Why I fight for Caesar's Legion in Fallout

[MajorTomServo]

(There seems to be a lot of fallout threads lately...)

Fallout is one of my favorite series. The current apple of my eye is New Vegas, partly because, as Yahtzee would say, it's a water cooler game. It's fun to talk about what you did, who you killed, where you went, etc.

It seems that a lot of people I talk to are shocked that I always side with the Legion, being that they see the NCR as the 'good guys' and the Legion as the 'bad guy.' I don't think it's that cut and dry.

First of all, most of the Mojave has been fed tons of NCR propaganda. "Here we are, here to unite the wastes! All lets all converge and stand together under the NCR flag!" they say. What they mean though is "Join us or we'll mark you as hostile and wipe you out." As we can see from the Khans, they don't really give a shit about people. There are plenty of people across the wastes who'll tell you of terrible things NCR troops have done. They want land and power, just like any empire. At least the Legion is up-front about it. And that intimidation is what helps keep Legion territory safe. Unlike the NCR, who spreads themselves incredibly thin with poorly-trained, poorly-armed volunteers, Legion takes care of their own. I mean, if you were a bandit, where would you rather set up shop, the territory that says "Cross us and we'll arrest you and throw you in jail!" or the one that says "Cross us and you'll be crucified and your wife and children will be sold into slavery?" Legion ain't nothin' to fuck with.

That segways nicely into my next point; slavery. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, it's morally wrong. But it's something of a necessary evil IMHO. I mean, for one thing, free labor. But more importantly, the threat of slavery is a powerful bargaining chip. When the Legion conquers your territory, you can either give your children up to be slaves or soldiers. Any parent would pick the latter, thus growing the Legion's powerful army.

I don't want to sound like I'm pro-slavery IRL. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am for it in the fictional land of Fallout though. The NCR wants to rebuild the old world as it was. Sort of like, if society was on level five, and the war knocked it down to one, NCR wants to rebuild at level five. That's just not going to happen. Civilizations have to start at the bottom and build their way up, and the Legion realizes it. They may seem evil on the surface, but I think they're the best hope for the Mojave. The NCR is bloated, corrupt, and incompetent. As my dad would say, they couldn't find their ass with both hands.

 

[Wayneguard]

I loved the shit out of the 5 or 6 hours I got to play of NV. Unfortunately, both it and Fallout 3 give me terrible vertigo and nausea T_T

 

[scorptatious]

I for one am liking the amount of Fallout threads there are right now. Especially when it comes to New Vegas.

One of the things I love about the game is the fact that no side is completely right or completely wrong. Some sides are a bit more extreme yes, but still, it's not completely black and white.

As for the Legion. I can kinda see what Caesar is trying to do. By the sounds of things, his ideal empire could be more stable than that of the NCR. The problem is that not everyone within the Legion shares his views. A notable example being Legate Lanius. He's pretty much a brute plain and simple. If Caesar dies, he takes over and pretty much indiscriminately slaughters anyone who stands in the way of the Legion.

Either way, I don't really like the idea of having the Legion take over. The concept of absorbing a tribe and completely wiping out it's identity doesn't appeal to me. That and my last character was a girl. Who's to say they won't force me or people like Cass or Veronica into a life of slavery or forced marriage when they're done with me?

 

[The Scythian]

The game could have really benefited from actual Legion settlements. We only get to see the worst side of the Legion, and have to take Dale and Raul's word for it on their territory.

But, House FTW.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

The big problem with the legion is their training. The majority of them are armed with nothing more than football pads and baseball bats with nails in them. The only reason that they beat the shit out of the NCR is because of how badly organized they are. The legion gained strength by overrunning tribes and expanding. But they march on the strength of their army alone.

Their infrastructure is nonexistent. If the army goes, the nation goes with it. NCR can still survive without its armed forces, in theory, because it also has economic backing, having good relations with the trade caravans. It might splinter, but society would continue.

If Ceasar's legion was fighting against a well organized army, such as the larger Brotherhoods along the west coast, they wouldn't stand a chance. They lack mobility, being entirely on foot.

Cesar's legion is winning through brute force alone, but without leadership, they will shatter after defeat far worse than the NCR ever would.

 

[Magic Muffin Man]

I, personally, sided with Yes Man, because every other side had one major flaw holding me back from joining them.

Caesar? Slavers, rapists, luddites.

NCR? Bloated, corrupt government run by two-faced bastards, share cropping.

House? Mummy.

 

[shadowslayer81]

I, personally, sided with Yes Man, because every other side had one major flaw holding me back from joining them.

Caesar? Slavers, rapists, luddites.
NCR? Bloated, corrupt government run by two-faced bastards, share cropping.
House? Mummy.

Same, I just had a complete "well I don't want anything to do with this" sort of moment between the two.

 

[Tuesday Night Fever]

...they see the NCR as the 'good guys' and the Legion as the 'bad guy.' I don't think it's that cut and dry.

It's definitely not that cut and dry. I'd say both factions are half good, half bad. It's just a matter of deciding which 'good' aspect appeals more to you, or which 'bad' aspect is less damning to you. It's why I love them both so much.

What they mean though is "Join us or we'll mark you as hostile and wipe you out." As we can see from the Khans, they don't really give a shit about people.

To play some devil's advocate... how is this really any different than the Legion? To Legion isn't it just "Join us or we'll mark you as hostile and either wipe you out or force you to join us"? The Legion really doesn't give a shit about people either. The only thing the Legion gives a shit about is the Legion. They have zero interest in maintaining cultures or even individuality, they just want to expand their area of influence and strengthen their numbers. People are seen as little more than resources to both NCR and the Legion.

There are plenty of people across the wastes who'll tell you of terrible things NCR troops have done.

There are plenty of people who will do the same for the Legion, and in both cases you can witness their handiwork (Khans for the NCR and Nipton for the Legion for example).

At least the Legion is up-front about it.

For the most part, sure. But they've also shown that like NCR they aren't above subterfuge either. In one of the game's sidequests you learn that the Legion is working to strike a deal with the Khans. Given the Legion's history of absorbing cultures and destroying their identities, it's practically assured that they'd use the Khans as little more than a tool and then do the exact same thing, effectively eliminating them. There's zero evidence of the Legion actually planning to honor any deals with the Khans. In fact, conversation with the Legion representative there practically spells out their true intentions.

Legion takes care of their own.

In the sense that caravans don't tend to get raided in Legion territory, sure? They certainly don't take care of their own women, children, or slaves. They don't even take particularly good care of you if you're a soldier. Hell, you might get killed by your own officers simply because some other unit didn't meet expectations. You may be "safe" from invaders while under the Legion banner, but you're certainly not cared for. You're a resource to be exploited, and nothing more. NCR at the very least tries to actually care for people under its banner (it's just not very competent at it).

Sort of like, if society was on level five, and the war knocked it down to one, NCR wants to rebuild at level five. That's just not going to happen. Civilizations have to start at the bottom and build their way up, and the Legion realizes it. They may seem evil on the surface, but I think they're the best hope for the Mojave. The NCR is bloated, corrupt, and incompetent. As my dad would say, they couldn't find their ass with both hands.

There's a problem with this philosophy. A huge one. NCR isn't "starting on level five." NCR started from scratch back at Shady Sands in the very first Fallout. It's been growing, developing, and expanding ever since then. Shady Sands/NCR did start from "level one" and they've been reasonably successful at their endeavors. Note that the territory you explore in New Vegas is at the very outskirts of their influence. Frontier towns, more or less. It's not unreasonable to assume that in time the Mojave region would end up every bit as developed as the rest of NCR, and somewhere else would be the new frontier.

I would also argue that your last point is a non-issue. The NCR may be modelling themselves on the United States and becoming bloated, corrupt, and incompetent... but the Legion is also modeled on a government that became bloated, corrupt, and incompetent before its own downfall. This goes back to why I feel both NCR and the Legion are great factions... because realistically, they're both two sides of the exact same coin.

EDIT:
For the record, I admittedly do see myself as being more likely to side with NCR. While both the NCR and the Legion have their ups and downs, I think NCR at the end of the day actually has more staying power. The Legion puts -everything- into its military, and if its military falls, it has nothing. While their military as large, they're also woefully under-equipped. Most Legion infantry are wearing sporting equipment for armor and using baseball bats and machetes - once the NCR works out its organizational problems, even in large numbers, that kind of equipment isn't going to do much against people in military grade combat armor with assault rifles. Additionally, the NCR isn't entirely about its military. It's built itself up as being an economic powerhouse in the region, and would likely be able to survive to some degree on that as a fall-back should its military fail. And lastly, while both factions have a lot of problems, I feel like as a whole the quality of life under the NCR is probably higher. There might be more risk of bandits, but at least you have human rights under the NCR flag.

 

[number2301]

To reiterate some of the above, did you play Fallout 1 or 2? I was immediately on the side of the NCR, even with all their faults, because of what I went through to help them in the earlier games.

Also, a phrase comes to mind from your justification of the Legion, "he who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither".

 

[Assassin Xaero]

The Followers were the only ones I semi agreed with, seemed like House, NCR, and The Legion were all just different kinds of evil.

 

[Dansen]

The Followers were the only ones I semi agreed with, seemed like House, NCR, and The Legion were all just different kinds of evil.

I'm not sure but don't the followers include remnants of the Enclave? I never go involved with them because they always seemed too controlling.

 

[Tuesday Night Fever]

The Followers were the only ones I semi agreed with...

The problem with The Followers of the Apocalypse is that they're not really a faction. They're more of a humanitarian organization. They're primarily focused on spreading knowledge and providing free medical care. They lack the infrastructure to actually operate as a governing body. It'd be like handing over the White House to the American Red Cross.

 

[GTwander]

Everyone knows that the Mormons pose the greatest threat to the Mojave.
Or Hubologists...

In RL I am an NCR patriot, through and through. Even questioned getting the bear flag tatted on me, til I realized how dumb that would be. Would be better off with a bumper sticker.

Mr. House is the man, though.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

I, personally, sided with Yes Man, because every other side had one major flaw holding me back from joining them.

Caesar? Slavers, rapists, luddites.

NCR? Bloated, corrupt government run by two-faced bastards, share cropping.

House? Mummy.

I like you. Where do I sign up?

Honestly, you summed it up nicely.

In addition, I'd like to mention that I think that both the Brotherhood of Steel and the Followers of the Apocalypse both deserve to keep on marching and doing their thing. As for the NCR, I started out really wanting to like them, but I ended up shooting them on sight. I also didn't feel any love for the criminals operating out of that prison. Annoying booby trap gangstas, they all had to die horrible deaths at my hand.

As for the Legion, well, I must admit I didn't like how things started out (raping, murdering, chopping people up, putting them up on crosses... not exactly my cup of tea), but I was genuinely interested in lending an ear to Caesar and have him explain to me why the Legion does what it does, and what's in it for me. After I met him (and decided that I want to just murder him and be done with him), I tried to get into the arena for some training and maybe some easy bucks. Turned out they're not an equal-opportunity lot. So I did my best to wipe them all out. Took some save games, about 150, and quite some determination, but, eventually, they stopped coming at me. That was great fun.

I wanted to like House, too, for a little while. But the thing that really was on my mind for most of the time I spent on the strip was that I wanted to nuke the place, as most people there were just too easy to hate, and that was even before I met the cannibals.

All in all, my experience of New Vegas was marred by me not even liking real-world Vegas, and post-fallout Vegas was way worse. I hated most factions, I hated the flora and fauna of the place, I hated that annoying TV-head robot sheriff, I hated quite a lot of the NPCs... Two-Dog seemed like a really nice, diverse and interesting guy in direct comparison.

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

While Rome lasted a long time, it do so by being the most ruthless son of a bitches in the Mediterranean if not the entire world, even beating out the Aztecs in my opinion. Because while the Aztecs would sacrifice you for their gods, the Romans would see you torn apart by wild animals for fun.

IF Edward Sallow (also known as Caesar) crazy plan to turn New Vegas into Neo-Rome actually succeeded it could work, for a time. It would just be one of the most brutal regimes in existence which would eventually collapse as various leaders tried to gain the throne. (the infighting had already started in-game between Vulpes and Lanius)

 

[blackball3242]

You are making an argument that we have to build a society around one form of social organization in order to advance to another form of social organization. But what exactly are the benefits of a psuedo-roman dictatorship?

You say that the legion is at least honest with what it does. While this is true, I don't see this as actually mattering.

What really matters is whether trade routes are protected and people feel safe in general. While it's true that the legion is very intimidating, and much more scary than the NCR for bandits, you also have to consider what happens when Caesar dies.

Because of the way the legion is structured, you can expect that once the Caesar dies there will be a massive power vacuum, where as groups of soldiers previously felt loyalty to Caesar, they may replace that loyalty to generals who will be in a position to grab power. The whole system is built around Caesar, one example of this is that legionaries often greet each other with "hail to Caesar". So once he dies, the whole system pretty much falls apart and you're left with a multi state area of war lords vying for power. That isn't going to be a very peaceful or safe place to live.

Another problem with the legion is it's dedication to antiquated weapons. How is the Legion going to defeat the NCR who use more advanced weapons or even potentially Mr.House and his bots? Yes, they were able to sweep up disorganized and poorly armed tribes, but charging headlong into sustained machine gun fire is NOT a winning tactic.

While it does seem like the NCR is breaking down from within, it is still managing to maintain some semblance of order and progress, whereas everything about the Legion represents regression- their aversion to firearms and modern medicine for example.

That being said, there are really 3 competing ideologies here- Republicanism (NCR), some form of capitalism under a benevolent dictator (mr. house), and Fascism (legion).

I think that while the NCR is better than the Legion, Mr.House is actually the best choice because his bots can create law and order in Vegas and possibly the surrounding area. There is a lot of capital (money) in New Vegas that could be used to begin large scale industry and production and I think Mr.House is the best facilitator of that.

 

[JochemHippie]

You know why I wouldn't ever side with the Legion?

Cause atleast the NCR has more then 3 fucking quests.