Why did some people not enjoy MGS4?

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TheButtonMashEffect

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Oh, and the whole "enough people bought the game" doesn't mean the story was good, or even decent. It just means that people bought the game. How many people know a game's story before they even buy/play it? Nobody. Dur.[/quote]

I was refering to that it must have enough Metal gear fans that wanted the game.
 

Remnant

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..or, as I noted, people who bought it because of the hype, people who bought it because they wanted a PS3 and it was cheaper to get bundled with MGS 4 (I know 'em).

Hell, people could have bought it as an introduction to the game. Look at Fallout 3's success - how many of those people do you think actually played the first 2 games? Most of 'em are too young to have got into the original Fallout games.

That would be as unfounded as me saying Fallout has a lot of fans because Fallout 3 sold well. It's an absurd over-simplification.
 

TheButtonMashEffect

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Remnant said:
..or, as I noted, people who bought it because of the hype, people who bought it because they wanted a PS3 and it was cheaper to get bundled with MGS 4 (I know 'em).

Hell, people could have bought it as an introduction to the game. Look at Fallout 3's success - how many of those people do you think actually played the first 2 games? Most of 'em are too young to have got into the original Fallout games.

That would be as unfounded as me saying Fallout has a lot of fans because Fallout 3 sold well. It's an absurd over-simplification.
Thats what i mean i could appeal more to non-fans of the series. Espically with fallout 3 that is a very vaild case.
 

MrBrightside919

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RaRaLoco said:
MrBrightside919 said:
RaRaLoco said:
MrBrightside919 said:
RaRaLoco said:
MrBrightside919 said:
MGS4 is REALLY only for the fans because at this point in the story, newbies wouldn't like it too much.
Not true actually. I had only played MGS3 before 4, then i went back and played the other two. So i was not so much a fan of the series before i played it.
But you played the other games. I'm talking about newbies to the series who have never played the other 3 games.
Metal gear 3 and 4 are really completely different games though. To be honest i think MGS4 would appeal more to new players of the series than to the fans because it's not really what they are use to.
Objection!

I can see what you are saying but I don't really agree.
Fair enough. But compared to the other 3 4 is a different sort of game. Maybe because of the story it is just for fans, but enough people brought the game.
Compared to the other MGS games in general, MGS4 is VERY different. If people can get past the story then sure, they will probably like it.
 

TheButtonMashEffect

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MrBrightside919 said:
RaRaLoco said:
MrBrightside919 said:
RaRaLoco said:
MrBrightside919 said:
RaRaLoco said:
MrBrightside919 said:
MGS4 is REALLY only for the fans because at this point in the story, newbies wouldn't like it too much.
Not true actually. I had only played MGS3 before 4, then i went back and played the other two. So i was not so much a fan of the series before i played it.
But you played the other games. I'm talking about newbies to the series who have never played the other 3 games.
Metal gear 3 and 4 are really completely different games though. To be honest i think MGS4 would appeal more to new players of the series than to the fans because it's not really what they are use to.
Objection!

I can see what you are saying but I don't really agree.
Fair enough. But compared to the other 3 4 is a different sort of game. Maybe because of the story it is just for fans, but enough people brought the game.
Compared to the other MGS games in general, MGS4 is VERY different. If people can get past the story then sure, they will probably like it.
Well i just read your review and you liked it.
 

sheic99

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black lincon said:
I have never played it but the two things I've heard about it that are negative are; A. it has enough cutscenes to be a short movie, and B. the story makes no sense unless you've played through all the prequels.

Aside I've only really heard anything bad about the game, but you may not realize it's faults because you've convinced yourself that it's the bestest game evar.
I call shenanigans on A.

There are cutscenes that last 90 minutes. That was why they added the ability to pause them.
 

MrBrightside919

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RaRaLoco said:
MrBrightside919 said:
RaRaLoco said:
MrBrightside919 said:
RaRaLoco said:
MrBrightside919 said:
RaRaLoco said:
MrBrightside919 said:
MGS4 is REALLY only for the fans because at this point in the story, newbies wouldn't like it too much.
Not true actually. I had only played MGS3 before 4, then i went back and played the other two. So i was not so much a fan of the series before i played it.
But you played the other games. I'm talking about newbies to the series who have never played the other 3 games.
Metal gear 3 and 4 are really completely different games though. To be honest i think MGS4 would appeal more to new players of the series than to the fans because it's not really what they are use to.
Objection!

I can see what you are saying but I don't really agree.
Fair enough. But compared to the other 3 4 is a different sort of game. Maybe because of the story it is just for fans, but enough people brought the game.
Compared to the other MGS games in general, MGS4 is VERY different. If people can get past the story then sure, they will probably like it.
Well i just read your review and you liked it.
Well i've always been a fan
 

TheButtonMashEffect

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sheic99 said:
black lincon said:
I have never played it but the two things I've heard about it that are negative are; A. it has enough cutscenes to be a short movie, and B. the story makes no sense unless you've played through all the prequels.

Aside I've only really heard anything bad about the game, but you may not realize it's faults because you've convinced yourself that it's the bestest game evar.
I call shenanigans on A.

There are cutscenes that last 90 minutes. That was why they added the ability to pause them.
No there isn't at most just over half and hour. Have you even played the game?
 

Kikosemmek

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I never found myself liking any of the MGS games. Two of my friends played all of them extensively, and whenever they'd show me a cutscene (many times) or I'd just watch them play, I found myself unimpressed. This dejection is compounded by the wide acclaim that MGS games have gotten, and even more by MGS4's reported strong points being gameplay and storyline, which in my opinion are the main problems with the whole series.

The story is convoluted to the point of irrelevance. It seems that every plotline has a twist for the sake of having a twist. The beauty is that throughout the story, while I start yawning at everything that happens and revel in the utter boredom it presents, the characters never change their outlook on things. Snake always plays the aloof, experienced anti-hero and will always oppose Liquid Snake and Ocelot, no matter how many times major facts he thought were true were proven not to be true. That is called lack of adaptation, and is not good writing. Kojima himself has publicly stated that he made the story up as he went, and sometimes for reasons not at all concerned with the storyline. For example, he had Snake be an older man in MGS4 in order to see how the PS3 renders an old face. He's basically consciously feeding the public his own shit, knowing that they eat it up. The tragedy is that they do eat it up.

The dialogue is the cheesiest, most annoying thing about every cutscene. I swear that I heard 'I'm no hero' from Snake around seven times in MGS4 and I don't even own the game. It's all one large B-movie experience that is ultimately lost on me. It tries to be cool and classy but I read it like a book written for a high school English project. It's, for lack of a better word, garbage.

The gameplay, while technically sound, is ruined by moronic interactions with enemies that come straight out of the original Doom. Let me describe to you one fight that sticks in my mind. My friend hid behind a corner, and had enemies chase him. They all turned the corner, and the game popped out that trademark "!" along with its complementary sound _every time_. My friend then proceeded to shoot them off one by one as they stood there, pointing him, out, each doing exactly what the guy in front of him was, which was stand, look at Snake, and get shot. They did this while in single-file formation, feeding the player piecemeal kills. That is bullshit. There's no excuse to have no real AI when a game like Half-Life brought squad tactics against players back in 1999. It doesn't help that the enemies emit the same reaction and sound every time they get wounded, making them seem arcadish and sloppy, which takes away from the only good thing about MGS4: presentation.

What it lacked in everything, MGS4 had in abundance in presentation. It looked great, and the action sequences were fantastic. The seamless transition between cutscene and gameplay was sublime and that's basically the list of what's good about MGS4.

I'm sorry, but it never really did anything. Hideo Kojima passes as a cinematographer, not a writer, not a director, and definitely not an editor. Hey, at least he's still better than Michael Bay.
 

DirkGently

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RaRaLoco said:
DirkGently said:
Because I paid $60 for a game of tactical espionage action and instead got a movie?
But you got a great game as well. Plus you can skip the cutscenes its not like it makes you sit there and not let you pause or skip them like some games.
I got a game that would have been great if it had stopped and decided which it wanted to be. Stealth? Action? Have a story that made sense? That could easily be beaten on the first play through in six hours, not counting cutscenes? Shit, Halo is longer than that.

Nevermind that the story is six kinds of batshit crazy. i'm told I need to the experience of the other games to make it good, but if that's the case it doesn't deserve the praise it's given it.
 

DirkGently

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RaRaLoco said:
sheic99 said:
black lincon said:
I have never played it but the two things I've heard about it that are negative are; A. it has enough cutscenes to be a short movie, and B. the story makes no sense unless you've played through all the prequels.

Aside I've only really heard anything bad about the game, but you may not realize it's faults because you've convinced yourself that it's the bestest game evar.
I call shenanigans on A.

There are cutscenes that last 90 minutes. That was why they added the ability to pause them.
No there isn't at most just over half and hour. Have you even played the game?
The individual cutscenes, sure they're not so long, but it puts five of the motherfuckers in a row. Christ, there were four before the final boss fight, which was also bullshit for it is just suddenly thrust upon you with no introduction at all.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post, I thought I was in the edit screen for my first one.
 

PedroSteckecilo

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Feb 7, 2008
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Arkvoodle said:
Tattaglia said:
Too much movie, not enough game.


That's pretty much my feeling in a nutshell.
Not really, MGS4 has about 10 hours of game and about 10 hours of cutscenes, granted the ratio is stupid silly BUT look at some other games...

The original Gears clocked in at around 10 hours, so did Halo 3, so do MOST action games these days. So you're really not getting "more movie than game" you're getting the same amount of gameplay PLUS tons of movie.
 

DoW Lowen

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Kikosemmek said:
I never found myself liking any of the MGS games. Two of my friends played all of them extensively, and whenever they'd show me a cutscene (many times) or I'd just watch them play, I found myself unimpressed. This dejection is compounded by the wide acclaim that MGS games have gotten, and even more by MGS4's reported strong points being gameplay and storyline, which in my opinion are the main problems with the whole series.

The story is convoluted to the point of irrelevance. It seems that every plotline has a twist for the sake of having a twist. The beauty is that throughout the story, while I start yawning at everything that happens and revel in the utter boredom it presents, the characters never change their outlook on things. Snake always plays the aloof, experienced anti-hero and will always oppose Liquid Snake and Ocelot, no matter how many times major facts he thought were true were proven not to be true. That is called lack of adaptation, and is not good writing. Kojima himself has publicly stated that he made the story up as he went, and sometimes for reasons not at all concerned with the storyline. For example, he had Snake be an older man in MGS4 in order to see how the PS3 renders an old face. He's basically consciously feeding the public his own shit, knowing that they eat it up. The tragedy is that they do eat it up.

The dialogue is the cheesiest, most annoying thing about every cutscene. I swear that I heard 'I'm no hero' from Snake around seven times in MGS4 and I don't even own the game. It's all one large B-movie experience that is ultimately lost on me. It tries to be cool and classy but I read it like a book written for a high school English project. It's, for lack of a better word, garbage.

The gameplay, while technically sound, is ruined by moronic interactions with enemies that come straight out of the original Doom. Let me describe to you one fight that sticks in my mind. My friend hid behind a corner, and had enemies chase him. They all turned the corner, and the game popped out that trademark "!" along with its complementary sound _every time_. My friend then proceeded to shoot them off one by one as they stood there, pointing him, out, each doing exactly what the guy in front of him was, which was stand, look at Snake, and get shot. They did this while in single-file formation, feeding the player piecemeal kills. That is bullshit. There's no excuse to have no real AI when a game like Half-Life brought squad tactics against players back in 1999. It doesn't help that the enemies emit the same reaction and sound every time they get wounded, making them seem arcadish and sloppy, which takes away from the only good thing about MGS4: presentation.

What it lacked in everything, MGS4 had in abundance in presentation. It looked great, and the action sequences were fantastic. The seamless transition between cutscene and gameplay was sublime and that's basically the list of what's good about MGS4.

I'm sorry, but it never really did anything. Hideo Kojima passes as a cinematographer, not a writer, not a director, and definitely not an editor. Hey, at least he's still better than Michael Bay.
I'd have to respectfully disagree with you there buddy.

There's a difference between playing the actual game and watching someone else play. While I admit I never played the entire MGS2 and MGS3 all the way through, I'm quite familiar with the story. And Snake DOES change from game to game, over time he went from a military dog to the disillusioned figure you see in number 4. He is free thinking, and he is a man based off instinct, the cut scenes are long and sometimes pretentious, but it's never preachy or didactic, it's a story and it's told very well if you play the whole thing through. The story is far beyond the characters, it's about the growing power of the military. War's fought by proxy, government's and systems no longer ruled by strong leaders or passion but rather by cold logic and technological superiority. It's a truly mature concept and though some games and even movies explore this concept, say Army of Two (which failed at it terribly) and Lord of War, it's way over people's heads for the average developer to successfully depict in it's entirety. The fact that the message got through is enough to show that there is very competent story telling within the game. And why do they have to change their minds and outlooks? Liquid was the enemy, and even if he was trying to destroy the system, Snake was never concerned with that, he only wanted Liquid. And so what if he made it up as he went? Stephen King, who is one of the greatest story teller's of all time makes up all his stories as he writes them. To plan ahead can sometimes make the writer ignore glaring flaws and plot holes in their story, I know this because I write quite a bit myself and I've come across this very problem. While I admit, the story is no Legacy of Kain, it's still a very profound and epic tale. The production quality on the game is better than many Hollywood blockbusters, and though it's drawn out, it's allowed to be that way because it IS a game. Game's a new and deep medium for the story writer, and I envy game script writers because they have the capacity to tell great stories and execute exactly as they envision. At the very least MGS4 is a stepping into something wonderful. Movies seem to have lost the ability to explore worlds and recite great stories and characters, art has degraded into obnoxious, elitist and arbitrary symbolism and though books are still strong in that field, it doesn't appeal to everyone.

I'll agree with the game play points you present, but on the hardest difficulty you'll find the game satisfactory and a good challenge, unless you buy the best weapons and go on a shooting rampage. Wonder if anyone has done the entire game on the hardest level without killing or being seen. On the hardest difficulty your friend would've gotten shot once and probably flopped over and died. The gameplay could have been lengthened I admit, I would gladly trade a few cut scenes for a bit more fun, but no game is perfect I reckon. There's always something you hate about it.

And I'll probably get whacked fort his, but I don't mind Michael Bay films, they are a guilty pleasure to me. Sometimes I want to see mindless violence and special effects, not everyone can direct something like the godfather. And I'm glad not everyone does.
 

letsnoobtehpwns

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i haven't played it but i want to know why people hated grand theft auto 4. it's one of my favorite games of all time.
 

sheic99

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RaRaLoco said:
sheic99 said:
black lincon said:
I have never played it but the two things I've heard about it that are negative are; A. it has enough cutscenes to be a short movie, and B. the story makes no sense unless you've played through all the prequels.

Aside I've only really heard anything bad about the game, but you may not realize it's faults because you've convinced yourself that it's the bestest game evar.
I call shenanigans on A.

There are cutscenes that last 90 minutes. That was why they added the ability to pause them.
No there isn't at most just over half and hour. Have you even played the game?
What I said is that some, not all collected, last 90 minutes.
 

Monkeylord

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Kikosemmek said:
The gameplay, while technically sound, is ruined by moronic interactions with enemies that come straight out of the original Doom. Let me describe to you one fight that sticks in my mind. My friend hid behind a corner, and had enemies chase him. They all turned the corner, and the game popped out that trademark "!" along with its complementary sound _every time_. My friend then proceeded to shoot them off one by one as they stood there, pointing him, out, each doing exactly what the guy in front of him was, which was stand, look at Snake, and get shot. They did this while in single-file formation, feeding the player piecemeal kills. That is bullshit. There's no excuse to have no real AI when a game like Half-Life brought squad tactics against players back in 1999. It doesn't help that the enemies emit the same reaction and sound every time they get wounded, making them seem arcadish and sloppy, which takes away from the only good thing about MGS4: presentation.
MGS is a stealth game, and despite the increased focus on action the goal is not to slaughter legions of the enemy, but to get by them without them noticing. You aren't supposed to stand in the middle of the street and blow away PMCs as the come around the corner. Sure it's an easy way to get through the game, and sometimes great fun when you whip out the railgun on the mooks, but the easy way out is rarely the most satisfying.