Why are there no businessmen in the American comic book industry?

[Zontar]

[snip.

that? I'd hardly call that sexist/insuling

on the nose? sure

but honestly I might have more of a problem with it if people DIDN'T talk that way and (lets be honest) or if there..."weren't" "issues" with that kind of stuff

but there are...or at least I think so

[snip

jesus fucking Christ....I mean I get pretty cynical about "certain demographics" often enough (particularly given recent uh..."events) but that's just taking it too far

maybe that or he's clearly clueless about the games development

Yeah, there's a reason Joe isn't remembered fondly by, well, anyone.

Though for the Thorina scene, what makes it worst is that on the pages after the one shown she only cared about fighting him because he called her a feminist in an insulting way (since when did the Asgard have the concept of feminism anyway?) with taking him down for his crime literally being an afterthought. Thor was never the smartest guy, but the scene was on the same level as Thor trying to kill Cap in The Avengers for telling him to stop fighting. And to add to all that, the female villain who Absorbing Man was working for turned herself in without a fight due to Thorina being a woman. I'm not joking, that was the whole reason, some odd respect for her due to her being a women that neither makes sense nor is it ever expanded on in its very head-scratching implications.

I'll admit, the second one made me laugh. It's from the new Loki series.

Wait, that is legit? I thought that was a joke. If that is legit, I want to know which issue it is (my local comic book store gets its stock on Thursdays) because just for that one page I'm willing to put money down for a copy.

 

[DementedSheep]

Seriously, how the hell did this get through the editorial proses? That whole scene was both racist, sexist and the biggest insult to the readership since One Day More's "escapism is for losers" scene.

can I ask what the scene in question was?

Likely this scene:

I like the current female Thor run, they've done cool things with it, and obviously male Thor will be back soon, but scenes like this seem to be a little too on the nose. They at least got the Absorbing man to deliver the line, who's been a raging misogynist in the past, but lines like this feel too much like just directly addressing the critics of the book.

There was another one I remember too, I think it took place in a comic shop or something, lemme see if I can find it, luckily these scenes are few and far between, still feel kind of out of place in the greater Marvel universe though.

Edit: also, I don't think this is nearly as bad as Moore's One More Day speech, as that one pretty much insulted a vast majority of geeks everywhere in a direct generalizing fashion, this one is mostly just lamely insulting critics of the new female Thor.

Edit: NVM I see what you mean, it is a bit to directly aimed at critics of the book. At least he didn't call her Whor.

 

[EternallyBored]

Wait, that is legit? I thought that was a joke. If that is legit, I want to know which issue it is (my local comic book store gets its stock on Thursdays) because just for that one page I'm willing to put money down for a copy.

Issue 12 supposedly, its not out yet, so it might be fake, but here's the full page.

 

[Thorn14]

Wait, that is legit? I thought that was a joke. If that is legit, I want to know which issue it is (my local comic book store gets its stock on Thursdays) because just for that one page I'm willing to put money down for a copy.

Issue 12 supposedly, its not out yet, so it might be fake, but here's the full page.

I still can't wrap my head around that "joke." Its a crappy reference to a meme that makes no sense, and it will ensure that the future readers will have no idea what its talking about.

Not the first time the writer has poorly put their politics in their work.

She may as well be made of straw. If you're going to be political in comics, please be really good at it. So to just play it safe....please don't?

Also I have no problem with a female Thor, or new female heroes (Spider Gwen is AWESOME. And the new Ms. Marvel is quite fun.) My problem is how badly written it is and how much it goes against established canon.

It also just reeks of "I AM A STRONG WOMAN WHO CAN PROVE THAT ANY WOMAN CAN BE JUST AS GOOD IF NOT BETTER THAN ANY MAN." And it just makes me cringe.

 

[EternallyBored]

Wait, that is legit? I thought that was a joke. If that is legit, I want to know which issue it is (my local comic book store gets its stock on Thursdays) because just for that one page I'm willing to put money down for a copy.

Issue 12 supposedly, its not out yet, so it might be fake, but here's the full page.

Not the first time the writer has poorly put their politics in their work.

She may as well be made of straw. If you're going to be political in comics, please be really good at it. So to just play it safe....please don't?

Also I have no problem with a female Thor, or new female heroes (Spider Gwen is AWESOME. And the new Ms. Marvel is quite fun.) My problem is how badly written it is and how much it goes against established canon.

It also just reeks of "I AM A STRONG WOMAN WHO CAN PROVE THAT ANY WOMAN CAN BE JUST AS GOOD IF NOT BETTER THAN ANY MAN." And it just makes me cringe.

The reason I doubt its a fake is that the author, Al Ewing, hasn't been shy in the past about not being a fan of that particular issue. It still gave me a chuckle though, I need to catch up on the series, I've kinda been ignoring the Loki series in favor of Ms. Marvel, definitely my favorite new character from Marvel in awhile.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

Ethics in hammer wielding.... Hah!

 

[Saetha]

So why get invested in Marvel or DC when I can just go read webcomics?

then don't read Marel or DC

90% of what I read is From Image, they do independent creator owned works, and that's not discounting other publishers (ONI, IDW, Dark hoarse, BOOM, Vertigo) and I wouldn't exactly call them small fish, they're like..almost a 3rd of the industry (or close to it)

Because that's the thing - I actually don't mind the superhero genre. Earlier in this post you quoted the list of issues I have with modern comics and edited in "superhero" after (most of) them. But it's not the superhero thing that's the problem for me. I'm actually fascinated by the idea of superheroes, and I'd love to get into some good stories about them. That's not what's holding me back. It's the franchise zombies, the status quo worship, the insular, incestuous nature - and those things can occur in any genre, to any property. There's this little phrase that I've been told before - a good idea is worthless, a good execution is priceless, and I think that really holds here. It's not that they need to abandon the idea of superheroes, and frankly I wouldn't want them too. They just really need to change their approach - actually change it, not make some gimmicky, attention grabbing shake-up that'll be reversed in a matter of volumes.

It's not an issue of money. I like paying artists who've earned it. I make a point of it, in fact, being a creative type myself. And even schedules that take too long or peter out don't really bother me - I love getting involved in independent media, writing and comics especially, so I'm pretty used to painfully slow releases and orphaned works. It's that the stories I want to see are being pulled off by writers who lack either the skill or the executive fiat to do it well. I've tried getting into comics outside of DC/Marvel. I've tried getting into comics that aren't about superheroes, that deal with fantasy, which is far and away my preferred genre. I've tried getting into Fables, HellBlazer, Hellboy, Walking Dead. They always seem to lose me, for one reason or another. The only print comic that strikes me as appealing is SaGa, and I haven't actually read that yet.

It's just... weird. I dunno, maybe I'll find something.

I've seen some pretty terrible ones (uggghhh the burn and dodge) ok ok I know that's bedise the point...I just couldn't help bringing up the burn and dodge...or when they can't decide if theyre doing a digital; painting or line art...but anyway

On the subject of web comics... there's just so much material, and the cost of getting into it is so little, and yeah a lot of the work's amateurish - but I like watching an artist improve, or a writer find their feet, and following along as their work evolves into some incredible stuff. Tessa Stone may not be the best writer around, and I'll never get over HiNaBN's abrupt "end," but I've always loved her poppy, colorful, almost cartoonish style, and it was great to follow her characters' evolution from rigid to lanky and smooth. Order of the Stick may have a slow start, but I love how it repeatedly and casually crosses the line between light-hearted comedy and plot-driven epic, to say nothing of how it deconstructs DnD and fantasy tropes in general. Aesthetically, Girl Genius may have a lot of the same problems I accuse comic books of having (The art style especially. Ye gods, whoever did the colors for volumes two and three must've been blind) but everything from the characters to the world to the humor are so fresh and interesting to me. And on the other end of the scale, Namesake's writing makes me want to tear my hair out, but the art's great, and the story could be too if the writer ever gets a grasp of how to execute it - it's creators are people to keep eyes on, even if Namesake itself might be beyond saving. And the sheer potential one can find... Ava's Demon is looking great, The Meek's finally coming off of hiatus, and I've heard very good things about both Blindsprings and Unsounded, even if I can't find the time to check them out myself.

Web comics can be very hit or miss, but they're just... they're not something I'd count out just yet. I mean, Girl Genius is an independent web comic and it won a goddamn Hugo. Three times in a row. The Foglios had to remove themselves from running for a fourth win because they didn't want to discredit the award. And it ended up going to another web comic (Digger) anyway. Only one print comic has won in the category in the five years it's been awarded.

 

[Vault101]

Because that's the thing - I actually don't mind the superhero genre. Earlier in this post you quoted the list of issues I have with modern comics and edited in "superhero" after (most of) them. But it's not the superhero thing that's the problem for me. I'm actually fascinated by the idea of superheroes, and I'd love to get into some good stories about them. That's not what's holding me back. It's the franchise zombies, the status quo worship, the insular, incestuous nature -

hrrrmmmmm

Well there's "Irredeemable" which finished up a few years ago which is basically "what if superman snapped and went insane"? Superman expy...basically goes insane and on a murderous rampage his former teammates have to stop him...it felt very.."real"

there's "Powers" which you might have heard of from the new TV series about cops who have to deal with a world of super heros...a lot more light hearted and humorous

similar thing in the "Gotham Central" run by Greg Rucka Gotham PD and how they deal with...well being in Gotham, focuses on Renee Montoya everyone favourite cop lesbian

there's also "The Boys" a real favourite of mine...I don't think you have to have a large knowledge of superheros..but it IS very...Garth Ennis-y, I liked it but I can see why others wouldn't

I know there are a couple of "straight" heros but I'm not as familiar as a lot of the stuff I've mentioned or know of a more subversive in general

[quote/] I've tried getting into Fables, HellBlazer, Hellboy, Walking Dead. They always seem to lose me, for one reason or another. The only print comic that strikes me as appealing is SaGa, and I haven't actually read that yet.[/quote]
eeehh I never got into any of those either

what about Rat Queens? personally I found it a little too cutesey and trying to be "cool" but it might be your thing

 

[Saetha]

Because that's the thing - I actually don't mind the superhero genre. Earlier in this post you quoted the list of issues I have with modern comics and edited in "superhero" after (most of) them. But it's not the superhero thing that's the problem for me. I'm actually fascinated by the idea of superheroes, and I'd love to get into some good stories about them. That's not what's holding me back. It's the franchise zombies, the status quo worship, the insular, incestuous nature -

hrrrmmmmm

Well there's "Irredeemable" which finished up a few years ago which is basically "what if superman snapped and went insane"? Superman expy...basically goes insane and on a murderous rampage his former teammates have to stop him...it felt very.."real"

there's "Powers" which you might have heard of from the new TV series about cops who have to deal with a world of super heros...a lot more light hearted and humorous

similar thing in the "Gotham Central" run by Greg Rucka Gotham PD and how they deal with...well being in Gotham, focuses on Renee Montoya everyone favourite cop lesbian

there's also "The Boys" a real favourite of mine...I don't think you have to have a large knowledge of superheros..but it IS very...Garth Ennis-y, I liked it but I can see why others wouldn't

I know there are a couple of "straight" heros but I'm not as familiar as a lot of the stuff I've mentioned or know of a more subversive in general

I'll try and check them out sometime. Currently kind of drowning in my own work. There are a few video games I've been wanting to get into that I refuse to touch until I've finished some of my writing.

So I probably shouldn't be on the Escapist writing essays on comics but shhhh don't tell anyone I'm here.

what about Rat Queens? personally I found it a little too cutesey and trying to be "cool" but it might be your thing

Hmm... how is it plot and character wise? I've heard of it, certainly. But all I've heard is that the main cast is all female, and that's too arbitrary to really count as praise in my book. I've always had an issue getting into straight comedic or episodic works. Like I said, Order of the Stick had a slow start for me, and for all the praise I hear for Gunnerkrigg Court, I've never been able to get past the aimless slice-of-life bits. I'm a big fan of having a clear and focused plot, even if it's not always front and center.

...Looking at the TvTropes page isn't filling me with much hope. "Tumblr meets World of Warcraft" is not what I would call a flattering description.

 

[wulf3n]

Wow, I totally misunderstood the title of this thread.

Here I was thinking it was asking for more comics about businessmen. I'd be up for that.

 

[Vault101]

Hmm... how is it plot and character wise? I've heard of it, certainly. But all I've heard is that the main cast is all female, and that's too arbitrary to really count as praise in my book. I've always had an issue getting into straight comedic or episodic works. Like I said, Order of the Stick had a slow start for me, and for all the praise I hear for Gunnerkrigg Court, I've never been able to get past the aimless slice-of-life bits. I'm a big fan of having a clear and focused plot, even if it's not always front and center.

...Looking at the TvTropes page isn't filling me with much hope. "Tumblr meets World of Warcraft" is not what I would call a flattering description.

Tumblr huh? well thats an odd descriptor (though I guess it could be fitting in a way)

it is comedic and definitely plays on all the tropes which may or may not work for everyone, probably more plot heavy since it is a print book

for fantasy that plays itself more straight I guess there's Reyn

Locke & Key is more horror than straight fantasy but that was phenomenal (seriously I could go on all day)

 

[Bill Bongo]

Honestly, it doesn't appear that Marvel/Disney crap in what gets printed in the actual comics. That isn't where their money is now, the comic characters stories have already been established. They could dismantle the entire comic book division of Marvel, and only make movies and they would still make a ton of bank. Sure fans will moan about it, but in the end, this form of media means little to them in the overall scheme of things.

That being said, comics still get a ton of attention when they do something stupid. Until it effect sales of movies/games/etc. then maybe they will employ actual businessmen instead of gnomes or whatever to do the accounting.

None of what I wrote is based on any iota of fact, simply what I think. I don't know much about the comic industry, I don't really care for it now a days. Especially don't know anything about Marvel, because when I do buy comics, they are almost always old DC comics.

 

[Phasmal]

Just to update a little bit on the whole Thor thing, it seems that her series is selling actually rather well, so from a business standpoint, I think we can rule her out as a problem- even if some people aren't keen on the writing.
http://fusion.net/story/105401/new-..._campaign=socialshare&utm_content=desktop+top

In other news, my issue of Spider-Gwen hasn't arrived yet, which is disappointing- but the postage was really cheap so hey what can I expect. (And to be honest I'd rather pay postage and wait than go into my local comic book store, which is.. less than friendly).

There's a business problem, at least around here. Comic book stores being unwelcoming.

Snip

Also for someone offended about a page in which someone's mad that they have to call female Thor `Thor` you sure are having trouble calling female Thor `Thor`.

 

[dragoongfa]

And as they all aged out and retired they were replaced by fanboys. Elevated fanfic writers with at best squishy liberal arts degrees, no experience in actual business, and a follow the herd pack mentality. Not to mention an ingrained dislike for that which came before in anything. (That whole Progressive philosophy taken to its horrible conclusions. "All change is good, all old is bad. I know better than those that came before me")

How can the comic book industry hippie liberals hate old material, if it's writers are made up of fanboys of its old material?

Clearly you have never met a rabid fanfic writer who thinks that he/she can do better than the writer who actually came up with the characters and the story.

Signs of such writers are: Mary Sue characters, forced shipping, ridiculous favorable portrayal of their favorite characters and the opposite for those that they don't like.

Also they HATE with the full definition of the word any canonical story that diverges even a little bit that whatever fan fic they have written.

 

[Saetha]

for fantasy that plays itself more straight I guess there's Reyn

Locke & Key is more horror than straight fantasy but that was phenomenal (seriously I could go on all day)

I've heard of Locke and Key, too. I'm fine with horror. I like all types of fantasy - I actually kinda prefer the "weirder" fantasy stuff like steampunk or modern gothic. I've seem some writers do really interesting things with high fantasy, but it is a little overplayed. Never heard of Reyn, however...

I'll try to check out Locke and Key. Googling Reyn just brings me to Xenoblade, however. What's it about?

 

[Vault101]

I've heard of Locke and Key, too. I'm fine with horror. I like all types of fantasy - I actually kinda prefer the "weirder" fantasy stuff like steampunk or modern gothic. I've seem some writers do really interesting things with high fantasy, but it is a little overplayed. Never heard of Reyn, however...

haven't read this one, but it looks interesting
https://www.comixology.com/Hinges-Vol-1-Clockwork-City/digital-comic/195243?ref=c2VhcmNoL2luZGV4L2Rlc2t0b3Avc2xpZGVyTGlzdC9pdGVtU2xpZGVy

Boom also released a series called "ledgendary" which is basically their characters in a steampunk setting...probably not your thing though its a bit old school and the plot has Red sonyas sister going from set piece to set piece

now its steampunk vapirella!
now its steam punk green hornet!!
now its steam punk Phantom!! ect...

yeah..ok

and no you wouldn't have heard of Reyn, its relatively new and you wouldn't have unless it hit the popularity of The Walking dead/Saga which is unlikely

[quote/]I'll try to check out Locke and Key. Googling Reyn just brings me to Xenoblade, however. What's it about?[/quote]
I'm faaaaaiirrllly certain they aren't related, its just that Reyn it seems is a character from Xenoblade and Xenoblade is more well known than Reyn the comic

its like...basically straight up high fantasy about a guy whos...like a guy who does things

there's also Morning glories or Shutter

Honestly, it doesn't appear that Marvel/Disney crap in what gets printed in the actual comics. That isn't where their money is now, the comic characters stories have already been established. They could dismantle the entire comic book division of Marvel, and only make movies and they would still make a ton of bank. Sure fans will moan about it, but in the end, this form of media means little to them in the overall scheme of things.
.

I can't see them doing that....its too much of an institution,

on the other hand...I'd be reeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaallly curious as to what the fallout would be and how it might affect the other players (Image ect)

 

[Redd the Sock]

Just to update a little bit on the whole Thor thing, it seems that her series is selling actually rather well, so from a business standpoint, I think we can rule her out as a problem- even if some people aren't keen on the writing.
http://fusion.net/story/105401/new-..._campaign=socialshare&utm_content=desktop+top

Honestly, that's debatable. The book's already lost 60% of its sales from it's first issue, which granted, isn't abnormal in comics, at the moment, I can't guess if this is a new normal level, or if interest will drop further, especially when they finally give the new Thor her origin (mystery is a great way to keep readers around). It's also quite a bit beneath the levels male Thor maintained in his post Civil War relaunch a few years back. In the big picture, well, the clone saga in Spider Man did boost sales, and All Star Batman and Robin sold very well at first, but it might not have been worth the legacy it left to the reputation of comics. I have nothing against the new Thor (hence the lack of colorful female style nicknames) but I do respect the dislike of a book getting hijacked so suddenly, even if it's just the fear of the tactic spreading to something you read, as well as see how these sudden twists add to that continuity nightmare that puts people off getting started.

I'll get my Girl Power fix from Zenescope's Robyn Hood book. Between recent issues and Agnet Carter, Marvel shows little subtlety in writing about social issues. I'm also astounded at the sales for IDW's comic for Orphen Black. Haven't been that stunned by a top seller since Dreamwave did Transformers so long ago.

 

[Vault101]

I'll get my Girl Power fix from Zenescope's Robyn Hood book. Between recent issues and Agnet Carter, Marvel shows little subtlety in writing about social issues. I'm also astounded at the sales for IDW's comic for Orphen Black. Haven't been that stunned by a top seller since Dreamwave did Transformers so long ago.

I always wondered about the appeal of tie-ins

I would say it could be the tumblr-crowd? but ehhh

Orphan Black is a popular TV show but its not a blockbuster like star wars