Why do people say that Capitalism is good?

[mechanixis]

You got a better idea?

Yes! Several.

okay... any that would actually work?
(no offense intended!)

My idea is an integrated system of Capitalism and Communism where needs are provided by the state and entrepreneurial and entertainment industries are controlled by the market. It's not as flashy or lucrative as Capitalism, but its more stable and still supports progress.

But no, I can't vouch for anything that 'works' because historically, nothing has 'worked' and that's why we're still talking about it. But in my opinion, America is currently circling the drain because it took Capitalism too far.

Communism is good, on paper, but as the past 100 years have shown, communism is a major fuck up. It simply does not work and will not work for as long as we are human and have human tenancies.

I never said Communism was preferable - it has it's own problems. I only referenced the anti-Communism thread because most people against it used Capitalism as their defense.

 

[SmartIdiot]

What a thread. Have you, by any chance, been hanging around on the anarchist federation website? You seem to have similar views on this.

 

[Clobbertron]

snip

First of all pure capitalism is not perfect and their is no pure capitalism.
second capitalism is great because you have the freedom to succeed or the freedom to fail.

You think people only steal in capitalism? wow you are stupid, blaming capitalism for theft.

"But it's so much easier to convince people of the superiority of your product than it is to make a genuinely superior one." So you pick up a candy bar that was advertised as great but its tasted like shit. Are you going to pick up another one?

...why do you want the freedom to fail?

I didn't say Capitalism invented theft. I said it incentivizes it.

And what if you spent your life savings on that candybar? What if we're talking about a house or a car?

icentivizes theft and where is theft not an incentive?

And you answer my question on failure. You always have options in capitalism which you are never given in a system where the government tells you what to do. It is not the fault of capitalism that you didn't do your research before plunging your life savings into something that is bound to fail.

To be honest, I would rather fail with freedom then live in a society where i can't make choices.

Okay, so say your bank burns down with your life savings inside. Or a company is good at hiding reasons not to buy their product. (The entire advertising industry.)

It's still your fault somehow? It's hubristic to think that you will only lose money in ways that are forseeable or make sense.

Ok were not talking about failure anymore. you are talking about misfortunes and making crap up at this point. When the automakers found out that their cars had a fault what did they do? Have you ever worked in retail? When company finds out they messed up on a product they have what we call "recalls"

If a company knowingly lies about something to sell a product they can be sued and the publicity will not do anything good for their stocks. A company is less likely to lie now than they would have about a hundred years ago.

Their is insurance for your house for fires if you don't have it that's your fault.

Blaming misfortunes on capitalism is just plain sad and your arguement gets very thin.

What I'm saying is that Capitalism is very bad at containing misfortune. Corporations ensure that sudden calamities or other incidents aren't isolated, they're nationwide. If you work in the carriage industry and the car is invented, everyone in your industry is now royally fucked - unless you have a backup skillset you've been cultivating, you're going to work for minimum wage until you're eighty to pay your bills.

Ok you really backpeddled there.
So the people start working in that industry that is developing or as people have been doing in these recent economic times are getting better education and more skill sets for jobs.

You think their would be no fallout from a change like that in a communist or socialist system? You are making a lot of false assumptions here.

The larger a system no matter what it is, if their is a huge failure their is going to be massive fallout. Think of a clock full of gears if one gear is out of alignment the clock doesn't work. So if a government is supporting every body then a large amount of people lose their jobs for whatever reason. That government is going to be put under a huge amount of strain and will be unable to support everybody like it was established.

Alright, alright, granted. There's going to be fallout regardless.

How about this: you're born poor. You aren't a genius with a brilliant new invention. You can't afford an education. The most you can hope to do is work a minimum wage job and scrape by. Is this deserved?

Ok more false assumptions and i have to get off im sleepy.
So i guess in our society right now thier are no ways to better yourself.
Wow!
Public schooling sucks but at least now you are given free chances to learn to read and write.
Now whether you wish to make your self smarter and get out of working minimum wage or not is your choice.

I cannot remember the man's name but he was a slave in the south and he did everything he could to learn how to read and he fled to the north where he put his new found skills to work. i will hopefully remember this man's name when i get some sleep.

This is why i love responsibility it is always the individuals burden. People better themselves all the time and then there are people who do not and make excuses saying they are disadvantaged.

Their is always a choice and the responsibility is weighed on the person and that is why people flee to government control. They fear responsibility.

The only reason we have public schools is that public schools are paid for by the state. Non-Capitalist. Private schools, on the other hand, cost huge sums of money to attend. Imagine the ratio of privately-educated Americans to publicly-educated ones for a moment.

Nonwithstanding that you can't really do anything beyond minimum wage with a highschool diploma (barring you are incredibly gifted and get a college scholarship), imagine if there were no public schools. That's the Capitalist scenario for education - unless you're born into money, you get no education whatsoever.

If there were no public schools people would just be funding their children's education instead of the state. So many children would be going to the private schools that the cost per person going to the school would be reduced because it would be spread out over a much greater population. That argument only works if the schools wouldn't reduce the cost, even though in the long run they would be gaining money because if they reduce the cost a lot more people would be willing to pay the lower price and the profit would even out.

 

[Dags90]

Then you have a world where everything is predetermined you never have a chance to win e.g. Socialism. One may not have a big chance to score big, but they still have a chance. Just like people winning the lottery. It's all about hope. Let those dream big and they will accomplish great things. Take away their dreams and they will die.

I think you misunderstand socialism. In socialism one is compensated entirely on their merits, no one is given privilege in education and other training. Things are limited, but not predetermined. That is to say, one won't be able to benefit from private tutors in education, not having to work during university etc, over a lower class person who must fight against having an inferior education and having to work.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

Companies may find it easier to convince people that their product is superior, which is why most of the general population stay where they are, economically speaking. Only those who are discriminating enough would be able to tell what is actually superior and what isn't and buy accordingly, therefore ensuring that they got the best product possible at the best possible price. Gaining wealth in a capitalistic society is just as much about buying intelligently as it is working hard and making something someone wants to buy, or fulfilling your obligation in your respective field..

And how the fuck are you supposed to learn how to "buy intelligently" if you come from apoor background and don't have the access to private and high-quality educations that is supposed to teach you to buy intelligently?

"oh, but there are public schools and, the public schools are blablabla". Public schools in capitalist societies are shit per definition, and the only reason they exist is because of socialis reasons and not capitalist ones.

SO really, how are the poor supposed to be able to "buy intelligently" when their education is kept at the barest minimum possible by the capitalistic oppression of simply not being born with enough money to educate yourself?

Face it, capitalism = one big fucking catch 22, and that's all it is...

 

[Lust]

Isn't this why shelters and half way homes are made? To help those in need.

Not in a 'True Capitalist' society. There's no profit in it unless the government funds it. How strongly did Americans fight the offer of free healthcare because it was 'socialist'?

There was a lot of people that wanted free healthcare. Some people I knew, wanted to move to Canada. Not everyone is a sociopath looking to swindle people for survival means. There are good people in this world.

I never said their weren't. But isn't it kind of shocking that it was even a debate?

Yeah, it would kinda be asking a lot from people.

 

[mechanixis]

snip

First of all pure capitalism is not perfect and their is no pure capitalism.
second capitalism is great because you have the freedom to succeed or the freedom to fail.

You think people only steal in capitalism? wow you are stupid, blaming capitalism for theft.

"But it's so much easier to convince people of the superiority of your product than it is to make a genuinely superior one." So you pick up a candy bar that was advertised as great but its tasted like shit. Are you going to pick up another one?

...why do you want the freedom to fail?

I didn't say Capitalism invented theft. I said it incentivizes it.

And what if you spent your life savings on that candybar? What if we're talking about a house or a car?

icentivizes theft and where is theft not an incentive?

And you answer my question on failure. You always have options in capitalism which you are never given in a system where the government tells you what to do. It is not the fault of capitalism that you didn't do your research before plunging your life savings into something that is bound to fail.

To be honest, I would rather fail with freedom then live in a society where i can't make choices.

Okay, so say your bank burns down with your life savings inside. Or a company is good at hiding reasons not to buy their product. (The entire advertising industry.)

It's still your fault somehow? It's hubristic to think that you will only lose money in ways that are forseeable or make sense.

Ok were not talking about failure anymore. you are talking about misfortunes and making crap up at this point. When the automakers found out that their cars had a fault what did they do? Have you ever worked in retail? When company finds out they messed up on a product they have what we call "recalls"

If a company knowingly lies about something to sell a product they can be sued and the publicity will not do anything good for their stocks. A company is less likely to lie now than they would have about a hundred years ago.

Their is insurance for your house for fires if you don't have it that's your fault.

Blaming misfortunes on capitalism is just plain sad and your arguement gets very thin.

What I'm saying is that Capitalism is very bad at containing misfortune. Corporations ensure that sudden calamities or other incidents aren't isolated, they're nationwide. If you work in the carriage industry and the car is invented, everyone in your industry is now royally fucked - unless you have a backup skillset you've been cultivating, you're going to work for minimum wage until you're eighty to pay your bills.

Ok you really backpeddled there.
So the people start working in that industry that is developing or as people have been doing in these recent economic times are getting better education and more skill sets for jobs.

You think their would be no fallout from a change like that in a communist or socialist system? You are making a lot of false assumptions here.

The larger a system no matter what it is, if their is a huge failure their is going to be massive fallout. Think of a clock full of gears if one gear is out of alignment the clock doesn't work. So if a government is supporting every body then a large amount of people lose their jobs for whatever reason. That government is going to be put under a huge amount of strain and will be unable to support everybody like it was established.

Alright, alright, granted. There's going to be fallout regardless.

How about this: you're born poor. You aren't a genius with a brilliant new invention. You can't afford an education. The most you can hope to do is work a minimum wage job and scrape by. Is this deserved?

Ok more false assumptions and i have to get off im sleepy.
So i guess in our society right now thier are no ways to better yourself.
Wow!
Public schooling sucks but at least now you are given free chances to learn to read and write.
Now whether you wish to make your self smarter and get out of working minimum wage or not is your choice.

I cannot remember the man's name but he was a slave in the south and he did everything he could to learn how to read and he fled to the north where he put his new found skills to work. i will hopefully remember this man's name when i get some sleep.

This is why i love responsibility it is always the individuals burden. People better themselves all the time and then there are people who do not and make excuses saying they are disadvantaged.

Their is always a choice and the responsibility is weighed on the person and that is why people flee to government control. They fear responsibility.

The only reason we have public schools is that public schools are paid for by the state. Non-Capitalist. Private schools, on the other hand, cost huge sums of money to attend. Imagine the ratio of privately-educated Americans to publicly-educated ones for a moment.

Nonwithstanding that you can't really do anything beyond minimum wage with a highschool diploma (barring you are incredibly gifted and get a college scholarship), imagine if there were no public schools. That's the Capitalist scenario for education - unless you're born into money, you get no education whatsoever.

ok... im talking about actual facts you are talking about what-ifs. since i don't support anarcho-capitalism your going to have to ask somebody else. and im getting some sleep.

Okay, look at America then. You can't deny the majority of the population can't afford higher education. My what-ifs are scarcely removed from reality.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

You got a better idea?

Yes! Several.

okay... any that would actually work?
(no offense intended!)

My idea is an integrated system of Capitalism and Communism where needs are provided by the state and entrepreneurial and entertainment industries are controlled by the market. It's not as flashy or lucrative as Capitalism, but its more stable and still supports progress.

But no, I can't vouch for anything that 'works' because historically, nothing has 'worked' and that's why we're still talking about it. But in my opinion, America is currently circling the drain because it took Capitalism too far.

Communism is good, on paper, but as the past 100 years have shown, communism is a major fuck up. It simply does not work and will not work for as long as we are human and have human tenancies.

I never said Communism was preferable - it has it's own problems. I only referenced the anti-Communism thread because most people against it used Capitalism as their defense.

I believe that would actually be a hybrid of capitalism and socialism, not communism.

 

[zhoominator]

while it has it's problems it is the best way to live

Unless of course you happen to be poor, in which case you get shat on whether or not you work 10 times more hard than your average accountant...

I think people who support capitalism completely fail to realise that hard work=/=more money. In fact, it mostly comes down to whether you were born into a house with lots of money.

If you had more money to begin with, you go to a better school, get better qualifications and thus get a better job earning more money. If you're born into a poor enviroment, the likelihood is that you'll get poor eductaion, be lucky to leave with any decent qualifications at all and end up in a dead end job earning peanuts. And thus the cycle continues, only increasing the rich-poor gap.

 

[Skinny_Ninja]

Then you have a world where everything is predetermined you never have a chance to win e.g. Socialism. One may not have a big chance to score big, but they still have a chance. Just like people winning the lottery. It's all about hope. Let those dream big and they will accomplish great things. Take away their dreams and they will die.

I think you misunderstand socialism. In socialism one is compensated entirely on their merits, no one is given privilege in education and other training. Things are limited, but not predetermined.

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[Lust]

while it has it's problems it is the best way to live

Unless of course you happen to be poor, in which case you get shat on whether or not you work 10 times more hard than your average accountant...

I think people who support capitalism completely fail to realise that hard work=/=more money. In fact, it mostly comes down to whether you were born into a house with lots of money.

If you had more money to begin with, you go to a better school, get better qualifications and thus get a better job earning more money. If you're born into a poor enviroment, the likelihood is that you'll get poor eductaion, be lucky to leave with any decent qualifications at all and end up in a dead end job earning peanuts. And thus the cycle continues, only increasing the rich-poor gap.

Oooo......well put.

 

[Pimppeter2]

Ok... So if you get robbed of your money in a capitalistic society, you die?

According to capitalist ideals, there's really no reason why anyone should provide you with food when someone has robbed you of your sola bility to procure food, and thuis you'll starve to death... You know, unless you rob someone else that is...

In a communistic world there is no reason for anyone to provide better services and products. And your defense wast that they are internally motivated for "progress"

Why doesn't the same loophole apply to capitalism? Why can't people be internally motivated to do something despite it not being beneficial to themselves personally?

Well if people are internally motivated, then why do we need to create this addition motivation? To see who can create the best advertisements for products that, ultimately, don't move society forward or fulfill any real need? Meaningful inventions don't come from a desire to acquire money. Cheap, eye-catching ones do.

The computers was invented to do the very tedious computations of business. Clearly computers aren't a great invention huh?

Okay, so if I strip down all the problems of capitalism, it also seems like the greatest Idea ever. If I strip down all the problems of Fascism, Dictatorships, and Anarchism, they all seem like good ideas too. So if you strip down all the problems of the problems of communism, it sounds good too.

 

[Dags90]

Thank you for proving my point.

So you're using the fact that capitalism is a non-meritocracy (it's a plutocracy) as a positive feature of it?

I think that would conflict with most peoples' ideas about justice.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

No one has said that capitalism isn't flawed. Only deranged communists believe that they can make a flawless world.

And only deranged capitalist keep up defending capitalism as if it was the best ideology in the world, despite the fact that capitalism evidently only improves the quality of life of a small minority while keeping the majority poor and downtrodden.

 

[Leadfinger]

Well reasoned argument, my friend.

 

[mechanixis]

Ok... So if you get robbed of your money in a capitalistic society, you die?

According to capitalist ideals, there's really no reason why anyone should provide you with food when someone has robbed you of your sola bility to procure food, and thuis you'll starve to death... You know, unless you rob someone else that is...

In a communistic world there is no reason for anyone to provide better services and products. And your defense wast that they are internally motivated for "progress"

Why doesn't the same loophole apply to capitalism? Why can't people be internally motivated to do something despite it not being beneficial to themselves personally?

Well if people are internally motivated, then why do we need to create this addition motivation? To see who can create the best advertisements for products that, ultimately, don't move society forward or fulfill any real need? Meaningful inventions don't come from a desire to acquire money. Cheap, eye-catching ones do.

The computers was invented to do the very tedious computations of business. Clearly computers aren't a great invention huh?

Okay, so if I strip down all the problems of capitalism, it also seems like the greatest Idea ever. If I strip down all the problems of Fascism, Dictatorships, and Anarchism, they all seem like good ideas too. So if you strip down all the problems of the problems of communism, it sounds good too.

Alright, I overstated. Good inventions can come from capitalism. But something like the computer would also have evolved eventually from some other need in a non-Capitalist society, because it's a necessary step to further sociotechnological growth.

Basically, is the acceleration of progress Capitalism provides worth the amount of poverty it perpetuates? I don't think so.

 

[DarkRyter]

None of these economic systems are true, but they are all permitted.

 

[DoomWyrd]

Everyone is saying that capitalism is flawed or that communism is flawed, but the truth is that any interaction between people will be flawed. Someone will always be at an advantage, and no matter how small it is eventually it will grow to a point where the interaction breaks down.