Will we ever get a super hero movie where the villain wins at the end?

[krazykidd]

Super hero movies are all the rage at the moment, for good reason. Marvel has been making fastastic super hero movies of late, ( ranging from OK at worst and amazing at best).DC Had a couple of hits and a couple of misses, depending on who you ask.

One thing all the movies have in common is that the hero(s) always win at the end .

Now , i understand why people like superheros to win . People love seeing their favorite characters rip shit up, overcome all odds and come or victorious. But to me at least that makes these films ( and most films rather) highly predictable and loses all tension. Why would i get all riled up if i know beforehand , the protagonist(s) won't fail? How many times does a bomb ( or whatever) get's stopped with 2 seconds left on the clock before it get's stale and repetitive? Sure a hero may lose something or someone in the process , but ultimately the day is saved thanks to the power puff girls our hero?

So my question is : do you think we will ever get a super hero movie where the villain wins at the end?

As a bonus question: would you like to see the villain win sometimes in super hero movies?

Bonus question vol.2 : are there any comic book series where the villain ultimately wins? And if so do you think those series would work well as movies?

Thank you for you're time.

 

[kingofkumquats]

I could see it happening, but as a set up for a sequel to raise the stakes. Like, Hawkeye (probably) dies at the end of an Avengers movie, the rest are scattered and broken. The villain sits upon his throne, having succeeded in his goal. All hope is seemingly lost, etc, etc. Then in the next one the heroes come back and defeat this villain. I would like to see this happen, as it would give the villain a little more time to shine, which is really my only complaint about Marvel movies right now.

 

[krazykidd]

What, like Thor 2?

Words words words, this is a full-length post, honest, words words words.

The villain in thor 2 wasn't Loki... That was more like a side action.

Edit: and loki sure as hell didn't beat Thor.

 

[Remus]

Watchmen. NYC got exploded, Rorschach was splattered, and world peace spread because kaboom. If only RL worked that way. Sure we stopped a war in a similar fashion but that didn't exactly last.

 

[EternallyBored]

Comic book villains generally don't win in the movies because anything other than the street-level villains and c/d list villains are generally of the omnicidal/megalomaniacal variety, so allowing them to win either gets the entire planet killed or conquered, or at the very least, ends up with the hero dying, which kind of kills any shot at a franchise. The marvel movies may be able to kill off a hero or two because they've set up so many in a shared universe.

Comic books let the villain win sometimes because the shared universe generally means that some other hero will stop them at some point, or they reset the whole timeline anyway with time travel or dimensional wedgies (see any crisis event from DC), or they retcon the whole thing out of existence, or it's all part of a spinoff series that doesn't effect the mainline continuity. It's not as easy with movies because you can't cheaply make a spinoff series dedicated solely to a "What-if?" scenario, and allowing the villain to win in the more epic fights pretty much ends the entire series right then and there.

The lower power villains run into the problem of, if they win, then why the hell should we believe that the heroes can stop the planetary, or cosmic level enemies.

The closest a superhero movie is ever likely to get to letting the villain win is the temporary setback at the end of a single movie, and that's not really the villain winning, that's just dragging the conflict out over multiple movies. Like the end of Thor 2, Loki basically gets everything he wants, and secretly controls Asgard, but he can't really win the final battle in the upcoming movies, otherwise it destroys the entire MCU because Loki winning means the heros are all dead and everyone else is enslaved.

 

[Samurai Silhouette]

Wasn't Mastermind like that? The main character was a bad guy that wins in the end.

 

[Scarim Coral]

Probably but it won't be from Marvel. I don't know of an example but it's safe to say that there are comics out there that the villain win.

 

[Hero of Lime]

If they do that, it would have to be the middle of a larger story, like Empire Strikes Back for example. The good guys are on the run, defeated with low morale, and the bad guys have the upper hand. So I could see a movie ending like that. Otherwise, I doubt we would see super villains totally win, mainly because that would mean all the heroes are dead, and the bad guy conquered the world.

 

[fix-the-spade]

Second for Watchmen.

Bad guy not only achieves his plan, but gets away with it except for his conscience, which for a man like Veidt may be a fate worse than getting caught.

The Joker wins in the Dark Knight too.

He breaks Harvey, he turns the world against Batman. Even in DK:R he has still won, because Harvey's legacy is destroyed, the Batman may be restored, but in doing so Harvery Dent and Gordon's image are shattered.

 

[higgs20]

well that wouldn't really make it a super hero movie. it would be a super villan movie with superheros in it.

also Thor 2? the watchmen? they do exist.

 

[krazykidd]

Second for Watchmen.

Bad guy not only achieves his plan, but gets away with it except for his conscience, which for a man like Veidt may be a fate worse than getting caught.

The Joker wins in the Dark Knight too.

He breaks Harvey, he turns the world against Batman. Even in DK:R he has still won, because Harvey's legacy is destroyed, the Batman may be restored, but in doing so Harvery Dent and Gordon's image are shattered.

I really don't know if watchman counts. I mean he achieved world peace, that doesn't sound very villainous. I think in this game the ends justifies the means. Sure an entire city was leveled, but all war ceased. It's a pretty grey area if you ask me. I read that graphic novel, it was really good. Pretty damn dark to boot.

Edit: i never really though of that batman thing though. That is pretty interesting. I have to rewarch those with that in mind.

well that wouldn't really make it a super hero movie. it would be a super villan movie with superheros in it.

also Thor 2? the watchmen? they do exist.

We'll see in Thor 3 if loki actually accomplishes anything. He really didn't triumph over anyone.

 

[themyrmidon]

As others have said, there's Watchmen, The Dark Knight, and possibly Loki in Thor 2.

But I agree with the OP. I want to see Marvel pull a Rocky/Rocky 2, having the hero lose in the first movie and he and/or his friend/replacement take back control in the second. Sort of like if TDKR was split into 2 movies.

 

[krazykidd]

Well I dunno if RObocop counts as a Superhero but yeah... the bad guys technically won in that film.

Otherwise...not really. It sorta bum out the audience and make them less likely to see the sequel.

You really think no one would enjoy a movie , where the villain conquers the world and kills the protagonist? I mean sure it's kinda dark, but with all the happy end and bitter sweet end, i would think people would enjoy something different and possibly unexpected. And ,Have it be canon and definate. You don't think? Edit: Of course it would have to be well written of course. Or maybe even forshadowed.

It works for horror movies ( and rarely chick flics) , why couldn't it bleed out into other genres?

 

[Diddy_Mao]

I don't think we're too likely to see it happen in a Marvel/Disney flick. WB/DC might pull it off as part of a longer storyline but I wouldn't hold my breath for a story line with Lex Luthor triumphant.

The only way I can see either of the big 2 pulling it off is to make a film or series based around the Thunderbolts or Suicide Squad.

 

[Mahorfeus]

IIRC, in Watchmen (the comic at least), Rorschach had made sure to put his journal, which contained most of the nitty gritty details, into circulation before the finale. Suggesting that in time, the peace built on a lie that Ozymandias strived to create would eventually be shattered.

As for the future... well, to be honest I was kind of expecting Marvel to pull that move for the Avengers 3. With the Infinity Stones, Thanos is kind of being set up as this all-powerful big bad. With so much build up, it would have to be a long-ass movie to plausibly portray his rise and fall. I'd prefer a two-parter in which he gets the gems and whoops the Avenger's ass in part one, before being taken down in part two.

 

[Supdupadog]

There is Watchmen. Sorta. Kinda. Not really.

I mean the whole point was that Ozy's bad thing saved the world and "the good guys" ultimately where useless and even a hindrance.

Calling bullcrap on all this super hero morality and romanticism was the reason Watchmen exists.

 

[ExDeath730]

Like some people hava already pointed out...Both in Watchmen and in The Dark Knight the vilains won in the end. They were the ones who achieved their goals, the only joker plan that fizzled was the one with the boats, and it wasn't because of Batman.

With my theory that they're probably going to go the "Winter Soldier/Falcon" becomes "Captain America" route in the movies, i think Steve will die in the next one, probably gunned down by Crossbones like it happened in the HQs, so...Yeah, we can have another one of those in our hands.

And there is also Loki, but in Thor 2, the only one who lost was Odin, both brothers got what they wished in the end. So...Technical draw?

 

[Dalisclock]

IIRC, in Watchmen (the comic at least), Rorschach had made sure to put his journal, which contained most of the nitty gritty details, into circulation before the finale. Suggesting that in time, the peace built on a lie that Ozymandias strived to create would eventually be shattered.

Maybe. It's not even established the paper ran it, or if it would gain any traction outside of right wing circles if it did.

Then again, I don't think it matters in the long run. To use the closet convenient metaphor, 9/11 brought Americans together for a little while. It didn't last. It's not hard to believe the Soviets and the US wouldn't be back to being bitter enemies once no more attacks from the Space Squid/Dr. Manhattan occurred after a couple months/years.