Woman murdered for rejecting a man, another gets her throat slashed for the same.

[Bara_no_Hime]

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/10/mother_of_three_killed_in_detroit_after_rejecting_a_man_s_advances.html

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/10/woman_s_throat_slashed_in_queens_after_turning_down_date.html?wpisrc=mostpopular

Holy shit.

Are people reading these articles? The quote was entirely justified.

I don't even know what else to say about this.

 

[mad825]

All I have going through my head is the saying 'A mans worst fear is being laughed at - a woman's worst fear is being murdered'

Yes because men don't murder other men. FFS, even homosexuals rape each other.

Get over yourself.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Read again what I wrote because that's what I was saying at the first place...

Such a campaign is by definition an attack on the reasons as to why victims don't report crimes committed against them.

EDIT: I will clarify further:

Such a campaign is by default aimed at victims, future victims and the family of victims that don't report crimes.

Pointing out to the above the reasons as to why unreported crimes should be reported is not an attack on the victims but on the unsocial behavior behind the non reporting of crimes.

I might have misread you there.

Are you talking about pressuring victims to come forward, or addressing the problems with the justice system (et al) that encourage them not to?

Domestic disputes escalating into violence is pretty common gender-regardless, and statistically the probability of a man being the murderer or the one committing the battery appear to be basically a coin-flip in real terms, though there are some enforcement issues where women are more likely to get actual help from the cops with the problem.

Er, no, domestic violence (in a vague, nebulous way) might be fairly even, but it's predominantly women who are hospitalised or killed.

Reducing it to "entitlement" and "rape culture" and all the popular pop phrases

...

We keep telling men the world is theirs, the power is theirs, and for the vast majority of men (and an increasing number, given economic conditions), that is a lie. A lie that is told every day.

You seem to be describing entitlement (and perhaps, to an extent, rape culture) there.

EDIT: I tend to agree with you on that, those are real issues that need to be addressed, but that's a strong overlap with what people complaining about entitlement and rape culture keep saying needs to be addressed.

 

[dragoongfa]

Read again what I wrote because that's what I was saying at the first place...

Such a campaign is by definition an attack on the reasons as to why victims don't report crimes committed against them.

EDIT: I will clarify further:

Such a campaign is by default aimed at victims, future victims and the family of victims that don't report crimes.

Pointing out to the above the reasons as to why unreported crimes should be reported is not an attack on the victims but on the unsocial behavior behind the non reporting of crimes.

I might have misread you there.

Are you talking about pressuring victims to come forward, or addressing the problems with the justice system (et al) that encourage them not to?

Let me put it like this:

The later will have to happen sooner rather than later, heaven forbid the Justice system in Greece needs a reform for decades and it looks like the US system as well to a lesser degree. It must be part of such campaign in order to show some good will,

The former however is complicated. It is so because the reasons as to why the victims don't come forward are both sociological and personal, the sociological parts can be addressed without having to address the victim but the main reasons as to why people don't come forward are always personal.

In this case the victim must be addressed as well, in a polite and properly researched manner that will point out that not reporting a crime when it happens is like condoning the crime to happen again.

@Blow_Pop

That's shitty and I agree that it is the wrong behavior, especially if it is prevalent among the police department in your area. Such behavior must be combated with proper police procedures and all that.

However such behavior must not stop people from going up to the police and report a crime. For me it's a two way street in this sense:

The police must adhere to their standards and citizens must report crimes committed so the police can do their job properly.

 

[HalfTangible]

All I have going through my head is the saying 'A mans worst fear is being laughed at - a woman's worst fear is being murdered'

This saying is stupid, belittling to EVERYONE involved, and inaccurate.

My worst fear is that I will wake up one day to find that everyone and everything I ever thought I knew was, in fact, a lie and that I had made it all up in an attempt to keep myself from knowing that I'm actually a serial killer in an insane asylum.

My second is that a woman will accuse me of raping her child thereby destroying my life, livelihood and any chance at a happy life.

My third is that I will be forced to violate my self-imposed oath of celibacy, dooming me to burn for all eternity in the fiery pits of hell.

My fourth is dieing before completing a novel. Fifth is that I'll commit suicide, then comes wasps, needles, and drowning.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

All I have going through my head is the saying 'A mans worst fear is being laughed at - a woman's worst fear is being murdered'

This saying is stupid, belittling to EVERYONE involved, and inaccurate.

My worst fear is that I will wake up one day to find that everyone and everything I ever thought I knew was, in fact, a lie and that I had made it all up in an attempt to keep myself from knowing that I'm actually a serial killer in an insane asylum.

My second is that a woman will accuse me of raping her child thereby destroying my life, livelihood and any chance at a happy life.

My third is that I will be forced to violate my self-imposed oath of celibacy, dooming me to burn for all eternity in the fiery pits of hell.

My fourth is dieing before completing a novel. Fifth is that I'll commit suicide, then comes wasps, needles, and drowning.

How is this " belittling"? I have been attacked my multiple men, have been stalked by men, Have had to put a man in prison for actually trying to kill me and the only reason I am here now is my neighbor stopped him and was stabbed in the process. Women fear these things because of our experiences. The reason women fear this is because this is not some thing you read about on the news, most of us have been attacked by men or has had someone close to us who has. Of course I am afraid for myself and others due to these things. I was violently raped, my best friend was raped, my sister was raped, my grandmother was raped, ALL by different men... this is not some uncommon thing at all is the problem. It is very scary telling a guy "No" because of how many guys respond when you do. Trying to make them understand that you do not want relations with them without them becoming angry is often difficult to do.

I am trying to understand why you think it would belittling to admit that I have nightmares about being attacked now due to events that happened. Why would saying that is your worst fear be belittling?

 

[Thaluikhain]

All I have going through my head is the saying 'A mans worst fear is being laughed at - a woman's worst fear is being murdered'

This saying is stupid, belittling to EVERYONE involved, and inaccurate.

My worst fear is that I will wake up one day to find that everyone and everything I ever thought I knew was, in fact, a lie and that I had made it all up in an attempt to keep myself from knowing that I'm actually a serial killer in an insane asylum.

My second is that a woman will accuse me of raping her child thereby destroying my life, livelihood and any chance at a happy life.

My third is that I will be forced to violate my self-imposed oath of celibacy, dooming me to burn for all eternity in the fiery pits of hell.

My fourth is dieing before completing a novel. Fifth is that I'll commit suicide, then comes wasps, needles, and drowning.

The saying has been clarified several times already in this thread.

It isn't about fears in general, it's about what men fear about women, and about what women fear about men.

 

[RandV80]

I have no problem with the Margarette Atwood thing. With men being the more physically dominant sex of our species, I suspect it's more of a primal instinct thing. An instinct that both sexes can feel when a person(s) could potentially dominate you and cause physical harm, but the 'danger' bar is just set that much lower for the average woman.

Another thing to consider, while I take some personal offense to this sort of label (man=dangerous potential rapist or whatever) being slapped on men in general, one should keep in mind that with the rate we mix & mingle before settling down in today's society every woman has a reasonable chance of coming across a bad apple. I have no idea what the actual numbers may be but let me make up some bad maths. Say 1 in 50 guys are scumbags who will get aggressive if a woman turns them down. On the other side of the spectrum, the average girl will interact an average of 10 guys before settling on a partner. By a general law of averages you know have a statistic of 20% of women who've experience some form of trauma caused by some scumbag male, enough to pass the horror story on and spread the fear around the entire gender.

Like I said I'm not sure what the actual numbers may be, but it's not hard to see why Margaret Atwood & many other females would have this 'fear'.

 

[Thaluikhain]

These people don't do these things because they're men, they do it because they're freaking psychopaths.

Citation needed.

Now, certainly, there's nothing inherently evil about men, but to say that anyone that does something we'd judge evil must be a psychopath is just avoiding looking at the issue. The rates of such thing greatly vary depending on culture.

Saying that the people who do bad things must be psychopaths, and given that men are greatly over-represented in perpetrators...that implies things about men.

 

[Ticklefist]

Nevermind. Comment removed. I said all I wanted to say on this topic earlier.

 

[Fulbert]

That conclusion is pretty terrible when you consider the fact that men usually make up about 70 to 80 percent of homicide victims worldwide...

That conclusion is a reference to a quote from writer Margret Atwood when she was talking about what men fear from women vs what women fear from men. So its pretty relevant to the discussion.

I don't get it. What I read is that if one person draws incorrect conclusions than it's OK to quote that as conclusions since you are not actually the one making it?

As I said, that conclusion disturbs me. What has happened is terrible, and those people are not fit to be in general society to say the least, but that conclusion has no merits.

What you are trying to do is to trivialise women's plight by likening their oppression to men's problems and trying to argue they are equal in gravity. That is misogynist.

 

[Nikolaz72]

Humans kill humans for stupid reasons.

Story as old as humanity, just look at Ukraine, Putin gets thousands killed because he thinks his genitalia is small.

 

[Saetha]

For instance, I went to the Bureau of Justice Statistics [http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=dcdetail&iid=245] site that the article about male rape which claimed proved 38% of sexual assault victims in 2012 was based on, but I can't actually find any statistics on the site that specific.

Uh, actually, the BJS states that the last data available was from 2012, while the data the study quotes is from 2013 (It says this information was uncovered last year, and that article was posted in 2014) So they probably just haven't released the information in a report yet. Don't these things usually trail two years behind?

Which seems rather strange. I'm also seeing, from what little actual information being revealed about this, is that these are overwhelming male on male cases, in fact, one website I found [http://www.oneinfourusa.org/statistics.php] cites 98.1% of women and 93% of men were raped by men.

To which I ask - how do they define rape? If it's defined as forced penetration, than of course it'll show up as mostly men who do it. Women don't exactly have much to penetrate with, and they don't gain much pleasure themselves from doing so. Men, on the other hand...

I also find it telling that these studies include prison inmate rape in order to inflate their numbers. I say inflate the numbers because men are incarcerated at about an 11x higher rate [http://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/genderinc.html] than women. There are also, reportedly, 3000 more rapes/sexual assaults [http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb/21/us-more-men-raped-than-women] occurring in prisons than there are among the general public.

How can you know this when you yourself say that you can't find the information? You don't know how they got their numbers, much less if they counted men in prison.

9/10ths of the victims among the general populous are said to be girls/women. But, even with similar rape percentages between male and female inmates, that still means there's 11x more men being raped in prison than women. There you go, you now have equal numbers of men being raped verses women because you included prison rape. However, if women were incarcerated at the same rate as men, if there was a roughly equal population of women in prison as men, as there is among the general public, those numbers would go right back to overwhelmingly women being raped.

Okay? Uh, first of all - sources. Second of all, does it matter what the rate would be if this or that were true? It doesn't change the fact that there are many times more men who are a victim of this than women, and thus, it's a far more serious problem for them.

If I were ten times better at math than I am now, I could be the next Stephen Hawking. That doesn't mean that I should be treated like a math genius, because if things were different, than I would be. Same goes here - all you're saying is that things would be different if things were different. But they're not, so...?

Interesting findings about the study about teenagers and sexual assault as well, and more skewed results:

"But when you get into coercive and attempted rape, it does seem to differ"?with males committing 75 percent of these crimes, compared with 25 percent committed by females.

But they also found that completed rape is predominantly a male crime?a finding that is in line with general attitudes about rape, according to Sharmili Majmudar of Chicago-based Rape Victim Advocates, which was not associated with the study.

"Almost all of what we know of sexual violence by teens against teens and among adults is fairly consistent in naming men as the most likely to be the perpetrator" of completed rape, Majmudar said.

So while females don't commit rape at the same rates as males, they are just as likely to coerce a male partner into foresexual contact.

So, basically, the study finds that teenaged girls are more likely to kiss or touch (not sexually assault, mind, just touch), but teenaged boys are still overwhelmingly more likely to commit actual rape or sexual assault. That "foresexual (or presexual) contact" is lumped in with actual sexual assault and rape as "sexual violence" seems fairly fishy.

Does the study define the contact as such, or are you just minimizing it to defend your opinion? I guess it's a-okay for a man to walk up to a woman, forcibly kiss her, grope her breasts and paw at her clothing, since that's "just touching." Not at all traumatizing either. And regardless, the fact that the study shows sexual violence is something both genders perpetrate on roughly equal terms still undermines the idea of "rape culture," and that men abuse and objectify women because of entitlement or whatever. Otherwise women wouldn't do it either.

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf
Now, onto a study I can actually find in full [http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf] from 2011. It tells a far different story from the unverifiable findings claimed:

Nearly 1 in 5 women (18.3%) and 1 in 71 men (1.4%) in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives, including completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, or alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration.

Approximately 1 in 21 men (4.8%) reported that they were made to penetrate someone else during their lifetime; most men who were made to penetrate someone else reported that the perpetrator was either an intimate partner (44.8%) or an acquaintance (44.7%).

Aaah, there's the study. Thanks for bringing it up. Now, yes, the CDC does report 1 in 21 men as being made to penetrate... but, if you look at the raw data, you'll see something fishy. Please direct your attention to Table 2.2 on page 19:

For "Made to Penetrate - lifetime" it puts the number at about 5.4 million. Why that's "only" a fourth of the rate that women get raped at! Clearly it doesn't matter as much, so let's just carry on our merry way...

...except... for 2010 alone it reported 1.2 million instances of men being made to penetrate. In a single year. Well, that's got to be wrong, right? How can only a fifth of the lifetime incidents have taken place in a single year?

That don't seem fishy at all to you?Did men being forced to penetrate only get invented in the last five years? Was 2010 some massive, unexplained spike in the rate? Granted, I don't where that line leads from there, but it certainly seems to mean that men, for whatever reason, are less likely to report lifetime rape - but for the record, the number of men that year who reported they were forced to penetrate is only slightly smaller than the number of women who reported such. So, one can infer that in a generation, the lifetime stat for men and women will be roughly equal - it'll have to be, considering the yearly rate is roughly equal. Unless you can come up with a reason for why there's such a discrepancy.

Needless to say, there seems to be a lot of conflicting information out there depending on where you look. Either way, it seems the reports you are citing are inflating their numbers by including statistics such as prison inmate rape and presexual contact.

You still have no evidence of the first, only assumptions. And again, the other study was explicit about dealing with sexual violence.

Now, we can talk about rape not being defined as being forced to penetrate, but you know what? The country has already had that discussion, and federal laws have already been changed to included forced to penetrate as rape. This is a legitimate wrong that is being addressed.

No. No, it isn't. The only thing that was changed, was that the definiton of rape used to specifically say "carnal knowledge of the female body." As in, only women can be raped. The definition has thrown out the blatant gender bias, but nothing else.

Source: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/recent-program-updates/new-rape-definition-frequently-asked-questions

Snipped for length

I don't approve of discussion about women and about their rights being shouted down with "but TEH MENZ?" But when inflammatory comments like that Atwood quote are made, people will drag the guys into this. When comments trivializing a massively ignored issue are made, people are going to try and shout down the issue it's being trivialized for.

I wish that feminists could have a discussion of women's rights, just women's rights, without feeling the need to bring men in, and not have to put up with shitheads who drag the dudes in anyway. I wish we could have the same discussion, with the same circumstances, about men's rights, and I'm grateful that there's a thread on this site that has (mostly) held to that. But what we really need to be having, and what is so rarely found, is a discussion of men's and women's right without the vitriol. Without the "Well, we have it worse!" pissing contest. A discussion where we can calmly lay out the issues effecting men and women, instead of claims of "Yeah, but it happens to men, too" or "It's worse for women so we can ignore your issues."

But, quite a few comments - from people on both sides - have failed to do that. And for this specific thread, at least, this isn't an issue of someone trying to shout down women's right issues with "But the men." The OP brought men into this argument. The final comment brought them in. And I have no doubt that, even if that comment weren't there, someone would still bring up guys. The only difference there would be that I would consider them wrong for it. But when the OP itself broaches the topic... well, I can't blame anyone for pointing out the fallacy in that logic.

 

[Verlander]

I wanted to join the hordes of people calling you out, but I actually might agree (to somewhat a lesser extent).

If I approach a woman in a club, the worst fear I have is being turned down. That's the worst case scenario. To a woman, the worst case scenario can be much worse, a steroid fuelled moron getting frustrated in rejection.

Then again, that's part of the problem of leaving "the approach" down to men. Were it the other way around, and women were more inclined to chat up men, I think there'd be much less of a problem.

 

[Psychoalpha]

Trying to tie the articles listed to anything but insanity is itself pretty insane.

I wouldn't argue that there are societal issues that need to be looked at and addressed when it comes to male entitlement, but to pretend that has anything to do with this is ridiculous at best. These people are insane. Not even the most misogynistic dirtbag, outside of a complete troll, is going to say that slitting a woman's throat is even an option if she tells you she's not interested.

If a complete stranger tries to pick you up, and upon turning him down he gets physically violent to the point of drawing a weapon and trying to maim or kill you, he is damaged and in no way representative of anything except crazy people who lose their minds over trivial bullshit.

There's certainly things to say about how men handle rejection, but trying to springboard into that off of an article where a crazy person slits someone else's throat because they said something the crazy person didn't like is probably not the best way of doing it unless you're just trying to start a pointless argument on the inter...

Oh, right. My bad. Carry on.