Will Skyrim be remembered?

[King of the Sandbox]

...I can keep going, but my point is this... just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. I think most people's problem is, like Yahtzee said, that developers and publishers have been pushing the quick, one play-through and you're done, on rails, action extravaganza game to be the norm. So when a game that's more of an epic DM's toolbox like Skyrim comes along, they don't know what to do with themselves and blame the game in frustration.

See there it is again. Your fanboyism is bleeding through. It's not that people don't like it, it's just that they "don't get it" or "they don't understand". You're taking the exact same dismissive attitude that the people you're calling haters have.

Sorry, but I'm not succumbing to your cyclical argument. You wanted things, I gave you things. Itemized even.

You pretty much cancel out your own idea on the issue of avatar=fanboyness, evidenced further by the fact that you don't mention it here, or respond to my calling out of your own admission that it is a flawed practice in your previous post.

You've now resorted to baseless name calling, as I've given plenty of criticism to Skyrim as well, yet you keep using 'fanboy' in the derogatory manner.

Good day, sir. Enjoy your contrarianism.

Well you dismissed my whole argument about what image means in the world, even on the internet, pointing out that I said "whether or not it should". The thing is, even if it shouldn't matter(as you believe, and I'd be entirely willing to argue with you about how it should matter), that's how it IS with the world. That's why there's such sayings as "picture is worth a thousand words" or "dress for the job you want not the job you have". Even if it's flawed, which is your belief not mine, this is how it is. You have to accept that fact whether or not you believe that's how it should be.

As for your list, that in itself is a contradiction. Your ONE criticism to Skyrim was the agreement that it didn't bring anything new to the table that Oblivion didn't have, then you gave me a list which proclaimed all the new things skyrim did.

1: skyrim is more detailed, but I don't think we can say it's more immersive just because it's more detailed. It seems like there's just as much to do in oblivion and fallout 3 as there is to do in skyrim.
2: emotionally rewarding side quests. Emotion is incredibly subjective and very hard to do well. Since there's a lot of complaint on how hollow and wooden the other characters and quest-givers are, I doubt the majority of people feel that the quests are emotionally rewarding.
3 and 8: Again, the "feel" part means it's subjective. While you might feel like a mage or a werewolf, other people might not. And since a lot of people say the combat feels behind or outdated, it sounds like the majority opinion is that many don't really feel like a powerful mage. Don't know how people feel about the werewolf part.
5: Local flavor for items is more of a standard that's expected, like someone who can read. An RPG is supposed to have items that reflect the culture behind them. It's one of those things that should be derided if it's not there, but not really celebrated if it is.
6: These involve putting a lot of time into the game. If you have that time, then yes, it's awesome for those that can. But for those that don't have the time for this aspect of the game, it's irrelevant. So it's an improvement for those that have, not really a point against or for for those that don't.
7: I'm not sure how weather can be anything but part of the environment. Unless Oblivion had no weather, in which case I guess this ranks under improvement.
4 and 9: improvements I see no problem with, even Yahtzee pointed out 9.

Still, the bulk of your list is related to the environment. Which means that apparently what Oblivion was missing was more detail in the environment, and people's complaints about that game stem beyond just "the environment wasn't very detailed."

(SIGH)

...

Let me ask you one, simple question... do you think you will ever be convinced that I think this game is the greatest rpg I've ever played?

If no, then we're done here.

If yes, we're still done here.

Get the picture?

What it comes down to is opinions. Sure, they're subjective, and arbitrary, but it's how popularity is determined in the world. You want to be the herald of how the world works, i.e. image is everything? Well, accept it even when it doesn't work to your liking. The fact is that Skyrim is IMMENSELY popular. Nothing you say, no post you put up here, will change that.

It has problems, yes. Name a game and I'll rattle off a few it has after a quick google search, I'm sure, granted I haven't played it and know them firsthand. I might even find opposing opinions, shock and horror. Point is, I enjoy this game more than I have any other game in a looooooooooong time, including it's predeseccors. Heck, I've never even played any before Oblivion, and even it took me a while to warm up to. The fact that I'd heap such praise upon Skyrim should be evidence alone of how fantastic it truly is.

But regardless, I'm done here. Enjoy bickering about something you'll have to hear about forever.

 

[King of the Sandbox]

Anyone can plainly see, from the hordes of favorable reviews and praise, that Skyrim will be a benchmark for eastern RPG's for a while. It's not bolstering, it's simple fact.

If it really manages to bring the japanese RPG folks back on track, moving resources and attention away from Demon's Souls and Final Fantasy, it could be the inspiring spark to ignite a new wave of excellent Japcrap.

Secret of Mana, MOTHER, Chrono Trigger and all the others - you're not forgotten!

Well, Famitsu did give Skyrim it's first perfect score for an eastern game, so who knows? ^_^

I think your sense of direction might be a little off...
Check your compass

OT:
Who knows. Personally, it hasn't earned it in my eyes.

Derp. Yeah, wtf was I thinking. Thankfully it's a pretty obvious error. Not-so-thankfully, that makes it even more unforgivable to myself.

 

[irishda]

Put it this way... even Yahtzee has a woody for this game. I haven't even played the damn thing yet, and I can say it will have a long lasting legacy. Seriously, I can't think of a modern game that is so universally loved, from pre-production all the way to release and after.

The internet is gushing quite obscenely over this game.

Edit: Ah wait... Minecraft. Damn, this has been a good year for games!

Is it a woody for the game because of the game, or because he got to play something other than a shooter?

 

[irishda]

But regardless, I'm done here. Enjoy bickering about something you'll have to hear about forever.

Time will tell.

 

[King of the Sandbox]

Put it this way... even Yahtzee has a woody for this game. I haven't even played the damn thing yet, and I can say it will have a long lasting legacy. Seriously, I can't think of a modern game that is so universally loved, from pre-production all the way to release and after.

The internet is gushing quite obscenely over this game.

Edit: Ah wait... Minecraft. Damn, this has been a good year for games!

Is it a woody for the game because of the game, or because he got to play something other than a shooter?

I think both.

 

[Aprilgold]

Anyone can plainly see, from the hordes of favorable reviews and praise, that Skyrim will be a benchmark for eastern RPG's for a while. It's not bolstering, it's simple fact.

AHA, I caught someone red handed. You can't trust reviewers at all over the fact that I'm sure if they rated it lower then what it was, they would have hate mail sent to them for a lifetime.

Except I don't think people like Jim from The Jimquisition cares too much about what hate mail they get.

Also, if Adam Sessler gives it such praise, you can be sure it's not because he's worried about negative feedback. That guy is one of the greatest forces in the industry media today, as far as I'm concerned.

Jim and Adam Sessler... Your serious? Oh well, I can't convince Opinion, its almost impossible to give a low score to a very hyped game, due to hate mail, and basically being shamed by the industry, even at risk of not getting future review copies. Remember when the PR team said that anyone who gave their game a low score would not receive review copies in the future? Review scores = almost meaningless and review critism = non-existent.

 

[Wolfhowl the shadow lurker]

yeah it will morrwind was obivlion was skyrim will be

 

[robobengt]

Skyrim is as awesome as Morrowind became when the mods were taking over. Skyrim will rule everything as soon as the community gets their hands on the creation tools. You don't have to do something new to be remembered as a classic.

 

[Pearwood]

Yeah it'll be remembered. Even Daggerfall still has its fans and the damn thing hardly runs. Elder Scrolls games are just generally very memorable.

 

[King of the Sandbox]

Anyone can plainly see, from the hordes of favorable reviews and praise, that Skyrim will be a benchmark for eastern RPG's for a while. It's not bolstering, it's simple fact.

AHA, I caught someone red handed. You can't trust reviewers at all over the fact that I'm sure if they rated it lower then what it was, they would have hate mail sent to them for a lifetime.

Except I don't think people like Jim from The Jimquisition cares too much about what hate mail they get.

Also, if Adam Sessler gives it such praise, you can be sure it's not because he's worried about negative feedback. That guy is one of the greatest forces in the industry media today, as far as I'm concerned.

Jim and Adam Sessler... Your serious? Oh well, I can't convince Opinion, its almost impossible to give a low score to a very hyped game, due to hate mail, and basically being shamed by the industry, even at risk of not getting future review copies. Remember when the PR team said that anyone who gave their game a low score would not receive review copies in the future? Review scores = almost meaningless and review critism = non-existent.

One, I disapprove of your off the cuff disregard for Mr. Sessler. You're obviously not familiar with his opinions and efforts to improve the game industry and media. I would suggest looking up some of his independent opinions on his blog or on youtube.

Secondly, if I were a reviewer, and I gave a game a bad score, it'd deserve it, and I'd not be too worried about receiving advance copies of that dev anymore. And what about reviewers that don't put out reviews until after launch, rendering review copies pretty much moot?

And that last little figure in your post there, with the 'math'? If you looked it up, you'd see that Mr. Sessler, and I, agree with you, to a point.

I will give you kudos for recognizing that you can't force someone to change their opinion, though.

 

[hazabaza1]

Generally, if a game sells over one million copies, people remember it.
So, since Skyrim has sold over 3 million copies, three planets will remember it! Flawless logic!

 

[Athinira]

The characters, I can understand, but the bugs thing... seriously? Name 1 AAA game in the past 5 years that hasn't shipped with bugs. I dare you.

No software (except the absolutely simplest of simplest like a 'Hello World' program) is shipped without bugs. What matters is whether or not the bugs stand out, and in Bethesda games, they just happen to do.

Mind you, i applaud Skyrim for it's bugs not messing up the gameplay despite being so apparent, but by contrast, i only found very few bugs in say, Modern Warfare 3, and those were really hard to spot in the first place.

Skyrim is a huge improvement on Morrowind and Oblivion, but they still have a while to go.

Now, take into account the sheer GIRTH of content in Skyrim, weigh it against the bugs, and you'll barely see the scales tip at all.

Skyrim doesn't have as much content as people applaud it for. It has a lot of exploration with the chance of random encounters (who aren't particularly interesting in the first place, fight one pack of wolves or bandits, fought them all). That's it.

Mind you, I'm not saying it has little or average content. Skyrim does have a lot of content, but not even close to as much as people credit it for.

In fact, even Baldur's Gate 2 had at least as much content. Unlike Skyrim, they just didn't pad it out with exploration and traveling. There is a reason the game takes up less than 6 gigs of space in the first place compared to the 12-14 GB you find in games like Modern Warfare and BF3.

Most problems I do hear about are from the PC side of things, (PS3 Slowdown and backwards dragons excepted) but that's to be expected with any game of this magnitude on a platform that's as variable as snowflakes.

Now you are just making lousy excuses. Those are actually the kind of bugs you would have expected them to solve DURING the testing phase since they are much more easy to reproduce.

The Xbox 360 saves disappearing is excusable because they seem to have real problems tracking them down. The slowdowns, not so much.

But the point is, should bugs rule it out as a great game?

No, because they improved a lot upon it.

They shouldn't, however, be 'ignored' or 'dismissed' to the point that you're doing it.

It's a great game, and i won't say the praise it gets is undeserved, but i wouldn't call it a benchmark as long as they have so many things to fix. Baldur's Gate is still the benchmark for which i hold up RPG's, because unlike Skyrim it still manages to do quite a few things better, most apparently having proper PACING with little to no gameplay-padding and an inventory-system that didn't make me want to puke. I feel it's appropriate to quote Yahtzee here when he said that his biggest problem in Skyrim was finding vendors who still had money left so he could sell to them, because ironically that was also one of my biggest problems.

 

[King of the Sandbox]

-maaaaassssiiiive snip-

It's a great game, and i won't say the praise it gets is undeserved, but i wouldn't call it a benchmark as long as they have so many things to fix. Baldur's Gate is still the benchmark for which i hold up RPG's, because unlike Skyrim it still manages to do quite a few things better, most apparently having proper PACING with little to no gameplay-padding.

Perhaps my perception of the bugs/glitches isn't isn't as tinted as others, as I've not had any real ones to speak of in my 155+hours of gameplay.

/shrug

And I'm there with ya with Baldur's Gate 2. My second favorite rpg of all time (now). The only things that give Skyrim the edge over it, to me, are the dynamic encounters (Oh some angry cave bears!... oh, they're being hunted by hunters!... oh and look a dragon wants to play too!) and the presentation (I was one of the people that liked the orginal Fallouts, and was pleased to see their world finally rendered in 3d in the sequels). Oh, and the fact that the thing that makes you 'the one' in Skyrim gives you much funner powers. That's right... funner.

 

[white_salad]

It will be remembered for a while. It's a great example of an open world rpg, but it's not a great example of a video game. It's not revolutionary in the entire video game world, but in western rpg's I believe it will be remembered for quite some time. Just like all Eldar Scrolls Games.

 

[Athinira]

Oh, and the fact that the thing that makes you 'the one' in Skyrim gives you much funner powers. That's right... funner.

Really? Because i found the combat in Skyrim monotonous no matter what i played, be it mage, archer or melee fighter. It all played almost the same to me, and there wasn't much challenge involved except chugging health and mana potions against the more powerful enemies. In fact, the most challenge i found in Skyrims combat was when playing as a melee class with the capability of blocking, which made the gameplay somewhat interesting. Only problem here is that i wanted to roleplay a mage since I'm bored of the melee-role from other RPG's, and as a mage, your job is to simply hold down both mouse buttons and spew fire on everything around you until it dies or you run out of mana.

No thank you, I'll take Baldur's Gate's combat system that actually involves some strategy and tactics. Where you have to plan around the encounter, have to lower a mages defenses to be able to kill him, where you might consider pre-buffing before combat to counter specific enemies and their abilities and where you can actually use clever tactics against stronger enemies to try and defeat them (to the point of directly abusing the characteristics of certain spells in a clever way). Skyrim so far has only challenged my ability to block and backpedal, which i (sorry to say it) don't consider interesting gameplay.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

It will be remembered on PC because of the mods. People still play Morrowind and Oblivion because of the awesome mods, so as soon as the CK is out, you can bet that mods will make sure this game stays fresh for years.

 

[King of the Sandbox]

Oh, and the fact that the thing that makes you 'the one' in Skyrim gives you much funner powers. That's right... funner.

Really? Because i found the combat in Skyrim monotonous no matter what i played, be it mage, archer or melee fighter. It all played the same to me, and there wasn't much challenge involved except chugging health and mana potions against the more powerful enemies. In fact, the most challenge i found in Skyrims combat was when playing as a melee class with the capability of blocking, which made the gameplay somewhat interesting. Only problem here is that i wanted to roleplay a mage since I'm bored of the melee-role from other RPG's, and as a mage, your job is to simply hold down both mouse buttons and spew fire on everything around you until it runs out of mana.

No thank you, I'll take Baldur's Gate's combat system that actually involves some strategy and tactics. Where you have to plan around the encounter, have to lower a mages defenses to be able to kill him, where you might consider pre-buffing before combat to counter specific enemies and their abilities and where you can actually use clever tactics against stronger enemies to try and defeat them (to the point of directly abusing the characteristics of certain spells in a clever way). Skyrim so far has only challenged my ability to block and backpedal.

I disagree. Many times I've had to reload a save and go in with a different strategy, which reminded my greatly of Baldur's Gate 2.

Like the time a Forsworn mage just kept one shotting me with ice spikes. After a few tries of berserker/kamikazee tactics, I thought better and started laying rune traps around corners I could lead him around. I could summon minions (atrinochs, familairs, undead) to draw fire while I tested which of my offensive spells was most effective. I could lace an arrow with poison and try and stealth snipe him with my bow.

So, yeah, like I said, I had no problem with that in Skyrim. /shrugs