Woman murdered for rejecting a man, another gets her throat slashed for the same.

[Jux]

The problem is that you're simply assuming that the frequency of these things is increasing, when you provide no evidence of that, just a situation where you had two cases happening close together.

It's not an assumption, it's a personal observation. I frankly don't care enough to dig and see if statistical data exists on whether it is increasing in frequency or if it's just that these cases are becoming more highly publicized, so if you want to put a feather in your cap over that, go right ahead.

Think about it this way: two white people get murdered by Muslims within a few days, and people use that as pretext to claim that this is a huge, growing problem that needs to be "discussed" when in reality those are the only two cases of that happening this year. You might see that person as not really caring about the murders, but just trying to make Muslims look bad in order to push a narrative.

Sorry, but that fails as an analogy, because you're completely ignoring the power dynamics that exist between men and women. Second, the OP is not trying to make all men look bad.

Pointing out that men, for example, get murdered much more often than women is not distracting from the "real issue", it's simply putting it in context. Trying to block out all other contextual factors in a given issue is the most effective way to silence others. "Talk about what I want to talk about or you are derailing things" is, in itself, a way to stifle debate.

The context here is that there is a culture of entitlement when it comes to men approaching women romantically, and that women are afraid of how men are going to react. There are a few examples of that in this very thread of women speaking out about their own experiences. That's the issue, not murder in general. Twisting the conversation that way robs the discussion of context, it's nothing more than a deflection.

 

[Adam Lester]

Woman gets assaulted/mutilated by man = nationwide outrage, "rape culture", "this is why I need feminism".

Or, more likely, not. Every nation would be in a nonstop state of outrage if that was the case.

You have a very skewed idea of society if you honestly believe this. I'm not trying to be mean. Gay men get murdered for chatting other men up, straight men get assaulted for "trying it on" with a woman in a relationship (by her boyfriend if he's around). Now you might take the fact that most of the perpetrators are male as proof of "male entitlement" or "female oppression" or what have you, but I think it indicates absolutely rotten expectations given to men that enforce a constant doubt of their own masculinity which may result in them feeling the need to lash out. I'm not defending their actions for a second but society is at least partially to blame.

As mentioned, this has been clarified a number of times in this thread already. It's about what, specifically, the genders fear from each other, not in general.

On this question, wouldn't that be up to an individual's judgement? I dunno, I would be pretty baffled as well as a little hurt if I approached a woman in the bar and she jumped up, shrieked that I'm a potential rapist/serial killer while running out the door flailing her arms (if I wanted that, I'd have a Tumblr account).

Unfortunately, tragedies like this are unavoidable in the long run because they are random and you don't know a murderer in some cases until they get to murdering. We can be aware and prepared (mace, blackjacks, "escape plans", etc) but sometimes even that won't be enough.

Sure, but when it does happen, if she is raped, then she will be blamed. People will say it's her own fault for going out drinking, effectively for not running away shrieking from you at the bar.

So, what's your solution without possibly calling me a rapist (I hope you realize how fucked up that is, by the way)?

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

I read the articles, and I saw nothing even mildly substantiating such a ludicrous claim. If you want, I could dig up equally horrific stories involving jilted female suitors and it wouldn't mean a damn thing. All it proves that some people are fucking crazy and can commit some of the vilest acts imaginable. To try and consider that a gendered issue is nothing short of preposterous. This is the same exact inane bullshit that was peddled after the Elliot Rogers shooting.

**head desk**

It was a QUOTE FROM A FAMOUS AUTHOR not a fucking "gender issue argument". The OP didn't consider it an gender issue argument - that's all you (and half a dozen others like you).

The quote used is literally about situations like this. Not massive trends, about SPECIFIC situations like this.

For fuck sake, can people not use famous quotes anymore without knee-jerk reactions from people screaming "gender issues"?

Edit: To be fair, others have made it about that since - but NOT the OP (that I've seen). The OP simply expressed horror at the situation and used a relevant quote from a famous person to express her feelings. She was not arguing anything.

 

[Kathinka]

i seriously wonder what parts of the world some people live in. i pretty much tell a few people i'm not interested on a daily basis, for many, many years now, and not once, not ONCE has one of these guys been physically aggressive, and very, very rarely there was verbal hostility, i can count those incidents on one hand. and it surely isn't because guys are intimidated by my hulk-like 90-pound physique.
how on earth do you people do it?

 

[CaptainChip]

I read the articles, and I saw nothing even mildly substantiating such a ludicrous claim. If you want, I could dig up equally horrific stories involving jilted female suitors and it wouldn't mean a damn thing. All it proves that some people are fucking crazy and can commit some of the vilest acts imaginable. To try and consider that a gendered issue is nothing short of preposterous. This is the same exact inane bullshit that was peddled after the Elliot Rogers shooting.

**head desk**

It was a QUOTE FROM A FAMOUS AUTHOR not a fucking "gender issue argument". The OP didn't consider it an gender issue argument - that's all you (and half a dozen others like you).

The quote used is literally about situations like this. Not massive trends, about SPECIFIC situations like this.

For fuck sake, can people not use famous quotes anymore without knee-jerk reactions from people screaming "gender issues"?

Edit: To be fair, others have made it about that since - but NOT the OP (that I've seen). The OP simply expressed horror at the situation and used a relevant quote from a famous person to express her feelings. She was not arguing anything.

I think the issue some people, such as myself, have with it is that it's a stupid quote.

Not saying that OP is bad for using it, but the quote itself is just silly, and gives off the idea that it's a gendered subject.

 

[WhiteNachos]

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/10/mother_of_three_killed_in_detroit_after_rejecting_a_man_s_advances.html

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/10/woman_s_throat_slashed_in_queens_after_turning_down_date.html?wpisrc=mostpopular

(rubs forehead) Ok, its depressingly not new that this happens far too often, but all kinds of horrible that we've had two examples now in a matter of days.

All I have going through my head is the saying 'A mans worst fear is being laughed at - a woman's worst fear is being murdered'

EDIT:

That conclusion is pretty terrible when you consider the fact that men usually make up about 70 to 80 percent of homicide victims worldwide...

That conclusion is a reference to a quote from writer Margret Atwood when she was talking about what men fear from women vs what women fear from men. So its pretty relevant to the discussion.

Gonna copy and paste this in here as I should have made the context of the saying/quote clearer to explain why it had been in my thoughts regarding these events.

So it's ok for some people to make blanket statements about women and men now?

The statement is a load of crap. I've feared for my life before when dealing with women, I honestly thought this one woman would kill me if I pissed her off enough (and she seemed to have a short fuse).

And on another note, two examples in a matter of days really isn't a lot when you consider how many times per day a man gets rejected by a woman somewhere in the world, or how many murders take place that have nothing to do with that scenario.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Dreadful business, as always... Some people are just too sodding fragile to be anywhere around people. Bedlam is where they ought to be.

Now... There is a tendency to bring up male victims of gender rolls and related violence as a point of "YEAH BUT MEN HAVE IT HARD TOO SOMETIMES SO SHUT UP!", and it's always such a dumb idea.

First off these are not victims of gender roles. There are no gender roles that say women have to accept an offer by a man or that if a man is rejected, murder is an acceptable response. And acting like this rare occurrence is something women should constantly worry about is just wrong.

Making a post about the terrible things women have to fear from men, and acting as if this is something only women have to deal with then telling men to shut up when they say they have to deal with it too is just dishonest at best.

It is also a good reminder that you should never treat being turned down as a personal insult, which there is an appaling tendency of. But I imagine people like that simply don't reflect on their own behaviour.

If you thought rejection was personal I think you'd be more likely to reflect on your behavior but maybe that's just me.

 

[WhiteNachos]

This kind of logic reminds me of when the media went after games for causing violence.

Hey look a school shooter who played video games, and here's another murderer who played video games. Could there be a connection?

 

[Gorrath]

-because EVERYONE that is both sane and not clinically depressed is afraid of being murdered, raped, or just plain beat up?

Many juries would, the conviction rate is tiny.

May I press you on this point for a citation? I have read that conviction rates for rape compared to reported rapes are in the 6-12% range but that conviction rates for rape trials are in the 50-58% range. The conviction rate is tiny compared to rapes that are reported but not in comparison to actual trials. In other words it seems that in many cases where rape is reported, there is simply no evidence or not enough evidence to go to trial, but in cases where there is enough, the conviction rates are on par or higher than other crimes. So to say many juries would acquit because the conviction rate is tiny would be wrong. Juries convict in rape cases as much or more than other crimes.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

I think the issue some people, such as myself, have with it is that it's a stupid quote.
Not saying that OP is bad for using it, but the quote itself is just silly.

Not a fan of Margaret Atwood then? Still bitter from reading the Handmaiden's Tale in highschool?

You guys realize that the quote is a joke, right? It's dark humor - an intentional oversimplification of the situation. Also, the quote is specifically about when one person asks another person out on a date, not overall life fears.

The point of the joke is that when one person asks another person out, usually the worst a man has to fear is rejection - ie, being laughed at. The worst a woman has to fear is being fucking murdered, as is the exact situation described in the articles posted by the OP.

Every single person posting that their worst fear isn't being laughed at is missing the damn point - of course that isn't the worst fear of every man ever. But "worst fear when asking/being asked out" - ie, a fear about the reaction of the other person - is the worst thing that is going to happen to them. There aren't any cases (as far as I'm aware) where a woman murdered a man after while being asked out.

Thus, when asking someone out, the worst thing a man has to fear is rejection - that is the worst possible outcome.
When asking or being asked out, the worst thing a woman has to fear is being fucking murdered. It isn't likely, but it is a possible outcome - case in point, the links presented by the OP.

That is the dark humor of the joke. Because it's ironic, and true.

AND, being a joke, it doesn't apply to everyone. The joke entirely non-cis relationships. I'm sure homosexual individuals occasionally murder one another as well (although I've never heard of a case) but the joke generalizes gay people out of existence entirely.

The point being, you can not like the quote, but if you don't like it because it isn't 100% accurate, then you're missing the point because it isn't trying to be. It's a joke. A dark, sad joke.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Except I'm not talking about about news on an international/national level. When stories like these reaches there, it's usually for ratings. I'm talking about news on a local level in city newspapers. The types of stories that don't always make the front page of the local news and instead is in the criminal/justice section of the news media. When you collect these types of stories, stories that don't reach the mainstream audience, you notice that these types of murders happen often and with regularity. And these are just the stories in America/Western Europe and not the other cases of this happening in other countries. It is a trend.

So it DOES happen with prevailing tendency to the point where most of these cases will be ignored by the national/international news organizations unless certain situations allow it to garner more ratings and attention.

[citation needed]

I have never heard of it happening until maybe a year ago and I've only seen 4 cases at the most.

 

[And Man]

snip

It was also posted completely out of context, so you can't really get angry with people for taking it literally

 

[WhiteNachos]

All I have going through my head is the saying 'A mans worst fear is being laughed at - a woman's worst fear is being murdered'

Providing context for that quote would've helped you avoid the backlash you're going to get.

As a guy, I most certainly fear getting murdered. That's scary! Much more scary than getting laughed at. Naturally, that wasn't at all what Atwood was referring to, but if post stuff like that here on the Angry Young Men forum you're going to get shouted at.

It's comforting to dismiss people you disagree with, isn't it.

 

[Thaluikhain]

May I press you on this point for a citation? I have read that conviction rates for rape compared to reported rapes are in the 6-12% range but that conviction rates for rape trials are in the 50-58% range. The conviction rate is tiny compared to rapes that are reported but not in comparison to actual trials. In other words it seems that in many cases where rape is reported, there is simply no evidence or not enough evidence to go to trial, but in cases where there is enough, the conviction rates are on par or higher than other crimes. So to say many juries would acquit because the conviction rate is tiny would be wrong. Juries convict in rape cases as much or more than other crimes.

True, I should have expanded on that point a lot more. It's not just lack of evidence leading to lack of trial, it's lack of effort. For example, rape kits being tossed in a warehouse to be forgotten about rather than tested, though there are moves to do something about this.

However, yes, if it should get to trial, there's a reasonable chance of conviction. I still say that "no jury on earth will say otherwise" is totally wrong, though.

So, what's your solution without possibly calling me a rapist (I hope you realize how fucked up that is, by the way)?

Solution for who? If you mean for you personally, there isn't one. Lots of women are raped, and if they hadn't considered you/every other man possible rapists, they are told it's their fault (though it's generally unfair to do so until then, excepting if the man fits a scary stereotype). You can't change that.

If you mean for society, it could change either or both of those. Not easily, or quickly, but things can be done.

In the meantime, yes, you and every other not-rapist man is stuck with the problem. Women with a more serious one, of course, but nobody is winning except the rapists.

 

[Megalodon]

-because EVERYONE that is both sane and not clinically depressed is afraid of being murdered, raped, or just plain beat up?

Many juries would, the conviction rate is tiny.

May I press you on this point for a citation? I have read that conviction rates for rape compared to reported rapes are in the 6-12% range but that conviction rates for rape trials are in the 50-58% range. The conviction rate is tiny compared to rapes that are reported but not in comparison to actual trials. In other words it seems that in many cases where rape is reported, there is simply no evidence or not enough evidence to go to trial, but in cases where there is enough, the conviction rates are on par or higher than other crimes. So to say many juries would acquit because the conviction rate is tiny would be wrong. Juries convict in rape cases as much or more than other crimes.

You're 100% right. The conversion rate of rape reports to convictions is not significantly different than that for overall crime. It's certainly not an anomalously tiny figure.

Funnily enough, turns out I've done this dance with thaluikhain before:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.853821-Marion-Zimmer-Bradley-Sexually-Molested-Me-Daughter-Accuses#21129936

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

It was also posted completely out of context, so you can't really get angry with people for taking it literally

I can when the context was explained on the first page by others. Some of the second page bitching even has notes that it was already explained on the first page.

IF I explained it better (and perhaps I did) then sure, I'm awesome, but the context was explained.

 

[CaptainChip]

I think the issue some people, such as myself, have with it is that it's a stupid quote.
Not saying that OP is bad for using it, but the quote itself is just silly.

Not a fan of Margaret Atwood then? Still bitter from reading the Handmaiden's Tale in highschool?

You guys realize that the quote is a joke, right? It's dark humor - an intentional oversimplification of the situation. Also, the quote is specifically about when one person asks another person out on a date, not overall life fears.

The point of the joke is that when one person asks another person out, usually the worst a man has to fear is rejection - ie, being laughed at. The worst a woman has to fear is being fucking murdered, as is the exact situation described in the articles posted by the OP.

Every single person posting that their worst fear isn't being laughed at is missing the damn point - of course that isn't the worst fear of every man ever. But "worst fear when asking/being asked out" - ie, a fear about the reaction of the other person - is the worst thing that is going to happen to them. There aren't any cases (as far as I'm aware) where a woman murdered a man after while being asked out.

Thus, when asking someone out, the worst thing a man has to fear is rejection - that is the worst possible outcome.
When asking or being asked out, the worst thing a woman has to fear is being fucking murdered. It isn't likely, but it is a possible outcome - case in point, the links presented by the OP.

That is the dark humor of the joke. Because it's ironic, and true.

AND, being a joke, it doesn't apply to everyone. The joke entirely non-cis relationships. I'm sure homosexual individuals occasionally murder one another as well (although I've never heard of a case) but the joke generalizes gay people out of existence entirely.

The point being, you can not like the quote, but if you don't like it because it isn't 100% accurate, then you're missing the point because it isn't trying to be. It's a joke. A dark, sad joke.

So tell me, what was the point of putting it in the OP? I can't guess all that without the actual context of the story itself. Most people won't. And based of the application of which it was applied in OP's post, I doubt s/he was making a point over the oversimplification of men and women's fears, considering the topic was "Look at the trend of women getting murdered by lovers." The quote itself, which only has the OP's words as context, gave off the presentation that it was a gendered issue. And with no context, yes the quote itself is stupid.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It's comforting to dismiss people you disagree with, isn't it.

I'm sorry WhiteNachos, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you referring to something you believe I inferred? Or are you just randomly starting a sidebar conversation with me?

 

[WhiteNachos]

https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

I'll just leave this here, so you can tell us again how 1 in 11 people being shoplifters makes shoplifting fairly common place, but 1 in 6 women being raped doesn't make rape/sexual abuse/assault commonplace.

You know what isn't commonplace? 1 in 33 men being raped. 1 in 33 for men vs 1 in 6 for women, but please, also do keep going on about how bad men have it in order to trivialize and demean the abuse women face at the hands of men.

This post was about murder, not rape so please stop trying to derail it.

But, of course, we're to believe the people who do this kind of thing in every single thread about women and issues that affect them that are made on these forums totally aren't sexist/misogynistic.

Oh get off your fucking high horse. The OP said this a problem women have to deal with and men don't so saying they do have to deal with it is on-topic.