Why not topless ?

[Mr. Squirrel]

Yeah...I'm Dutch, so it's not really a problem here, women sunbathe topless a lot. Shame that most of them aren't all that hot though, at least not from what I've seen.

 

[EzraPound]

Exactly! Most of our so called "morals" are based in religious ideals.

Culture or religion is chicken or the egg. I believe women covered their breasts prior to the introduction of Christianity in Europe.

If it was legal do you think they would go topless. No. At least the majority wouldn't.

Yes, except by legalizing it you open the door to organic social change uninhibited by legal hurdles.

Well, when you put it that way...yeah.

Except you can't justify the continuity of oppression by saying that women have to wear shirts or else they'll be 'vulnerable.' This was used for a whole lots of things - voting will make women more 'vulnerable'; women need to be 'protected' from working - and it's just wrong.

 

[videonerd250]

Because if women walked round topless, everyone would stare at them, or pretend not to and nothing would get done. Except maybe getting larger memory cards for our phones.

While funny, might not be true. Men spend a large portion of their day trying to get to see women naked/topless, whether they realize they are doing it or not. If they aren't having to hunt around to find it, maybe they would get more stuff done, since they are wasting less time in the pursuit of boobies.

I've never met anyone...well maybe one or two...who spends the majority of their day hunting for boobs (except on weekends). Men have lives too, it's not always about getting girls naked. At the same time, we are only human in that if women all of a sudden started walking around without shirts and bras, we wouldn't get much done.

 

[EzraPound]

At the same time, we are only human in that if women all of a sudden started walking around without shirts and bras, we wouldn't get much done.

Any change would obviously move in step with society's capacity to adjust to it.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Get a classroom full of atheist 14 year olds, and then get a woman to teach them all topless. If you are going to claim it would all be fine then you are talking out of your ass. If you are going to say there might be a few difficulties then you can't blame religion for this one.

So because of prejudice that results in the objectification of women when they expose the same region of their body as men, it somehow makes sense not to legalize going topless? I don't follow - attractive women have a hard time teaching young males, anyway.

No. I mentioned nothing of legality nor anything to do with objectification.

I am merely pointing out the absurdity of blaming religion for this.

Its religion in general that prevents girls from being topless. Most Americans(Damn puritans) like to keep a false sense of purity and righteousness by claiming it corrupts the youth whenever they see women as they naturally are.

Funny that, I don't see any Atheists walking around naked, either.

This is quite possibly the worst thought-out attack on Religion I have ever seen, and that is saying something.

Either that, or I'm missing out on these Atheist sex-orgies and nude beaches, in which those free from the shackles of religion and the puritanic scolding, suddenly start to love getting naked.

You are making an uninformed and crude attack personal. It is a proven fact that America was formed by the Puritans. And it is a proven fact that the Puritans were HUGE prudes, not even allowing dancing and playing as children because it is something only the Devil would allow. Thus, it easily follows that American morals and laws are based upon a HUGELY prude point of view. Look at France. No one cares there if a woman sunbathes nude or topless. Ditto most of Europe. WE are the only ones that have a HUGE problem with it.

He wasn't making an attack. He was pointing out the absurdity of the post.

Europe is not made up of huge numbers of atheists. So the argument that this is religion based is frankly retarded. Communist U.S.S.R was atheist though, although I don't recall them all suddenly getting their kit off.

THINK about this for a minute people. Why is it frowned upon for women to sit in McDonalds with their boobs hanging out? If you are really going to blame the puritans of the 16th century then I would really like to try some of whatever it is you are drinking.

 

[Naterstein]

I for one love em and would hate to be desensitized to their appearance. Plus unsupported boobies will sag faster and no-one wants that.

 

[videonerd250]

Well, when you put it that way...yeah.

Except you can't justify the continuity of oppression by saying that women have to wear shirts or else they'll be 'vulnerable.' This was used for a whole lots of things - voting will make women more 'vulnerable'; women need to be 'protected' from working - and it's just wrong.

I don't know if the arguement is that it makes them "vulnerable," but that it is inappropriate. Still sexist, but society has made slight improvements in that women aren't seen as "vulnerable" as they used to.

At the same time, we are only human in that if women all of a sudden started walking around without shirts and bras, we wouldn't get much done.

Any change would obviously move in step with society's capacity to adjust to it.

Of course, but the other guy's arguement was that it wouldn't have any effect on men, I was correcting him.

 

[Helnurath]

Get a classroom full of atheist 14 year olds, and then get a woman to teach them all topless. If you are going to claim it would all be fine then you are talking out of your ass. If you are going to say there might be a few difficulties then you can't blame religion for this one.

So because of prejudice that results in the objectification of women when they expose the same region of their body as men, it somehow makes sense not to legalize going topless? I don't follow - attractive women have a hard time teaching young males, anyway.

No. I mentioned nothing of legality nor anything to do with objectification.

I am merely pointing out the absurdity of blaming religion for this.

Religion has everything to do with this, when a society blames women going topless or the exposure of a breast on television with the corruption of their children. If the greater part of the society feels this way or has these morals, they will vote to keep it illegal.

 

[The Lyre]

Look at France. No one cares there if a woman sunbathes nude or topless. Ditto most of Europe. WE are the only ones that have a HUGE problem with it.

Okay, you know that point about being crude and uninformed?

Europe is not one giant sex-party, we do care if people walk around naked, and just because it occurs more frequently here, that does not mean we see it as anything other than a bunch of exhibitionists craving attention.

I would understand the influence of Puritans, if this was not 2008, and the lynches hadn't stopped. The world no longer stones homosexuals or adulterers, Atheists are no longer burned at the stake, and the world has certainly moved on from the point in which Religion determines what, how, and when we do.

You cannot blame a religious movement from the 17-18th century for the majority of social views today.

Okay, some areas of America are far, far worse than others, but this thread is not about that, it is about;

all over the world

So yes, his point might be valid for parts of one country, but that doesn't mean that the French are a bunch of laid-back nymphos who are all perfectly okay with public nudity.

In the same way that the majority of Americans are not racist, intolerant biggots, the majority of Europeans are not immoral, sex-crazed party-animals...in fact, I feel silly even describing them as such.

I am aware that Christianity still has a huge influence in America, but the fanatical, intolerant extremists amongst Christianity do not.

 

[Helnurath]

The way Americans see breasts and the way Europeans see breasts are two very different things. Europeans dont feel that breasts are responsible for the corruption of their children.

 

[EzraPound]

No. I mentioned nothing of legality nor anything to do with objectification.

I am merely pointing out the absurdity of blaming religion for this.

It just doesn't make any sense, because you can assign social factors to religion. Still, I agree that people on The Escapist use organized religion as a scapegoat so they can feel like their hands are somehow clean as Atheists.

Of course, but the other guy's arguement was that it wouldn't have any effect on men, I was correcting him.

It wouldn't really have any effect on men, and that's a bad angle. Freeing back slaves showed patent disregard for white slaveowners' 'assets', but it was still the right thing to do.

I am aware that Christianity still has a huge influence in America, but the fanatical, intolerant extremists amongst Christianity do not.

Just google the Moral Majority. Intolerant extremists actually have more effect on American society today than they've had since before the American Revolution, which can be related to the spiritual revivalism of the post-WWII era (this is a fact: religious worship rates are up, after the Six Days' War secular models were rejected in the Middle East, Buddhism has grown in Japan, etc). Thinking the influence of Christianity in the U.S. has waned is a historic misconception - even when debates about slave ownership raged, they were almost all secular, and several of the Founding Fathers possessed open disdain for Christianity.

 

[Ago Iterum]

Well it really isn't that unusual (for both sexes to go topless) outside of the USA. You obviously haven't done a lot of travelling around Europe have you? Throughout much of europe there isn't a lot of difference between men and women going topless, and far less hassle about going completely nude. In Germany, for example, you'll see female office-workers sunbathing topless in the parks during their lunch-break, no special laws required. There's female toplessness in ads and billboards with no controversy. You need to remember that the US is by far the most sexually conservative of all the western countries - and this is from an Aussie, whose country is about equal 2nd most conservative along with the UK (both of which are FAR less concerned with nudity than the US - I can still remember the shocked look on the US tourists' face when they saw the kind of nudity that was uncontroversial in ordinary TV and billboards in Europe). Most of the Western world isn't quite as repressed as you guys.

Oh really? I agree that there are different laws and standards, but it's more of a privacy issue. In the UK for example - most people just aren't comfortable with exposing areas of their bodies, men and women alike. plus, the temperature's dropped to just above freezing.

In Germany things are different, and there is a higher degree of exposure and sexuality, but it would still be quite rare to find a naked woman in public, just through sheer embarressment. That doesn't make them repressed, it makes them normal. If someone was walking down the street naked, then they would have some serious trouble.

But normal human shyness just prevents too much exposure in a public place, and a woman's breasts are considered sexual. Look at the films and media - a man can be topless in a film of almost any certificate, but women can only be seen topless in 15s and 18s.

Agreed. I think a lot of you are missing one of the biggest factors in the prevention of public nudity here, embarrasment. On family holidays, who would want to see their parents and siblings naked? Or them to see you naked? Not me.

 

[Simalacrum]

Well it really isn't that unusual (for both sexes to go topless) outside of the USA. You obviously haven't done a lot of travelling around Europe have you? Throughout much of europe there isn't a lot of difference between men and women going topless, and far less hassle about going completely nude. In Germany, for example, you'll see female office-workers sunbathing topless in the parks during their lunch-break, no special laws required. There's female toplessness in ads and billboards with no controversy. You need to remember that the US is by far the most sexually conservative of all the western countries - and this is from an Aussie, whose country is about equal 2nd most conservative along with the UK (both of which are FAR less concerned with nudity than the US - I can still remember the shocked look on the US tourists' face when they saw the kind of nudity that was uncontroversial in ordinary TV and billboards in Europe). Most of the Western world isn't quite as repressed as you guys.

erm... did you happen to go to Amsterdam by any chance? i live in Britain, and its very very conservative... i might say even more so than the US! (although highly unlikely), and the rest of Europe, although they are admitedly more relaxed about nudity, doesn't exactly have naked people strolling all over the place... i've never seen nudity on bill boards and such either, either in Britain or Europe (i refuse to acknowledge Britain as part of Europe!!! cause... well, just cause!)

 

[Asymptote Angel]

because guys find girl's breasts more attractive then girls find guy's breasts

This sums it up nicely. They have the power of the Almighty Boob, and they wield it by hiding it. This is one area of power where there will never be "gender equality."