Why is there debate about used games?

[Berenzen]

Honestly, I think that used games should be sold in used game shops only. Selling a $55 copy of used game, with the new version costing $60 right beside it is just skeezy, and people will go for the $55 copy, because it's cheaper.

Essentially, I believe that retailers that get the shipped game should not be able to sell used copies of the game. People can still transfer ownership, sure, but it's done outside of major game retailers. If you want to go purchase a used game, you go to a used game store. You want a new game? Go to a new game retailer.

I do not know how or why PC games seem to cost less than their console equivalents, but it does indicate that perhaps the solution for the next generation may not be as open-and-shut as "Develop better-looking games for faster hardware, sell for more money." I just hope someone listens.

PC games typically require you to sign an EULA, which says that you cannot redistribute the game. It was more or less done to make them able to sue you if you pirate the game. But it's catch-all phrasing disallows the selling of used PC games. Because of this, PC exclusives can be sold for less money than others. The reason why they aren't lowered for non-exclusives is because of MSRPs, the MSRPs of games on X360 and PS3 is typically around $60.

 

[Freyar]

anyway we are going OT, you are tired and did not actually answer the question so i'll leave it at that and you can get some kip

I don't really get to leave work for another three hours.

The argument about wear is correct, and the same question could potentially be raised for E-books. Are E-books transferable?

 

[jp201]

The main issue I have with used games is the push by companies to get you to buy them. Employees at gamestop are obligated to ask if they would rather have the used version of a new game. Just yesterday at gamestop, I see someone buying a $60 game then the employee asks them if they want used version for $55 and they end up getting the used game. That is a sale directly taken away from that company by gamestop.

 

[Rednog]

Does anyone here work at Gamestop? How many of the used games that you buy do you actually end up selling? Do you end up recycling most of them?

If there is actually a significant margin to be made in the used games market, the only real problem is lack of competition. If a 2nd B&M opened up next to Gamestop that paid more for used games, half the posts in this thread would be irrelevant.

I worked in gamestop about 5-6 years ago, I can only testify as to how things worked then and not now.
As for how many games we take in vs how many we shell out, it is kind of hard to say unless you're a manager or someone who is actually keeping track of things like that. At the time we had a rotation of people so I don't really know how many came in vs out.
But from my own personal view when I worked the most recent generation of consoles had come out and we still had a significant portion of the store dedicated to the last generation and those copies of games would eventually sell one day or another.
And since at that time we were "encouraged" to push used games hardcore (because if you sold more used you got more hours to work) and while the day to day varied, I'd more often than not push more used games then new.


In terms of excess games, they kind of kept a cap on it. Like if we were getting a bajillion copies of crappy game X we'd pretty much offer damn near nothing for it, even if it was a newer game. I honestly don't know what happened to games we eventually pulled from shelves, we would pack them in boxes and send them back to corporate.

And yes there is a large market in used games, gamestop makes millions in profit from used games each year.

 

[Joccaren]

Why do people argue about used game sales?
Because people like you bring it up.

Yes, it is perfectly within a users rights to resell a game and give no money to the developers. It is also perfectly within the developer's rights to add incentive to buy from them. Whenever someone complains about that sort of stuff, these arguments start.
Basically I see it as 'I'm entitled to save money by buying used, and make money by selling my used games, but developers aren't entitled to try and make more money through enticing people to buy from them'. Or, in short: 'I'm entitled to save and earn money, but developers are not entitled to earn money'. That is the whole DLC argument. Yes, you're getting ripped off. So what. By buying used, the developer is getting ripped off. Both of you are perfectly within your rights, so both should stop complaining.

 

[Sylveria]

Used games are inherently fine and dandy. As long as you aren't copying the data on the disc before returning it there is no (or should be no) grey area on the matter. Anyone who says otherwise is a dumby mcdumbface. Or is a creator and feels the sting of a used market.

If you don't mind (or even if you do ) I'ma just repost what I said last time, cuz I'm tired.

I said this last (and recent) Used game thread, but how but in brief list form this time?


No, Used game is not the same thing as piracy. Anyone who says so is dumb
Yes, people should be able to buy/sell their used games as they want
Yes, used games are a cause for concern for developers/publishers

Gamestop gets to sell games for decent profit several times over due to generally little decrease in value per trade in, something most used markets have differently


Yes, they care about money. That's how business works. They should want to make money by making quality products though, not by ransoming content.


There, that sums up my feelings on this debate. I'd like to think that's a pretty solid stance.

Very well put Boshi

 

[Jinx_Dragon]

I don't think that's the issue, I think the issue is places like EB Games and GameStop, who are selling used games at 90% profit. If you buy a game from some guy for $3 only to resell it a day later for $30, you are an asshole. That's the problem. Primarily because of the volume, which takes away massive profits from the game companies, and the fact that they are typically selling the games at almost the same price as the new games.

If you buy a game used, you are getting only a slight benefit, the retailer gets 100% profit, and the publisher gets screwed.

Won't argue with you there, they really do have some very dirty business practices. I still like the rants that are floating out there which lays all the internal dirty laundry to bear. Please forgive me if I am remembering incorrectly but I really like the story about the one kid who walked in with a unopened version of a game he got but didn't want, received a pittance of in-store credit for it, and before he was even out the door they sold the very same copy for many times what they gave the kid... of real money.

However, while I do agree it is a terrible practice it does not eliminate any of the arguments for used games sale. It just shows that online trading, as pointed out in the rant, is the way to go if your looking for used games. There are online trading sites for the city you are in, so you can even look at the good before you purchase and make sure they work. Look into them if you are going to purchase used games.

In the end the seller will have more money in their pocket, real money not in-store-credit, and the buyer will save even more money then going to a Game stop.

 

[Samus Aran but a man]

Escapists, please help me understand something: why are people arguing that used games are bad? like any other product, you pay money for them, then they are yours, and you can do what you want with them.

By what jump in space-logic does anyone think there is justification for trying to stop you from excercising your ownership of a game?

I understand the companies, at least: they are just fishing for bigger profits. But why do people accept this blatant thievery on the part of publishers? Why are people so accepting of getting ripped off? it just does not make sense to me.

My thoughts exactly, man. One game is bought, one game is played.

 

[the_green_dragon]

I hear alot of people screaming "GO CAPITALISM! CAPITALISM ROCKS" even tho the corporations are ripping people off, some people seem to still think that capitalism is the best thing ever and support to corporations even if they themselves lose out.

 

[the_green_dragon]

I'm all for supporting the companies if they make good worthwhile products.

Skyrim = awesome, take my money

 

[thespyisdead]

my opinion: less used games, more piracy, simple as that

 

[Freyar]

I hear alot of people screaming "GO CAPITALISM! CAPITALISM ROCKS" even tho the corporations are ripping people off, some people seem to still think that capitalism is the best thing ever and support to corporations even if they themselves lose out.

The problem is in the expectation that more money in means more money for the actual developers, and not the company as an entity.

 

[Sharalon]

In my opinion, buying used games is just as bad as pirating, because the only reason I don't pirate games is that I want to support the developer, and I don't give a fuck about Gamestop.
If you feel like you have done your share in supporting the people who made the game by simply giving gamestop a few bucks that's up to you.

 

[Pandabearparade]

It's not debatable. It's simple fact.

I have a golden toilet seat. That's a simple fact.

*Checks bathroom*

Dammit. It turns out that asserting something doesn't make it true!

That's a lost sale. How is this shit so complicated for some people?

Oh, it isn't complicated, you're just wrong. I've bought lots of games that hit the bargain bin used just because I'd rather buy three old titles than one new one for the same price. If those games hadn't been cheap and used I wouldn't have even considered buying them in the first place. Thus they didn't lose a sale.

If the used game is good, the odds are I'll buy the sequel new.

To give a few examples of titles I've gotten a sequel for after buying a title used:
-Assassin's Creed.
-Infamous.
-Fallout 3.
-Oblivion.
-Batman: Arkham Asylum.

I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones that come immediately to mind.

Edit: Oh, and Prototype.

 

[Wargamer]

As I've said before, "used" is a very misleading word.

Too many people are grabbing the Bargin Bin and using that to defend used games. That isn't the problem. Half the time you simply won't find a 'new' copy of a game for £20 and so it's used or nothing. As such, that can be safely ignored.

The problem, as myself and others have said, is the pushing of "newly used" games. My classic example was Dragon Age - £45 brand new with a shitload of 'free' DLC in the box. The man behind the counter, who we shall call Retard, offers me a used copy for £42.99, claiming it's just as good as new.

Retard is pushing used sales, because Retard has been told to. Retard's company makes a lot more money off that sale; Retard and his company is stealing money from the publisher by doing this kind of 'newly used' sale.

In the case of Dragon Age, I was doubly pissed off because Retard was trying to steal from me as well! Those who remember what came free with Dragon Age: Origins will know it is worth a lot more than £2.01 on the PSN.

However, this is exactly the kind of reaction publishers MUST make, because companies have been allowed to make unfair business models and do well with them.

 

[everythingbeeps]

It's not debatable. It's simple fact.

I have a golden toilet seat. That's a simple fact.

*Checks bathroom*

Dammit. It turns out that asserting something doesn't make it true!

That's a lost sale. How is this shit so complicated for some people?

Oh, it isn't complicated, you're just wrong. I've bought lots of games that hit the bargain bin used just because I'd rather buy three old titles than one new one for the same price. If those games hadn't been cheap and used I wouldn't have even considered buying them in the first place. Thus they didn't lose a sale.

If the used game is good, the odds are I'll buy the sequel new.

To give a few examples of titles I've gotten a sequel for after buying a title used:
-Assassin's Creed.
-Infamous.
-Fallout 3.
-Oblivion.
-Batman: Arkham Asylum.

I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones that come immediately to mind.

Edit: Oh, and Prototype.

Once again, this is people taking their own philosophies and applying them to EVERYONE. I don't give a toss why you buy games. But in order to win this particular line of debate, you have to suggest that ALL used gamers are the same as you, and that NONE of them would start buying new if the used market were to vanish. Of course that's absurd. Certainly some of those people would start buying new, and that's already more sales than before. As I said before, they would probably start getting more selective about games, and not go for quantity over quality like you obviously do. They'd realize that it is better to get three good new games instead of nine mediocre old ones.

As for your second point, I've already defeated that many posts ago. You buy AC used and AC2 new. But it doesn't matter, because other people are still buying AC2 used after buying AC used, and they'll buy AC:B and AC:R used, and AC3 used, because a lot of people ONLY buy used, just because they can. And there's at least as many of those as people who buy used and then go new with the next game. At best, it probably evens out in the end.

 

[Pandabearparade]

Once again, this is people taking their own philosophies and applying them to EVERYONE.

No. You made the claim that a used game bought is a sale lost, you did not qualify the statement. That's not true for me, and many others like me. Your claim has been falsified.

I don't give a toss why you buy games.

I don't recall asking you to. You made a claim, your claim is false.

But in order to win this particular line of debate, you have to suggest that ALL used gamers are the same as you, and that NONE of them would start buying new if the used market were to vanish.

Nope. Even if people like me are only a small minority, your assertion that one used sale=one new sale lost is still incorrect.

Of course that's absurd. Certainly some of those people would start buying new, and that's already more sales than before.

If buying used suddenly ceased, new sales would likely increase. I don't see what that has to do with anything I said, or why I should care. If Joe Nobody wants to trade in his legally purchased copy of Madden Rehash 2012 for a shiny nickle, and Fred Nobody (no relation) wants to pay nearly full price for it, that's not my business or my problem. It's not your business either, because it's not your property. If you want to buy new, go for it, I don't think any used game enthusiasts are going to give you problems over it.

As I said before, they would probably start getting more selective about games, and not go for quantity over quality like you obviously do. They'd realize that it is better to get three good new games instead of nine mediocre old ones.

The assumption here is that the three 'shiny new games' are somehow better, by default, than the grungy, icky nine used games. That is not so. The used games were new games a year ago, and there is no reason the nine used games can't equal the three shiny new ones in quality. In fact, the used games have had time to accumulate a reputation, so the buyer can make a far more informed decision with far less money invested.

As for your second point, I've already defeated that many posts ago. You buy AC used and AC2 new. But it doesn't matter, because other people are still buying AC2 used after buying AC used, and they'll buy AC:B and AC:R used, and AC3 used, because a lot of people ONLY buy used, just because they can. And there's at least as many of those as people who buy used and then go new with the next game. At best, it probably evens out in the end.

Each of those copies of AC:B and AC:R were bought new, and then resold. Clearly the people who bought the games didn't think they were worth keeping. Again, though I personally don't see what would motivate someone to buy a game for sixty dollars and trade it back for a third of that (they must not have places to rent games nearby), it's still their right to do so.

Perhaps the solution is to create a game with replay value that piques customer interest? Skyrim sold well, and I don't hear Todd Howard whinging like a dying howler monkey about used game sales. Just a thought.

 

[Pandabearparade]

In the case of Dragon Age, I was doubly pissed off because Retard was trying to steal from me as well! Those who remember what came free with Dragon Age: Origins will know it is worth a lot more than £2.01 on the PSN.

I'm not the type to buy a game used if it's only three dollars less, but if someone else is, that's their business. It's certainly not a reason that used games as a whole should disappear. There are good examples and bad examples, that's just capitalism.

Edit: Though the DLC in DAO is so terrible that it might be worth saving the three dollars, as an aside. Unless the package includes Awakening.