I'm not opposed to feminism per se. I certainly wouldn't object to seeing a strong, non-sexualized female hero in a game. However, I do oppose censorship in all its forms and I see the incessant whining from the feminist crowd against perceived sexism in games as a form of attempted censorship, just like Jack Thomson and his incessant whining about violence.aks100 said:
Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?
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The video game industry is "considered male" because it is. It always has been. Try to think objectively, unclouded by your experiences as a gamer gerl. The market for women is just not that significant, because most women aren't particularly interested in video games (nor computers for that matter until they turned into social status projectors, i.e. Facebook).MasochisticMuse said:
Oh, sweetie.FenrisDeSolar said:
Women like you are so adorable, mostly because you probably come from a position of priviledge. See, if one just sits and wait for something, chances are that nothing will happen. I mean, shit, this is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard. That's like saying that if I want a degree I should just sit down and wait for some University to feel like handing me one. No, sweetie, there are things you are supposed to try really hard in order to obtain. The just wait for it attitude is pathetic and lazy.
Oh wait! Games inspired by gender roles are being made! That must mean things are just fine! No, no. The fact that games like Cooking Mama are being marketed towards women are not an example of how equality is coming, but rather, an example of how developers still think women behave. They assume girls will like it because it's pink and it involves food and yay! Fuck that. If equality was really coming this way as you say, then Dragon Age and Mass Effect would not use the MALE character to advertise the games. But nope, girls don't like shooting things or fighting evil, so no trailers or covers including the female characters!
Shit, even if men were a glaring majority in gaming, that would not excuse the lack of female leads -- unless you take into account the blatan sexism in our society that is not going to magically go away. Again, if sexism was not present and active, men would have no problem playing female characters in the same way we tend to have no problems playing and relating to male characters.
Hoping that shit goes away will not make it go away. And the women who stood up to give you the right to put down the movement didn't achieve what they did by just sitting around and taking the crumbs of rights society felt like throwing at them. (Holy run on sentences, batman. But fuck it, don't want to proofread)
Shit dude, I typed out that big pile o' text and this is all I get? C'mon, gimme something to work with, man.angelsmash said:
I'm aware that it is a male industry. My point is that it doesn't need to be. Part of the reason that women don't game is because, as you said, gaming has always been geared towards males; however, if there were more female-friendly games on the market, I have no doubt that a considerable percentage of women would pick up the hobby.angelsmash said:
And to be clear, by "female-friendly" games, I mean games that would
a) allow you to play as a woman
b) have a cast of characters that evenly represent both genders
c) characterize women as diversely as men are characterized (depicting women as 2-dimensional sex kittens is fine, but they should by no means be the only type of female character)
Please do not give me titles if I have not identified with them myself. I am not a "gamer girl" as that label has a number of stereotypical connotations associated with it that do not apply to me; I am merely a female who also happens to play games.angelsmash said:
Ah... Fuck it I am going to hit the heart of the situation, Please keep in mind I will try my best to not be sexist.
As a few before have hit at, Or come close to the issue is of course in equality itself. Men and women are different biologically, And in the way they view situations. Of course the second of these is enforced by the "Gender Role" and society double standards. However bio-logical differences effect us as well and define us as a person. Now at this point you must be thinking "Bah, This is a bunch of crap. How does this relate to the topic" However its the very heart of it. As genders we are different. So when we push towards equality, Well its not always best.
Now assuming you read that and had not already put yourself in a mind set "Hes a Bastard kill him" I think that pulling us close in equality relating to job opportunities and in certain social situations, And pay of people is correct. A person in that respect is spoused to be treated as equals as were human. However when we push towards things that are normally "One groups Territory" people get mad and view it as different and get angry and resent it. Because humans do not like change. Obviously they will try and reject it. However before I go further its time to talk about society double standard.
Well start off with a few common ones that At least in my case were taught in early childhood
"Men should always hold doors for girls" or "Never hit a girl" or even the one that is not a saying but however is done and this would be men always paying the bill for the girls. While, A few of these would be considered common courtesy, Actually excluding the "Don't punch girls" as you should never punch anyone without a justified reason. Carrying on, Its odd however that its only with one party. That males are expected to do these things however females are not. Now before anyone get pissed saying "That is not fair, Your only signaling out men" women have the same thing as well. However I'm not as familiar with them as a women is after all I'm a a white male. Anyways.... Some examples of this is the spoused fascination with "Shiny Things", Rings earrings and necklaces. Now personally I don't see any reason for this after all I think its worthless pieces of crap excluding a wedding ring as they are a symbol of something(Even if not honored fully by both parties). I believe this to be a thing that society pushes onto women. After all its a traditions.
Now going back to my main point, Gaming has long been a thing for white males, It cannot be denied and even if (I shall make up a fake figure here, As I'm actually not sure of this) 30%? of players of a certain game are female, Excluding a few other percents depending on what the game is... As this can all be changed, The majority is usually white males still. Now that being demanding more intuitive characters for females is reasonable, Of course before that we need to make sure in general that EVERY character has enough depth to them to sink with. Hell if a company doesn't have enough of a budget to make more then one character with depth for whatever reason theres no reason to blame thing for having some character they were clearly going to make better be something stupid.
Alright ill admit that my paragraph above was probably bad with my bias... However the point remains that as long as a characters good, People should be generally happy. Now to continue on, After at least I hope to have established that both men and females are different I wish to point out that as a male I have less enthusiasm playing a female. Even with a deep personality shes different from me, And I'm comfortable with what was and what I'm used to. I'm human and so this is natural. However in a few rare cases, Such as believe it or not lighting from final fantasy 13, I didn't mind she obviously had her own personalty and token out of my preferred role I found to have liked her a bit for who she was and how here personality is. That isn't to say however that I wasn't to play female characters, Hell no. I prefer male characters for the simple reason that they are fairly the same, At least in the way they view the world. With a few expectations. And this was imposed upon me by the double standard, My gender role and biological nature.
And to continue, Before I get flammed I have to view the other side, And try to see it through there eyes or I'm not going to solve anything. As afore mentioned the market is targeted toward white males, And still is as they are the mass. However If I were constantly forced into situations to play a person that I am not or cannot directly identify with on other levels it woulddrive me mad and cause me to fuck up my xbox360 effectively put me out of my comfort zone and make me feel excluded or ignored.
And this raises a question, To what point do we determine we are equal enough and let it rest (And yes I know there will always be some person who doesn't agree with this)
At least that is my opinion on the matter, If you disagree with anything I said, Please tell me so.
As a few before have hit at, Or come close to the issue is of course in equality itself. Men and women are different biologically, And in the way they view situations. Of course the second of these is enforced by the "Gender Role" and society double standards. However bio-logical differences effect us as well and define us as a person. Now at this point you must be thinking "Bah, This is a bunch of crap. How does this relate to the topic" However its the very heart of it. As genders we are different. So when we push towards equality, Well its not always best.
Now assuming you read that and had not already put yourself in a mind set "Hes a Bastard kill him" I think that pulling us close in equality relating to job opportunities and in certain social situations, And pay of people is correct. A person in that respect is spoused to be treated as equals as were human. However when we push towards things that are normally "One groups Territory" people get mad and view it as different and get angry and resent it. Because humans do not like change. Obviously they will try and reject it. However before I go further its time to talk about society double standard.
Well start off with a few common ones that At least in my case were taught in early childhood
"Men should always hold doors for girls" or "Never hit a girl" or even the one that is not a saying but however is done and this would be men always paying the bill for the girls. While, A few of these would be considered common courtesy, Actually excluding the "Don't punch girls" as you should never punch anyone without a justified reason. Carrying on, Its odd however that its only with one party. That males are expected to do these things however females are not. Now before anyone get pissed saying "That is not fair, Your only signaling out men" women have the same thing as well. However I'm not as familiar with them as a women is after all I'm a a white male. Anyways.... Some examples of this is the spoused fascination with "Shiny Things", Rings earrings and necklaces. Now personally I don't see any reason for this after all I think its worthless pieces of crap excluding a wedding ring as they are a symbol of something(Even if not honored fully by both parties). I believe this to be a thing that society pushes onto women. After all its a traditions.
Now going back to my main point, Gaming has long been a thing for white males, It cannot be denied and even if (I shall make up a fake figure here, As I'm actually not sure of this) 30%? of players of a certain game are female, Excluding a few other percents depending on what the game is... As this can all be changed, The majority is usually white males still. Now that being demanding more intuitive characters for females is reasonable, Of course before that we need to make sure in general that EVERY character has enough depth to them to sink with. Hell if a company doesn't have enough of a budget to make more then one character with depth for whatever reason theres no reason to blame thing for having some character they were clearly going to make better be something stupid.
Alright ill admit that my paragraph above was probably bad with my bias... However the point remains that as long as a characters good, People should be generally happy. Now to continue on, After at least I hope to have established that both men and females are different I wish to point out that as a male I have less enthusiasm playing a female. Even with a deep personality shes different from me, And I'm comfortable with what was and what I'm used to. I'm human and so this is natural. However in a few rare cases, Such as believe it or not lighting from final fantasy 13, I didn't mind she obviously had her own personalty and token out of my preferred role I found to have liked her a bit for who she was and how here personality is. That isn't to say however that I wasn't to play female characters, Hell no. I prefer male characters for the simple reason that they are fairly the same, At least in the way they view the world. With a few expectations. And this was imposed upon me by the double standard, My gender role and biological nature.
And to continue, Before I get flammed I have to view the other side, And try to see it through there eyes or I'm not going to solve anything. As afore mentioned the market is targeted toward white males, And still is as they are the mass. However If I were constantly forced into situations to play a person that I am not or cannot directly identify with on other levels it would
And this raises a question, To what point do we determine we are equal enough and let it rest (And yes I know there will always be some person who doesn't agree with this)
At least that is my opinion on the matter, If you disagree with anything I said, Please tell me so.
This is confusing cause and effect (which is a huge problem with feminist-minded women). As I said, it's not that games are "geared towards males" and thus most game players are men, it's that most game players are men in the first place and thus you get a characteristically male product. Hollywood production studios can reliably predict who'll turn out to see a film because certain genres, for whatever reasons, just don't appeal to women (and games themselves are really more like a niche film genre rather than an entire categorically different line of industry). Efforts to "reach out" to women in films and games are crippled at the offset because women are psychosexually inclined towards intrigue, social interaction, a use of sex appeal and submissiveness. This is why Ripley in Alien was really just a man in drag (and one should note that women still weren't enthused over the film).MasochisticMuse said:
Ultimately this confusion of cause and effect is why the world goes on without any of this stuff making any difference. At heart, these women are demanding respect so that they can express themselves as full-bodied, personable and likable people. It never seems to strike them that perhaps if they became likable people first, the respect they supposedly want would follow.
Thing is there is a large percentage of the videogame fan base IS female, as large as 40% some sources say.angelsmash said:
http://edugamesresearch.com/blog/2008/07/23/esa-survey-malefemale-gamer-ratio-is-6040-average-age-is-35/
People have got to stop saying things based on assumptions instead of doing the research.
So if there was equality, then Dragon Age and Mass Effect would not have used men in the ads. Yeah, you know that is not how equality actually works, right ViaGalactica? It's not "If you show a man instead of a woman, it is sexist." Because the same can be said for using a female character instead of a male one. Just because the character advertised happens to be male, does not make it sexist. In no way were the commercials making women look bad, so it is not sexist. Everyone is one gender or the other, save for the very few people with a certain condition. The commercial is not showing a man doing all this stuff instead of a woman. Rather, it is a hero that HAPPENS to be a man. So what, because someone has male genitals they have to step aside and let a woman stand in the spotlight? Seriously, what possible thing did the character being a male in the commercial impact at all on the gameplay footage? If the gender of the character in a commercial for a game is really that much of a big deal for you, you have a long way to go. It's not like the characters pulled out their junk and flopped it around and smacked women with it in the video. It was just a person that happens to be a man. And if you really want to go down this road, how about this. At what point did you know for sure it was a man? I have seen plenty of butch women that could easily pass for men. And hell, it could have been a hermaphrodite. It was a short commercial and there was no way for you to know for sure.
To start please tone it down and stop making personal attacks on other users. It is very rude, it doesn't help anyone's view of feminists, and you sound incredibly condescending, which is not helping keep this civil at all and it detracts from some of the points you are making, many of which are good ones.ViaGalactica said:
First I agree with your comment on Cooking Mama that is extremely sexist, however it is not indicative of all developers any more than one nasty extremist is of a whole population.
Second while I agree that they should show the female characters for advertising games like Dragon Age, they are companies and it is up to them who they focus on as their main target audience. They chose to market it to men because of long-lasting stereotypes, but those sterotypes have made them money in the past and as a business that is what they are after. They care about profits, not being politically correct.
The same goes for why there are more male leads. Game developers believe they will make more money that way so they do it. It does excuse it because it is their product and they can do what they want with it. Should they? No. But to them it is a sure way to profit.
Men are perfectly okay with playing female characters as well and it is blatant sexist in itself for you to generalize that they aren't. Women are no less sexist than men as it stands, regardless of whether or not it shows. Maybe people notice men the most because we tend to be more violent and obnoxious about it. Personally I don't know.
Also if you are going to reference the Women's Rights Movement it should be pointed out that it had its darker points too, including arguements between split groups, militant feminists in England, and discrimination against men at times. That being said it also had high points, nonviolent protest, incredible organization and dedication, and some amazingly bright minds. (And I completely lost my train of thought apologies there)
Either way those women stood up for equal rights and pulled off something incredible historically, however at this point in time while women are discriminated in pay, in popular culture, and in treatment at the workplace, men are also discriminated against. Perhaps not nearly as much but they are. Men tend to lose custody in divorce cases, they are expected to treat women better than they would treat any man (you may not agree, but as a guy I know quite well how people react if you treat a girl who is being nasty the same way you treat a guy), and they often take a larger hit in divorce pay outs.
Point is what feminists need to focus on is equality both ways, not just one, and there are plenty of guys who would be willing to help.(And sorry I think I got somewhat condescending myself)
More on topic I think people oppose feminism in gaming because they don't see an issue with how things are. It doesn't mean there aren't issues, but when you don't think something is broken and someone tells you to fix it you tend to ignore them.
These thread always seem to depress me because for every man who is like 'yeah we want to be inclusive and have women included in our hobby' there are at least 10 men pouring the hate on women and being insulting and saying thigs like 'they just give me free kills on call of duty'.
I find it curious that men don't like women gamers being considered as special or different and then proceed to seperate us out anyway saying we are feminazi's and we want to take away thier precious gaming industry. Guys...listen...no guys really... It's one or the other.
We can either all be gamers or we can be girl gamers and considered apart you can't have it both ways. Personally I want to be considered 'equal' Is that the right word? Included? maybe. I don't want to be hated on for being a woman as much as I don't want some guy flirting with me or giving me wow gold just becuase he hears a female voice.
Most women who play games don't care whether male Hawke gets the cover of DA:2 or some protagonists boobies are hanging out. Hell I modded my Fallout character to have a skin tight ripped stealth suit with a white ponytail and dressed Charon up like the Mysterious Stranger.
We just want to play games and not be poked at for it or abused. Alot of the men saying sexist comments in this thread wouldn't dream of being rascist. Well here is a clue, it makes us feel the exact same way
Just let us join in?
I find it curious that men don't like women gamers being considered as special or different and then proceed to seperate us out anyway saying we are feminazi's and we want to take away thier precious gaming industry. Guys...listen...no guys really... It's one or the other.
We can either all be gamers or we can be girl gamers and considered apart you can't have it both ways. Personally I want to be considered 'equal' Is that the right word? Included? maybe. I don't want to be hated on for being a woman as much as I don't want some guy flirting with me or giving me wow gold just becuase he hears a female voice.
Most women who play games don't care whether male Hawke gets the cover of DA:2 or some protagonists boobies are hanging out. Hell I modded my Fallout character to have a skin tight ripped stealth suit with a white ponytail and dressed Charon up like the Mysterious Stranger.
We just want to play games and not be poked at for it or abused. Alot of the men saying sexist comments in this thread wouldn't dream of being rascist. Well here is a clue, it makes us feel the exact same way
Just let us join in?
If you actually read the study, it's far less impressive. Think about it: it's a 1,200 sample phone survey, and they intentionally sought households that owned a console. Of course the sex split will be roughly equal: any question would under those circumstances. Not only that, but their definition of "video game" apparently includes not only Bejeweled and Diner Dash but Mahjong. With a pool this wide, you could just about say everyone dips their toes into the video gaming pool.Lead Herring said:
I don't think it helps that there is no industry-accepted short hand for making a male attractive to the heterosexual female audience. With a female character, the short hand is T&A. With a male character, they can be muscular or they can be more slender and athletic, or cuddly, or a bad boy (in either sense of the term) or a genteel and compassionate individual. Because female sexuality has been denied for so long, the sudden emergence has produced so much variety that it can be difficult to take in. Of course not all heterosexual males are attracted to women shaped like distorted hourglasses wearing skimpy outfits and with personalities like wet paper bags. The 'eye candy' short hand is still prevelant, and still a focus.draconiansundae said:
I'm not sure I'd ever buy a game for the male eye-candy alone, just as I'd never buy one for the female eye-candy, but I'd like to see them on the market.
We 'whine' about those as well, actually. See, if Duke Nukem was the only game in which this is the case it wouldn't be an issue, it'd be a lone incident. The issue is that the industry overall consistently and persistently throws up games in which this behaviour is encouraged.John Marcone said:
Oh really now? I'm a real feminist too and I assure you, it's still very relevant. While Yale fraternities are preaching that "no means yes, yes means anal" we still need feminism. While non-cis, non-heterosexual students are still persectued for not adhering to gender norms to the point where they are 6 or more times more likely to commit suicide, we still need feminism. While what the victim was wearing is an excuse for rapists, we still need feminism. While men are still refused monetary support and encouragement to become primary carers we still need feminism.
And these are contemporary western issues. Not even starting on the global ones that feminism is always relevant to such as the battle against arranged marriage, infant genital mutilation, sexual slavery and the systematic use of rape as a weapon of terror in war.
Let's see now. How many myths about the feminine have we here? The automatic assumption that women desire marriage is the most prominent one. Not to mention the idea that all it takes is a potentially false proposition to turn a woman into a whore. Really? Are you so set in that vein as to believe this even in the light of the increasing number of people of both genders choosing to avoid that institution due to moral issues with it? How about the near-limitless quantity of feminist argument against marriage as an instution as it originates from principles of controlling female sexuality and the definition of women as property of their fathers, then their husbands? I call horseshit on that picture.
Do remember that not all women are feminists. I have never met a female feminist who would do what that picture suggests, and I've met a lot of women who don't claim to be feminists who would call horseshit on it as well.
White, heterosexual males perhaps. They're not exactly a majority of the population, they're just the ones with the privilege to believe that if it's for them, it's for everyone and if everyone doesn't enjoy it then there's something wrong with them or they're bitching unnecessarily. This is the very essence of endemic privilege, that the second something includes or targets a group other than that, it's deemed less valuable or a betrayal. Look at the bullshit that got thrown around when Bioware put non-mandatory homosexual relationships into Dragon Age, including relationships which were only directed at females. Even heterosexual females. How many games do we see in which the usual protagonist is not white and male and below 50 and heterosexual, and this is not considered revoltionary, devious, betrayal of the 'target audience' or innovative?
Not all games need to be about you. If I had to give a succinct definition of what feminism is currently trying to do, it would be "to normalise non-cis-male perspectives and people." This means shifting industries from a 'core demographic' of heterosexual white males under 50. There's no evidence to suggest that women, for example, wouldn't be a core demographic for games which target them. Who are you to say that is not a valuable thing to aim for?
I like you. Lets be forum buddies !FenrisDeSolar said:
In all seriousness. I was about to rant on this after reporting her; for making personal attacks. It turns out you are awake and in full bite-back mode
.... You have won this thread, However I feel it right to say that you shouldn't have to beg to ask like that to be included. And feel obligated at this point to point out that this thread itself isn't merely going to solve the issue. Best scenario it changes a few extremiests minds.xXxJessicaxXx said:These thread always seem to depress me because for every man who is like 'yeah we want to be inclusive and have women included in our hobby' there are at least 10 men pouring the hate on women and being insulting and saying thigs like 'they just give me free kills on call of duty'.
I find it curious that men don't like women gamers being considered as special or different and then proceed to seperate us out anyway saying we are feminazi's and we want to take away thier precious gaming industry. Guys...listen...no guys really... It's one or the other.
We can either all be gamers or we can be girl gamers and considered apart you can't have it both ways. Personally I want to be considered 'equal' Is that the right word? Included? maybe. I don't want to be hated on for being a woman as much as I don't want some guy flirting with me or giving me wow gold just becuase he hears a female voice.
Most women who play games don't care whether male Hawke gets the cover of DA:2 or some protagonists boobies are hanging out. Hell I modded my Fallout character to have a skin tight ripped stealth suit with a white ponytail and dressed Charon up like the Mysterious Stranger.
We just want to play games and not be poked at for it or abused. Alot of the men saying sexist comments in this thread wouldn't dream of being rascist. Well here is a clue, it makes us feel the exact same way
Maybe I can approach this from a different tack.
I think people in general can become hostile or defensive when they're judged on the effects of their actions, rather than their intentions. Especially when the results of their actions aren't immediately visible to them.
Consider the person(s) responsible for that Gamestation ad. Does anyone think that they consciously thought, even for a second, "Ha, this will put those women in their place" or "This will make women feel uncomfortable so they'll stay away from our Boys' club"?
No... They probably didn't even think as far as "this will cater to our primarily male demographic", honestly. They most likely thought, "this will get a laugh", maybe as much as "this will appeal to the kind of people I typically see smack-talking while playing FPSs."
Should they have thought about it more? Well, that's certainly an open question. But it does explain why people are defensive and hostile- because they've gone straight from "Heh, we're joking around" to "Holy @$%&, shields up!"
Now, conversely, feminism. I'm rather partial to the version of feminism that says "feminism is the radical belief that women are people too," that women should have the same rights and responsibilities as men, and that real feminism is about being empowered to make choices-- even if those choices may be ones that other women wouldn't make, even if those choices put the chooser in what some would see as "stereotypical" female roles, and even if some feminists might feel those choices are somehow "degrading".
But it would be foolish to suggest that that's the only form of feminism out there. And some of the more radical feminists, while not necessarily anything like the majority, are loud.
At times it seems like a lot of discussions, especially on the Internet, don't start at reasonable places like "this makes me uncomfortable". We jump over "this makes me feel unwelcome", rocket past "this makes women feel threatened", and land somewhere in the middle of "How dare you perpetuate the Rape Culture, you (stream of profanity)." When you mention "feminism in gaming", this is immediately what some people envision- "best to keep that beast outside entirely." Which sidelines a lot of reasonable people and room for compromise, unfortunately.
So back to that whole, "intentions vs. results" thing. There is, unfortunately, no easy way to ascertain what someone's intentions actually were when they started on something, and plenty of people have ducked back behind the premise that they had good intentions and things went to hell in spite of those intentions when such was never the case. But it would help both sides a lot if we started with the assumption that harm was not the goal- that the "perpetrator" was not trying to create something hostile to females and that the feminist, in turn, is not really trying to pin blame or make an accusation or use the issue as a weapon to scourge the entire opposite sex, but is genuinely concerned and would like to make things better for everyone.
I think people in general can become hostile or defensive when they're judged on the effects of their actions, rather than their intentions. Especially when the results of their actions aren't immediately visible to them.
Consider the person(s) responsible for that Gamestation ad. Does anyone think that they consciously thought, even for a second, "Ha, this will put those women in their place" or "This will make women feel uncomfortable so they'll stay away from our Boys' club"?
No... They probably didn't even think as far as "this will cater to our primarily male demographic", honestly. They most likely thought, "this will get a laugh", maybe as much as "this will appeal to the kind of people I typically see smack-talking while playing FPSs."
Should they have thought about it more? Well, that's certainly an open question. But it does explain why people are defensive and hostile- because they've gone straight from "Heh, we're joking around" to "Holy @$%&, shields up!"
Now, conversely, feminism. I'm rather partial to the version of feminism that says "feminism is the radical belief that women are people too," that women should have the same rights and responsibilities as men, and that real feminism is about being empowered to make choices-- even if those choices may be ones that other women wouldn't make, even if those choices put the chooser in what some would see as "stereotypical" female roles, and even if some feminists might feel those choices are somehow "degrading".
But it would be foolish to suggest that that's the only form of feminism out there. And some of the more radical feminists, while not necessarily anything like the majority, are loud.
At times it seems like a lot of discussions, especially on the Internet, don't start at reasonable places like "this makes me uncomfortable". We jump over "this makes me feel unwelcome", rocket past "this makes women feel threatened", and land somewhere in the middle of "How dare you perpetuate the Rape Culture, you (stream of profanity)." When you mention "feminism in gaming", this is immediately what some people envision- "best to keep that beast outside entirely." Which sidelines a lot of reasonable people and room for compromise, unfortunately.
So back to that whole, "intentions vs. results" thing. There is, unfortunately, no easy way to ascertain what someone's intentions actually were when they started on something, and plenty of people have ducked back behind the premise that they had good intentions and things went to hell in spite of those intentions when such was never the case. But it would help both sides a lot if we started with the assumption that harm was not the goal- that the "perpetrator" was not trying to create something hostile to females and that the feminist, in turn, is not really trying to pin blame or make an accusation or use the issue as a weapon to scourge the entire opposite sex, but is genuinely concerned and would like to make things better for everyone.
All I'm saying is that it's a bad idea to associate a movement with that definition, it just hurts their credibility. I'm starting to think what they need is a rebranding, a new name without all the negative connotations. I would recommend the term Radical Feminist for when your referring to the aggressive types, that way other people wont pick up that use aswell.Angry_squirrel said: