Why Do Female Superheroes Rarely Date Normal Human Males?

[Cicada 5]

So why can't a non-super male possess qualities a super woman can like about him in spite of his lack of powers? Just cause he doesn't have powers, it doesn't mean he's inferior to her in every way.

You know, you make a good point, so I thought about why I insist a superheroine should date a superhero.

I got the answer: it's because as a female reader I'd tend to identify with the superheroine. And since it's a comic book fantasy, the one way to make a character look as valid as the superpowered protagonist is to make him superpowered too.

It's a comic book; imagine the heroine who is a magical alien princess controlling the power cosmic as she defeats ancient demigods from other dimensions.... then she goes back home to her boyfriend who works as an accountant. No, not gonna work. Unless you're a very good writer and write a specific type of story.

I'm not saying it can't ever happen mind you... I just find it not very likely, and also very boring on a narrative standpoint. Because if so, her boyfriend will be either the damsel in distress or a character that doesn't have much to do with the story.

Do I think a guy who has a preposterously low opinion of just about every body in the world except himself would speak like that? A man who sacrificed the woman he claimed to love to hell to gain super powers? A man whose ego makes it impossible fro him to admit his mistakes? A man who once tried to force himself on a peasant girl?

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2012/03/08/i-love-ya-but-youre-strange-that-time-dr-doom-tried-to-force-himself-on-a-peasant-girl/

Yeah I do.

In fact, I'd say what makes Doom so interesting is how deluded he is in thinking that he ISN'T just a petty, egotistical man child.

I have doubts concerning the extent of your knowledge about Victor Von Doom!
I'm a big fan of the character, and let me assure you, he is NOT the kind of guy to ever speak in such a manner. Anyone who read a bunch of comics about Doom knows how out of character and awful that scene is. Again, I repeat you, that panel is so famous precisely because of how bad it is.

Then again, we're talking about American superhero comics. There is no canon. Anything happens. Even Lobo at one point became a pretty boy out of some Twilight fanfic. So if there's room for a Lobo like that, there's room for such an awful, childish and ridiculous Doom.

EDIT:
Incidentally, one of the comments in the link you've given me already explains the issue: "Because it doesn?t fit with his deeply delusional self-image that he is ?fair, decent, and noble? in any area not involving killing Reed Richards. It also rather contradicts all those stories where he?s amusingly courtly with even mortal enemies who happen to be female. "

Fair points. It all comes down to preference I suppose.

Doom has done and said things on par or even worse than that panel. The guy tried to force himself on a peasant girl. He hates Reed for something Reed didn't even do. Also, him thinking of himself as fair, decent and noble doesn't mean he acts that way all the time or that he can't see his action as ignoble or hypocritical.

 

[Lightknight]

She is a powerless incarnation of a superhero. That she is normal in that universe is somewhat irrelevant.

It is impossible for me to disagree more strongly that not have special hardware, special training, and a place on a team of superheroes is an irrelevant consideration when deciding whether she can be accurately described as having special hardware, special training, and a place on a team of superheroes. Seriously, are you taking the piss here? I'm really asking, because I can't tell.

So, if full-powered wonder woman dated a powerless clark kent in Earth 345 or whatever, you would deem that as a legitimate example of her just dating some Normie? I generally see it as a person with the full potential of being a super hero at any point in the story. Her dating Clark Kent would be different from her dating Joe Blow (forgive me if that is the name of an actual hero of some kind).

Either way, they stink of him to put it bluntly and their in-story cast also reeks of him from name alliteration to everything else.

I invite you to prove which aspects of their character creation he is responsible for, then, though I question what profit you perceive you have on doing so.

It's unnecessary. It's a common theme that spans nearly the entirety of his body of work. Do you believe it's coincidence that he had a hand in so many of their stories?

Regardless, the large list of female super heroes that have dated regular males or females has largely put this (the point of the thread) all to bed. Wouldn't you agree?

The thought of having defending someone catering to their customer base is ridiculous.

I agree; so why are you doing it?

The premise of the thread is that men date a lot of normal girls and that the implications of this is perhaps sexist. Either that was the goal of the OP (no offense) or has become the point of debate going forward.

Hence the need to defend that creating a story of a super hero dating a normal person is not bad.

 

[WolfThomas]

I'd think for the purposes of this, a "normal" person would be someone who isn't involved in the superhero game regularly. An awful lot of the "normal" types superheroes date end up with temporary powers at some point or are exceptional "normal" types, like Moira being a genius and world renowned geneticist or Lois Lane temporarily having Kryptonian powers. If we discount all of those individuals, hardly any hero, male or female has ever dated a "normal" person. Which isn't all that surprising given that the writers are going to want to do more with the love interest than have them sit around eating snacks all day.

You raise excellent points about love interests often gaining temporary powers and being hyper competent.

I will continue to to argue John Jameson however. I think he has been Man-Wolf for 6-7 times over the years that's definitely more than just a temporary power.

 

[JimB]

So, if full-powered Wonder Woman dated a powerless Clark Kent in Earth 345 or whatever, you would deem that as a legitimate example of her just dating some normie?

I'd pretty much have to, since the original question said nothing about limiting the trend to specific continuities. I wouldn't assign it as much weight as I would the Miles/Kate thing, though, since the Ultimate universe existed for something like fifteen years and Miles Morales was Spider-Man for something like five of them.

It's unnecessary. It's a common theme that spans nearly the entirety of his body of work. Do you believe it's coincidence that he had a hand in so many of their stories?

No, but I think you give him too much credit as what you seem to think is the sole author of the trend. Superman did it decades before any of Stan Lee's popular works rose. Both Barry Allen and Jay Garrick (the Flash) predate Spider-Man, and they both had normie-girlfriends, as do both Alan Scott and Hal Jordan (Green Lantern). Ibis the Invincible was dating a mortal woman. Captain Triumph (or half of him, anyway) was perpetually engaged to normie Kim Meredith. Ray Palmer (the Atom) had plain ol' Jean Loring.

Stan Lee did not create the trend of superpowed men dating mortal women. If anything, compared to most of the women on this list, his only innovation was to not give the women evil, superpowered split personalities.

Regardless, the large list of female super heroes that have dated regular males or females has largely put this (the point of the thread) all to bed. Wouldn't you agree?

How has it done so? Has it matched the list of male superheroes dating nonpowered women in number, or in percentage, or what?

The premise of the thread is that men date a lot of normal girls and that the implications of this is perhaps sexist.

Uh, Agent_Z said no such thing. I said so, but he didn't.

 

[Gorrath]

I'd think for the purposes of this, a "normal" person would be someone who isn't involved in the superhero game regularly. An awful lot of the "normal" types superheroes date end up with temporary powers at some point or are exceptional "normal" types, like Moira being a genius and world renowned geneticist or Lois Lane temporarily having Kryptonian powers. If we discount all of those individuals, hardly any hero, male or female has ever dated a "normal" person. Which isn't all that surprising given that the writers are going to want to do more with the love interest than have them sit around eating snacks all day.

You raise excellent points about love interests often gaining temporary powers and being hyper competent.

I will continue to to argue John Jameson however. I think he has been Man-Wolf for 6-7 times over the years that's definitely more than just a temporary power.

Oh sure, and I'd not argue against that as I'm really not familiar enough to do so. I just had a bit of a worry that the whole thing would devolve into a lot of no true scotsman back-and-forth if we started discounting anyone who was "exceptional-normal" or who ahd ever had any kind of powers. I don't know too much about Jameson but even with him struck from the list there's still plenty of "normal" men who dated superhero women. Not that you seemed to be arguing that there weren't, you just mentioned why Jameson shouldn't count, which is fair enough.

 

[Gorrath]

Regardless, the large list of female super heroes that have dated regular males or females has largely put this (the point of the thread) all to bed. Wouldn't you agree?

How has it done so? Has it matched the list of male superheroes dating nonpowered women in number, or in percentage, or what?

Well, going just by what the OP did say, the premise of the thread seemed to be that, other than the two examples OP could think of, female superheroes dating regular people was "rare." Since no qualification is given to what constitutes "rare" it's all quite subjective. One might say the list I provided showed that it is much more common than at least the OP seemed to believe. If you'll only be satisfied by a full accounting for comparison, I'm not sure there's a resource that could even help us figure out what the real numbers are and original research seems impossible given none of us have every comic book ever (I assume, anyway.) So I guess we are left with merely challenging the assertion that it's "rare." Given the list I can provide off the top of my head, I'd think it's not. I presume you might still assert that it is?

 

[Gorrath]

Stupid double-posts

 

[Roguebubble]

Here's a list of couples I've got from a quick search:
Invisible Woman and Mr Fantastic; Scarlet Witch and Vision; Rogue and Gambit; Cyclops and Jean Grey and then Emma Frost; Hank Pym and Wasp; Kitty Pryde and Colossus; Hawkgirl and Hawkman; Green Arrow and Black Canary; Richard Grayson (Robin/Nightwing) and Batgirl and Starfire; Daredevil and Elektra; Hawkeye and Mockingbird; Jessica Jones and Luke Cage; Storm and Black Panther; X-23 and Hellion and recently a time-displaced Angel; Ultimate Peter Parker and Ultimate Kitty Pryde; Black Bolt and Medusa; Raven and Beast Boy; Psylocke and Angel; the aforementioned Superman and Wonder Woman and many others.
So it does appear that the OP has a basis. I personally think this down to how many female superheroes started out either as a supporting character in another book or part of a team book and that until recently have not had a long running solo series where they could build a supporting caste which may include a "normal" romantic spouse.

 

[Lightknight]

So, if full-powered Wonder Woman dated a powerless Clark Kent in Earth 345 or whatever, you would deem that as a legitimate example of her just dating some normie?

I'd pretty much have to, since the original question said nothing about limiting the trend to specific continuities. I wouldn't assign it as much weight as I would the Miles/Kate thing, though, since the Ultimate universe existed for something like fifteen years and Miles Morales was Spider-Man for something like five of them.

I think that wouldn't be true to the spirit of comics. So many times they try to show that the hero is more than just a hero because of their powers but rather who they are. So many "more than the suit" storylines come to mind and it's the overt message they're trying to send that the spirit of a superhero can lie in wait in anyone. I know that's cheesy and over the top, but you've got to acknowledge that as a recurring theme. No?

It's unnecessary. It's a common theme that spans nearly the entirety of his body of work. Do you believe it's coincidence that he had a hand in so many of their stories?

No, but I think you give him too much credit as what you seem to think is the sole author of the trend. Superman did it decades before any of Stan Lee's popular works rose. Both Barry Allen and Jay Garrick (the Flash) predate Spider-Man, and they both had normie-girlfriends, as do both Alan Scott and Hal Jordan (Green Lantern). Ibis the Invincible was dating a mortal woman. Captain Triumph (or half of him, anyway) was perpetually engaged to normie Kim Meredith. Ray Palmer (the Atom) had plain ol' Jean Loring.

Stan Lee did not create the trend of superpowed men dating mortal women. If anything, compared to most of the women on this list, his only innovation was to not give the women evil, superpowered split personalities.

I can't help it if you personally inferred that I was saying he singlehandedly created all of those. I was just referring to ones who he is cited as having a credit in creating them. It is not coincidence that so many characters he had a hand in have similar qualities including love interests.

Regardless, the large list of female super heroes that have dated regular males or females has largely put this (the point of the thread) all to bed. Wouldn't you agree?

How has it done so? Has it matched the list of male superheroes dating nonpowered women in number, or in percentage, or what?

You and others produced a fairly anecdotal list of male superheroes dating normal people. The responders posted a comparable list.

I apologize but by the rules of engagement the burden of proof would now lie with you to establish a significant different in trend that is in line with proportion of expressed genders in the superhero community,

The premise of the thread is that men date a lot of normal girls and that the implications of this is perhaps sexist.

Uh, Agent_Z said no such thing. I said so, but he didn't.

Is there a reason why you said this but cut off the followup sentence in which I clarified that even if the OP didn't intend it, that is where the thread now is? You basically said that you turned the thread that way which is exactly in line with the sentence you omitted: "Either that was the goal of the OP (no offense) or has become the point of debate going forward."

Why do you think your response somehow makes the latter qualification incorrect?

 

[Lightknight]

Regardless, the large list of female super heroes that have dated regular males or females has largely put this (the point of the thread) all to bed. Wouldn't you agree?

How has it done so? Has it matched the list of male superheroes dating nonpowered women in number, or in percentage, or what?

Well, going just by what the OP did say, the premise of the thread seemed to be that, other than the two examples OP could think of, female superheroes dating regular people was "rare." Since no qualification is given to what constitutes "rare" it's all quite subjective. One might say the list I provided showed that it is much more common than at least the OP seemed to believe. If you'll only be satisfied by a full accounting for comparison, I'm not sure there's a resource that could even help us figure out what the real numbers are and original research seems impossible given none of us have every comic book ever (I assume, anyway.) So I guess we are left with merely challenging the assertion that it's "rare." Given the list I can provide off the top of my head, I'd think it's not. I presume you might still assert that it is?

Right, given that you can list off the top of your head numerous superheroines who have dabbled with normies it should therefore be safely concluded that the OP's use of "rarely" was merely due to a lack of knowledge of those examples because rare it 'aint'.

 

[ccggenius12]

Eh, I blame it on the fact that if a character is around superheroes but is not already a superhero, they WILL, at some point, either die or get powers. I'd like to know what percentage of female heroes started out as a love interest for an already existing hero/villain. Like, it's not terribly surprising that Star Sapphire is dating Green Lantern, seeing as Carol was created as Hal Jordan's love interest.
Give it time, and I think it'll all even out. I mean, if Aunt May can be a Herald of Galactus, eventually everyone who's considered normal in the books will be a super of some stripe. (see: Betsy Ross/She-Rulk, Jane Foster/She-Thor, etc.)

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

More choice of male heros for female heros to date. There is a lack of female superheros so the male heros have to settle for normal women or forever be alone.

 

[WolfThomas]

Oh sure, and I'd not argue against that as I'm really not familiar enough to do so. I just had a bit of a worry that the whole thing would devolve into a lot of no true scotsman back-and-forth if we started discounting anyone who was "exceptional-normal" or who ahd ever had any kind of powers. I don't know too much about Jameson but even with him struck from the list there's still plenty of "normal" men who dated superhero women. Not that you seemed to be arguing that there weren't, you just mentioned why Jameson shouldn't count, which is fair enough.

Fair enough. I just like talking about John Jameson. Did you know he was also a Superhero called Colonel Jupiter? Though only for 2 issues.

 

[Gorrath]

Oh sure, and I'd not argue against that as I'm really not familiar enough to do so. I just had a bit of a worry that the whole thing would devolve into a lot of no true scotsman back-and-forth if we started discounting anyone who was "exceptional-normal" or who ahd ever had any kind of powers. I don't know too much about Jameson but even with him struck from the list there's still plenty of "normal" men who dated superhero women. Not that you seemed to be arguing that there weren't, you just mentioned why Jameson shouldn't count, which is fair enough.

Fair enough. I just like talking about John Jameson. Did you know he was also a Superhero called Colonel Jupiter? Though only for 2 issues.

Just checked out his WIKI page. The Captain Jupiter stuff seems kind-a cool. I'll see if I can get a hold of the issues for a look-see. Thanks!

 

[Lightknight]

Whoops, accidentally hit a mouse wheel over a flag icon and reported a post in this thread. The post has nothing offensive in it but I have no idea how to tell mods about the error. It always seems difficult to know which group of mods to contact in specific forums.

 

[Entaris]

Because dating a normal man would mean that the woman was stronger than the man. And that's a no-no.

That or a super woman is more likely to crush a normal mans pelvis... Not entirely sure why the opposite isn't true though.

 

[Asita]

There's an episode of Batman Beyond where Bruce is browsing through pictures of women he's dated, which included Lois Lane.

I'm only passingly familiar with that program. Do you have a name of that episode so I can check a few things?

"Out of the Past," Episode 5 of Season 3

http://dcau.wikia.com/wiki/Out_of_the_Past

Thank you very much, Agent_Z. Unfortunately, I must inform you that the episode "Out of the Past" aired four years prior to the episode of Justice League Unlimited we're discussing, "This Little Piggy."

If I may butt in? JLU was very overt about their mutual attraction, but there is no indication in the show that they actually started a romantic relationship, and indeed showed Bruce rather stubbornly trying to keep it professional.

Spoiler

And to be perfectly fair, that's actually a wise decision on Bruce's part considering that the mutual attraction was apparently something of an open secret, Diana (at least in the DCAU's Justice League) didn't have a secret identity to speak of and didn't make any effort to hide her superhero identity when she was off the clock (so to speak), and a romance would inevitably see Diana with both Bruce Wayne and Batman and consequentially jeopardize his own secret identity.

Mind you, I actually like the two of them together, but to my memory Justice League never really made them an official couple.

 

[SteewpidZombie]

Because some men are afraid of being the bottom-***** in the relationship. Plain and simple.

It's the idea that the woman can't be the dominant partner, because that would mean the man is put into the 'housewife' role in the relationship.

Which is pretty stupid in modern society to be afraid of, yet alot of writers still come from the generation where a man having 'feelings' or being 'weak' were looked down on. So while I think it's perfectly fine if for example: Supergirl had a human husband who stayed home and looked after the kids kinda situation, it's just one of those things where some guys would practically tear their hair out while screaming "OMAGARD IT'S SO WRONG!!!" as they froth from the mouth and drag their knuckles on the pavement.

 

[Tono Makt]

Why do you think writers don't have female superheroes dating normal men a whole lot?

1) Crossover potential.
How many female superheroes have their own individual comic book series/tv shows/etc/? Of those, how many sell well enough to not need crossover with more popular comic books series/tv shows/etc.? I would imagine the number is quite small, and so to keep the options open the writers opt to have the female super heroes date other super heroes.

2) Amount of time in the show/space on the comic pages/etc.
For female super heroes who are part of larger teams, or who share time/space/etc. with other heroes, exploring the dynamics of a Super Hero Woman and a Non-Powered/Non-Super Hero Man requires time/space dedicated to it because you can't simply use the age-old shorthand that was developed for Male Superhero-Non-powered/Non-Superhero female (ie: Superman - Lois Lane) over 7+ decades of comics. They have to develop new shorthand to describe this less-common kind of relationship.

3) Ideas of what women look for in relationships
It is a fairly well accepted idea in our culture that women look for equals or superiors for relationships, and that they are looking for fathers for potential children. This idea is held by writers and readers, and influences what readers expect to see and what writers expect readers to expect. (for both male and female readers/writers) Having a non-superhero man in a relationship with a superhero woman does not fit into this dynamic, and so runs right into Point 2 - to include it requires a large amount of time/space to explain why this relationship is "unique" or special. (Whether this idea is accurate is irrelevant for this discussion - I've actually been googling scientific studies on this topic lately, and the results are extremely mixed and politicized.)

4) Pushback from non-creative executives
Executives are looking to make money, and anything that might not make them money is to be avoided when possible - it's a risk. A "non-traditional" (in the comic book sense) relationship is a risk.

5) General laziness from creative types
Writers run into #4, and decide not to push back against it.

6) Consumers
We're less likely to suspend our disbelief when something pushes us out of our comfort zone. We may not immediately dismiss it or hate it, but we are more likely to look for ways to pick it apart. "She said she had to work late in Issue 7, but in Issue 6 she commented that her law firm was cutting back on hours to save money. How is he not seeing through these lies - he's a lawyer too!" or "Why isn't he asking her about the bandages on her legs?" or "Why isn't he asking how she got all those bruises when she was supposed to be at a company retreat in Aspen?" etc.

None are particularly good reasons or excuses for it, mind you,

 

[deeman010]

Women tend to date up whilst men tend to date down. It's not that hard to believe that a group of writers, whether consciously or subconsciously, made it true for their fictional characters.