Why do people scream "Feminist Agenda" when there is a female lead?

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Probably because they're fed up of every tumblr and Escapist user screaming 'Patriarchy!' at shit that's not actually offensive to women.

You know, I keep hearing about this mysterious tumblr Illuminati that apparently has conspiracy theory level power, how they poison ideologically pure places like The Escapist. I hear stuff like that and I can't help but think it's a nothing but a strawman. You see the thing is I see a few people immediately default to complaining about patriarchal society, that's the thing, it's a few people, a loud minority, that doesn't actually have any real impact on the entertainment industry.

The thing I seem to see a lot of is that the people who shout "Feminist Agenda!" are the same kind of minority, just on the other side of the supposed "issue".

This applies to not only some here on The Escapist and tumblr, but it also applies to lots of social media sites too, like Facebook, Twitter, and Reddit.

Now I see a major difference between the two groups: The "feminist" side a is group doesn't really understand feminist philosophy, but still uses it to voice their dissatisfaction. The tend not to do any harm, when they do do harm they more often than not do it to themselves rather than any societal structure. Also large entertainment companies will scapegoat them for an internal decision not to release things in certain markets, like a video game company recently did... Justifying not releasing an installment in a sub-series in the west, because of feminist outrage, instead of the real issue which was consistently declining sales of the sub-series, which was making bringing the games over and getting them certified unprofitable.

The "anti-feminist" side is probably even worse for several reasons. One it's a group that is capable of shutting up those they disagree with, usually via methods of doxxing, harassment, combined with rape and death threats. It's also a group with a large sector that indulges in horrific amounts of shaming people for their body weight and sexual habits, the latter usually within acceptable norms anyways. All of this happens because some women and men identify as feminist and have issues with society, a small section of those who disagree with the feminists decide to engage in absolutely horrible and illegal tactics of threats and stalking.

To put it in TLR summary: The feminists are trying to do their best to invoke positive change, some of them might be a bit misguided, but their hearts are generally in the right place. The "anti-feminists", specifically a loud hateful minority of "anti-feminists", feel threatened that people want social change and equality, so they engage in dirty underhanded and illegal tactics to shut their opposition up.

 

[Luminous_Umbra]

Probably because it most often has less to do with them being a female character and more to do with how the character it pushed or sold on the fact that their gender matters in the first place? I mean, perhaps it is simple misunderstanding why the complaint is there and how it isn't the trait itself in the character, but the attitudes other put forth in response to the trait?

Maybe I am not visiting the right places online, but I have never actually seen the whole "I am mad this character is female because they are female" thing actually occur in the wild. It is always called up like some boogieman strawman though to mock or criticize people, usually with a wide brush so as to get those who call shenanigans about ideological or moral pushes for change or special attention.

Instead, I always see "I don't like that these people want to change this character I have been a fan of for years to another gender because of their ideological beliefs" or "Why do people keep promoting the character's gender when talking about it, why can't they separate the quality overall from that trait?" or "Why do people point to the lack of this gender like it is inherently bad." Sometime I even see "Wait, that character was a female? Why? That doesn't make sense".

Never actually seen a "I don't like the character being this gender because it is a woman". The protests always seem to come from places of more rational complaint rather than the fairly over the top way it is presented here.

Generally the calls of feminism only occur when there is some spotlight on the character's gender being relevant in the first place with regard to wider culture. When you have people making a deal of the gender like it is somehow relevant, especially if choice in the gender being female is being promoted as something morally good, you tend to get people calling that out as pushing an ideology. Be it an appeal to cosmic balance like the total number of protagonist's who share one trait or another is a scale to be set, or simply an argument that using a female character makes something inherently better, if the gender of the character gets promoted as a point of important when it doesn't actually matter, it will get people calling that attitude out. Myself, I think trying to point to a character's gender like it is some freakshow trait is pretty sexist to boot, but that is neither here nor there.

Honestly, the game Undertale nailed how to do that stuff right. Not just a female protagonist, but homosexual relationships, issues of racism and so on. It did it perfectly, by not making a spectacle about how it was doing it and instead just making a quality experience in a game. Not yet seen anyone upset the protagonist was a girl either, or the relationships within it. By not treating it like a freak show to market on, a game where you talk with a spaghetti making skeleton was more mature on those topics than a lot of media I have seen making a big stink about what they were doing.

Pretty sure there is some saying about those who actually do stuff and those who just say they do stuff for the attention that brings them, can't recall at the moment.

It mostly seems to be on Twitter and the like. Which, I'll be honest, I trust tentatively, with how easy it is to make a throw-away account to stir up trouble. I've all too frequently seen fake accounts on all "sides", trying to project bad images of those sides and it's honestly just a massive pain to deal with.

I'll be honest, I'm really not a fan of the trend either. If your work, be it video game, movie, or whatever, is any good, you shouldn't have to rely on advertising the gender, ethnicity, etc. of your characters. Because doing so makes it clear you have nothing better to present.

Also, correction on Undertale, the protag has been stated to be of ambiguous gender and sex for the purposes of individual interpretation. So, you thinking they are female isn't wrong, but it's also not "canon" or whatever you want to call it.

 

[IceForce]

Probably because they're fed up of every tumblr and Escapist user screaming 'Patriarchy!' at shit that's not actually offensive to women.

Are you visiting the same Escapist I visit? Because I don't see any of that here, at all.

And as someone else pointed out, what you've posted here does a rather poor job of answering the question in the thread title.
"People scream 'Feminist Agenda' because they're fed up of other people screaming 'Patriarchy'" ? You know how bad that sounds as an explanation, right?

 

[IceForce]

People with weird pro-censorship, anti-gamers, pro-sexism and pro-discrimination ideas appear to be a vast majority among SJWs/feminists.

Note there that you said "appear to be". You're taking the worst cherry-picked example of something you can find, and tarring everyone else under the same label with the same brush.

Guilt-by-association at its finest.

 

[Cowabungaa]

People are uncomfortable with change. The same happened (happens?) with the 'gay agenda.' This has nothing to do with feminist extremists either.

 

[IceForce]

You will find out that pro-censorship, anti-gamers, pro-sexism and pro-discrimination ideas are a tiny minority among all people.

The problem is that they are loud.

And the second problem is that when someone says something normal, we don't pay excessive attention to it... but when someone says something outrageous, we remember it a lot. Which is why crazy feminazis and such seem to be a lot of people when they aren't.

Yep, hit the nail on the head there.

Hell, when I turn on my TV to see what the Republicans are up to, what do I see? Donald Trump. Donald Trump. Donald Trump. Donald Trump. Donald Trump. Donald Trump. Donald Trump.

Given some of the logic posted in this thread so far, I figure I'd be quite within my rights to claim that ALL Republicans are exactly like Donald Trump, purely because that's all I ever see when I turn on my TV.

As I said in another thread, guilt-by-association either applies everywhere, or it applies nowhere.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

That's like saying that loving animals means you are crazy or evil, because PETA.

Animal rights extremists are a tiny minority among all people who love animals.

People with weird pro-censorship, anti-gamers, pro-sexism and pro-discrimination ideas appear to be a vast majority among SJWs/feminists.

It's a debate that not really ours to wage, is it? Untill sensible people emerge within feminism as an ideology and change its course, this is what it is. That change can only be made internally, not externally. We can only respond to these internal changes after and when they happen.

The thing is you said: "People with weird pro-censorship, anti-gamers, pro-sexism and pro-discrimination ideas appear to be a vast majority among SJWs/feminists." Emphasis mine. What you're doing here is actually using a hypocrisy, because the type of people you're using to tar all of feminism with is a very small minority of feminists. To use your own analogy, the "pro-censorship, anti-gamer, pro-sexism, and pro-discrimination"[footnote]These people are generally called radical feminists, or "radfems", which includes Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists and Sex Worker Exclusionary Radical Feminists(TERFs and SWERFs). Which if we're being completely honest aren't actually feminists, nor are they radical in ideology.[/footnote] types are to feminism what animal rights extremists are to animal lovers.

Now then, saying no sensible people have emerged within feminism? That's rather absurd on the face of it, as most feminists are and have been very sensible people, mostly women, who want gender equality. That particular argument is one I only hear from people who have either never met an actual feminist(as in not a "radfem"), or who flat refuse to even listen to the most basic feminist ideas. It's not like good feminist sources and literature are hard to find either, so it's often a case of people deciding consciously not to take feminism seriously. Which is understandable, but on the same token, misrepresentation based on a tiny toxic minority is also never totally excusable.

 

[Gengisgame]

Probably because they're fed up of every tumblr and Escapist user screaming 'Patriarchy!' at shit that's not actually offensive to women.

You know, I keep hearing about this mysterious tumblr Illuminati that apparently has conspiracy theory level power, how they poison ideologically pure places like The Escapist. I hear stuff like that and I can't help but think it's a nothing but a strawman. You see the thing is I see a few people immediately default to complaining about patriarchal society, that's the thing, it's a few people, a loud minority, that doesn't actually have any real impact on the entertainment industry.

The thing I seem to see a lot of is that the people who shout "Feminist Agenda!" are the same kind of minority, just on the other side of the supposed "issue".

This applies to not only some here on The Escapist and tumblr, but it also applies to lots of social media sites too, like Facebook, Twitter, and Reddit.

Now I see a major difference between the two groups: The "feminist" side a is group doesn't really understand feminist philosophy, but still uses it to voice their dissatisfaction. The tend not to do any harm, when they do do harm they more often than not do it to themselves rather than any societal structure. Also large entertainment companies will scapegoat them for an internal decision not to release things in certain markets, like a video game company recently did... Justifying not releasing an installment in a sub-series in the west, because of feminist outrage, instead of the real issue which was consistently declining sales of the sub-series, which was making bringing the games over and getting them certified unprofitable.

The "anti-feminist" side is probably even worse for several reasons. One it's a group that is capable of shutting up those they disagree with, usually via methods of doxxing, harassment, combined with rape and death threats. It's also a group with a large sector that indulges in horrific amounts of shaming people for their body weight and sexual habits, the latter usually within acceptable norms anyways. All of this happens because some women and men identify as feminist and have issues with society, a small section of those who disagree with the feminists decide to engage in absolutely horrible and illegal tactics of threats and stalking.

To put it in TLR summary: The feminists are trying to do their best to invoke positive change, some of them might be a bit misguided, but their hearts are generally in the right place. The "anti-feminists", specifically a loud hateful minority of "anti-feminists", feel threatened that people want social change and equality, so they engage in dirty underhanded and illegal tactics to shut their opposition up.

Your right the screaming feminist is a strawman but it's a strawman used to deflect criticism, saying you don't believe in killallmen does not mean that your other views will not be torn apart when you try to force them on others.

You say feminists are trying to invoke a positive change but they aren't, feminism has now become a group that exists for the benefit of feminism, if feminism actually cared about societal change for the better then it would be more worried about how hostile it has become to men, probably it's most important but ignored issue within western society.

If you had tried to stay on point and not show extreme bias you wouldn't have invoked your own strawman of the evil anti-feminists who are so much worse than the noble feminists just trying to do good, feminists have done everything you've listed but with the idea that they are morally right in doing so but all that is irrelevant to the point, for now assume that we are just talking about averages members again and try not to deflect criticism with this worn out point.

The TC opens up an attack on anyone who expressed the idea of a feminist agenda in female protagonists, that's because there is, there is not a single mainstream game with a female protagonist being made that doesn't have major publications harping on about how great it that the character is female. If this was just a matter of personnel taste fine, but it isn't, it's female good/ male bad mentality and anyone who doesn't understand how that would rub guys the wrong way shouldn't be talking about social issues if you can't empathize on such a basic level.

 

[Kingjackl]

While I feel like those complaints are often blown out of proportion (see the viral article about Fury Road, which was from the trashiest, most desperate fucking MRA site), I have heard anecdotal evidence of it happening after Star Wars and I think it's a real sign of insecurity. I mean, did those people watch Aliens or Terminator 2? Did they watch Fury Road or the Force Awakens? If they did and didn't think those female characters were awesome badasses, then they need to revoke their man cards at once, because they clearly don't understand good action movies.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Your right the screaming feminist is a strawman but it's a strawman used to deflect criticism, saying you don't believe in killallmen does not mean that your other views will not be torn apart when you try to force them on others.

Never said I'm a feminist, nor that I totally support all of their views and ideas. In fact because I'm trans and very feminine I get attacked all the time for being "stereotypical". Now then things like "killallmen" and "diecisscum" aren't about actual hostility, it's about venting and comical hyperbole. Are there people that think that all men, or/and cisgneder folk should be rounded up, put in concentration camps, and possibly systematically murdered? Yes, but then again there are rabid crazies in every ideology. When it comes to groups like trans folk and feminists, who actually have limited social power, along with the fact that most of whom are reasonable individuals... Well such memes are nothing more than expressions of frustration, because such groups aren't really trying eliminate others.

That's besides the fact that as trans person I get to see first hand the issues feminism has with internationality and how it damages the feminist cause.

You say feminists are trying to invoke a positive change but they aren't, feminism has now become a group that exists for the benefit of feminism, if feminism actually cared about societal change for the better then it would be more worried about how hostile it has become to men, probably it's most important but ignored issue within western society.

Feminists are effecting positive change, in fact feminist organizations are active all over the world, doing things like helping both boys and girls in developing nations with health campaigns. Like providing education and sanitary supplies. Source: We Hunted the Mammoth, because it has lots of external references that back the point up. [http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2015/12/15/sorry-mens-rights-activists-feminists-actually-do-care-about-girls-in-africa/]

The whole feminism has become hostile to men argument has never made any bloody sense, because the history of feminism is one of receiving hostility from men, backed up with false claims of exclusionary behavior. Now some feminist groups are hostile to men, but then some are hostile to trans folk, others to people of color, and so on. I'm not going to deny that feminism has a massive internationality issue, one that causes lots of internal feuding too; however, mainstream feminism isn't hostile to men, it's in fact very inclusive. Most of the time.

If you had tried to stay on point and not show extreme bias you wouldn't have invoked your own strawman of the evil anti-feminists who are so much worse than the noble feminists just trying to do good, feminists have done everything you've listed but with the idea that they are morally right in doing so but all that is irrelevant to the point, for now assume that we are just talking about averages members again and try not to deflect criticism with this worn out point.

Except I didn't call "anti-feminists" evil, I even went so far as to clarify that it's a loud minority of "anti-feminists" who are the ones causing issues. I also didn't hold feminism up as this infallible noble cause either. In fact I mentioned and called out the fact that just like with "anti-feminists", there is a loud minority of feminists who do the exact same thing. The way you've misrepresented me thus far is making a strawman of my statements.

That said I've never seen any rabid type of "anti-feminist", like Dean Esmay, Roosh V, or Paul Elam chased from their homes by a concentrated feminist campaign of doxxing, harassment, stalking, and threats of death and rape. Yet that very thing has happened to a staggering number of feminists, including very reasonable ones. So no calling out the minority of "anti-feminists" who do terrible illegal things to others is not a strawman.

The TC opens up an attack on anyone who expressed the idea of a feminist agenda in female protagonists, that's because there is, there is not a single mainstream game with a female protagonist being made that doesn't have major publications harping on about how great it that the character is female. If this was just a matter of personnel taste fine, but it isn't, it's female good/ male bad mentality and anyone who doesn't understand how that would rub guys the wrong way shouldn't be talking about social issues if you can't empathize on such a basic level.

That is called hype, there are a lot of people who get excited about female leads in video games and movies, because it's fairly uncommon in comparison to male leads.

Now the female good/male bad mentality isn't a majority opinion amongst feminists, it's a fringe minority, mostly composed of people who are actively working against feminist philosophy from within. Most feminists have no problem with men, they have problems with society being geared to advantage men and disadvantage women.

So thus far this has been a series of misrepresenting my stance, which is fairly neutral, as a pro-feminist gush so it can easily be knocked down. That is the very definition of a strawman.

 

[Gengisgame]

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A question to you two.

If you say the majority of feminists are man-hating feminazis, it follows that the majority of women are man-hating feminazis. It also follows that any man who wants equality actually hates his own gender.

It's easy to label feminist as a negative movement, when you claim feminism and equality are not the same thing.

But two sides can play at this game. I see a lot of people who are afraid of equality, and therefore strived (and managed) to associate feminism with a negative term.
Then from now on I will promote the same exact things I am currently promoting as a feminist, BUT I will call myself an equalitarian.
I advise every feminist to do so. I want to see those insecure people try and turn equality into a bad word too.

I feel like you completely missed the obvious point I made, I pointed out that few are the strawmen that people bring up and yet here you are throwing out another strawman.

Well yes, it is easy to say it's a negative movement if it's not about equality.

Here's the point where you waffle on with wordplay and here's the moment where I point out that it would have made FAR more sense for you to have simply given me some decent examples of the current mainstream feminist movement making things better for men and women but you didn't, you did what always happens, you got defensive in the name of feminism and ironically called me insecure, classic attempt at the old tactic of the old you don't agree with my movement so you must be this "insert insult".

I know I am unlikely to change your mind so I am simply defending myself.

 

[IceForce]

What you're doing here is actually using a hypocrisy, because the type of people you're using to tar all of feminism with is a very small minority of feminists.

That sounds like a claim in need of good statistical evidence.

Hold up, YOU were the one who claimed that "pro-censorship, anti-gamers, pro-sexism and pro-discrimination" make up the "vast majority" of feminists. Where's YOUR statistical evidence?

 

[Smooth Operator]

Stupid breeds stupid, when you have people proclaiming heinous patriarchy is oppressing the holy preciousness of womanhood every time someone spots a boos on screen that crap will inspire others to come up with equally moronic shit.

If you want to take a dive with these people go right ahead, but do not expect any part of it to make sense.