ladies? It reminds me of how French soldiers in WWI were lucky to earn a few sous per week on the front line while Parisian dancing girls raked in hundreds of dollars just for flashing a bit of skin. Totally dumb, intellectually incurious and entirely masturbatory myopia.

My reaction to femme-nazi bleating has always been the same: not only isn't there any lack of women in video games, there are way too many to justify themselves. Oh, well, forgive me - between Wet, Siren, Velvet Assassin, Half Life 2, Max Payne (1 and 2), the entire Metroid series, Baldur's Gate, Planescape, Mass Effect, Mirror's Edge, Heavenly Sword and the Tomb Raider series, it's real slim pickings. Please. The average heterosexual woman does not have hero fantasies and has little if any desire to wear the pants in a fictional story, hence there aren't many women heroes who retain even the slightest whiff of femininity. It's just biology, deal with it.

I do think that, to an extent, a poster above who said these women are basically jealous of the body types portrayed in games (as well as movies, TV, et al.) was on the ball, and that this forms some of the building vitriol these dourlettes are brewing on the web. What said wonderful ladies don't seem to understand (or more likely, don't care about) is that games have always been an escapist (*cough*) enterprise. No normally-adjusted male could give a squirt of piss that the marines in Gears of War or Serious Sam are all roided out and "unrealistic". If anything, it's just funny.

Video games started in men's basements as a way to pass the time, and for the vast majority of that time women avoided them like the plague. There was zero interest from women in video games. If I sound a little invested in this whole thing, it's because I'll be damned if I'm going to let them turn up at the doorstep and muzzle the industry so it's another boring, safe, desperately politically-correct hobby (and also because I had a big argument with a mondo **** this morning about it).
 

Rottweiler

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"No. Just, no.
Feminism is not about making it all about the women. It's about giving women the same opportunities that men have. "

Except this isn't the case. The loudest- and thus most recognized- persons who use the term 'Feminism' approach the subject in exactly that way. That women are superior and that men work day in and day out to 'keep them down'.

I could use your same argument about 'Chauvinism' except it's *accepted* that Chauvinism has no redeeming qualities and thus I'd get burned in effigy.


The problem is that sane people who believe in Equality actually *practice it* and don't run about screaming about it.
 

Marcosn

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ViaGalactica said:
So, if everyone has a prize what's yours? How much should a woman pay you in order for you to have sex with her/date her/ marry her? Oh, wait, you meant every woman has a prize, not every man. Because, if we lived in a society where men and women were treated equally, pictures like the one you posted would not just show a girl spreading her legs for a ring, but a man doing it as well. But, nope, men cannot be materialistic, gold-digging bastards. It's only the dirty women.

You are right, I haven't read Ivy's backstory or list of personality traits, nor do I plan on doing it. And it's precisely because I have no knowledge about her -- besides the fact that she has giant breasts and a tiny outfit -- that I did NOT mention Ivy. As I said, characters can be the hottest of the hot, no one will care unless they are more than just something to look at.

And what you mean by ~unrealistic~ is not the same thing we mean by ~unrealistic~. A giant pair of breasts that just stand there, looking perfectly perky even when they have no support, is unrealistic, yes. But these are the kind of things that can be pushed aside so long as there is: a) a valid reason for someone wearing such little clothing -- sending a girl in a bikini to a war zone is the perfect example of this not done -- or b)a personality behind the cleavage. A realistic personality does not stand alone and away from unrealistic features. Hell, sometimes they can work just fine together.

How can men even complain about the male characters? The vast majority are pretty cool dudes, or in the case of shooters Generic White Male Number 78 who gets to kick some ass. Or, tell me, when have you seen a game that only includes men as eye-candy to be oggled?

And on a side note: I wasn't trying to add any emotional weight to anything. Shit, dude, I just like repeating shit. But, oh, okay.
holy crap... i think some of my brain cells just died =_=
He didnt mean every woman or just every man he meant everyone. EVERYONE has a price.
"wow the girl is spreading her legs for the ring that must be sexist" is just wrong on so many levels, have you noticed how its the guy who's proposing and how it almost always is?

Also about Ivy, you just said that you haven't looked into her story and then blamed her for having large breasts and wearing skimpy clothing. Maybe if you actually knew about her then you would see more than just breasts.

how can men even complain? There are so many ways, have you played resident evil 5? "RAWR BIG MUSCLES I STOP BOULDER" and so many other games show men to be big piles of muscle with nothing else and other unrealistic things. There is no room for complaints from men because it's only the womens complaints that get heard.
TU4AR said:
Who wants to know why people hate feminism? THIS is why:

http://users.livejournal.com/_allecto_/34718.html

FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUU
On a lighter note FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU, why would you link that?! it hurts when i try to read it... how dare a male be in charge :O
 

Thaluikhain

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angelsmash said:
What cracks me up about the Duke Nukem thing is that not a single blogger, loudmouth or gaming "commentator" has pointed out the blaringly obvious: tens of thousands of ostensibly male aliens are mowed down by Duke, just as in every other FPS made since Doom, but slap a chick and suddenly you might as well have yelled pig in a synagogue? Why the double-standard, ladies?
Mass slaughter of aliens isn't a social problem, sexism, in particular violence against women, is. [footnote]If an alien race ever does visit us, alot of us will stop admitting to watching and playing alot of games with aliens in it, I dare say[/footnote]

Additionally, isn't Duke Nukem a soldier, and the aliens are enemy soldiers in an unjust war? If Duke had gone to an alien city and was mowing down alien civilians for the hell of it...yeah, there'd be complaints about that.
 

angelsmash

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It's only a woman who could find something to complain about when some sucker's on one knee giving her a diamond ring.
 

angelsmash

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thaluikhain said:
Mass slaughter of aliens isn't a social problem, sexism, in particular violence against women, is.

Additionally, isn't Duke Nukem a soldier, and the aliens are enemy soldiers in an unjust war? If Duke had gone to an alien city and was mowing down alien civilians for the hell of it...yeah, there'd be complaints about that.
But that's exactly my point. No one kicks up a fuss about (male) soldiers being killed because a) it's mindless fiction, who cares and b) going to war is just something men are expected to do. These men don't warrant comment. One would think that men are getting the shaft in this sort of deal, but alas.
 

LordOrin

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Flauros said:
Oh man, ive been running into this alot. Some people HATE when females actually do things like grown ups.


Theres this one video on youtube, about how this one guy looks like a girl, so when he talks some guys actually tell him he needs to be quiet and hes being a ***** for saying something. And he correctly points out how thats dumb, girls are allowed to talk, duh.

The comments are ASTOUNDING "HOW DARE YOU, YOU HATE ALL MEN! YOU WANT TO DESTROY MEN! ARRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHH! ARRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
amazing.
That sounds hilarious. Can you link to it?
 

razelas

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kurupt87 said:
Oh, grow up for christ sake. Those of us who laugh at these jokes can tell when someone is being serious. Those who don't, can't.
And what exactly do you do if someone is serious? Just cough and let the awkward moment pass?

kurupt87 said:
Most anything in Western marketing that's -ist is going to be a joke; it's even a compliment to whatever group it is, that they're mature enough and actually have a sense of humour that wasn't left to rot away during childhood.
Finding humor in oppression and irrational hate is "mature"?

Angry_squirrel said:
This is how I interpret the word based on my experience with many people calling themselves feminists, I made a point to say that it is my opinion, not fact. Nor did I ever go "Telling people what they really are"
Please explain how "interpreting" a group identity (based on anecdotal evidence no less) is different from telling people that the identity they use is incorrect.

Angry_squirrel said:
I also tried to make it very clear that I do support equal female rights. I get the impression that this is what you're arguing for, so why with the aggression?
You support equal female rights but you think feminists are sexist women... even though feminists have done more than you could ever "support" for equal female rights? lolwut?
 

weasol

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because feminists are not the target audience. developers still can't get a good female character design down yet. watch the extra credits episode on this subject.
 

MasterChief892039

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oplinger said:
Culture.

If it becomes more gender neutral, we lose the culture. We lose a lot really. Most of it doesn't matter. However, the gaming subculture would be a lot different if we let everyone in. Things change as they become mainstream >_> ask a fan of any indie band that got popular.


That's the most ridiculous argument for why women are excluded from gaming culture that I've ever heard.
 

ViaGalactica

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angelsmash said:
ViaGalactica said:
-Snip-

Okay, first, yes. What's wrong with variety? Why should every character be a white, straight male? Are male gamers so close minded that they could not handle playing with a black man, a gay woman, a muslim child?

The problem people have with the Duke Nukem feature -- to clarify: I do not have a problem with it. I think it's immature and boring, but eh, what else can one expect from Duke Nukem? --- is that unlike the alien killing, getting slapped in the ass does happen to women. And it's games like this or shows with a similar standing, that promote these behaviours. Ask any woman, chances are some douchebag has, at some point, slapped her in the ass or copped a feel just because she was there. When it's something that DOES happen to us, it's not fun watching it be triviliazied in a lulzy way on a videogame. Shit, if it was a serious game about the wrongs of sexual harrasment no one would give a damn. A better example for your comparison would have been the game CoD:MW1 which clearly involves the American forces in a Mysterious Middle Eastern Country being Big Goddamn Heroes. It's something that's loosely based on reality, and that's why some people don't like it. You wouldn't be able to pass Racist rhetoric in a video game and claim it's just for the lulz, because like with sexism, racism is still existant and prevalent in our society.

(Also, lol at the WWI comment. Seriously, why not complain about the men who, while the soldiers were fighting, were delighting themselves in feasts sponsored by their inherited money? Nah, only the girls who were Working -- yes, stripping is a job -- are the ones who had undeserved money.)

Also, hello there, blatant generalizations! What makes you think women don't have 'Hero Fantasies.' Shit, dude, I know this might be hard to swallow, but, women do have 'Hero Fantasies' because, get this dude, women can like the same things that men like. And -- hear this -- sometimes, we tend to have the same fantasies as men! But maybe that means we are not proper girls because we all know that TRUE WOMEN should be docile and sweet and dream about babies and cake not about kicking ass or being a bad ass hitman. Yeah, fuck that. This are not the 1950s, your gender roles are now considered backwards, stupid and ignorant.

Blimey, it's like people don't get the point. The huge racks, amazing asses and never ending close-up of cleavages do not matter so long as the characters are well developed. I've said it before. We don't care as much about the looks as you think we do. Yes, not every woman is a shallow, insecure ***** who will go to a corner and cry everytime someone with a bigger cup size appears on the screen. No, we don't throw our arms up in the air in frustration when we see someone with amazing legs. And by the sevenhundreth closeup of Female Sidekicks A's tits we've stopped giving a damn about the fanservice. Personality is far more important than looks.

Men, women are not trying to take over the industry. We are not going to storm into your houses and replace your shooters collection with Strawberry Shortcake's Extreme Adventure 2: The Quest of Tampons and Chocolates. Nor are we going to stop developers from including a Male main character. No, men. We do not want to ~dominate~. We want decent representation. Like the one you tend to have. That's all we want. Good, well-developed female characters. (PS: We promise we will leave the PC Police at the door.)
 

Angry_squirrel

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ViaGalactica said:
Angry_squirrel said:
You know what? I completely agreed with you right up until you said "Also, I find it hilarious how 'men' think" notice the sexism here?

The problem I think is that we are all prejudice in one way or another. Hell, we are born either male or female, and it is pretty much impossible to imagine life as the other sex. So maybe that's the reason for undeveloped female characters? More male game designers, who know how to create a male character but not a female one.

Many of the people on this board are not against feminists as you see them, it depends on your definition of the word 'feminist'. To me, feminist means a sexist female. One who - if they had the chance - would do the exact same thing but in vice versa. If however you simply support EQUAL female rights, then power to you, there is nothing wrong with that.

Personally I think the problem is in people. The developers of Duke Nukem are not sexist, they are simply responding to their audience. Personally, I loled when I saw the idea for a gametype "capture the babe", that doesn't make me a sexist.
No, I do not notice the sexism there because there isn't. I may be prejudiced, sure, but then agian, everytime I've tried to talk to a MAN about this they will always, at some point, say that exact same thing. It's not the women I've talked to, but the men. And it's proven right here, in these forums, that men actually believe this. Sure, maybe not all men, but most some men, hell, most men. If you are not one of those, well, sorry for lumping you in with the others.

Also, the "Most writers are male so they can't write decent female characters" excuse is full of shit. There have been countless authors in our history that have created fantastic female characters -- male authors. Just like lots of female writers have managed to create great male characters. I don't think this is an issue of can't -- because seriously, if a writer/developer cannot give a character a proper personality because of their sex, then they are really not very good -- as an issue of won't. And they won't because they are, like the majority of the gaming community, stuck on the idea that women don't play games and so no one would buy a game if they dared make an exceptional female character as the lead.

Your definition of 'feminism' couldn't be more flawed. It's not about being sexist towards men, but demanding MEN to stop being sexist towards US.

Dude, okay. Sexist does not equal a woman-hating, woman-bashing, 'go back to the kitchen you slut kind of person'. That's misogyny. The creators might not be sexist, but the "Capture the Babe" feature certainly is.
I was getting at the generalisation "men think", it may not have been meant the way In interpreted it, and to be honest I don't take any offence either, but I felt it needed to be pointed out in case it was meant the way I saw it.
You have a point, most men are dicks. I am however going to expand on this by saying most people are dicks.

I am speaking from the perspective of male author (or perhaps a wannabe, seeing as I've yet to finish a book) and personally I find it much easier to create a deep and interesting male character than a female one. Yes, that is due to my lack of talent and experience as a writer, but really, how much writing talent is there in the gaming industry? I'm not saying that you're wrong, I just do not see why someone wouldn't create an interesting character over a terrible one for their game were they capable.

My definition of feminism is based on the experiences I have had with people calling themselves feminists, therefore my definition is biased, I thought I acknowledged that by saying "to me". I am not saying that anyone who calls themselves feminists are just female sexists, I was pointing out what springs to mind both to me - and based on their reactions, some of this people on this board - hear the word 'feminist'

This last point is a difficult one, and I cannot argue it. Personally, I find "Capture the babe" funny, however I'm not the one being objectified. It's not meant to be taken seriously, but yes, it is sexist.