Why the Dragon Age 2 hate is GOOD

Recommended Videos

FieryTrainwreck

New member
Apr 16, 2010
1,968
0
0
I know a lot of people are tired of all the DA2 hate/debate, but I can't get enough of it. See, EA/Bioware, like a lot of modern pubs/devs, took a lot of things for granted with DA2. Bad things. Traditionally, they've gotten away with this shit. Seems like DA2, for whatever reason, is the straw that broke the camel's back. I'm thankful for that, and I'll try to explain why.

Let's get the most obvious bit out of the way; the game was horribly rushed. You can see it in the design shortcuts ("waves"...), the shamelessly reused assets, the inconsistent modeling (Bethany's hands...), and the overall lack of content compared to the first game. Whether you prefer the sequel or not, you can't really argue that DA1 had significantly more raw "stuff". Was that a product of an extra three years in development? Of course. But that's the point, isn't it? For whatever reason, publishers have been leaning on devs to finish projects unreasonably fast, and the end result is inferior games. I hope DA2 represents some actual fucking pushback on this issue. It'd be nice to send a very public and (hopefully) financial message to EA (and the like) that we want polished, fleshed-out products - not super-rushed sequels.

That brings me to my second point. Devs/pubs have this incessant need to expand their audience (aka sales), and the "best" way to accomplish this is through broadening the appeal of the product. This means changing it, and not always for the best. Frequently, it means removing whole aspects of the original title in order to garner a new fanbase - and relying on the unwavering loyalty of your existing fanbase, whom you expect to support your game based on name recognition and even nostalgia. And that's bullshit. If you're going to call something Dragon Age while removing a decent chunk of what defined the original game, you absolutely deserve a ton of hate. You listened to the board members who told you to keep the same IP while drastically altering the product because it's a "no risk" proposition for them. People who liked the first game will buy the second, and maybe some new people will, too. Win/win, right? Sure it is, if you endorse dishonesty as a policy.

TLDR version: if they're going to hijack IPs for mass consumption AND rush them out the door with no concern for quality, it's up to the community to call them on that shit. They do that stuff because it makes them more money. If a bunch of nasty word-of-mouth and user-reviews puts a big enough dent in their sales, there's a chance they might not pull that bs on their future projects. Even if you love DA2, you have to acknowledge that it represents some pretty negative trends in this industry. Flying in the face of those trends means more good games for all of us.

Remember when they tried to turn Cole of InFamous into a fucking frat boy? People went nuts and got them to change it back. We need more of that to keep the goddamn board members and focus groups out of our creative spaces.

So by all means, ***** away.
 

Saelune

Trump put kids in cages!
Legacy
Mar 8, 2011
8,411
16
23
I...completly agree.
The broadening audience part especcially. I cant stand when people who already dont like a game saying it should be a certain way, when the real fans like how it was. (Dynasty Warriors for example, I LIKE it being "the same" everytime)
 

Connor Barr

New member
Mar 2, 2011
2
0
0
I have to agree that it was streamlined, and that some things were changed for the worse. My main gripe is the inventory system. To draw in people who are too impatient to equip gear to every member of your party, they just make it so you can't, a la Mass Effect 2. I'd hate to see things like this continue as a trend.
 

Elamdri

New member
Nov 19, 2009
1,481
0
0
Saelune said:
the real fans like how it was.
What is a "real fan"

Is that opposed to say, an imaginary fan, that only lives in the dreams of developers?
 

Saelune

Trump put kids in cages!
Legacy
Mar 8, 2011
8,411
16
23
Elamdri said:
Saelune said:
the real fans like how it was.
What is a "real fan"

Is that opposed to say, an imaginary fan, that only lives in the dreams of developers?
Well, a real fan. Someone who actually LIKES it. If you dont like a game, then you are not a real fan. Maybe you play it for some reason, friends most likely, but you dont really like it. Im not talking about liking to the point of fanboy/girl, but that you like the game and would just want it to be better so you can like it more. I find when people suggest how to change a game they dont like to one they do, it would make more sense to play SOMETHING ELSE. Dont change the game I like as it was to some different game you probably wont even play just because you dont know when you dont like a style or genre. I dont like country music. I dont say how they could make it better, I just listen to something else.
 

Elamdri

New member
Nov 19, 2009
1,481
0
0
Saelune said:
Elamdri said:
Saelune said:
the real fans like how it was.
What is a "real fan"

Is that opposed to say, an imaginary fan, that only lives in the dreams of developers?
Well, a real fan. Someone who actually LIKES it. If you dont like a game, then you are not a real fan. Maybe you play it for some reason, friends most likely, but you dont really like it. Im not talking about liking to the point of fanboy/girl, but that you like the game and would just want it to be better so you can like it more. I find when people suggest how to change a game they dont like to one they do, it would make more sense to play SOMETHING ELSE. Dont change the game I like as it was to some different game you probably wont even play just because you dont know when you dont like a style or genre. I dont like country music. I dont say how they could make it better, I just listen to something else.
I think you're missing the point. If you are not a fan of the game, you're just not a fan. There's no such thing as a "Real Fan," there is just a fan or not a fan. There isn't some sort of fan+ status where you're like a normal fan, but better.
 

Saelune

Trump put kids in cages!
Legacy
Mar 8, 2011
8,411
16
23
Elamdri said:
Saelune said:
Elamdri said:
Saelune said:
the real fans like how it was.
What is a "real fan"

Is that opposed to say, an imaginary fan, that only lives in the dreams of developers?
Well, a real fan. Someone who actually LIKES it. If you dont like a game, then you are not a real fan. Maybe you play it for some reason, friends most likely, but you dont really like it. Im not talking about liking to the point of fanboy/girl, but that you like the game and would just want it to be better so you can like it more. I find when people suggest how to change a game they dont like to one they do, it would make more sense to play SOMETHING ELSE. Dont change the game I like as it was to some different game you probably wont even play just because you dont know when you dont like a style or genre. I dont like country music. I dont say how they could make it better, I just listen to something else.
I think you're missing the point. If you are not a fan of the game, you're just not a fan. There's no such thing as a "Real Fan," there is just a fan or not a fan. There isn't some sort of fan+ status where you're like a normal fan, but better.
Fine. Remove the word real from infront of fan. Point still stands. Really I mean by real fan as someone who is a fan, compaired to a fake fan being someone giving improvements for a game they dont even like.
So really, it is you who is missing the point, my point.
 

Throwitawaynow

New member
Aug 29, 2010
759
0
0
FieryTrainwreck said:
and the overall lack of content compared to the first game. Whether you prefer the sequel or not, you can't really argue that DA1 had significantly more raw "stuff".
I just wanted to say, for whatever reason I've spent probably 3x as much time playing DA2 then I did DA1. After DA1 I never wanted to play as a second class, but after a few hours of DA2 I made a warrior on a higher difficulty. Then 10 more hours and I made a rogue. I've since completed the game on all 3 classes.
 

Elamdri

New member
Nov 19, 2009
1,481
0
0
Saelune said:
Fine. Remove the word real from in front of fan. Point still stands. Really I mean by real fan as someone who is a fan, compared to a fake fan being someone giving improvements for a game they don't even like.
So really, it is you who is missing the point, my point.
1. I could care less about your point ;) I was just being a philosophical nazi and you tripped one of my buttons. Sorry.

2. To address your point anyway: Why is it that someone who doesn't enjoy something can't criticize something or offer suggestions for improvement? It's strange, (and I'm not picking on you here, this is indicitive of society as a whole) but for some reason, people who enjoy something have this bizarre belief that people who criticize what they enjoy have no right to do so. I mean, if you look at a song for example on Youtube, if you see someone who expresses displeasure at what the song is, instantly everyone else jumps on them and starts telling them to leave if they don't enjoy it. What's strange is that it makes no logical sense to exclude people who don't enjoy something from commenting on whatever it is they don't enjoy. What if they actually have a way to improve it? What if it turns out there way of thinking is better? What if it turns out that while you think you don' like their idea, in reality you would like it, you're just unwilling to give it a try? What if the people who dislike something outnumber the people who like it? What right does the minority have to suppress the will of the majority (Honestly this goes both ways, but it's a perfectly fair argument)?

Food for thought :D
 

Saelune

Trump put kids in cages!
Legacy
Mar 8, 2011
8,411
16
23
Elamdri said:
Saelune said:
Fine. Remove the word real from in front of fan. Point still stands. Really I mean by real fan as someone who is a fan, compared to a fake fan being someone giving improvements for a game they don't even like.
So really, it is you who is missing the point, my point.
1. I could care less about your point ;) I was just being a philosophical nazi and you tripped one of my buttons. Sorry.

2. To address your point anyway: Why is it that someone who doesn't enjoy something can't criticize something or offer suggestions for improvement? It's strange, (and I'm not picking on you here, this is indicitive of society as a whole) but for some reason, people who enjoy something have this bizarre belief that people who criticize what they enjoy have no right to do so. I mean, if you look at a song for example on Youtube, if you see someone who expresses displeasure at what the song is, instantly everyone else jumps on them and starts telling them to leave if they don't enjoy it. What's strange is that it makes no logical sense to exclude people who don't enjoy something from commenting on whatever it is they don't enjoy. What if they actually have a way to improve it? What if it turns out there way of thinking is better? What if it turns out that while you think you don' like their idea, in reality you would like it, you're just unwilling to give it a try? What if the people who dislike something outnumber the people who like it? What right does the minority have to suppress the will of the majority (Honestly this goes both ways, but it's a perfectly fair argument)?

Food for thought :D
Sorry, didnt catch that. I see alot of text, but no reason to read it, since you decided to be a jerk. Dont belittle my point then expect me to consider yours.
 

Haydyn

New member
Mar 27, 2009
976
0
0
This OP is a smart man. I am okay with DA2, but I was angry when I heard about the changes. I giggled when I saw how low the user ratings were, and to a degree still are. Designers need to know that they can't screw over fans for more fans. What are they gonna do? Come out with Dragon Age 3 and have it screw over fans of 1 and 2? Why even have sequels? Oh ya, because people are sheep enough to buy them. I was aware DA2 was going to be inferior in comparison to the original, but I still got it release day. I'm loving all the complaining. Dragon Age 2 is still an okay game, but it could have been a lot better. We need to send the message to developers.
 

octafish

New member
Apr 23, 2010
5,137
0
0
I just hope that EA/Bioware and other Publisher/Devs take note. These complaints aren't just for DA2, they are for games across the board. I've only played the demo of DA2, but these are concerns I have about games in general.
 

Sabiancym

New member
Aug 12, 2010
367
0
0
I agree. The second I played the Demo and saw what they did to this game I started voicing my opinion. There were people complaining about me complaining, but I never understood why. There are very few people who actually like this game better than the original, yet so many people who want to just praise Bioware for everything even if they know it's not very good.


I love the hate this game is getting. I think it's already significant enough to greatly impact not only Dragon Age 3, but also Mass Effect 3 and all other Bioware games. Hell, it might even cross developers and influence other games.

Bethesda: "Woah, did you see what happened to Bioware when they tried to release a crappy dumbed down rushed console sequel when the original was a deep classic PC RPG?? Let's make sure we don't do the same for Skyrim."


Oh and if you look at the sales numbers by going to vgchartz, you'll see that the hate is greatly affecting sales.


Take Mass Effect. when the first one came out, it sold 457,367 in the first two weeks in America.
When Mass Effect two came out it sold 833,094 in the first two weeks.

That's a whopping 82% Increase in sales for the sequel.

Dragon Age Origins sold 375,657 in the first two weeks
Dragon Age 2 has only sold 388727

That's only a 3.5% increase.



As a sequel, it's a failure. Sequels to major games should always sell better than the original by a big margin.
 

Elamdri

New member
Nov 19, 2009
1,481
0
0
Saelune said:
Elamdri said:
Saelune said:
Fine. Remove the word real from in front of fan. Point still stands. Really I mean by real fan as someone who is a fan, compared to a fake fan being someone giving improvements for a game they don't even like.
So really, it is you who is missing the point, my point.
1. I could care less about your point ;) I was just being a philosophical nazi and you tripped one of my buttons. Sorry.

2. To address your point anyway: Why is it that someone who doesn't enjoy something can't criticize something or offer suggestions for improvement? It's strange, (and I'm not picking on you here, this is indicitive of society as a whole) but for some reason, people who enjoy something have this bizarre belief that people who criticize what they enjoy have no right to do so. I mean, if you look at a song for example on Youtube, if you see someone who expresses displeasure at what the song is, instantly everyone else jumps on them and starts telling them to leave if they don't enjoy it. What's strange is that it makes no logical sense to exclude people who don't enjoy something from commenting on whatever it is they don't enjoy. What if they actually have a way to improve it? What if it turns out there way of thinking is better? What if it turns out that while you think you don' like their idea, in reality you would like it, you're just unwilling to give it a try? What if the people who dislike something outnumber the people who like it? What right does the minority have to suppress the will of the majority (Honestly this goes both ways, but it's a perfectly fair argument)?

Food for thought :D
Sorry, didnt catch that. I see alot of text, but no reason to read it, since you decided to be a jerk. Dont belittle my point then expect me to consider yours.
Dude, I'm teasing you, don't get all hot and bothered. I actually did read and digest your post, go back and read the wall of text.
 

Frotality

New member
Oct 25, 2010
982
0
0
i personally preferred when fans were absolutely un-pleasable, no amount of change or improvement was good enough, and thus every sequel added and improved upon existing gameplay elements as developers were actually driven to do so.

the grass is always greener of course, because irrational hate has been replaced with irrational praise and the complete rejection by the devs and fanboys of any small complaint. i was absoltely dumbfounded by the amount of praise ME2 got, not because it was a bad game, but because everything i or anyone else noted as a disappointment or step backwards resulted in a dozen people basically quoting something a dev said about why a certain feature was good and insulting me. the very fanbase itself was cracking down on any post, every non-bought off review, and every...EVERYTHING that wasnt a candy-coated glowing recommendation. and so who exactly can be blamed when ME3 is rushed out the door with half the content, less rpg elements than CoD multiplayer, and no real plot? the players, for giving bioware no initiative to improve upon anything.

its basic supply and demand; if we dont demand better products, we aint gonna get any. when you can see in retrospect how blinding hatred and outright insults from fans produced better sequels then we get now... then at the very least we need to stop with the blinding praise and outright fanboyism.
 

HapexIndustries

New member
Mar 8, 2011
190
0
0
I'm also glad as hell that people called shenanigans on this game (and, to a certain extent, the PC version of Crysis 2). Course, I didn't like the first game either, so... there's that.
 

Saelune

Trump put kids in cages!
Legacy
Mar 8, 2011
8,411
16
23
Elamdri said:
Saelune said:
Elamdri said:
Saelune said:
Fine. Remove the word real from in front of fan. Point still stands. Really I mean by real fan as someone who is a fan, compared to a fake fan being someone giving improvements for a game they don't even like.
So really, it is you who is missing the point, my point.
1. I could care less about your point ;) I was just being a philosophical nazi and you tripped one of my buttons. Sorry.

2. To address your point anyway: Why is it that someone who doesn't enjoy something can't criticize something or offer suggestions for improvement? It's strange, (and I'm not picking on you here, this is indicitive of society as a whole) but for some reason, people who enjoy something have this bizarre belief that people who criticize what they enjoy have no right to do so. I mean, if you look at a song for example on Youtube, if you see someone who expresses displeasure at what the song is, instantly everyone else jumps on them and starts telling them to leave if they don't enjoy it. What's strange is that it makes no logical sense to exclude people who don't enjoy something from commenting on whatever it is they don't enjoy. What if they actually have a way to improve it? What if it turns out there way of thinking is better? What if it turns out that while you think you don' like their idea, in reality you would like it, you're just unwilling to give it a try? What if the people who dislike something outnumber the people who like it? What right does the minority have to suppress the will of the majority (Honestly this goes both ways, but it's a perfectly fair argument)?

Food for thought :D
Sorry, didnt catch that. I see alot of text, but no reason to read it, since you decided to be a jerk. Dont belittle my point then expect me to consider yours.
Dude, I'm teasing you, don't get all hot and bothered. I actually did read and digest your post, go back and read the wall of text.
Girl, while I may be saying it badly, one thing Im trying to say is, those people may not be giving suggestions with the game's best interests at mind. Dynasty Warriors, people often say its the same boring thing and they should change it. But I LOVE the way it is, and people want them to remove what I love from my second favorite game series.
Maybe the best way to compare it is, imagine if someone criticized who you were, and said you should change this and that, because they dont like you. They want you to be something your not just for their own interests, compaired to a friend who may say things you should do, for your own sake.
 

Zedar0

Should probably make use of this
Aug 12, 2009
62
0
0
Elamdri said:
Saelune said:
Fine. Remove the word real from in front of fan. Point still stands. Really I mean by real fan as someone who is a fan, compared to a fake fan being someone giving improvements for a game they don't even like.
So really, it is you who is missing the point, my point.
1. I could care less about your point ;) I was just being a philosophical nazi and you tripped one of my buttons. Sorry.

2. To address your point anyway: Why is it that someone who doesn't enjoy something can't criticize something or offer suggestions for improvement? It's strange, (and I'm not picking on you here, this is indicitive of society as a whole) but for some reason, people who enjoy something have this bizarre belief that people who criticize what they enjoy have no right to do so. I mean, if you look at a song for example on Youtube, if you see someone who expresses displeasure at what the song is, instantly everyone else jumps on them and starts telling them to leave if they don't enjoy it. What's strange is that it makes no logical sense to exclude people who don't enjoy something from commenting on whatever it is they don't enjoy. What if they actually have a way to improve it? What if it turns out there way of thinking is better? What if it turns out that while you think you don' like their idea, in reality you would like it, you're just unwilling to give it a try? What if the people who dislike something outnumber the people who like it? What right does the minority have to suppress the will of the majority (Honestly this goes both ways, but it's a perfectly fair argument)?

Food for thought :D
From what I understand, she didn't mean that, to put it in terms of Dragon Age, only people who loved Dragon Age 1 should have had input on Dragon Age 2. I believe she's referring to what amounts to a Black Ops player complaining about Assassin's Creed because it's not modern and isn't an fps, or whatever--essentially someone who had no serious interest in the original because it wasn't to his tastes, but would play the next game in the series if it were homogenized to whatever extent. Expanding your audience that way sounds nice on paper, but by doing this, you also turn your back on the people who actually cared about and enjoyed the first game as it was, even if it wasn't perfect. Improvements are one thing (see AC2 versus AC1), but improving it in such a way that the game takes a different direction (DA2 compared to DA:O) is something altogether different, and I think that's what Saelune was getting at.
 

Traun

New member
Jan 31, 2009
659
0
0
Arontala said:
For the most part, I agree with you, but I still don't understand why people are complaining in places that are completely unrelated to Bioware. Go on the Bioware forums, or put it on your blog, not in totally random places.
The sad truth is that this will get locked and deleted in the Bioware forum. This is the "gaming section" of a "gaming magazine", where should he take it? Oprah?