"Why not just watch porn?"

[Lieju]

The thing about the Tiny Miniskirts joke is that we already knew that about him at the time. It didn't tell us anything new. It was just unneeded as they could have just stayed dramatic and we would have known just as much, but not had the random bit of comedy. But like I said, it was there to be entertaining and entertain is exactly what it did. It wasn't even a deep or thought-provoking joke, but it did it's job just fine. People still take the show seriously, despite things like that.

But Mustang also gets good character-moments.

It kind reminds me of the whole intelligent comedy vs comedy that doesn't actively try to be intelligent (ecchi and comedy really are completely analogous when it comes to their inclusion in art). If they both make you laugh, there isn't any reason to only seek out one of them, but some people want to only watch "intelligent" comedy to make themselves seem smarter than those who don't (You know the kind. "Haw haw, is for the lowest common denominator. and is for intelligent people. Too bad you don't understand it like I do!").

It is similar, in that I hate it when people think putting crude references to sex, farting and cursing makes something instantly funny.
All those things can be funny (I love both Peep Show and Gintama, and they have quite a lot of it), but they need context, and characterization.

Similarly, I don't find it sexy when there just are random boobs, I need context and characterization.
And I definitely don't like rape and sexualization of underage girls.

I don't know if you're that type, it just reminded me of that kind of person. It's fine if regular ecchi just doesn't appeal to your tastes. I just hope you're not looking for "smarter ecchi" just because you want it to look better to outside viewers. Isn't that a waste of your time?

Is it so difficult to believe not everyone finds the same things sexy, or that some people think sex shouldn't be put in some things?

Actually, I'm curious. What is smarter ecchi to you? Any examples?

It's difficult to find. (and depends on your definition of 'ecchi') One that comes to mind is Nana to Kaoru. BDSM isn't even my thing, but it kept me interested with the characterization and the relationships of the people involved and the depiction of BDSM/exhibitionism that was more than just female characters being pushed into uncomfortable situations.

 

[EbonBehelit]

Ah, but you see, you've got it all wrong. It's not being 'avoided' but explored (or at least attempting to) in more creative ways than simply having a women and a man go at it. It's meant to be a fun and different way to explore sexuality, you see.

We're obviously going to have to agree to disagree. You see creativity and style, I see deliberate design.

Wouldn't it get boring if every single time sexuality were referred to in fiction, it was the same old "I'm going to have sex with her" as the last story?

Indeed. They should totally BEGIN with "I'm going to have sex with her" and have the rest of the story dealing with the aftermath

 

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

The thing about the Tiny Miniskirts joke is that we already knew that about him at the time. It didn't tell us anything new. It was just unneeded as they could have just stayed dramatic and we would have known just as much, but not had the random bit of comedy. But like I said, it was there to be entertaining and entertain is exactly what it did. It wasn't even a deep or thought-provoking joke, but it did it's job just fine. People still take the show seriously, despite things like that.

But Mustang also gets good character-moments.

Even still, though. The joke was still unneeded, as are a lot of the jokes in that series. That was the point I was trying to make.

I don't know if you're that type, it just reminded me of that kind of person. It's fine if regular ecchi just doesn't appeal to your tastes. I just hope you're not looking for "smarter ecchi" just because you want it to look better to outside viewers. Isn't that a waste of your time?

Is it so difficult to believe not everyone finds the same things sexy, or that some people think sex shouldn't be put in some things?

Not really. Just moving along the conversation. I haven't much else to do since I'm pretty much nocturnal and have finished the things I had to do today.

Actually, I'm curious. What is smarter ecchi to you? Any examples?

It's difficult to find. (and depends on your definition of 'ecchi') One that comes to mind is Nana to Kaoru. BDSM isn't even my thing, but it kept me interested with the characterization and the relationships of the people involved and the depiction of BDSM/exhibitionism that was more than just female characters being pushed into uncomfortable situations.

I figured that might be what you were talking about.

That does sound nice, but I think it might be rare because it's a difference in culture.

It would probably happen in cartoons more often if other countries were more willing to include ecchi in their cartoons.

 

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

Wouldn't it get boring if every single time sexuality were referred to in fiction, it was the same old "I'm going to have sex with her" as the last story?

Indeed. They should totally BEGIN with "I'm going to have sex with her" and have the rest of the story dealing with the aftermath

sooooo... Having a kid? XD

Wait, isn't that basically "Son of the mask" or "Baby Blues"? XD

 

[xplosive59]

It is rare that I see an anime with any fan service, that is probably just my choices but I don't feel as though this is a massive problem in anime as a whole. The worst thing is when people say "I have only seen High School of The Dead and I have come to the conclusion that all anime is porn" which I have heard multiple times.

 

[Piorn]

People like to hate what they see at first glance, not what it's actually about.
That's why HL2 greyed the blood in germany, but kept the shooting people in the face, and and somehow that was less violent.
Or how Dead Space wasn't cut at all, because it doesn't "look like humans".
And every child over the age of 4 knows what word is behind the censor beeps anyways.

It's just people attacking things in the most superficial way possible.

 

[KeyMaster45]

Because some great animes have been stunted by the sheer stupid amount of fan service. My favored example:

High School of the Dead

Now I loved HSD. However, the amount of fan service is so extreme in that show that it just seems like it'd be much easier to cut out the middle man and go to midgetsandgiraffesmakingtenderlove.com (...or a different site >.> <.<)

Frankly, I found it incredibly distracting. While I liked the anime a lot, I just plain feel uncomfortable sharing this anime with friends.

I'm not going to tell creators what to do with their shows/games or judge the fans since I'm aware that this is just kind of a trope of anime. However, I think they need to realize that they are isolating a lot of potential viewers (or in my case, causing a fan like myself not trying to get others to give the show a shot).

Perfect example. I didn't mind some of the more funny bits they did (to the point where it bordered on parody), but a lot of it just came off as... creepy...

There were more than a few scenes from that anime that had me rolling my eyes thinking, "Get on with it!"

It's worth pointing out that the creator of high school of the dead is a well-known hentai manga author/artist, or so my friend informed me so many years ago, and that HS of the Dead was them seeing how far they could push the fan service envelop. Point being, that it is not an anime meant to be taken seriously in any capacity, and really is borderline softcore porn with heavy amounts of gore thrown in because reasons; hence scenes like the matrix boobs.

In this particular instance the duck barking like a dog is in fact doing so just to mess with us, and not because it wishes it was a dog.

 

[Lieju]

Even still, though. The joke was still unneeded, as are a lot of the jokes in that series. That was the point I was trying to make.

How do you define 'unneeded'?
It wasn't totally divorced from rest of the series, and it was part of the overall-tone. You could remove one fight-scene and the series could still work, so does it mean fight-scenes were 'unneeded'?

Now, if Mustang had no characterization otherwise, and nothing to do with the story, and was in just for that one joke, it would be far different.

That does sound nice, but I think it might be rare because it's a difference in culture.

It would probably happen in cartoons more often if other countries were more willing to include ecchi in their cartoons.

Or if sex and sexualisation was handled in a more mature way. Cultural differences don't mean freedom from criticism.

There's also the problem of lumping together sex and sexual violence.
Every time someone criticises depiction of rape in something they get a ton of comments accusing them of being some kind of prude. When in fact prudishness is the reason why rape is so often handled so badly in media.

Depicting rape is somehow more acceptable than consensual sex in countries lke US. (And because depicting women having sexual freedom is just creepy, apparently.)

 

[rob_simple]

You realize HOTD would not exist were it not for the tits? People can't sit there and say it would be better without them because it wouldn't EXIST without them. So no, it could not be better.

Um, I don't know about the anime, but I remember the manga being perfectly fine without constant tits; there's plenty there to keep me titillated, otherwise. (Do you see what I did there?)

OT: I didn't really understand the OP, but from what I can gather he/she is upset that we're saying it's perverted to put boobs and crotch shots in anime --or any form of media-- when it doesn't need to be there?

I'll be honest, I can think of probably a ten or twenty examples off the top of my head of games or animes that I've been put off of by the unnecessary forcing of fan service on the player/viewer. If it is put in the show/game purely to arouse, then, yeah, you should just watch porn; I don't need that stuff in my other media unless it's in context, which it almost never is.

As a very mild example, I just finished playing Prototype 2, and there was one scene where Heller is talking to a woman and she takes this ridiculous pose to access a laptop, just so the camera can linger on her arse. It was utterly ridiculous, unnecessary, out of context considering the fucking bleak tone of the game and just made me think, 'this is why people still dismiss video games as adolescent fantasy for teenage boys.'

 

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

Even still, though. The joke was still unneeded, as are a lot of the jokes in that series. That was the point I was trying to make.

How do you define 'unneeded'?
It wasn't totally divorced from rest of the series, and it was part of the overall-tone. You could remove one fight-scene and the series could still work, so does it mean fight-scenes were 'unneeded'?

Now, if Mustang had no characterization otherwise, and nothing to do with the story, and was in just for that one joke, it would be far different.

Unneeded as in it didn't tell us anything more about his character that we didn't already know. He didn't grow as a result. His character wasn't developed any further. The story wasn't brought forward at all. The joke was solely there to entertain. That doesn't make it a bad thing. It contributed to the overall experience of watching FMA, yes, but everything that a show has to offer does that.

you couldn't remove any fight scene in the same way you could remove that joke.

That does sound nice, but I think it might be rare because it's a difference in culture.

It would probably happen in cartoons more often if other countries were more willing to include ecchi in their cartoons.

Or if sex and sexualisation was handled in a more mature way. Cultural differences don't mean freedom from criticism.

Never said it did. Just saying, if some other country were to include sexuality, it would probably be done in a style more appealing to you.

Japan's entertainment industry does what its viewership likes.

 

[Bocaj2000]

The reason that we complain is that, more often than not, ecchi has no place in the work that it's in.

Is that not for the creators to decide?

So, yeah. Sexuality CAN be used properly, but it's, more often than not, just softcore porn used to get ratings

And that's an issue why?

1: Read "Death of the Author".

2: Out of place ecchi is just as distracting and annoying as out of place violence or out of place cursing. If it doesn't belong in the scene, it breaks verisimilitude and detracts from the piece as a whole. If you don't see why that's bad to a work of art, then you're not worth my time.

Trying to limit art to only ever be one way is not helping art and is actually making it less diverse. I don't care for a world where art only ever follows one person's set of rules.

I didn't give you a "set of rules". I just said if something is out of place it detracts from the whole. That's not a "rule", that's an observation.

Edit:

EDIT: Can someone can explain to me the artistic purpose of fanservice and how it contributes to "the experience"? I really want to know at this point.

Because it's nice to look at.

Then look at porn.

"Why does Fullmetal Alchemist need the comedy parts?"

"Because it's funny and entertaining"

"then go to a comedy club"

----

"Why do the characters in this show have such creative clothing?"

"because it's nice to look at"

"Then go to a fashion show.

----

"Why does this video game have to have a story?"

"Because the story's thought provoking and adds context to what the characters are doing."

"Then go watch a movie."

---

"Why is the main character so good looking?"

"Because it makes it aesthetically pleasing."

"Then go read a fashion model magazine"

---

Where's the difference?

Aside from your video game argument, there is no difference. In every case, the second person responds with a vague reason that has better alternatives. If the ONLY reason you have something in your work is "because it's pretty" then you don't know what you're doing as an artist.

 

[xPixelatedx]

Women in bikinis is not porn (imagine the economies that would destroyed if it was!).

According to the internet, they are. At least if it is a plastic bust of a woman in a bikini, and it's bloody. Also just existing is apparently "Suggestive", because being upright and straight and in no pose what so ever is now enough to be suggestive; especially if there is blood involved. Never have I been so offended then when others took offense to a zombie novelty item because "It was supposed to be sexy". That's fucking sick...

People are weird, and the internet terrifies me sometimes.

The point is, I think these specific labels you are trying to assign to things are actually moot, because people see what they want to see at the end of the day... if it fits their agenda.

 

[Bocaj2000]

1: Read "Death of the Author".

One day, perhaps. For the purposes of continuing this discussion, I'll work with the description on Wikipedia.

I don't believe it relates to the issue at hand.

You may not like the inclusion of said aspect but as the creation of the Author it's their place to include it.

It's their place to include it? Yes... they make it. And it's my place to critique their decisions. As someone who critiques professional and peer work alike, someone whose in an academic setting to pick apart works to see what enables the piece and what detracts from it on a daily basis, I don't think that my opinion is inane.

2: Out of place ecchi is just as distracting and annoying as out of place violence or out of place cursing. If it doesn't belong in the scene, it breaks verisimilitude and detracts from the piece as a whole.

Who's to say what belongs in a scene? to quote wikipedia

"To give a text an Author" and assign a single, corresponding interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text."

By arguing your interpretation as the only interpretation you are going against the very thing "Death of the Author" is trying say.

... you misunderstood the wiki page. The point was that the author's interpretation doesn't matter. The point was that our interpretation is the only thing that matters when discussing an author's work. In other words, my opinion is more valid than the author's intentions. You can think whatever you want as well, but the author's intentions are irrelevent.

If you don't see why that's bad to a work of art, then you're not worth my time.

Why does every piece of media need to be "art" or at least your definition of art?

Nothing has to be art, but they will always be critiqued as such. That's how the world of critique works.

EDIT: Can someone can explain to me the artistic purpose of fanservice and how it contributes to "the experience"? I really want to know at this point.

Because it's nice to look at.

Then look at porn.

Like you said it contributes to the experience. It is not the sole aspect of the experience one is their to experience.

Is that really such a hard concept to comprehend?

What experience? If you add something just because "it's pretty" and no other reason, then you don't know what you're doing as an artist. If you don't want me to dismiss you, then expand on "Because it's nice to look at."

 

[Strain42]

For me it depends on the anime in question. For instance, I hate the "harem" genre, stuff like Love Hina.

Now I have watched Love Hina, and I even used to read the manga when I was a kid. But as I got older and looked at it in hindsight...

It's boring. The story of that series isn't better than your average porn. It's basically a porn without sex in it. So I basically DO have to ask myself "Why not just watch a series that's just as good as this, but has sex in it?"

Now I admit that some series are quite good as far as the writing and characters go, and they just so happen to contain a lot of over the top sexual fanservice (For instance, I enjoyed the recent Witchblade anime, despite the heavy fanservice)

If the series is really good, just features fanservice, that's fine, whatever. I understand why you'd wanna watch that over porn.

But the vast majority of fanservicey anime that I've seen (Love Hina, Chobits, Divergence Eve, Sekirei,...um...that one with the guy who is like a wizard's grandkids so like 3 girls want his child...starts with an M)...I'd rather just watch porn. At least then I know why I'm watching it. I don't have to fool myself into thinking I'm actually enjoying the story or characters because I like the titillation it provides.

Obviously it's different for everyone, but that's how it is for me.

 

[Benrawr]

Why are all anime boobs so insistent on being made of pudding?

 

[Danny Ocean]

Women in bikinis is not porn (imagine the economies that would destroyed if it was!). Women with nice features isn't porn. Women being seductive/playful isn't porn either.

Yes it is.

It's called 'Softcore' as opposed to 'hardcore' pornography.

See: Lads' Mags.

 

[Hagi]

Why are all anime boobs so insistent on being made of pudding?

OT: Don't really have much issue with the fanservice in Anime. Sometimes, alright quite often, it's silly yeah. But it's bearable.

Now those run-of-the-mill characters I don't even know how to describe since that would imply they have enough personality to warrant a description? Those make shows utterly and completely unwatchable. And sadly those seem vastly more common than fanservice.

 

[Paragon Fury]

There are a couple of things I've picked out to respond to, since there is a lot here.

1: Why would people watch "ecchi" instead of real porn? I can think of a few reasons;
- They like the women/men in anime/video games better than the ones you find in porn?
- They don't like the dirtiness and nastiness typically associated with and in porn?
- Its just easier to find and like "ecchi" than it is porn?

2: I'm taking issue more with the ignoring of the difference between what their suggesting and what actually IS. That and maybe the high chance of hypocrisy involved - I wonder how many of these people blasting anime/video games have the SI summer issue or Maxium just lying around (or the female equivalent of those things).

3: Some of you are missing the point; the question for "fanservice" isn't "Why put it in?" but rather "Why not?". Writers and artists know its and easy way to boost sales/viewing and if doesn't really detract or cause harm to the story, why not put it in? Its not like they don't know their audiences after all.

 

[KOMega]

EDIT: Here is one of the funniest (or saddest pending your view point) of HSD fan-service. Ladies and Gentlemen...I present to you...

Spoiler: Matrix Boobs

...yeah....that just happened. Feel free to take a minute to clean up all the brain from your mind exploding.

I find it hilarious. I see nothing wrong in making fun of boobs and physics.

If a piece of fiction is to be taken seriously it shouldn't have sexual content unless it is relevant to the plot, themes or characters in some way. If it's just fan-service without context it has no substance and thus, no point. The same applies to violence, or really anything that happens just for the sake of happening.

I think the reason people don't just watch porn is partially because of context. I mean the biggest amount of context in porn is "A man and a women walk into a bar. They fuck."
I don't normally watch harems or ecchi or much of any of that. But I imagine some form of context is provided, even if it's paper thin.

This, like almost every issue, is actually made of many small things, and not just one thing.

Part of it is that:

They think sexuality is a bad or unacceptable or indecent thing that should never be expressed in entertainment and thus, should only be displayed in its most hamfisted and inelegant form, solely for the utility of allowing people to easily get themselves off every once in a while.

In short, they have no imagination, at least when it comes to erotica. I've found that it's unfortunately not worth trying to argue with people who say that.

For some people it seems they either want no sexuality, or all of it (to the point of straight out sex) and people can't seem to grasp the in-between. I would like to think humans are a little more complex (just a little) so that anything that is remotely sexualized isn't there just to beat off to.

There is a video interview of the World Champion Masturbater World Champion Masturbater. Yes that is a thing. The world is weird. Anyways. you Can find the video on youtube yourself. Nothing NSFW in there imo, but just in case. Go find it yourself.

Somewhere in there he starts talking about hentai/animated porn in there (and I know the difference between that and ecchi, but hear me out.)
Somewhere in there he does say that he enjoys the animated porn more because it's a lot cleaner. To be fair, actual sex is kinda dirty. And not in the good way.

Also: I am not saying every person who watches ecchi/hentai believe or think all this. There are many reasons for each individual.