Why are there no businessmen in the American comic book industry?

[Vault101]

haven't sales gone up a bit in the past few years? anyway...

snips.

to me whatever comics problems are its because after the crash they just didn't reach out into the mainstream like they used too...and the avenues (news agents, ect) don't really exist like they used to

the super hero genre is just too impenetrable...too insular

The established print comic industry may be dying but webcomics, stories where the author gets to actually write what they want, have only gotten bigger over time. So, I don't really see the death of those two giants as a major loss.

I admit I'm a little biased towards webcomics, I mentally associate them with badly executed anime influences and comic sans *blegh*

[quote/]Hell, them dying might make room for something better to grow out of the woodwork.[/quote]
the fact that whenever someone says "comics" were all of a sudden going on about superheros (and all the following bullshit) I think that really says something

the mediaum as a....a....uhhh....*sigh* [I/]"Image"[/I] problem XD

Image is probably the third "biggest" behind the main two whatever issues (heh) it has , people LIKE image because it provides something they don't get from the big two

actual original self contained story's the kind of shit people want...I mean hell one of the the top sellers is The Walking Dead which ok its probably due to the TV show and the Zombie craze but there IS a readership there,

I just wonder if comics...non-super hero comics could be more popular if they weren't associated with the clusterfuck that is the big two

snip.

I'm not even sure its a "nerd" thing...I think its more the fact no one wants to bother with that shit, they don't want to go on Wikipedia everytime they get confused (people haaaaate being confused, or at least I do), they don't want to bother with "events" they don't give a flying fuck about the universe or whatever and they don't nessicaryly want to invest in a character who is subject to the whims of corporate overlords with no "actual" end in sight

or maybe they just have [b/]no innate interest in the superhero genre?[/b]

I don't blame people who do and I know a lot of books out there are reasonable enough for "jumping in" but...I don't know maybe there's too much baggage?

maybe people are content to just watch the movies...the movies have a beginning, a middle, and an end

The industry is designed to fail. Comics offer less bang for your buck. I bought a $10 game that lasted 100 hours. That's 10 hours of game for $1. A comic can last me maybe 10 or 20 minutes. This would be fine if the quality was there. But it's not.
.

this isn't so much an issue when you have less time in general, plus if its good then you hardly notice (well unless your waiting for the next issue)

also you should look at Image...Saga, the one everyone mentions is great

 

[Vault101]

snip.

yeeeeaaahhh

I think history has declared that the 90's "sucked"

 

[Zontar]

haven't sales gone up a bit in the past few years? anyway...

snips.

to me whatever comics problems are its because after the crash they just didn't reach out into the mainstream like they used too...and the avenues (news agents, ect) don't really exist like they used to

the super hero genre is just too impenetrable...too insular

Yeah, that's a problem, but it's one that maybe having something akin to magazine like subscriptions again would help (if they exist I'm not aware of them, and I'm into comics) plus maybe seeing if a few nation wide retailers would be up for having a few comics sold nationally.

I think history has declared that the 90's "sucked"

MovieBob isn't history, and though it sucked for comic books, over all it was a great decade in the West (the DC animated universe, the best thing DC ever made, was spawned in that decade, as was a great generation of video games and the birth of the internet)

 

[Vault101]

Yeah, that's a problem, but it's one that maybe having something akin to magazine like subscriptions again would help

I think Image was trying that or something like it

[quote/](if they exist I'm not aware of them, and I'm into comics) plus maybe seeing if a few nation wide retailers would be up for having a few comics sold nationally.[/quote]
I guess...its hard though, stocking comics would require quite a bit of space

I would have said bookstores are a good place for trades but THAT seems like its own sinking ship

honestly the only future I see here is digital, all the kids thease days have phones/tablets, that's where your market is

MovieBob isn't history, and though it sucked for comic books

that's what I meant

the 90's were cool otherwise

 

[Fox12]

snip

The industry is designed to fail. Comics offer less bang for your buck. I bought a $10 game that lasted 100 hours. That's 10 hours of game for $1. A comic can last me maybe 10 or 20 minutes. This would be fine if the quality was there. But it's not.
.

this isn't so much an issue when you have less time in general, plus if its good then you hardly notice (well unless your waiting for the next issue)

also you should look at Image...Saga, the one everyone mentions is great

This is true, but it does affect people's purchasing decisions. My main issue is how underdeveloped the industry is. I'm not sure how to fix it, but it desperately needs... something. I think it needs more watchmen. Work that is intelligent enough to be taken seriously, but good enough to reach a mainstream audience. Tolkien did it with LotR, and Alan Moore tried to do it with Watchmen. The book succeeded individually, but the medium just didn't have the clout to follow him through the breach, so to speak. It's not even the writers fault, most of the industry just makes it really hard to produce a quality work that isn't a franchise. Also, as you said, it has a serious image problem. DC and Marvel seem to abandoning comics in favor of film anyway, so there's prime opportunity for other companies to step up. I would love to see more artistic comics produced.

I read a little bit of Saga, but got distracted, so maybe I'll give it another look. I seem to remember it being pretty good.

I think history has declared that the 90's "sucked"

Uh, what? Y-you mean for comics, right? Just for comics? Like, surely you don't mean the actual decade? Because those are fighting words.

Spoiler

I'm pretty sure the late 80's and 90's were the crowned achievement of human civilization. Berserk, Eva, Akira, Cowboy Bebop, The Disney Renaissance, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, gush gush gush gush gush. And no, thank you very much, I will not take these nostalgia glasses off. They are permanently glued to my face.

 

[Vault101]

most of the industry just makes it really hard to produce a quality work that isn't a franchise. Also, as you said, it has a serious image problem. DC and Marvel seem to abandoning comics in favor of film anyway, so there's prime opportunity for other companies to step up. I would love to see more artistic comics produced.

eehhhhhh quality is kind of subjective, I have genuinely enjoyed some recent-ish superhero stuff

anyway I don't think its an issue of lack of comics....its just as everyone's been saying we can collectively get our panties in a twist over whatever the big two are doing yet almost a 3rd of the industry gets completely ignored by the public consciousness, how many potential readers are there who WOULD read comics but have no interest in superheros and never will?

and it actually baffles me because I'm like...who the fuck cares what "mooovel deefee" are doing? I'm just hoping ***** Planet will reach its 30 issue goal

[quote/]
Uh, what? Y-you mean for comics, right? Just for comics? .[/quote]
YEEEEEEEEESSSS that's what I meant

 

[Objectable]

Clearly, y'all ain't reading Image Comics.
It's a company run by comic fans that is not only producing great comics, but also doing well in sales.
And they produced the greatest comic of all time.
http://retconpunchdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/the-opposite-of-war-is-fucking.jpg

 

[Redd the Sock]

snip

Funny how often my point gets missed even as I spell it out.

I stated my life on the internet on comic forums and the same types of issues were raised. "why is Wolverine and Batman in everything?" "Why so many shitty crossovers?" The problem was, guess what topped the sales charts: Wolvering books, Batman books and the big crossover event. Even today it's kind of a joke: no one seems to like the big Marvel event books, yet it still sold more than the other books. The thing for me is, since I only have a small comic store in town, I have to order through the Previews catalog, and that provided some perspective. Marvel and DC may dominate sales, but the full catalog has 400 pages of comics to order and the "big 2" really only produce a small amount of the total available things to order, and a surprising amount aren't superheroes.

From my perspective, if people were fully serious about the things you say being what keeps them from comics, they'd at least be willing to look into other publishers and titles rather than write off the industry. I read some traditional superhero stuff, but I've also enjoyed reprints of Elfquest (fantasy), Danger Girl (Spy), Ninja High School (comedy) Fables (self contained epic), the comic continuations of Buffy and Angel, and manga ranging from the traditional shonen action, to comedy and romance, just to name a few things. One can find everything from My little pony comics to lesbian BDSM romance. Trades of old comics staring Mickey Mouse, updated properties (and for the inclusivity nuts, the new jem and the holograms comics have outted Kimber and Stormer), horror, thrillers, video game adaptations, it goes on and on. The only legitimate hardship I can accept being a true hindrance to the average reader are the books that are right to left. The rest just takes is looking at a different part of the shelf and not stereotyping the industry by its top sellers.

If more people did that, the big 2 would either fall, or try to appeal to the rival demographics, like the way they tried to mimic manga styles in the early 2000s, though hopefully with better results. Without it, in reference to the topic question, they do have businessmen running these things, and they are taking the actions that are bringing in the most cash because no matter how much people online insist other tactics would do better for them, the sales figures disagree. Why try and appeal to people that will just assume it's all convoluted continuity for superheroes no matter what you put out?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Clearly, y'all ain't reading Image Comics.
It's a company run by comic fans that is not only producing great comics, but also doing well in sales.
And they produced the greatest comic of all time.
http://retconpunchdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/the-opposite-of-war-is-fucking.jpg

You know, I don't remember seeing that panel in Atomic Robo. P)

 

[Vault101]

[snip?

I did say superheros still sell so *shrug* I don't know

[quote/]From my perspective, if people were fully serious about the things you say being what keeps them from comics, they'd at least be willing to look into other publishers and titles rather than write off the industry. [/quote]
can you really blame people though? when the conversation HERE and most everywhere else on the internet is utterly [b/]dominated[/b] by "mooovel" and "deefee"? what else are people going to expect?

ask most people why they don't read comics and they'll probably say something like [I/]"its too confusing, I'm not into superheros, I don't know all these retcons and reboots, I don't like shared universes, those costumes are ridiculous" ect...[/I]

[snip?

I did say superheros still sell so *shrug* I don't know

[quote/]From my perspective, if people were fully serious about the things you say being what keeps them from comics, they'd at least be willing to look into other publishers and titles rather than write off the industry. [/quote]
can you really blame people though? when the conversation HERE and most everywhere else on the internet is utterly [b/]dominated[/b] by "mooovel" and "deefee"? what else are people going to expect?

ask most people why they don't read comics and they'll probably say something like [I/]"its too confusing, I'm not into superheros, I don't know all these retcons and reboots, I don't like shared universes, those costumes are ridiculous" ect...[/I]

and here I am...constantly running around reminding people that Image exists...and I actually didn't know non-superhero comics were a thing...in my 20's

its a niche within a niche....how many of us here on Escapist can name 10 non superhero comic's? how many of us have read Southern Bastards or Copperhead? much like actual "Book" Books the fanbase is simply too small/scattered to generate the kind of conversation unless its Saga or The Walking Dead

I'm not saying that dropping superheros would increase sales or that there are a bazillion potential readers out there, what I am saying is that there is a whole section of the market and people act like it doesn't exist...

 

[Redd the Sock]

snip

I'll admit that's a fair point. But then the question comes as what does a comic company have to do to break through the stereotype comics have beyond spending 3 times what the best selling books make for TV ads. Right now it's why we're getting the "big shocking changes" to characters: all the free press the internet gives, even in the mainstream press.

It's just a case of if you say comics need to appeal to a wider demographic, the only reply you're going to get from the folks in charge is "do you seriously think that isn't what we've been trying to do?" It might be a word of mouth thing that needs to happen. Maybe sites like this need to bring up comics more often than when there's a controversial subject to talk about.

 

[Saetha]

The established print comic industry may be dying but webcomics, stories where the author gets to actually write what they want, have only gotten bigger over time. So, I don't really see the death of those two giants as a major loss.

Hell, them dying might make room for something better to grow out of the woodwork.

This. Like, don't get me wrong, all of the other reasons stated here are valid. I've always wanted to get into comic books, but several things have always held me back. Some of them you mentioned, OP. Comics are convoluted Frankensteins that are difficult to follow if you're not insanely dedicated/a long time reader. Comics are stifled by an insistence on "status quo" that keeps writers from making new properties, taking risks, and doing interesting things with their stories. Comics have been pushed off of Walmart shelves and sit out of the way in obscure comic shops. These have all been problems for me in trying to get into comics.

But the final nail in the coffin? Webcomics exist. They're usually free, interesting, accessible, individualistic, and fresh. One of the things I don't like about comics is the art style - it looks like cluttered, over-wrought color vomit. But I've seen webcomics with amazing art styles. They're elegant and original, engrossing and beautiful. They have incredible character designs, or amazing scene design, or great color balance. I just don't see that in modern comic books. It's like they're stuck with the styles of past decades, where we didn't have things like digital coloring.

And the stories in them are fascinating. Yeah, a lot of them suck, most webcomics don't have anything resembling an editorial process. But the ones that know what they're doing are incredible. And further more, they change. I don't stop and wonder why I should care about this character death or that world changing revelation. When something big happens, I get interested. Because the status quo can and will change. The big two just don't allow that with their books.

So why get invested in Marvel or DC when I can just go read webcomics?

 

[Vault101]

I'll admit that's a fair point. But then the question comes as what does a comic company have to do to break through the stereotype comics have beyond spending 3 times what the best selling books make for TV ads. Right now it's why we're getting the "big shocking changes" to characters: all the free press the internet gives, even in the mainstream press.

maybe its to their detriment, since it re enforces ever negative stereotype to non-readers

but then as I said...that shit sells, and I can't really speak for super hero comics

[quote/]It's just a case of if you say comics need to appeal to a wider demographic, the only reply you're going to get from the folks in charge is "do you seriously think that isn't what we've been trying to do?"[/quote]
well if anything DC hasn't been doing a very good job, but that could just be me

[quote/]It might be a word of mouth thing that needs to happen. Maybe sites like this need to bring up comics more often than when there's a controversial subject to talk about.[/quote]
as I said I wondered about how other comics could get mainstream reach...I thought aligning themselves with books as much as possible was the way to do that. but as I said I'm not sure there's much faith in actual bookstores long term, the retail space for comics just isn't there outside speciality stores....

I think its more an issue of exposure, I wonder if TV adaptations could help (ie: the apparent interest in Sex Criminals, Preacher and Possibly Revival..though I think that fell through)

I mean you could argue that the big Marvel movies didn't do as much for driving up comic sales as you'd think, but on the other hand people like familiarity....they might LOVE movie Thor but Comic Thor is a different beast all together (and I'm talking pre lady thor too) whereas a "direct" adaptation is more or less the "same" like peoples favourite book....I don't know I'm just rambling at this point

now if you'll excuse me

This. Like, don't get me wrong, all of the other reasons stated here are valid. I've always wanted to get into comic books, but several things have always held me back. Some of them you mentioned, OP. [b/][Super hero][/b] Comics are convoluted Frankensteins that are difficult to follow if you're not insanely dedicated/a long time reader. [b/][Super hero][/b] Comics are stifled by an insistence on "status quo" that keeps writers from making new properties, taking risks, and doing interesting things with their stories. [b/][Super hero][/b] Comics have been pushed off of Walmart shelves and sit out of the way in obscure comic shops. These have all been problems for me in trying to get into comics.

[quote/] it looks like cluttered, over-wrought color vomit.[/quote]
I like comicbook style...but it really depends I guess, I prefer they go easy on ther rendering


[quote/]But I've seen webcomics with amazing art styles. They're elegant and original, engrossing and beautiful. They have incredible character designs, or amazing scene design, or great color balance. I just don't see that in modern comic books. It's like they're stuck with the styles of past decades, where we didn't have things like digital coloring[/quote]
I've seen some pretty terrible ones (uggghhh the burn and dodge) ok ok I know that's bedise the point...I just couldn't help bringing up the burn and dodge...or when they can't decide if theyre doing a digital; painting or line art...but anyway


[quote/]So why get invested in Marvel or DC when I can just go read webcomics?[/quote]

then don't read Marel or DC

90% of what I read is From Image, they do independent creator owned works, and that's not discounting other publishers (ONI, IDW, Dark hoarse, BOOM, Vertigo) and I wouldn't exactly call them small fish, they're like..almost a 3rd of the industry (or close to it)

I'm not saying theyre perfect, because there have been a couple of good series that have just...faded out weather the writers put them on hiatus or they didn't sell I don't know. And I'm not saying its even what you're looking for

because YES you have to pay for it and YES you have to content with the monthly release schedule (if its relitivly new) and YES you may not think its value for money

you obviously don't have an issue with reading digitally so I'd suggest looking at Comixology pretty much everything is there (alongside indies) there's also often free comics

recently I've really been enjoying copperhead
https://www.comixology.com/Copperhead/comics-series/25120?ref=c2VhcmNoL2luZGV4L2Rlc2t0b3Avc2xpZGVyTGlzdC9zZXJpZXNTbGlkZXI

if your interested in Series that are either completed runs or have a sizable backlog let me know..

 

[faefrost]

Seriously, how the hell did this get through the editorial proses? That whole scene was both racist, sexist and the biggest insult to the readership since One Day More's "escapism is for losers" scene.

In one sentence you have summed up the root of the problem without realizing it. Editorial. Somewhere along the way the comics industry lost all the old school traditional editors. Those that understood how to stand carefully in that balance point between artistic freedom, and what the buying public actually wants. True businessmen with a good dose of common sense who could get good work out of producers without drama or personal politics. And as they all aged out and retired they were replaced by fanboys. Elevated fanfic writers with at best squishy liberal arts degrees, no experience in actual business, and a follow the herd pack mentality. Not to mention an ingrained dislike for that which came before in anything. (That whole Progressive philosophy taken to its horrible conclusions. "All change is good, all old is bad. I know better than those that came before me") this leads to a very squishy editorial department which is easily rough housed by corporate marketing, and has no real editorial consistency or stable vision. The editing in mainstream comics has been getting worse for around 10 years now.

 

[Vault101]

Seriously, how the hell did this get through the editorial proses? That whole scene was both racist, sexist and the biggest insult to the readership since One Day More's "escapism is for losers" scene.

can I ask what the scene in question was?

 

[EternallyBored]

Seriously, how the hell did this get through the editorial proses? That whole scene was both racist, sexist and the biggest insult to the readership since One Day More's "escapism is for losers" scene.

can I ask what the scene in question was?

Likely this scene:

I like the current female Thor run, they've done cool things with it, and obviously male Thor will be back soon, but scenes like this seem to be a little too on the nose. They at least got the Absorbing man to deliver the line, who's been a raging misogynist in the past, but lines like this feel too much like just directly addressing the critics of the book.

There was another one I remember too, I think it took place in a comic shop or something, lemme see if I can find it, luckily these scenes are few and far between, still feel kind of out of place in the greater Marvel universe though.

Edit: also, I don't think this is nearly as bad as Moore's One More Day speech, as that one pretty much insulted a vast majority of geeks everywhere in a direct generalizing fashion, this one is mostly just lamely insulting critics of the new female Thor.

 

[Zontar]

Seriously, how the hell did this get through the editorial proses? That whole scene was both racist, sexist and the biggest insult to the readership since One Day More's "escapism is for losers" scene.

can I ask what the scene in question was?

There's a scene where an unnamed man basically is sitting on a bench and explained "why" we play games or read books. It's basically an insult to the people who play games or read books, which is all the more grating when you realize it's coming from a man who's job is to work with such fiction in a position that countless people only dream of holding.

Here's Linkara's review of the story, skip to 36:00 for the scene. Both he and a lot of fans tend to associate the mess with Questada's editing given how edited the comics where coupled with JMS' work not really showing he feels that way about escapism.


Edit: upon reflection I'm not sure weather you where talking about the scene from Thorina's comic or from One More Day.

 

[Zontar]

Edit: also, I don't think this is nearly as bad as Moore's One More Day speech, as that one pretty much insulted a vast majority of geeks everywhere in a direct generalizing fashion, this one is mostly just lamely insulting critics of the new female Thor.

Well, I did saw "since One More Day" for a reason. If anything topped that in terms of comics insulting the reader, I'm not aware of it.

 

[Vault101]

[snip.

that? I'd hardly call that sexist/insuling

on the nose? sure

but honestly I might have more of a problem with it if people DIDN'T talk that way and (lets be honest) or if there..."weren't" "issues" with that kind of stuff

but there are...or at least I think so

[snip

jesus fucking Christ....I mean I get pretty cynical about "certain demographics" often enough (particularly given recent uh..."events) but that's just taking it too far

maybe that or he's clearly clueless about the games development

 

[EternallyBored]

Edit: also, I don't think this is nearly as bad as Moore's One More Day speech, as that one pretty much insulted a vast majority of geeks everywhere in a direct generalizing fashion, this one is mostly just lamely insulting critics of the new female Thor.

Well, I did saw "since One More Day" for a reason. If anything topped that in terms of comics insulting the reader, I'm not aware of it.

While still not as insulting as One More Day, have two more:

Spoiler

and

I'll admit, the second one made me laugh. It's from the new Loki series.