Why I fight for Caesar's Legion in Fallout
- Thread starter MajorTomServo
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I really wanted to dig the NCR after I came to the conclusion that the Legion was a bit too fascist for my liking. However, it took me some more hours of interaction with the foot soldiers and some more questing until I realized that the NCR isn't anywhere near as patriotic as I'd have wanted them to be. To be honest, after I interviewed everyone at that forsaken airport, I had severe flashbacks to Communist Russia.NeutralDrow said:
That's not where I want California to go. Democratic my ass, it was communism and false promises all the way.
It was all just very sad and very unsavoury. The Khans I wanted to kill on sight, but there turned out to be alternative option I much preferred once I sat down to find it. Brotherhood of Steel - not quite enough of them, and this was probably the first Fallout title where I just could not be arsed to figure out how to get a Power Armour. Sure, I liked the 'genuine flavour' humour and all, but compared to all the loathsome people there just wasn't enough of it.
I remember my breaking point quite vividly, and I'm glad I - quite accidentally - learned about the Followers of the Apocalypse still being at it. After that very specific point in game time, I shot just about every uniformed individual on sight, and everything that did not respawn indefinitely got wiped out with a vengeance.
Yes, I used lots and lots of ammo. It was total carnage. I pretty much built another dam on that damn Hoover Dam, with perforated dead bodies. I felt like Nemesis the Warlock.
Yeah, I just played as an antagonistic, angry anarchist who played both sides against each other. Both were shitty, imo.Magic Muffin Man said:
I haven't reached that point quite yet. Probably won't on any of my current characters. My good-natured characters aren't especially politically-minded and still have the outlet of escaping into the wilderness and depopulating the local irradiated wildlife (one as a survivalist, one as a sniper), and my third is too busy winning all the money in New Vegas and building her personal army for shits'n'giggles. Even my first character, who still wears the sheriffs outfit from that first large town (mainly for what it implies about his morality), hasn't flipped out and killed anyone except the entire Legion fort and Mr. House.Headdrivehardscrew said:
I know what the feeling is like, though. Got it in Skyrim on my first character, especially once I reached Markarth, aka the City of 90% Utter Bastards. The killing spree didn't go so well; I was astonished how many of the people there were essential NPCs.
...wait, airport? You mean the Boomers? Yeah, they kinda freaked me out, too, but I think the NCR doesn't actually mind if you wipe them out.
I just can't agree with you, OP. Yes, civilization has to start from the bottom up, but does that justify Caesar's copying of a civilization that's known as much for its legal system as for its barbarism and overall decadence? I don't really adhere to the idea that slavery is "necessary" in any shape or form, not when paid labour can do the exact same thing. If you can't pay with currency, then pay with food or lodging or decent living conditions - but offer at least *some* kind of recompense.MajorTomServo said:
And honestly, you're okay with a group of misogynists and glorified marauders who rape, pillage, crucify and decapitate opposition in their wake?
That's why I have some respect for the NCR. It might be corrupt, it might be two-faced, but it's a system that's conceived from the ground up in order to be democratic. With some work, it might even be possible for it to actually *be* democratic.
I never could side with House, largely because while I respect the person he's a send-off of (Howard Hughes), he really is past his prime. I was worried that working through Securitrons and the other Families in the Strip would disconnect him from the actual fragility of his position. If he makes a mistake, in any shape or form, it's all on him and he won't be able to face the consequences. He likes to project an air of control and almost machine-like infallibility, but he's still pretty damned fallible.
Plus, if you consider what physical state he's in - he's past his prime, and that's an understatement. Unplugging him felt more like a mercy killing to me. It also felt justified, seeing as the initially fearsome Benny proved to be just some suit-wearing toady House directed around like he directs everyone he meets. I wasn't a fan of being considered like a tool to be used.
As for Yes Man, that's basically the route any self-serving characters could take. It doesn't seem to be an altogether negative option, but it doesn't promise a lot of growth or change in the Mojave. All it really does is end with you in power.
Funny reading people's justifications for joining certain factions. I joined Caesar's Legion cos I was sick of playing the good guy like in other games and wanted to fuck things up psycho style. Ended up going with Yes Man in the end anyway, though.
The NCR presented themselves to me by just minding their own business, and at least having good intentions towards an isolated community in trouble. They did help them out once I buttered up the deal for them. They're reasonable.
The Caesar's Legion presented themselves to me by burning an entire town down and crucifying people just 'cuz they thought they were "degenerate". And then telling me to spread the word, like a paperboy or something.
Yeah, I honestly prefer the NCR, they're not exactly good guys, but they're not cruel brutes for the sake of it. And honestly, the NCR tries to be something better. It doesn't succeed in everything, but at least it tries to be a functional, democratic nation, rebuilding and redeveloping the world. It might not be very fun for Pete McDusteater when they take over his community without asking and make him pay taxes, but on the other hand, they are the ones who can produce things, like power and water.
And above all, what is the Legion going to do once they've run out of neighbouring factions to destroy? Build an armada and sail to china? Their society seems unlikely to progress any further than beating people weaker than them up, once they're out of things to take by force, they'll have nothing left.
The Legion -is- a very interesting faction, but I pretty much file them together with the Fiends and other Wasteland trash in my mind. Usually ending up in the sight of my hunting rifle. Aligning myself with the Legion would be a bit like aligning myself with the Cazadores or something.
EDIT: When I think of it, Sneering Imperialist is probably the best way to describe how I usually play in games like this. Anything that seems reasonably orderly and developing got my support. Like a rather mild fascist.
The Caesar's Legion presented themselves to me by burning an entire town down and crucifying people just 'cuz they thought they were "degenerate". And then telling me to spread the word, like a paperboy or something.
Yeah, I honestly prefer the NCR, they're not exactly good guys, but they're not cruel brutes for the sake of it. And honestly, the NCR tries to be something better. It doesn't succeed in everything, but at least it tries to be a functional, democratic nation, rebuilding and redeveloping the world. It might not be very fun for Pete McDusteater when they take over his community without asking and make him pay taxes, but on the other hand, they are the ones who can produce things, like power and water.
And above all, what is the Legion going to do once they've run out of neighbouring factions to destroy? Build an armada and sail to china? Their society seems unlikely to progress any further than beating people weaker than them up, once they're out of things to take by force, they'll have nothing left.
The Legion -is- a very interesting faction, but I pretty much file them together with the Fiends and other Wasteland trash in my mind. Usually ending up in the sight of my hunting rifle. Aligning myself with the Legion would be a bit like aligning myself with the Cazadores or something.
EDIT: When I think of it, Sneering Imperialist is probably the best way to describe how I usually play in games like this. Anything that seems reasonably orderly and developing got my support. Like a rather mild fascist.
i sided with the legion because i wanted to experience that side of the story. and i really dont see how you can see the legion as good guys just because their territory is "safer", it may be safer than the mojave is during NV because they, and the ncr are FIGHTING over it.
also you really think that the bittersprings massacre is really enough justification to side with the legion? do boone's side missions and you'll learn all about who was responsible for bittersprings.
and even if the ncr did decide to completely eradicate this one tribe WHO ARE NOTORIOUS RAIDERS BTW, thats not enough for me to side with the legion, no matter how "safe" their territory is.
to quote good ol' Ben Franklin, "those who would sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither."
also you really think that the bittersprings massacre is really enough justification to side with the legion? do boone's side missions and you'll learn all about who was responsible for bittersprings.
and even if the ncr did decide to completely eradicate this one tribe WHO ARE NOTORIOUS RAIDERS BTW, thats not enough for me to side with the legion, no matter how "safe" their territory is.
to quote good ol' Ben Franklin, "those who would sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither."
Rapists, murderers and slavers. They may have other decent methods, but those three facts mean that I could never side with them without role-playing a very bad character.
NCR is the best for the wasteland if you go by the endings (and make the right choices). It's the only one where you can have all of the factions except Caesar's Legion and House all united and living in peace. The only sacrifice made really is the freedom you'd get from the 'Independent' option.
NCR is the best for the wasteland if you go by the endings (and make the right choices). It's the only one where you can have all of the factions except Caesar's Legion and House all united and living in peace. The only sacrifice made really is the freedom you'd get from the 'Independent' option.
I'll go with what the supermutant Marcus has to say when asked about the Legion.
"The Legion follows Caesar, not Caesar's Ideals. When Caesar dies the Legion will fall apart. Might not happen overnight. Might take a few decades. But it'll happen. Basic human nature - greed, ambition, jealousy - will see to it."- Marcus
"The Legion follows Caesar, not Caesar's Ideals. When Caesar dies the Legion will fall apart. Might not happen overnight. Might take a few decades. But it'll happen. Basic human nature - greed, ambition, jealousy - will see to it."- Marcus
There are no cut-and-dried "good guys" in the Fallout universe. Never have been... but there are cut-and-dried "bad guys", and Caesar's Legion are exactly that. The OP's whole argument seems to be that the greatest of all available evils is preferable to inefficiency.
Have fun with being pro-fascist, OP (not that I think you are in real life... but that's exactly what the arguments you made here are).
Have fun with being pro-fascist, OP (not that I think you are in real life... but that's exactly what the arguments you made here are).
This, pretty much. Being a woman it always bothers me how many are ready to overlook the extreme cruelty of Caesar's Legion towards a majority of its' subjects in favor of entitling a few. The fact that women are treated as commodities (as is any man and child not being a part of the legions fighting force) should in and of itself be enough to deter any sane person from ever thinking that the Legion has enough redeeming qualities to make them people you'd want to side with.Legion said:
I ended up doing each ending with different characters and I can see the OP's points but I used my Legion character as an excuse to be a murdering bloodthirsty bastard. I would have rather sided with the Brotherhood overall. The Brotherhood is the only faction I even liked and I hated killing them in my Legion playthrough but Caesar demanded it.
That's not entirely true. The Khan thing was a mess, but they don't wipe out every city/group that doesn't agree with them. Take a look at Primm. Not to say that that's a sign of how great there are (seeing as how they didn't even seem to have the balls the save it from Powder Gangers even thought the Powder Gangers are their fault) just that 'mark you as hostile and wipe you out' is an unfair characterization. Or look at what happened in Freeside. Even when they assumed the Kings had severely beaten their liaison sent to discuss helping the people of Freeside, they didn't immediately claim Freeside and the Kings their enemy. They just ended their plans to help Freeside and instead handed out food to NCR citizens.MajorTomServo said:
They do absorb every society they can, though, but from what I can see they don't change it as much as the Legion does (Legion absorbs a society and forces it to follow its beliefs and making free people slaves).
And of course a society with one leader is going to run more efficiently and effectively than the bureaucratic mess the NCR is (instead of improving on American politics, they just brought them back which is hardly the smartest move).
I love me some Followers of the Apocalypse myself. They have their problems (similar to NCR they tend to stretch themselves thin, but that's just because they don't have the greatest stockpile of resources). That's why I almost always join them. Plus it doesn't hurt that their original leader/founder had a green mohawk. She wants to help people and she's kickass? Sign me up.
I wish they'd be a bit more proactive about new technology though. Simply harvesting old tech isn't going to last forever.
I also think the Brotherhood of Steel has substantial potential (if they follow Veronica's ideals, I mean). Seeing as how they were founded to prevent another great war. They go about it wrong, but there's potential in that ideal.
House is the best of the lot IMO. He's probably the smartest man alive, so if anyone can pull humanity out of their new dark age, it's him.
It'd probably be best if he worked with the NCR, but as that isn't an option (it was originally, but was cut for some reason) he's probably the best to side with.
Although my favourite playthroughs have been when I sided with the Legion. I generally play evil assholes when I get the chance, so it was great to get a main questline where I did just that, instead of rubbish like Fallout 3 where you're practically a saint right until the last mintute when you can choose to go evil for the lulz.
It'd probably be best if he worked with the NCR, but as that isn't an option (it was originally, but was cut for some reason) he's probably the best to side with.
Although my favourite playthroughs have been when I sided with the Legion. I generally play evil assholes when I get the chance, so it was great to get a main questline where I did just that, instead of rubbish like Fallout 3 where you're practically a saint right until the last mintute when you can choose to go evil for the lulz.
The hard part about that is most of what is there in terms of cruelty to their own people are anecdotes. There are tangible examples of the slaves in the camp, but there's only a few of those.Gethsemani said:
That's why I think a lot of people can overlook it.
You also have to look at it as a game world. Slavery is a different beast in Fallout because of how the world works (not to say that I agree with it even in the game world, just that there are more justifications, whether right or wrong, to be had for slavery in Fallout than in real life).