Why doesn't the iPod touch get recognition as a handheld gaming console?

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Miles Tormani

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RAKtheUndead said:
To those that have honed their skills on a controller, this can be especially frustrating. Even if a new control schema has certain advantages over an older one, the chances are that we're still going to like the older one better unless the advantages are significant. This is why Sony have kept the general Dual Shock controller arrangement from the mid-1990s, even though the left analogue stick is awkwardly placed, and I'd speculate that this is why Miles Tornami prefers the dual-analogue control schema for first-person shooters, despite the extra precision demonstrated by an optical or laser mouse, although I'll allow him to comment separately on this.
Yes. That is exactly the reason. I grew up playing games with controllers. I even played Doom for PC using a joystick. The first "modern" FPS (that is, one that has a control scheme similar to WASD/mouse, or two-stick) I played was Turok: Dinosaur Hunter on the N64. (Goldeneye doesn't use that particular scheme, so I leave it out.) Speaking of, the first FPS that I seriously got into (neglecting Goldeneye) was Halo.

I've said time and again that I happen to be a fanboy of the series. It wasn't that way at first, but that's how the cookie happened to crumble. This, of course, meant that to keep up with the series, an Xbox was required. The PC ports came too late, and you still need Vista to play Halo 2. It also happened to be cheaper hardware-wise to go the console direction. Besides, why would I switch to the PC as my primary method of gaming now? I've been doing the former for 15 years at least.

As a result, the Xbox controller is what happened to be more comfortable for me, especially in terms of FPS games. It's what I know. It's how I perform well. It's how I can still snipe in various games.

It's also why when I play the PC version of Halo, using a keyboard and mouse, I miss all the time. Seriously. You should see me try to take down Grunts in that game with a mouse. It's pathetic.

The point is, that's how I play my damn games. The only reason I brought it up in the first place, as well as all the other opinions in that paragraph, as I have to keep saying, is to point out that I have opinions that are not very well-received on this forum. The difference is that when other people argue about how they prefer WASD/mouse, I don't tell them that they pulled their reasons out of their ass.

But of course, Migo had to go ahead and challenge every single one of those opinions anyway, tell me all the reasons why I am unconditionally wrong, and start the argument that led to the outright flaming we see above.
 

migo

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RAKtheUndead said:
The video game media, as a rule, tends to be made up of people with experience in video games. This experience usually spans back several years; some of the staff of The Escapist possibly remember the Atari 2600 and such. Therefore, most of their experience is with traditional video game platforms. The idea of iOS devices, multi-purpose devices which happen to have the ability to play games, isn't one that's been heavily explored in the past, and as mainstream developers (as opposed to those few independent developers making games for Windows Mobile and the like) haven't shown the idea much attention in the past, it's difficult to see why they would do so now.
This is true among handhelds but not home systems. I'd be curious to hear from people who were adults around the time of the 2600 at what point were PCs considered valid gaming systems? I don't see the multipurpose application of iOS to be significantly different from the multipurpose application of Windows (possibly DOS might be a better analogy given the weak multitasking support). If I were to argue that my laptop is a home gaming system, thanks to the fact that it plays Portal and Half-Life 2, I wouldn't get any arguments. Hell, a Windows 95 system that plays Final Fantasy 7 and 8 wouldn't get any argument either, even though it's ported from the PS and uses a different control scheme.

Again, there's a reason for this. Most of the developers that have found major success on iOS are indie developers who have made low-budget games which have managed to punch above their weight. However, it's important not to lose sight of the forest for the trees, and recognise that application take-up on the iPhone is notoriously top-heavy. Figures demonstrate that there's a significant drop-off by application #1,000, and an even more significant one after application #5,000 in the sales charts. Therefore, your investment isn't particularly secure on iOS compared to the more traditional platforms of the DS and PSP, and is probably a contributing factor into why applications tend to top out at the $10 level.
What's noteworthy is that these developers are having any success at all, as compared to the PSP, which is flat out losing developers on all sides. iOS is easy to develop for, so the risk is much lower and the return on investment is much higher (due to investment being as low as the risk). It's because as a platform to develop for it's easy enough to put a game out in your spare time while you hold a second job, even full time devs mention that it takes ages to develop for any PlayStation system.

To mainstream developers, this is a bit too much of a craps roll for their liking; there's a reason why certain developers are known as "big-budget". You have suggested Assassin's Creed and The Sims 3 as successful iOS games by mainstream developers, but it's difficult not to suggest in turn that these are really just baby steps for the developers versus the budgets and development times of comparable games in the same franchises as these for the respective developers. GTA: Chinatown Wars is a cross-platform game, developed to cover all bases. The uncharacteristically low-budget approach of these games doesn't mean that they're necessarily low in quality, but it does suggest that the developers aren't confident enough in the platform to really focus on it.
GTA Chinatown Wars is the same across all platforms. If iOS doesn't inspire confidence, then neither does the DS or the PSP. Comparing handhelds to home systems doesn't really make sense here. On the one hand there is logic to that argument, but on the other hand you're not comparing apples to apples, rather like comparing a home racing game with a steering wheel or a home FPS with keyboard and mouse to a handheld.

You've been very supportive of the touchscreen control schemas used by iOS developers, whereas most of the rest of us haven't. I've been thinking about this for a while, and I think I've recognised the most significant reason why we prefer the traditional button-based controller model. We're familiar with it, and even though the touchscreen model demonstrates more flexibility, it's very different to what we're used to, and means that we have to learn an entirely new way of playing games.
Not all that different from moving between keyboard and mouse and a gamepad. How many people dismiss Windows as a gaming platform because it uses a different input method from the PlayStation?

To those that have honed their skills on a controller, this can be especially frustrating. Even if a new control schema has certain advantages over an older one, the chances are that we're still going to like the older one better unless the advantages are significant. This is why Sony have kept the general Dual Shock controller arrangement from the mid-1990s, even though the left analogue stick is awkwardly placed,
I disagree with this completely. How is it that only the left analog stick is awkwardly placed and not the right? The only problem I have with the Xbox 360 controller is the left analog stick placement - and that's because it's different from the dual shock. I'd contend that the DS has stayed the same because there isn't a better layout, and that Microsoft experimented with a different layout with the Xbox just for the sake of being different.

and I'd speculate that this is why Miles Tornami prefers the dual-analogue control schema for first-person shooters, despite the extra precision demonstrated by an optical or laser mouse, although I'll allow him to comment separately on this.
Certainly there's preference and that's one thing, but to hold that up against objective superiority is another. People are perfectly happy to play with objectively inferior control schemes on multiple home consoles, yet they see this as an insurmountable barrier for iOS? The logic doesn't carry. If that were really a valid reason for not seeing iOS as a game platform, then the PlayStation 3 isn't a valid platform for FPS, strategy or fighting games, and really only works for 3rd person over the shoulder adventure games.

New players might be better served with a traditional controller than with a touchscreen as well, even if this makes the leap to touchscreen controls more difficult later on. A controller has one major advantage that the flexibility of either a keyboard-and-mouse or touchscreen layout cannot replicate: The controller lends itself well to consistent controls between games.
While the controls are consistent, this is a major drawback too. Some games just don't lend themselves to certain control schemes, and switching things up helps. Certain PC games will have you change from just mouse, to keyboard and mouse, to just keyboard, to joystick and so on. There's flexibility on the platform even with just the keyboard and mouse and not counting additional peripherals. Switching control schemes to whatever is most appropriate is an advantage of the platform, and the lack of consistency isn't a barrier to entry for anyone - even the most casual of gamers. Speaking of casual gamers, the control difference between PvZ for PC and iOS has no effect on gameplay at all, and you'd expect players of such games to be most susceptible to problems with switching a control scheme.

In any given Xbox 360 FPS, I can be reasonably assured that the right bumper button is for firing, that the A button is for jumping, that other face buttons are for reloading, melee, et cetera. With a keyboard and mouse controller, my favourite for FPS games, I already have a non-standard layout as soon as it comes to crouching. Most games use the left Control key as standard for crouching, while I use the left Shift button, as it's in easier reach of my fingers. Depending on the game, this means at least ten seconds of reconfiguring keys before I can play the game, a problem I don't get with console controllers, and a bigger problem with people who just want to sit down and play the game quickly. With a touchscreen interface, with potentially vastly different control schemas for different games, the problem is compounded.
I would much rather take the 10 seconds to alter the layout than deal with a default scheme, and not all console FPS games are the same either - particularly with some having a button to run and others having the button to walk. Also, in the case of a console FPS, if the interface doesn't suit you, you're screwed and just not going to play them. With iOS and different control schemes you can select the games that do work for you.

As much as you seem to deride mechanical feedback, others wouldn't be so quick to give it up. That knowledge of when a button press will be recognised is very important for certain genres of games, including 3D platform games and fighting games.
You see whether there was feedback based on whether the action you expected happened. If you're typing faster than the computer can keep up because it's doing heavy work in the background or is stalled, it's good to know if what you're typing actually came out, or if you're just typing so fast that you can't correct as you go. Fighting games already have a problem with gamepads anyway, and while platform games are specifically designed for them, even having the same feedback on a keyboard doesn't turn out so well. It's less the feedback and more the appropriate layout. Where having physical buttons really is important is simultaneous presses of adjacent buttons, which iDevice multitouch screens can't handle (making Super Mario unplayable on emulators), but again it's the differentiation and not the feedback that's the difference.

A lot of their gameplay elements are dictated by timing, and that little click gives you more indication on when something should or shouldn't be doing than watching the feedback on the screen. The reaction time of your hands can be faster than that of your eyes, and this knowledge is useful to know when you're playing something that needs rapid response.
Like what games for example? I can't recall anything in Super Mario Bros or World that requires me to put out multiple button presses before an action comes on screen, and it's pretty reliant on fast reactions, and is also not possible to play properly on iOS. It's not the feedback that makes the difference though.

Sure, you can make a control schema that has as few compromises as possible on a touchscreen, but mainstream developers probably find it easier to use the familiar controller as much as players do. Nintendo seems to be the major exception to this, apart from iOS; they've created significantly different controllers for each of their television consoles since the NES, and developed a few new ways of doing things along the way. This hasn't necessarily aided third-party developers, though; look at all of the games badly implementing Wii motion controls. Likewise, there are so many ways to screw up touchscreen controls, partially because of that flexibility of the UI.
Sure, but most games have demos, so if it sucks, you don't play it. I'd rather take the chance of a control scheme sucking or being absolutely brilliant than not have any variation at all. Particularly over multiple generations. We've been using D-Pad and action buttons since the GameBoy in 1989, it's time for something different.

As a result, mainstream developers are going to be a bit wary of working on this nascent platform. They seem to like consistency and predictability; one need only look at how many sequels and franchise spin-offs there seem to be this generation, with few original IPs. Of course, this means a goldrush for the indie developers ready to work on iOS, but remember that goldrushes end with a lot more people disappointed than satisfied.
Sure, they like consistency and predictability, but you seem to be ignoring that mainstream developers are moving towards iOS development in preference to DS and PSP. Sonic 4 is a major mainstream title that I have yet to see announced for any non iOS handheld platform.
 

migo

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Let's do a point by point breakdown of a lot of the points people have brought up.

First, I'll go with the valid one:

Gamers play primarily on the PSP, DS, home consoles or Windows. They look at those platforms for their games, and don't consider looking outside it. Because they don't think to look outside, they don't notice that there's a new player in the handheld game console market.

That's simple enough, no intrinsic reason to look elsewhere, so it's not done.

Now, to all the invalid ones:

#1: Apple doesn't have gaming pedigree.

Sony didn't before the playstation. Microsoft didn't before they had DOS. Every company always has a first entry into the market. Sometimes companies do have a gaming pedigree and don't do well - Atari dominated the market and then died, SNK tried entering into the home console market and didn't make it anywhere. There's no correlation between prior market success and what a company has in new markets, not to mention the fact that companies will branch into new business all the time.

#2: It doesn't have physical buttons, the controls aren't optimal with a touchscreen.

People play with suboptimal controls all the time. People played Diablo on the PlayStation, which sort of works but you're missing key bindings. People play FPS games with a gamepad even though a keyboard and mouse is an objectively superior input method. These comparative differences don't disqualify any other systems from being considered game systems, so the logic simply doesn't follow.

#3: No big game developers are putting their weight behind the platform.

This is just simply untrue and is based on ignorance. iOS has more 3rd party backing from major developers than the Neo Geo or Wonderswan ever had.

#4: Poor battery life.

The iPod touch has better battery life than the PSP, if the iPod touch's battery life means it's not a handheld game console, then neither is the PSP, nor was the Sega Nomad, GameGear, Lynx or any other such battery hog.

#5: It wasn't designed as a game platform.

Windows isn't designed to be a game platform. DOS wasn't designed to be a game platform. Some of the most powerful and influential franchises came from Windows and DOS.

2/3 of the responses are coming from the second category of completely invalid responses - either completely untrue or responses that might on the surface seem reasonable but just aren't logical. All these responses are based on the false idea that the reason it's not a gaming platform is because it really isn't, and they're all attempts to explain why it actually isn't a gaming platform (hence why I'm correcting), rather than an explanation of why it's not considered one.

It's pretty clear that the reason it's not considered a gaming platform is because gamers are ignorant that iOS is a gaming platform - hell that was obvious when I posed the question in the first place. The more substantive reason is that they either never thought to look, or took a quick glance and made a summary judgement.
 

Mozza444

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migo said:
Mozza444 said:
For a Phone that IS a hand held console.. please check out the..


It's the same with any Android phone, except most are touch screen

It has buttons, and also you can download..

GBA
SNES

and many other.. (A PSone emulator is in production)

Emulators for the phone.

Great for a GBA at all times with you.. and did i mention, free games obviously
The keyboard on the Milestone is far from suitable for gaming. I haven't played on it specifically, but I've used the E62 which has a reasonably similar physical keyboard. It's no benefit for emulators.

I've got GBA and SNES emulators running on my iPod touch. Chrono Trigger works just fine. Sonic is about the same as iOS native version. Super Mario World doesn't work since you can't carry a shell, run and jump, but that's far from a good suggestion. If you're going to emulate those systems, the Milestone has no edge on iOS devices, and the DS, PSP, GP2X and Dingoo A320 are better options thanks to having identical controls to the original device, although I'm going to have to give SFII a shot and see how it goes in the SNES and GBA emulators, since the D-Pad is rather crappy for it.
There you go.



Plus it does not have to be "jailbroken" to have such an app.

I believe this does give it a giant advantage over iOS?
Since iOS can't legally have the software.
 

migo

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RAKtheUndead said:
I wasn't around for it, but I think it was about 1984, with the Commodore 64 and the development of Elite for the BBC Micro. By that time, microcomputers had been extant for more than a decade; the first microcomputer appears to have been developed in 1972. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micral]

Of course, this came just in the wake of the 1983 video game crash, which probably made home computers the only commercially successful platform for games at the time, because people were wary then of buying a single-purpose gaming device in a way that they aren't now.
That makes sense.

migo said:
This is the internet. Of course you're going to get arguments about the legitimacy of the PC as a gaming platform. This is a contributing factor into why PC gamers often get so elitist about their platform of choice.
Sure, you'll have some people argue, but they won't get far. Hell, back in 1998 you could get a PC that could emulate both the PlayStation and the N64 which were the current consoles at the time. It's not quite the same now where you really have to do ports rather than just emulating, but a PC could literally play everything.

So, have they worked multiplayer into the iOS version of GTA: Chinatown Wars yet?
No, apparently not, but there are a number of differences across platforms with the DS not having access to the radio stations the PSP and iOS get.


That aside, I've looked at the prices of the iOS version of Chinatown Wars versus the PSP and DS versions. The price of the iOS version is ?8.99, and the prices of the DS and PSP versions are £14.99, which I'll round up to ?18 - and that's at a reduced price. The lower price for the iOS version is better for the gamers, but worse for the developers - logistical concerns of putting the game onto physical media and transporting it to game stores aside, I'd say that they'd much rather be pricing their games at the higher price.
If the price is lower, particularly at sub $10 point, gamers are more likely to buy which means there will be more sales. Revenue is # of sales X cost. iOS games can sell much higher than PSP games will, showing a higher attach rate and a higher potential revenue.

The substantially lower price tag for the iOS version demonstrates to me that Rockstar can't price their games higher on iOS for fear of a commercial backlash, and the costs of developing for iOS can't be that much lower for games in that vein to be developed solely for iOS. Thus, the cross-platform development of GTA: Chinatown Wars is important, and could be argued as a point against iOS standing on its own feet as a serious games platform as it currently stands.
Again, Sonic 4 is only on iOS among handhelds, so that doesn't make sense.

Anyway, I'd certainly like game prices to be lower myself, but given that if you were to lose your iPod Touch, you'd have to go through the whole rigmarole of downloading all of your software again, I'd pay the extra ?20 or so to avoid the disadvantages of digital distribution.
If you lose your game you have to go buy it again, and if you're carrying the physical media along with your DS or PSP when you lose it you've got the cost doubled. I'd rather spend the time redownloading (which isn't that much), than having to pay for it again.

You'd be surprised.
I doubt it, I don't see any discussion of Windows not being a gaming platform anywhere here.

You'd be in the minority with that view. In most modern console games, the left analogue stick is more important than the D-Pad, because it allows for analogue control of movement in the horizontal plane.
Placing it lower doesn't mean it's less important, it just means that it's better placed for ergonomics.

Conversely, the face buttons are more important in a lot of default control schemas than the right analogue stick, and even in FPS games and the like, the face buttons contain actions that it's necessary to get to quickly.
Face button and D-Pad placement on the DS is fine for the type of finger movements you need to do. Left analog placement on the Xbox 360 controller is poor for the movements you need to do to make the best use of the input method.

Considering that the GameCube, released before the original Xbox,
GameCube and Xbox were released a week apart.

also used an asymmetrical left analogue stick position, and that the Nintendo 64's analogue stick dominated the controller layout, it doesn't stand to reason that Microsoft were the ones that were experimenting. Hell, the Dual Shock 2 and 3 don't even have proper trigger buttons; yes, they have analogue rear bumpers, but they don't have the differentiation characteristics of an Xbox 360 or GameCube pad.
Trigger buttons are separate from analog stick placement. The N64 analog stick placement was pretty damn awkward, and the GameCube analog stick placement only moderately improves on it.


migo said:
The PlayStation 3 isn't a particularly valid platform for strategy games. This much has been established, and the cross-platform development of strategy games has arguably damaged gameplay for the PC ports of the games.
Civilization Revolution does all right. It's better than nothing, but also doesn't impact on the development of Civ 4 and 5.

On the other hand, FPS games on PC don't get all that harmed by cross-platform development, apart from the obvious case of Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2.
It's not a matter of harm, it's that the only reason you'd play an FPS without keyboard and mouse is because it's disallowed by the software.


migo said:
Probably because there are few complex gameplay elements in that game that would make switching the control scheme have much effect.
It's just another tower defense game.

migo said:
You would rather take the ten seconds, as would I on a PC game, but not everybody would. That ten second delay, at best, is just cutting into time that these people could be gaming with.
It's a first time issue, you're not re-setting it every time, and is well worth the time spent.

migo said:
I find that tends to be more of a consequence of the controller than the button layout. With only a few minor control changes, I could shift as an inexperienced Xbox 360 player from Modern Warfare 2 to Halo 3 within minutes. This was considerably more difficult when I shifted from using the arrow keys from the days of Doom to the WASD layout which started to propagate around the time of Half-Life, and I had a lot more experience with the PC at that stage.
WASD was a superior input method, and was worth the time to learn it, particularly since Doom didn't make use of vertical movement.

migo said:
Which is still a lot easier for me when I've got some feedback to go with the visual effects.
The feedback isn't reliable. You can have physical feedback telling you something should have happened while visually you see nothing happened.


migo said:
Super Mario 64 DS, Super Mario Galaxy - prime examples of where feedback is important to me. I'm specifically talking about some of the platform parts where two platforms are rotating or moving in different directions; the feedback helps me differentiate the delay between the button being pressed and the action being done. The time difference is almost negligible, in most cases, but still significant enough to make the difference when I'm playing.
Dizzypad is a game specifically around this gameplay element, and does just fine without any physical feedback.

migo said:
Unlike you, I think that we've been doing it that way for a reason. Ever heard the phrase, "If it's not broken, don't fix it"? That's what I think applies here.
If that were the case we would have never gone from the Atari 2600 joystick to the D-Pad on the NES, or had the analog stick added for the N64, or added the mouse to PC input. Certain input methods are suited to certain games only, and new input methods allow for new games.
 

migo

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Mozza444 said:
migo said:
Mozza444 said:
For a Phone that IS a hand held console.. please check out the..


It's the same with any Android phone, except most are touch screen

It has buttons, and also you can download..

GBA
SNES

and many other.. (A PSone emulator is in production)

Emulators for the phone.

Great for a GBA at all times with you.. and did i mention, free games obviously
The keyboard on the Milestone is far from suitable for gaming. I haven't played on it specifically, but I've used the E62 which has a reasonably similar physical keyboard. It's no benefit for emulators.

I've got GBA and SNES emulators running on my iPod touch. Chrono Trigger works just fine. Sonic is about the same as iOS native version. Super Mario World doesn't work since you can't carry a shell, run and jump, but that's far from a good suggestion. If you're going to emulate those systems, the Milestone has no edge on iOS devices, and the DS, PSP, GP2X and Dingoo A320 are better options thanks to having identical controls to the original device, although I'm going to have to give SFII a shot and see how it goes in the SNES and GBA emulators, since the D-Pad is rather crappy for it.
There you go.



Plus it does not have to be "jailbroken" to have such an app.

I believe this does give it a giant advantage over iOS?
Since iOS can't legally have the software.
There's a similar device being made for iOS devices, and it's not illegal to jailbreak, it just has the potential of voiding your warranty. A control add-on like that for the Milestone is also quite clunky and takes away from the portability of a device.
 

Mozza444

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migo said:
There's a similar device being made for iOS devices, and it's not illegal to jailbreak, it just has the potential of voiding your warranty. A control add-on like that for the Milestone is also quite clunky and takes away from the portability of a device.
This Phone is out now, so is the newer Milestone X.
You can download the app from the market, no fuss just £4.

You can't say iOS devices can do that too.. when they need to be hacked. That is the whole point in hacking, to make a device do what it preciously COULD NOT.

Plus it's made from rubber and is hardly "clunky"
You don't NEED it and its relativity small, that's like saying headphones take away portability from a phone.
 

migo

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Given how trivially easy jailbreaking is, you certainly can. Saying you have to jailbreak for iOS is just as stupid as saying that Mass Effect is an Xbox 360 exclusive because it's a console exclusive.
 

Danpascooch

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migo said:
Now, to all the invalid ones:
#1: Apple doesn't have gaming pedigree.

Sony didn't before the playstation. Microsoft didn't before they had DOS. Every company always has a first entry into the market. Sometimes companies do have a gaming pedigree and don't do well - Atari dominated the market and then died, SNK tried entering into the home console market and didn't make it anywhere. There's no correlation between prior market success and what a company has in new markets, not to mention the fact that companies will branch into new business all the time.
Yes, it's true that nothing no company is successful until they do something that is successful.....duh.

The difference is that 3 years after launch, the Playstation One was kicking ass, and the Itouch is not (in terms of gaming)

Apple also has the Pippin in their closet

migo said:
#2: It doesn't have physical buttons, the controls aren't optimal with a touchscreen.

People play with suboptimal controls all the time. People played Diablo on the PlayStation, which sort of works but you're missing key bindings. People play FPS games with a gamepad even though a keyboard and mouse is an objectively superior input method. These comparative differences don't disqualify any other systems from being considered game systems, so the logic simply doesn't follow.
This is completely valid, there is no SINGLE reason the Itouch isn't taken seriously, there are many small reasons, and they all add up and together make it a poor console, yes, some things succeed with poor controls, but it's a detriment, and if you add up all the little detriments, they can really screw something up, much in the way that if you say "it's only $1" 100 times, you just lost $100.

migo said:
#3: No big game developers are putting their weight behind the platform.

This is just simply untrue and is based on ignorance. iOS has more 3rd party backing from major developers than the Neo Geo or Wonderswan ever had.
Are you really arguing that the Itouch is better than the Neo and Wonderswan? You realize that isn't a respectable benchmark right? You might as well say: "The arguements that the Itouch is a bad gaming console are not true, after all, it doesn't smell as bad as literal human shit"

Yes, it's true, but no, it doesn't really matter, you're comparing it to something so bad, that of course it's better. That doesn't make it good.

migo said:
#4: Poor battery life.

The iPod touch has better battery life than the PSP, if the iPod touch's battery life means it's not a handheld game console, then neither is the PSP, nor was the Sega Nomad, GameGear, Lynx or any other such battery hog.
As for the PSP, that's simply not true, the PSP has better battery life.

You continue to compare the itouch to the worst in the "consoles nobody has ever heard of" category, if that is what you mean by "recognition" than congratulations, you win, the itouch is much better than the virtual boy, the Apple Pippin, and a hundred others, but if you mean to hold it to the standard of PSP and Gameboy, it fails, hard, because all the little reasons pile up and become one giant reason to NOT use the itouch as a primary portable gaming system.

migo said:
#5: It wasn't designed as a game platform.

Windows isn't designed to be a game platform. DOS wasn't designed to be a game platform. Some of the most powerful and influential franchises came from Windows and DOS.
I'm not sure whether to count this or not, if it's valid, it's an utterly tiny reason, but still, you throw all the tiny things into a pot, and you get something substantial.
 

Danpascooch

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migo said:
Mozza444 said:
migo said:
Mozza444 said:
For a Phone that IS a hand held console.. please check out the..


It's the same with any Android phone, except most are touch screen

It has buttons, and also you can download..

GBA
SNES

and many other.. (A PSone emulator is in production)

Emulators for the phone.

Great for a GBA at all times with you.. and did i mention, free games obviously
The keyboard on the Milestone is far from suitable for gaming. I haven't played on it specifically, but I've used the E62 which has a reasonably similar physical keyboard. It's no benefit for emulators.

I've got GBA and SNES emulators running on my iPod touch. Chrono Trigger works just fine. Sonic is about the same as iOS native version. Super Mario World doesn't work since you can't carry a shell, run and jump, but that's far from a good suggestion. If you're going to emulate those systems, the Milestone has no edge on iOS devices, and the DS, PSP, GP2X and Dingoo A320 are better options thanks to having identical controls to the original device, although I'm going to have to give SFII a shot and see how it goes in the SNES and GBA emulators, since the D-Pad is rather crappy for it.
There you go.



Plus it does not have to be "jailbroken" to have such an app.

I believe this does give it a giant advantage over iOS?
Since iOS can't legally have the software.
There's a similar device being made for iOS devices, and it's not illegal to jailbreak, it just has the potential of voiding your warranty. A control add-on like that for the Milestone is also quite clunky and takes away from the portability of a device.
I use the Droid Incredible for gaming, it has emulators that you can get without voiding your warranty and opening your phone to all sorts of problems through jailbreaking.

Also, I wouldn't even credit the Itouch for anything you can do with it after jailbreaking, since that's specifically forbidden by Apple, it's not really a feature of the itouch itself, but something some clever person made.
 

Danpascooch

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migo said:
Given how trivially easy jailbreaking is, you certainly can. Saying you have to jailbreak for iOS is just as stupid as saying that Mass Effect is an Xbox 360 exclusive because it's a console exclusive.
If you jailbrake your itouch, you're no longer really using an itouch, since it is not meant to be jailbroken.

The droid can do the same stuff, WITHOUT hacking it, so it's better.

Oh, and you can download new roms FROM THE PHONE ITSELF.

It's so much more open than the itouch it's ridiculous, I don't have Apple standing behind me telling me I'm not allowed to do this and that.
 

migo

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danpascooch said:
Yes, it's true that nothing no company is successful until they do something that is successful.....duh.

The difference is that 3 years after launch, the Playstation One was kicking ass, and the Itouch is not (in terms of gaming)
It absolutely is, it's getting premier titles before the PSP and DS (or that they're simply not getting at all), games are selling way better for iOS than for the PSP and DS as well, and Apple is the first company ever to give Nintendo any concern in the handheld market.



This is completely valid, there is no SINGLE reason the Itouch isn't taken seriously, there are many small reasons, and they all add up and together make it a poor console, yes, some things succeed with poor controls, but it's a detriment, and if you add up all the little detriments, they can really screw something up, much in the way that if you say "it's only $1" 100 times, you just lost $100.
I disagree, you can say the same about the PSP, and it's not just little things. UMD is a huuuge piece of shit, and compounds in multiple ways to make the PSP a downright inadequate handheld gaming console, and you can't even make every small drawback on iOS devices add up to that single failure of UMD.

Are you really arguing that the Itouch is better than the Neo and Wonderswan? You realize that isn't a respectable benchmark right?
Neo Geo and Wonderswan were considered game consoles, if their small 3rd party backing doesn't disqualify them, then iOS' massive 3rd party backing certainly doesn't. It's simply about applying the pseudo logic to another system. Every argument people bring up against iOS can be made about multiple other consoles meaning there pretty much isn't any game console at all.

As for the PSP, that's simply not true, the PSP has better battery life.
You must have been dropped on your head as a kid, 3 hours isn't better battery life than 6 hours.

You continue to compare the itouch to the worst in the "consoles nobody has ever heard of" category, if that is what you mean by "recognition" than congratulations, you win, the itouch is much better than the virtual boy, the Apple Pippin, and a hundred others, but if you mean to hold it to the standard of PSP and Gameboy, it fails, hard, because all the little reasons pile up and become one giant reason to NOT use the itouch as a primary portable gaming system.
No, the one giant reason not to use the PSP as a gaming system is UMD, and it has a bunch of little reasons on top of that. Half the reasons people bring up about the iPod touch aren't even true, so they don't compound at all (except for compounded ignorance).

I'm not sure whether to count this or not, if it's valid, it's an utterly tiny reason, but still, you throw all the tiny things into a pot, and you get something substantial.
It's not a reason at all. It's just a stupid argument - it doesn't matter whether it was intended to be a game system.
 

migo

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danpascooch said:
migo said:
Given how trivially easy jailbreaking is, you certainly can. Saying you have to jailbreak for iOS is just as stupid as saying that Mass Effect is an Xbox 360 exclusive because it's a console exclusive.
If you jailbrake your itouch, you're no longer really using an itouch, since it is not meant to be jailbroken.

The droid can do the same stuff, WITHOUT hacking it, so it's better.

Oh, and you can download new roms FROM THE PHONE ITSELF.

It's so much more open than the itouch it's ridiculous, I don't have Apple standing behind me telling me I'm not allowed to do this and that.
Android is hardly open, Cyanogen received C&D letters from Google, and you have to root most android devices, not counting the N1 and ADP1/2, to be able to get full functionality out of them. Rooting/jailbreaking, same shit. It's an invalid argument, and just as stupid as the "it wasn't designed as a game system" one. It's like saying because you have to put a GPU into a PC that it's not a gaming system because it was meant to be used with Intel's Integrated Graphics.
 

Danpascooch

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migo said:
danpascooch said:
Yes, it's true that nothing no company is successful until they do something that is successful.....duh.

The difference is that 3 years after launch, the Playstation One was kicking ass, and the Itouch is not (in terms of gaming)
It absolutely is, it's getting premier titles before the PSP and DS (or that they're simply not getting at all), games are selling way better for iOS than for the PSP and DS as well, and Apple is the first company ever to give Nintendo any concern in the handheld market.
First of all, I don't know hat "Premier Titles" you're talking about, care to give examples?

Secondly, the fact that it's selling more games first of all is probably not true (Link please) and even if it is, that really doesn't mean anything, since many of the itouch games are like $1, of course more of them would sell if they were 35 times cheaper, it doesn't mean it's more successful, or that it makes more money as a gaming system.

migo said:
This is completely valid, there is no SINGLE reason the Itouch isn't taken seriously, there are many small reasons, and they all add up and together make it a poor console, yes, some things succeed with poor controls, but it's a detriment, and if you add up all the little detriments, they can really screw something up, much in the way that if you say "it's only $1" 100 times, you just lost $100.
I disagree, you can say the same about the PSP, and it's not just little things. UMD is a huuuge piece of shit, and compounds in multiple ways to make the PSP a downright inadequate handheld gaming console, and you can't even make every small drawback on iOS devices add up to that single failure of UMD.
That's right, you can say the same thing about the PSP, but there are less problems (I don't think UMD is bad at all) and have you noticed the state of the PSP lately? The PSPGO was like a desperate last ditch effort to save the PSP
migo said:
Are you really arguing that the Itouch is better than the Neo and Wonderswan? You realize that isn't a respectable benchmark right?
Neo Geo and Wonderswan were considered game consoles, if their small 3rd party backing doesn't disqualify them, then iOS' massive 3rd party backing certainly doesn't. It's simply about applying the pseudo logic to another system. Every argument people bring up against iOS can be made about multiple other consoles meaning there pretty much isn't any game console at all.
Don't go changing the rules in the middle of the game, of course the itouch is a gaming console, all anyone has been saying is that it's not taken seriously, and it's not very good, if you mean "recognition" in the sense of literal *point* "That plays games" than of course it's a gaming console.

migo said:
As for the PSP, that's simply not true, the PSP has better battery life.
You must have been dropped on your head as a kid, 3 hours isn't better battery life than 6 hours.
That was pretty fucking rude.

Link or you're full of shit.

Oh wait, I do have links:

The PSP includes an 1800 mAh battery (1200 mAh on the 2000 and 3000 models) that will provide about 4?6 hours of gameplay, 4?5 hours of video playback, or 8?11 hours of audio playback.[28][128] Official accessories for the console include the AC adapter, car adapter, headset, headphones with remote control, extended-life 2200 mAh battery, battery charger, carrying case, accessories pouch and cleaning cloth, and system pouch and wrist strap.[129]

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psp)

Power Lithium-ion battery
1st generation: Video - 5 hours

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itouch)

5 hours is not necessarily shorter than 5 hours, and that is before ios4 came out and completely TRASHED the itouch's battery (http://sustworks.blogspot.com/2010/06/ios4-vs-ipod-touch-battery-life.html)

With ios4, the PSP wins on battery life, plus the PSP battery can be upgraded.

For someone so rabidly arguing for the itouch, I seem to know more about it than you, perhaps if you got dropped on your head, you'd know how to backup your arguments with RESEARCH like I do.

migo said:
You continue to compare the itouch to the worst in the "consoles nobody has ever heard of" category, if that is what you mean by "recognition" than congratulations, you win, the itouch is much better than the virtual boy, the Apple Pippin, and a hundred others, but if you mean to hold it to the standard of PSP and Gameboy, it fails, hard, because all the little reasons pile up and become one giant reason to NOT use the itouch as a primary portable gaming system.
No, the one giant reason not to use the PSP as a gaming system is UMD, and it has a bunch of little reasons on top of that. Half the reasons people bring up about the iPod touch aren't even true, so they don't compound at all (except for compounded ignorance).
We can't have a debate if you make broad statements with no examples, there is no way to confirm or deny them since you provided absolutely no evidence for that claim.
migo said:
I'm not sure whether to count this or not, if it's valid, it's an utterly tiny reason, but still, you throw all the tiny things into a pot, and you get something substantial.
It's not a reason at all. It's just a stupid argument - it doesn't matter whether it was intended to be a game system.
I'll give you that, it's true, it doesn't matter, if it's good it's good, if it's not it's not, who cares what it was intended to be.
 

Danpascooch

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migo said:
danpascooch said:
migo said:
Given how trivially easy jailbreaking is, you certainly can. Saying you have to jailbreak for iOS is just as stupid as saying that Mass Effect is an Xbox 360 exclusive because it's a console exclusive.
If you jailbrake your itouch, you're no longer really using an itouch, since it is not meant to be jailbroken.

The droid can do the same stuff, WITHOUT hacking it, so it's better.

Oh, and you can download new roms FROM THE PHONE ITSELF.

It's so much more open than the itouch it's ridiculous, I don't have Apple standing behind me telling me I'm not allowed to do this and that.
Android is hardly open, Cyanogen received C&D letters from Google, and you have to root most android devices, not counting the N1 and ADP1/2, to be able to get full functionality out of them. Rooting/jailbreaking, same shit. It's an invalid argument, and just as stupid as the "it wasn't designed as a game system" one. It's like saying because you have to put a GPU into a PC that it's not a gaming system because it was meant to be used with Intel's Integrated Graphics.
I am playing a gameboy advance game right now on my Droid incredible without rooting anything, to do that on an itouch you would have to jailbrake, and I could care less what letters Google sent or received, who gives a shit? As long as it doesn't change the device, it's completely irrelevant.
 

Danpascooch

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migo said:
danpascooch said:
migo said:
Given how trivially easy jailbreaking is, you certainly can. Saying you have to jailbreak for iOS is just as stupid as saying that Mass Effect is an Xbox 360 exclusive because it's a console exclusive.
If you jailbrake your itouch, you're no longer really using an itouch, since it is not meant to be jailbroken.

The droid can do the same stuff, WITHOUT hacking it, so it's better.

Oh, and you can download new roms FROM THE PHONE ITSELF.

It's so much more open than the itouch it's ridiculous, I don't have Apple standing behind me telling me I'm not allowed to do this and that.
Android is hardly open, Cyanogen received C&D letters from Google, and you have to root most android devices, not counting the N1 and ADP1/2, to be able to get full functionality out of them. Rooting/jailbreaking, same shit. It's an invalid argument, and just as stupid as the "it wasn't designed as a game system" one. It's like saying because you have to put a GPU into a PC that it's not a gaming system because it was meant to be used with Intel's Integrated Graphics.
The Android is hardly open? Funny, because I can browse the file directories, download any file extension type from the internet using the 3G network, play GBA roms, AND get things from the app store that didn't require preapproval like the Apple Appstore does, ALL WITHOUT ROOTING IT. All things you can NOT do without jailbreaking an itouch.

Sounds pretty fucking open to me.
 

^=ash=^

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Considering you're not a fanboy, you're trying very hard to defend this point.

OT: I don't see it as a gaming platform because it just doesn't feel like one. The real handheld platforms are all intended for gaming, that is their original purpose. The iTouch is primarily a music player, that's what it is. For example my laptop can play music, but it's not a stereo.
 

migo

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danpascooch said:
First of all, I don't know hat "Premier Titles" you're talking about, care to give examples?
I already did, several times. Learn to read.

Secondly, the fact that it's selling more games first of all is probably not true (Link please) and even if it is, that really doesn't mean anything, since many of the itouch games are like $1, of course more of them would sell if they were 35 times cheaper, it doesn't mean it's more successful, or that it makes more money as a gaming system.
Again, learn to read, I already provided the info.

That's right, you can say the same thing about the PSP, but there are less problems (I don't think UMD is bad at all) and have you noticed the state of the PSP lately? The PSPGO was like a desperate last ditch effort to save the PSP
UMD was horrible. Everybody who saw it the day it was announced knew it was a bad idea, and it turned out to be the case for more reasons than anyone predicted.

Don't go changing the rules in the middle of the game, of course the itouch is a gaming console,
I'm not changing the rules in the middle, you should read the thread from the start and see all the posts of people saying it isn't one.

all anyone has been saying is that it's not taken seriously, and it's not very good, if you mean "recognition" in the sense of literal *point* "That plays games" than of course it's a gaming console.
Screw it, I'm not going to bother responding to you anymore until you go back and at least read the first two pages to see what people actually have been saying, then edit your post to take out everything you now realise is incorrect.
 

migo

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^=ash=^ said:
Considering you're not a fanboy, you're trying very hard to defend this point.
I said I wasn't an Apple fanboy (just as I'm not a Sony or Nintendo fanboy, I'll admit to Microsoft though) - that's quite different from being fond of a particular product.