Why are there no businessmen in the American comic book industry?

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Zontar

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So this is an issue that for me has been heating up for some time, but it's finally boiled over due to DC's latest gaff [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0eVa0oO-uo]. I just have to wonder, why the hell are there no businessmen in the American comic book industry?

For those who aren't aware either through not being a customer of the industry or from not being North American (the problem exsists in Canada due to the Marvel/DC market dominance, though it's not as bad due to large amounts of European and Japanese comic imports) the industry as a whole has been in decline for the past three or four decades. This came about as a result of the shift from comics from the supermarket/grocery store/gas station magazine rack to speciality stores that coincided with the industry-wide shift from the content of comic being aimed at children but enjoyable to all ages to being aimed at adults and only in some cases being enjoyable (or even appropriate) to all ages.

This period saw income for the comic book industry increase despite the generation growing up in the 80s not having an easy means of accessing it due to those who where already comic book readers spending more money per person on comics and starting to buy other things like expensive collectibles, graphic novels and other things you'll find in your local comic-con. This increase in income was only made larger by the speculator bubble, but I'm not going to go into that large issue that would quadruple the size of this post if I where to go into any detail. The long and short of it is the industry collapsed in the late 90s due to consumers leaving the consumer base due to age, there not being new readers to replace them, and the collapse of the speculator bubble which saw Marvel go bankrupt for a short while (which lead to one of the fasted and probably biggest comebacks by a company in the past 40 years, but again another story not for here).

So this lead to a problem come the 2000s. Income was way down for both companies (as well as the minor ones which saw many close altogether), and one was bankrupt. Now both companies had sound plans for keeping themselves from going under (DC was owned by Warner and so was easily able to stay afloat off cartoons, movies and merchandise, while Marvel was using their cut of the money from movie adaptations of their IP to fund what we today call the MCU). Now both where not going to go under with their plans, but they needed to keep their comics divisions in the green to justify their continued existence.

Now here's where things start to become head scratching. While DC had for years by that point had its financially and critically acclaimed DC Animated Universe and Marvel was setting up a movie studio, their respective comics divisions doubled down on the solution which had caused the industry to nearly collapse in the first place: catering and trying to be reliant on the late 20's/early 30's reader instead of trying to bring in readers who where younger who had grown up in the 90s immersed in the cartoons and early movie adaptations from the two companies. They did try to bring in new readers with things like Marvel's Ultimates, but that was aimed at late teens and adults. The few attempts at increasing readership wasn't helped by the fact that comic books almost exclusively advertise in other comic books, making awareness of new lines limited to those already in the consumer base.

This also led to the rise in crisis crossovers. Though they had been around since the 80s, the rise in them in the 00's was for one sole reason: to sell more comics by having the story spread out through as many as 200 comic books running in parallel (in what was usually an uncoordinated, incoherent mess) so people had to read comics they'd otherwise never had touched to get the whole story. For a long (and dark) time such crossovers where so prevalent they where happening just as often as not, and where getting more convoluted as time went on until DC finally just rebooted their whole universe and Marvel ran out of ideas and started redoing previous crossovers.

As anyone who has a high school level understanding of economics will tell you, this lead to even further drops in readership due to the fact that people who where not part of the consumer base being too intimidated to get in by the canon and crossovers, and those in the consumer base not to have to read 50 comics they didn't want to understand what was happening in the comics they followed, so either stopped reading during crossovers or stopped all together.

The past few years (since around 2010-2011 for the two companies) have seen another shift in the practice of the two companies which is head scratching. As it stands what keeps the industry going is that current fans are holding it up and comic book stores being easier to find now then ever before online. But the recent initiatives to try and get more readership from new groups has not been the most logical. Where simple business logic would dictate trying to make comics that children would like coupled with making them also accessible to said children (or more accurately, their parents) instead most of the changes of the past 5 years have been ones which alienate the old fans in an attempt to attract people from a demographic which holds no interest in comics (and the sales figures have shown this when taking Issue #1 sales spikes and post launch normalization into account).

So this has lead to each company having very questionable decisions such as Marvel's Thorina and DC's pulling of a Batwomen cover (though these problems are only the most visible and are FAR from the only ones) and as always the trend of the past few decades for readership continues its downturn despite movies and tv series both live action and animated making this the perfect time for a new golden age to start.

While watching all this I can only ask myself the simple question of the OP: where are the businessmen in the industry? Because Marvel and DC's comics have not acted in the way that companies being lead by those following the smell of stable profits (I mean seriously, how hard is it to try and have contracts with Walmart or other nation wide stores to have a few of your comic lines on their shelves next to the register? No way in hell they wouldn't be up for that given how fast that would sell as impulse buys).

Things are going to get a lot worst in the industry before they get better. Thank god France, Belgium and Japan didn't have their industries make the same mistakes.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Considering Thor, female and all, is currently one of Marvel's best selling series, outselling Uncanny X-men even (or All New X-men, if that's more your speed), and Ms Marvel being a very solid title both critically and sales wise, I'm thinking their business sense is doing just fine. http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/31093/top-300-comics-actual-february-2015

And those are just sales to Comics shops. Signs point to online distribution to those titles being huge.
 

Fox12

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The industry is designed to fail. Comics offer less bang for your buck. I bought a $10 game that lasted 100 hours. That's 10 hours of game for $1. A comic can last me maybe 10 or 20 minutes. This would be fine if the quality was there. But it's not.

Because no serious writer would want to work in an industry as tightly regulated as comics. The properties are all corporate owned, and the writers and artists don't really matter. It's all about franchises where nothing ever changes. Compare this to manga, where there are harsh schedules, but writers often have more freedom to do what they want. You'll never see a Berserk quality series in America. The characters aren't allowed to develop or change. DC literally WON'T LET CHARACTERS GET MARRIED.

It's too intimidating for outsiders. If I decide to get into comics, there are ten different versions of any franchise, not to mention crossovers, and constant references to things I don't understand from 30 years ago. It's a convoluted mess. Then entire business model is built to fail.

A few people tried to change it. Alan Moore, Art Spiegalman, even Neil Gaiman. It was a failed effort, and the bright eyed pioneers are all either disgruntled and angry or not working in the industry any more. Instead the industry just panders to the lowest common denominator. Part of me wants the industry to fail, it really deserves it. And yet, there's so much untapped potential. We could have five, eight, ten more books just as good as Watchmen, but the whole industry is creatively dead. It's sad to see the industry groan and die without even beginning to realize its untapped potential. Meanwhile, Japan continues to kick ass in the mediums that America has neglected. The only question is whether the industry will be forced to change from failure, or if it will simply die.

I do have hope, though, for the future, and that's in web comics. All of my favorite western comics are online now, and they're far more original and free of corporate meddling then some stupid super hero rag. Ava's Demon, Gunnerkrigg Court, Everblue, The Meek... much more inventive then all of DC and Marvel combined.
 

Phasmal

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altnameJag said:
Considering Thor, female and all, is currently one of Marvel's best selling series, outselling Uncanny X-men even (or All New X-men, if that's more your speed), and Ms Marvel being a very solid title both critically and sales wise, I'm thinking their business sense is doing just fine. http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/31093/top-300-comics-actual-february-2015

And those are just sales to Comics shops. Signs point to online distribution to those titles being huge.
Uh, yeah, this.

How is female Thor a `problem` again?
From what I hear, the new female-led comics are actually doing really well.

Honestly, comics do have problems, but female Thor is not one of them.
(And hey has anyone read Spider-Gwen? I'm thinking of picking it up. Need an excuse to get back into comics.)

EDIT: Y'know what, fuck it, I just ordered Spider Gwen 1 so congratulations OP you made at least one sale for the comic book industry! Down the rabbit hole I go.
EDIT2: Ugh rereading this and the wording about `alienating old fans` to attract a `demographic that doesn't care about comics`.... ugh. Side-eyeing. Side-eyeing hard.
 

Fappy

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This is kind of funny considering how many of us disillusioned by the current industry think profit margins have stifled creative growth in comics. People like Joe Quesada are the comic equivalent of George Lucas: they started out as free spirited creative mavericks and went full-Don Draper when they realized how much money they were swimming in.
 

elvor0

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Phasmal said:
altnameJag said:
Considering Thor, female and all, is currently one of Marvel's best selling series, outselling Uncanny X-men even (or All New X-men, if that's more your speed), and Ms Marvel being a very solid title both critically and sales wise, I'm thinking their business sense is doing just fine. http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/31093/top-300-comics-actual-february-2015

And those are just sales to Comics shops. Signs point to online distribution to those titles being huge.
Uh, yeah, this.

How is female Thor a `problem` again?
From what I hear, the new female-led comics are actually doing really well.

Honestly, comics do have problems, but female Thor is not one of them.
(And hey has anyone read Spider-Gwen? I'm thinking of picking it up. Need an excuse to get back into comics.)
Personally I think it was just wierd how they handled it, which is what I think most peoples issue is, not a lady Thor in of itself. Thor isn't a title, it's the guys name, The God(ess) of Thunder is the title, so she can still be that, wield the hammer, have the power set, just calling her Thor makes no sense. Miles Morales didn't become Peter Parker when he donned the costume, nor did Sam Wilson(Falcon) become Steve Rogers when he donned the Captain America outfit.
Fox12 said:
It's too intimidating for outsiders. If I decide to get into comics, there are ten different versions of any franchise, not to mention crossovers, and constant references to things I don't understand from 30 years ago. It's a convoluted mess. Then entire business model is built to fail.
As much as I a DC man, DC really screwed the pooch on that one with the New 52. It was supposed to be a fresh start for all the characters, so there was no baggage for new readers. However, it ended up being confusing for both veterans AND new readers, Batman and Green Lanterns history were NOT removed, so Batman and Green Lantern remember things that other characters never experienced, despite them being integral to some of the stories that Batman and Hal Jordan were in and all of their history is now squidged into a 5 year space, which is laughable.

I don't think they should have several comics of the same character being printed. Batman alone has Batman, Detective Comics, Batman Arkham, Batman Eternal and Batman and Robin where he's the starring role. It would be much, much easier if you had Batman, comics for Batgirl, Nightwing and Batgirl, then made Detective comics a 2000AD kind of omnibus with rotating stories and writers for the Bat family. Same goes for Action Comics.

For events, just publish a comic that tells the events story that has all the frikking story in there. I shouldn't be missing 3/4s of the story when I buy a comic that exists purely because of the event. Crossovers should be handled like Snyder does with his Batman run, they exist, but they're not required and certainly don't leave you in the dark from issue to issue, they're just bonus material.

I do NOT think however, they should blast the history. They should streamline the comics line so it's easier to just pick up and buy, but if you don't understand something, look it up, we have the internet now. Comic continuity and history is one of the best maintained infospheres on the web. Doctor Who constantly makes reference to its 50 year old history and it does fine. I know it's only got one thing to follow, but they didn't blast 40 years of history out the airlock when they relaunched it becuase that would be silly and a disservice to fans.
 

Genocidicles

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Phasmal said:
How is female Thor a `problem` again?
I guess it's the crappy writing that's about as subtle as a punch in the face.

IE: The bad guy literally says "Damn feminists are ruining everything", while his female partner in crime doesn't even fight Thor because girls have to look out for each other.
 

Zontar

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altnameJag said:
Considering Thor, female and all, is currently one of Marvel's best selling series, outselling Uncanny X-men even (or All New X-men, if that's more your speed), and Ms Marvel being a very solid title both critically and sales wise, I'm thinking their business sense is doing just fine. http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/31093/top-300-comics-actual-february-2015

And those are just sales to Comics shops. Signs point to online distribution to those titles being huge.
When I look at those numbers the only thing I can think about is how low sales are this year compared to last year (though in all fairness last year saw a disproportionately large number of #1 issues for comics, and it did see a 5% rise in sales from 2013).

I'd also like to point out that at the same time last year as your figure Thor's comic was doing 30% worst then Thorina's comics. Now that might sounds like it's an improvement, but here's the thing to remember: Thorina's comic is at issue 5, far from the end of the 12 issue readership half-life of comic books, while Thor's was at issue 17, well after the period of stabilization. A simple new Thor comic line would, in all likelihood, have netted the same result without being critically panned (and it probably wouldn't have has an issue that had racist and sexist overtones that makes the main character look like a moron and outright insults a large part of the fanbase either, which is something I'm still trying to figure out how it got through the editorial proses).

By the time issue 12 comes alone, it'll probably be the last as a new Thor comic will likely be launched where Thor gets his identity back and Thorina gets an actual identity of her own that is more then just "identity thief" and "cares more about harming people she disagrees with then those who commit crime" that it currently is.
Phasmal said:
EDIT: Y'know what, fuck it, I just ordered Spider Gwen 1 so congratulations OP you made at least one sale for the comic book industry! Down the rabbit hole I go.
Alright, haven't herd much about Spider Gwen but it seems to be a solid comic.
Genocidicles said:
Phasmal said:
How is female Thor a `problem` again?
I guess it's the crappy writing that's about as subtle as a punch in the face.

IE: The bad guy literally says "Damn feminists are ruining everything", while his female partner in crime doesn't even fight Thor because girls have to look out for each other.
Seriously, how the hell did this get through the editorial proses? That whole scene was both racist, sexist and the biggest insult to the readership since One Day More's "escapism is for losers" scene.
 

Fappy

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Zontar said:
Seriously, how the hell did this get through the editorial proses? That whole scene was both racist, sexist and the biggest insult to the readership since One Day More's "escapism is for losers" scene.
Can't comment on the current Thor run because I haven't read it, but I think one of the most insulting things I have ever read in a Marvel book was in the Civil War Frontline tie-in. There was a scene in one of the last issues where one of the reporters tears into Captain America about not getting modern America and it was just... painful to read. Cap just accepts it and basically agrees with her. The reporter goes on a grandstanding tirade about how you're not American if you don't check your Facebook feed and post selfies.

Then again this is from an era when the editorial staff all unanimously agreed that Captain America was a shitty character, so no one was surprised when they pissed on him and subsequently "killed" him.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Comic books have always been a mess. That's what happens when you have dozens of characters stretching back over decades and decades, written by dozens of writers. Its always been a Frankenstein-esque hack job of plots, alternate universes, ret-cons and God knows what else.

But I do think political correctness has hampered them the last few years. The best comic books are gritty and controversial. I mean try making The Killing Joke these days. See if you don't have college liberals demanding it be censored for depicting sexual violence against Batgirl. Or mentally challenged people decrying the comic for implying insanity is something that can just happen over a single day.

Or look at those terrible silver age DC comics, where Superman becomes fat and its described as a handicap. Try making that these days! See what happens. I guarantee #FatShaming and #FatIsSuper will be popular in less than a day.

The problem isn't so much comic book management, as its always kinda' been a mess. The problem is that there is so much barren ground for daring, gritty or down-right disturbing comics to find purchase. So we're left with boring, not very well written comics that miraculously survived the censors.
 

Zontar

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Fappy said:
Zontar said:
Seriously, how the hell did this get through the editorial proses? That whole scene was both racist, sexist and the biggest insult to the readership since One Day More's "escapism is for losers" scene.
Can't comment on the current Thor run because I haven't read it, but I think one of the most insulting things I have ever read in a Marvel book was in the Civil War Frontline tie-in. There was a scene in one of the last issues where one of the reporters tears into Captain America about not getting modern America and it was just... painful to read. Cap just accepts it and basically agrees with her. The reporter goes on a grandstanding tirade about how you're not American if you don't check your Facebook feed and post selfies.

Then again this is from an era when the editorial staff all unanimously agreed that Captain America was a shitty character, so no one was surprised when they pissed on him and subsequently "killed" him.
Oh dear god did I hate that moment. On the bright-side it lead to this gem of a response by a fan who took issue with the My Space question (now don't that just make it dated?)



It's sad though, in Civil War's case there was the potential for a well made and crafted story with no real 'good' or 'bad' side that looked into the very relevant question of freedom vs security, and instead we got a paper-thin black and white morality story where half the heroes are turned into villains, Iron Man became a fascist who was willing to start a war with Atlantis to reunite the heroes, and the villains win the story.
 

Fappy

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Zontar said:
Oh God, that was brilliant. How have I not seen this before?

Regarding Civil War in general: Mr. Fantastic got the shittiest end of that stick. Go back and read his scenes. I have never seen a Marvel hero written so out of character before. Holy fuck.
 

esserin

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The established print comic industry may be dying but webcomics, stories where the author gets to actually write what they want, have only gotten bigger over time. So, I don't really see the death of those two giants as a major loss.

Hell, them dying might make room for something better to grow out of the woodwork.
 

Redd the Sock

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This has been a question for as long as the period you cover. The problem with figuring it out is that so much actually has been tried to minimal or no success. Both Marvel and DC had some younger reader lines without all the excess baggage of continuity some years back. They never sold well. The new 52 tried branching out into other genres like war, horror, western and fantasy, while Marvel adapted novels like the Oz books, Ender's game or the Dark Tower, again, to no real success. Marvels' MAX line never went anywhere, and DC's vertigo is dwindling. Then there's other companies: Dynamite offers pulp heroes without the crossovers, Dark Horse still has some good stand alone books, and IDW will repuropse anything from the 80s, but even a My Little Pony: Friendship is magic comic didn't make much of a blip.

Honestly, I think a lot of the reason given for people's lack of interest in comics are rooted in laziness. There's a lot out there, but unless it's rooted in the big 2's popular characters, it doesn't get attention. Even the recent stuff with Thor, while doing well, didn't seem to save She Hulk, Elektra, or Storm from their books getting axed, so it's a strong sign of how "in your face" something has to be to get most people interested. Really, I think comics just can't escape their reputation to the point where even though they have the highest grossing movies and some good TV shows, and wikipedia should help with that whole continuity thing, people just can't see themselves buying things that are for kids or nerds, and don't look into it deeper to find something more to their liking.
 

Redryhno

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Redd the Sock said:
This has been a question for as long as the period you cover. The problem with figuring it out is that so much actually has been tried to minimal or no success. Both Marvel and DC had some younger reader lines without all the excess baggage of continuity some years back. They never sold well. The new 52 tried branching out into other genres like war, horror, western and fantasy, while Marvel adapted novels like the Oz books, Ender's game or the Dark Tower, again, to no real success. Marvels' MAX line never went anywhere, and DC's vertigo is dwindling. Then there's other companies: Dynamite offers pulp heroes without the crossovers, Dark Horse still has some good stand alone books, and IDW will repuropse anything from the 80s, but even a My Little Pony: Friendship is magic comic didn't make much of a blip.

Honestly, I think a lot of the reason given for people's lack of interest in comics are rooted in laziness. There's a lot out there, but unless it's rooted in the big 2's popular characters, it doesn't get attention. Even the recent stuff with Thor, while doing well, didn't seem to save She Hulk, Elektra, or Storm from their books getting axed, so it's a strong sign of how "in your face" something has to be to get most people interested. Really, I think comics just can't escape their reputation to the point where even though they have the highest grossing movies and some good TV shows, and wikipedia should help with that whole continuity thing, people just can't see themselves buying things that are for kids or nerds, and don't look into it deeper to find something more to their liking.
To be fair, the Oz stuff's been going on for nearly thirty years back with Dredd goes to Oz, The Tin Man taking over Oz with...Image or Mirage I think, maybe it's Dark Horse. I think Punisher and Ghost Rider teamed up and went there at one point, Valiant put a couple of their characters in Oz for a bit.

Oz is sorta like the hubworld of the Comic and Literature corners of the world, everyone goes there or a Oz-proxy at some point or another.
 

Vivi22

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Fappy said:
Then again this is from an era when the editorial staff all unanimously agreed that Captain America was a shitty character, so no one was surprised when they pissed on him and subsequently "killed" him.
This assessment doesn't really track with the fact that Brubakers run on Cap was not only the best the character had had in god knows how long, but was also the best comic Marvel was putting out at the time. Yeah, that whole moment in Civil War was shit, but so was most of what happened in Civil War since none of the writers seemed to know what stance anyone was taking in any given week.

As to the topic, the last thing the comic industry needs is more businessmen calling the shots. And I say that as someone with a business degree who knows exactly what kind of fucking assholes business schools churn out.
 

Zontar

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Vivi22 said:
As to the topic, the last thing the comic industry needs is more businessmen calling the shots. And I say that as someone with a business degree who knows exactly what kind of fucking assholes business schools churn out.
Well it needs more of something, and whatever it is it isn't fanboys like Quesada calling the shots.
 

Fappy

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Vivi22 said:
This assessment doesn't really track with the fact that Brubakers run on Cap was not only the best the character had had in god knows how long, but was also the best comic Marvel was putting out at the time.
I could be wrong, but I don't think Brubaker was part of the editorial team during his run on Cap. I wouldn't say it was the best Marvel book of the time (that would be Annihilation :p), but it was the best Cap solo story I had ever read by far. Winter Soldier is my second favorite Marvel film because it was basically like seeing a Brubaker Cap story in live action. Similar tone, aesthetic, intrigue, and it even used all of the same characters from Brubaker's run (minus Red Skull and Sin). It was fucking perfect.