Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?
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Oh diddums did someone not like hearing the truth?mirasiel said:
The problem is that women have equality under the law now, people of different skin colours have equality under the law now, the cultural equality will come in time, they've just to wait for the old bigots to die off, so will they PLEASE SHUT UP ABOUT IT.
I mean honestly there is only so much whining one can take before you just want to oppose someone out of pure spite.
^^poster above, bigots have children too, who will grow up to be bigots. I agree that we need to have some patience, but ignoring a problem won't help it go away, and could lend it credence as being acceptable.
Anyway.
I don't think anyone in the gaming industry, or consumers as a whole, are *against* feminism. Like, if you ask them they'll be like, 'equal rights for all' etc etc.
But in practice I think a lot of devs are ignorant of what their female fans want out of a game, and there is an element of institutionalised misogyny, hence a series of recent distasteful ad campaigns.
Because their target audience is stereotyped as beings nerdy boys on the cusp of puberty (and because that's what a lot of developers once were, when introduced to gaming in their youth) and because they have a habit of catering to that audience, it's an easy rut to get stuck in and to come to think that THAT'S ALL GAMES CAN BE. Gaming needs to grow up.
Anyway.
I don't think anyone in the gaming industry, or consumers as a whole, are *against* feminism. Like, if you ask them they'll be like, 'equal rights for all' etc etc.
But in practice I think a lot of devs are ignorant of what their female fans want out of a game, and there is an element of institutionalised misogyny, hence a series of recent distasteful ad campaigns.
Because their target audience is stereotyped as beings nerdy boys on the cusp of puberty (and because that's what a lot of developers once were, when introduced to gaming in their youth) and because they have a habit of catering to that audience, it's an easy rut to get stuck in and to come to think that THAT'S ALL GAMES CAN BE. Gaming needs to grow up.
Like any movement or group, whether it be feminism, a religion (or indeed atheism),or whatever any group is genrally defined, often unfairly, by its extremes. Extremes are often more vocal and at least one of a groups extremist agendas is genrally more divisive than the groups mainstream.
Like alot of groups fighting for equality parts femism has on occasion have lost sight of what equality really means or favoured so called positive discimination.
The first is simple, treating two groups equally does not nesserially mean treating them the same, with men and women there are easy examples, current building regulations for say theatres mandate a certain number of tolets a venue should have, the regulations vary on a number of differnt reasons, but in general the numbers are diffrent between men and women based around a similar number of each, this is because biologically there are differences. The relitive numbers are designed to give under normal circumstances roughly equal service levels, and they do, up until bowel upsets come into play then men find themselves at a disadvantage.
The second is complex, discrimanting postively for one group automatically means you are discriminating negatively against another. Discrimination is only valid when the grounds on which you are discriminatimng are valid, modern common usage of the word implies that you are in itself making said judgement on grounds that have no basis to the reason the judgemn is being made.
Two wrongs do not make a right and so positive discrimation is indefensible, and is at best mearly shifting discrimination, at worst smacks of revenge. People who have suffered from it should know better.
Like alot of groups fighting for equality parts femism has on occasion have lost sight of what equality really means or favoured so called positive discimination.
The first is simple, treating two groups equally does not nesserially mean treating them the same, with men and women there are easy examples, current building regulations for say theatres mandate a certain number of tolets a venue should have, the regulations vary on a number of differnt reasons, but in general the numbers are diffrent between men and women based around a similar number of each, this is because biologically there are differences. The relitive numbers are designed to give under normal circumstances roughly equal service levels, and they do, up until bowel upsets come into play then men find themselves at a disadvantage.
The second is complex, discrimanting postively for one group automatically means you are discriminating negatively against another. Discrimination is only valid when the grounds on which you are discriminatimng are valid, modern common usage of the word implies that you are in itself making said judgement on grounds that have no basis to the reason the judgemn is being made.
Two wrongs do not make a right and so positive discrimation is indefensible, and is at best mearly shifting discrimination, at worst smacks of revenge. People who have suffered from it should know better.
This. This on toast.EvilPicnic said:
Also, I believe there's an element of possessiveness involved. The male demographic has been tended to for so long, a bridging of the gender inequalities and subsequent lack of that perceived entitlement is interpreted as a staggering imposition.
Here we go again, accuse male gamers of being 'nerdy boys on the cusp of puberty', and making fun of even game devs of having been nerdy boys. I thought gaming was already nerd-culture, or did that change when I wasn't looking.EvilPicnic said:
What, that's not fucking mysandrous to gang up like that on male gamers and male developers? Why do male gamers and male developers have to take all the heat for an entertainment factor you feel entitled to join in when they toiled and sweat to get the industry up and running without female guidance or support (unless you were married to a game developer, or supported the industry since its early days)? Again, I am going to reiterate an older point, don't fucking blame us, when there is enough room in the industry for you. Not as consumers (if you really feel the industry, is not up to your standards at this current point in times), but as creators, developers. We are living in a society where it's fucking easier to be female. As a male, I still feel the pressure of having balls. Oh, you like games, you little nerdy man-child. Oh, you are not into sport, you little nerdy man-child. Oh, you like anime, you little nerdy man-child.
This 'institutionalized misogny' as you call it, is not existent, or is it because not all games cater to you, hell, I don't play JRPGs because of the cutesy characters. Gaming is an escapism, and right now, it does not need to grow the fuck up.
Want it to evolve? Want it to be more accepting of you? Then suck it up, and join the damn industry, toil and sweat, just like those 'nerdy little man-childs' did once. There's enough room for all of us.
But don't you dare yap on about male gamers and developers being nerdy manliness-minus-one-mysognistic dicks.
I dunno because sexism is fun! Yes I make alot of sexist jokes, but don't worry I'm not a sexist, I don't think women should be chained in the kitchen, quite the contrary, being a masochist 
(Hope I spelled that right...)
(Hope I spelled that right...)
Feminist issues don't interest me. And femenist focused game websites really don't seem to have any substance beyond pushing their agenda. They don't really whether a game is any good and can't form decent criticism regardless.
History? Hah! It's already being written to suit the current generation, no longer is the context looked at, no now it's written so that children are forced to listen to how "ignorant" our forbears were, and how "enlightened" we are in comparison.mirasiel said:
Don't talk to me about history fool! I know far more about the subject then you could ever dream to understand.
So go cry in a corner or something and sob about how unfair life is in nations where people of all genders and races are treated equal under the law. Sob about how horrible it is, and forget how much the world has changed in a single century, yes do forget that and just keep whining like a little brat about how you didn't get a cherry ontop of your cake.
Fool! The world is full of whining fools!
I don't think games should become a vehicle for feminism. The focus should be on making them fun and capable of standing up to the snobs who look down upon the media. However, that doesn't mean improvements couldn't be made towards the depictions of characters of either gender; more strong female characters in games would help to balance out the passive talking cleavages that pass for love interests in many titles, while well-written male characters (and I mean with depth - not angst) would make a refreshing change from Blandy McHUGEBALLSSpace Marine - his personality is in his neck.
Many fighting games (Street Fighter seems quite good for not doing this) objectify women hugely. I'm not asking for everyone to fight in polo necks but some of the implants the characters have.... yeah. You can talk yourself blue in the face about Ivy's backs story but that doesn't excuse the designers constant obsession with inflating her proportions every new Soul Calibur. It's like they think no one will find her story interesting enough to concentrate on unless it's stuffed down the back of her thong. By the time VI comes out her tits'll probably burst unexpectedly like that Yoshi's Island balloon mini-game. It's insulting to consumers' intelligence.
Having said that, I think there are some characters that manage sexism well - if that's possible: both Bayonetta and Duke Nukem manage to be hilarious because of how over the top they are:
*I admit, I didn't want to play Bayonetta to begin with because of how objectified they made her in the adverts but that's more down to fault with the marketing than the character, who juggles bad ass, sexy, stylish and humour with great panache.
*Duke is well... he's called Duke Nukem - do people honestly take this seriously?
*Ming from Lost Odyssey doesn't er, 'dress for the cold' to put it mildly, but still manages to be an interesting character, whom I adored by the final disc.
Er yeah. So equality in gaming - good! Uber Feminism or Misogyny in games - bad! Although one place I'd like to see uber feminism in games is in those bloody DS titles for girls. How dare they think we only want to raise cyber babies/ dolphins/ ponies/ vegetables(or quit smoking - has anyone else noticed that's for ages three and up?), I'd rather play Metroid Prime Hunters on my pink DS thanks very much! Wankers.
Many fighting games (Street Fighter seems quite good for not doing this) objectify women hugely. I'm not asking for everyone to fight in polo necks but some of the implants the characters have.... yeah. You can talk yourself blue in the face about Ivy's backs story but that doesn't excuse the designers constant obsession with inflating her proportions every new Soul Calibur. It's like they think no one will find her story interesting enough to concentrate on unless it's stuffed down the back of her thong. By the time VI comes out her tits'll probably burst unexpectedly like that Yoshi's Island balloon mini-game. It's insulting to consumers' intelligence.
Having said that, I think there are some characters that manage sexism well - if that's possible: both Bayonetta and Duke Nukem manage to be hilarious because of how over the top they are:
*I admit, I didn't want to play Bayonetta to begin with because of how objectified they made her in the adverts but that's more down to fault with the marketing than the character, who juggles bad ass, sexy, stylish and humour with great panache.
*Duke is well... he's called Duke Nukem - do people honestly take this seriously?
*Ming from Lost Odyssey doesn't er, 'dress for the cold' to put it mildly, but still manages to be an interesting character, whom I adored by the final disc.
Er yeah. So equality in gaming - good! Uber Feminism or Misogyny in games - bad! Although one place I'd like to see uber feminism in games is in those bloody DS titles for girls. How dare they think we only want to raise cyber babies/ dolphins/ ponies/ vegetables(or quit smoking - has anyone else noticed that's for ages three and up?), I'd rather play Metroid Prime Hunters on my pink DS thanks very much! Wankers.
Perhaps it is the 'don't fix it if it ain't broken' thing, or the fact that we're just so used to the male stereotype it tkaes more effort to create a character with more deapth. I think it also has to do with the difference between how the male and female brain works. Now this doesn't apply to all, but this is a trend I've noticed along the gender rift between my friends; guys enjoy mindless action a lot more. It's not that they don't like deep characters, epic story telling, and irony. It's just they can still enjoy the simple stuff, and for some reason the second we try to tell a simple joke to a woman she feels insulted by it. If she didn't have to think about it, if it was simply an in-your-face statement, she can and will take it out of contex and find it offencive.
Conversely, girls can enjoy the mindless action too, but they're going to get bored with it quickly. Example; one guy friend and one girl friend of mine get the original Doom on their iphones at the same time. Girl friend beats it into submission in the same time as the guy friend does, then puts it down and forgets about it. Guy friend goes back and laughs at the BFG clearing entier rooms of baddies and going on chainsaw rampages. The girl did that too, but only on the first round. It's not that the guy is stupid, or the girl doesn't like that type of game, it's just that women tend to crave more. When I asked the girl why she doesn't play it anymore, she just shrugged and said it was boring after the first play-through. A few days later she got annoyed whenever she saw my guy friend still playing it.
It all comes down to the general tendancy that I've noticed in women to take something that's simple and overthink it to death, coming up with something that is horribly complicated. How do you make things complicated? Make it a problem. Take offence.
Women also tend to be more insecure in their place than men. Men, regardless of their personality and particular quirks, will almost always find a group of like-minded people and be free with themselves. They don't feel the need to hide bits and pieces of their personality, the insecurity that people might not like them for who they are. They get that there are plenty of humans out there and if one group don't work for him another will.
Women? They have an entier culture built on being insecure, fearful of being rejected by their friends, and acting to fit in. A stressed out woman, which is a near constant if she's working on top of all this, is all the more likely to balk at the first sign of an insult. Female gamers end up having their love of interactive entertainment either define them or be a guilty pleasure; when someone comes out and says 'Cheaper than your girlfriend' they're first offened that the ad wasn't aimed at them as well, shaking their place in the world as a gamer. Then they start overthinking it and get angry that they were referenced at all, taking it in all the wrong ways.
At least... that's my take on it.
Conversely, girls can enjoy the mindless action too, but they're going to get bored with it quickly. Example; one guy friend and one girl friend of mine get the original Doom on their iphones at the same time. Girl friend beats it into submission in the same time as the guy friend does, then puts it down and forgets about it. Guy friend goes back and laughs at the BFG clearing entier rooms of baddies and going on chainsaw rampages. The girl did that too, but only on the first round. It's not that the guy is stupid, or the girl doesn't like that type of game, it's just that women tend to crave more. When I asked the girl why she doesn't play it anymore, she just shrugged and said it was boring after the first play-through. A few days later she got annoyed whenever she saw my guy friend still playing it.
It all comes down to the general tendancy that I've noticed in women to take something that's simple and overthink it to death, coming up with something that is horribly complicated. How do you make things complicated? Make it a problem. Take offence.
Women also tend to be more insecure in their place than men. Men, regardless of their personality and particular quirks, will almost always find a group of like-minded people and be free with themselves. They don't feel the need to hide bits and pieces of their personality, the insecurity that people might not like them for who they are. They get that there are plenty of humans out there and if one group don't work for him another will.
Women? They have an entier culture built on being insecure, fearful of being rejected by their friends, and acting to fit in. A stressed out woman, which is a near constant if she's working on top of all this, is all the more likely to balk at the first sign of an insult. Female gamers end up having their love of interactive entertainment either define them or be a guilty pleasure; when someone comes out and says 'Cheaper than your girlfriend' they're first offened that the ad wasn't aimed at them as well, shaking their place in the world as a gamer. Then they start overthinking it and get angry that they were referenced at all, taking it in all the wrong ways.
At least... that's my take on it.
Well since I can take the terM "Feminism" to mean practically ANYTHING, and the amount of hypocrisy and double standards practiced by some of it's followers makes it a hard subject to stomach, also we can have strong female characters WITHOUT having to shove a feminist agenda down the player's throat. Overall I'm just saying that it's unnecessary in a videogame since you can get a similar message across without having to go through all the "Women have it so hard", and "Men have it all", I can tell you that's RARELY the case (Go to a bar, and than just watch as the men grovel at your feet). Also before you accuse me of being quote, "A chauvinist pig" I'll let you know I was raised by a single mother, I respect women, but when all you do is angst about how "Being a woman is SOOOOOO hard in today's society", today's society is a huge improvement, if you tried having a feminist agenda 200 years agos you know would happen..
The complaints just ring hollow (I am aware that being a woman is physically more painful than being a man, but that's a moot point in this overall argument). Look I'm just saying feel free to have strong female characters, I support that & that's all you should need to get the point across that women are more than a pair of tits and some legs.
I'm against feminism as a whole because it's just a support group for people who are sexist towards men.
I am also against sexism and the "short brown hair muscular caucasian male" stereotypicla character. When I saw that add, for a few seconds I thought it meant "money spent on girlfriend>money spent on game", but then I realized what they were really going for, and that it was straight up sexist.
I don't think people support sexism. The problem is due to the majority of gamers, a game featuring a SBHMCM protagonist is likely going to sell better than say, a skinny Hispanic American with a combover, or a women is her thirties who has lost her figure. I personally want to play more games that get farther away from the SBHMCMP. It's all about reaching the lowest common denominator. If we want more games like Saint's Row 2 that allow you to make your character basically whatever you want, or like Half Life where the protagonist is skinny with glasses, then we have to stop buying games like Gears of War.
Now, when it comes to using women's sex appeal to sell games, yes, it does happen all too often, and it is wrong, but the male characters are going through a similar treatment. What do you think we guys think when we see someone like Kratos walking around shirtless and ripped killing people? We idolize those kinds of bodies, and compare them to our own. We try to hit the gym more and go through tons of protein mix, but we are never going to meet our own expectations because character designers can design characters to be as ripped as possible, without going through years of weightlifting. Some of us even get to the point where we feel ashamed of our bodies. Besides, would women rather have a muscular powerhouse for some eyecandy while playing a game, or just some skinny twig boy?
But more to the root of why the way women are treated in games is so bad is because the way they are objectified. Giant freak of nature titties, perfect asses, long legs, tons of makeup, and let's not forget, video game women do not have to wax hair. It's like saying "Hey boys, women are objects for you to look at and eye rape, and if a woman is unattractive they are not even worth your time." Then you have the unreal standards impsoed upon women. I'm sure almost all of us can agree that sexism is bad.
The problem? Sex sells. "If you are going to play video games, you might as well have some eye candy, right?" I am not immune to this. In Dragon Age 2, Isabella is one of the best features in the game. I got a gaming magazine with Laura Croft on the front, her face covered in mud, and after a few seconds checking out the pictures, I wanted to get the game. I don't even play Tomb Raider. Not unless you count perving out to it as a child back on the PS1.
So where do we go from here? Well, look around. Models advertise products, football teams have cheerleaders, MMA fights have girls in bikinis for no reason. Sex, friggin, sells. It's not right, but it does. We are not going to be able to keep the T&A out of games until we can get that out of other things as well. All we can do is try to avoid blatant sexism like that advertisement. Don't buy games based on jiggle physics, but by quality. Demand more realistic characters from designers. Realism is, unfortunately, pretty big in gaming right now, so why don't we have realistic characters?
I am also against sexism and the "short brown hair muscular caucasian male" stereotypicla character. When I saw that add, for a few seconds I thought it meant "money spent on girlfriend>money spent on game", but then I realized what they were really going for, and that it was straight up sexist.
I don't think people support sexism. The problem is due to the majority of gamers, a game featuring a SBHMCM protagonist is likely going to sell better than say, a skinny Hispanic American with a combover, or a women is her thirties who has lost her figure. I personally want to play more games that get farther away from the SBHMCMP. It's all about reaching the lowest common denominator. If we want more games like Saint's Row 2 that allow you to make your character basically whatever you want, or like Half Life where the protagonist is skinny with glasses, then we have to stop buying games like Gears of War.
Now, when it comes to using women's sex appeal to sell games, yes, it does happen all too often, and it is wrong, but the male characters are going through a similar treatment. What do you think we guys think when we see someone like Kratos walking around shirtless and ripped killing people? We idolize those kinds of bodies, and compare them to our own. We try to hit the gym more and go through tons of protein mix, but we are never going to meet our own expectations because character designers can design characters to be as ripped as possible, without going through years of weightlifting. Some of us even get to the point where we feel ashamed of our bodies. Besides, would women rather have a muscular powerhouse for some eyecandy while playing a game, or just some skinny twig boy?
But more to the root of why the way women are treated in games is so bad is because the way they are objectified. Giant freak of nature titties, perfect asses, long legs, tons of makeup, and let's not forget, video game women do not have to wax hair. It's like saying "Hey boys, women are objects for you to look at and eye rape, and if a woman is unattractive they are not even worth your time." Then you have the unreal standards impsoed upon women. I'm sure almost all of us can agree that sexism is bad.
The problem? Sex sells. "If you are going to play video games, you might as well have some eye candy, right?" I am not immune to this. In Dragon Age 2, Isabella is one of the best features in the game. I got a gaming magazine with Laura Croft on the front, her face covered in mud, and after a few seconds checking out the pictures, I wanted to get the game. I don't even play Tomb Raider. Not unless you count perving out to it as a child back on the PS1.
So where do we go from here? Well, look around. Models advertise products, football teams have cheerleaders, MMA fights have girls in bikinis for no reason. Sex, friggin, sells. It's not right, but it does. We are not going to be able to keep the T&A out of games until we can get that out of other things as well. All we can do is try to avoid blatant sexism like that advertisement. Don't buy games based on jiggle physics, but by quality. Demand more realistic characters from designers. Realism is, unfortunately, pretty big in gaming right now, so why don't we have realistic characters?