Woman murdered for rejecting a man, another gets her throat slashed for the same.

[hentropy]

The problem is that you're simply assuming that the frequency of these things is increasing, when you provide no evidence of that, just a situation where you had two cases happening close together.

It's not an assumption, it's a personal observation. I frankly don't care enough to dig and see if statistical data exists on whether it is increasing in frequency or if it's just that these cases are becoming more highly publicized, so if you want to put a feather in your cap over that, go right ahead.

The problem isn't so much "anecdotes don't matter", it's just that there are used entirely too often to "prove" a certain conclusion. I am a GSM myself, I've had a lot of experiences that are not "normal" and thus I can't and don't use them as evidence or proof of overall trends outside of the GSM community. This is why it's hard to find common ground and discuss these things using anecdotes, because every individual has different experiences and perspectives, and it's the reason why some believe we live in a "rape culture" and some believe that we live under a "gyno-centric government", because they're making projections on a very diverse and varied culture at large based on personal experiences.

Here's an anecdote: I was taught at an early age to never hit a girl, even if it is in self-defense, because I was a boy. I was small, not terribly athletic, but I did learn self-defense techniques, and those led me to a philosophy of pacifism, I was not to use any physical force unless in self-defense. However, this was coupled with never using self-defense against girls, so a small number of girls in the class decided to use that fact to physically bully me, and I could not, according to internalized morals, fight back. I didn't, and I was told by others this was the right thing to do. I don't blame them now, just as I don't blame the multitude of boys who harassed me because I was not hetero, at the same time I simply don't "see" this culture of entitlement you speak of, but rather a culture that wants to treat women as delicate child-like flowers that need constant protection. I will not, however, claim that that is the case either, as diverse peoples and cultures cannot be summed up so easily and conveniently. The truth is always much more complicated.

Think about it this way: two white people get murdered by Muslims within a few days, and people use that as pretext to claim that this is a huge, growing problem that needs to be "discussed" when in reality those are the only two cases of that happening this year. You might see that person as not really caring about the murders, but just trying to make Muslims look bad in order to push a narrative.

Sorry, but that fails as an analogy, because you're completely ignoring the power dynamics that exist between men and women. Second, the OP is not trying to make all men look bad.

I'm not ignoring it, just like I'm not "ignoring" the plight of penguins in the arctic, it's just not relevant to the point I was making. I was simply pointing out how people can point out isolated events, claim they are a trend, and draw conclusions from the false trends. It's problematic no matter what power dynamics you might be talking about.

Pointing out that men, for example, get murdered much more often than women is not distracting from the "real issue", it's simply putting it in context. Trying to block out all other contextual factors in a given issue is the most effective way to silence others. "Talk about what I want to talk about or you are derailing things" is, in itself, a way to stifle debate.

The context here is that there is a culture of entitlement when it comes to men approaching women romantically, and that women are afraid of how men are going to react. There are a few examples of that in this very thread of women speaking out about their own experiences. That's the issue, not murder in general. Twisting the conversation that way robs the discussion of context, it's nothing more than a deflection.

I have no problem with recognizing that there are some men who are misguided or just all-around assholes who feel entitled to a woman and/or have serious anger or personal problems. The issue at contention is whether this is indicative of a "culture of entitlement", which is an accusatory phrase like "rape culture" which suggests that these things are not only pandemic but accepted by society as a whole, and that all men are somehow guilty of it simply by being men. You and others may not have meant this, but you can't blame people for reacting when being accused of things they've never done.

In my own experience, it's much more helpful and constructive to use a conversational tone, rather than an accusatory one. Domestic violence rooted in misogyny IS a problem that exists and do need to be addressed, culturally and in some cases legislatively. But I'm still told that believing this is not enough, that I have to believe that this is a "X Culture" or else I'm being complacent. This is what I take objection to.

 

[Callate]

Reducing it to "entitlement" and "rape culture" and all the popular pop phrases

...

We keep telling men the world is theirs, the power is theirs, and for the vast majority of men (and an increasing number, given economic conditions), that is a lie. A lie that is told every day.

You seem to be describing entitlement (and perhaps, to an extent, rape culture) there.

EDIT: I tend to agree with you on that, those are real issues that need to be addressed, but that's a strong overlap with what people complaining about entitlement and rape culture keep saying needs to be addressed.

I think there's a difference between "You're awesome, you deserve this" and "You don't have this, what's wrong with you". It seems like too often the assumption is only one of smug self-satisfaction, and not burden and fear. The term "privilege" implies something at hand, not just something that was implied to be deserved. It's the difference between something that gives its bearer confidence and something that's like a phantom limb- everything saying it should be there, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Privilege exists. Rape culture exists. But they're too often, and far too broadly used as "win words" to quell discussion rather than to open it up. You can't see through your privilege. You're a rape culture apologist.

I strongly feel that the way the conversation is often framed is causing people to drop out of it, people without whom change is impossible. Not just men, but the 77% of women, according to one survey, who refuse to identify as feminists. If we can only look at issues like this as something in which men are aggressors and women are victims, we reinforce the notion that men are the only ones with power, the only ones with responsibility, and the only ones who can effect a change- and things will continue pretty much as they have.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Except I'm not talking about about news on an international/national level. When stories like these reaches there, it's usually for ratings. I'm talking about news on a local level in city newspapers. The types of stories that don't always make the front page of the local news and instead is in the criminal/justice section of the news media. When you collect these types of stories, stories that don't reach the mainstream audience, you notice that these types of murders happen often and with regularity. And these are just the stories in America/Western Europe and not the other cases of this happening in other countries. It is a trend.

So it DOES happen with prevailing tendency to the point where most of these cases will be ignored by the national/international news organizations unless certain situations allow it to garner more ratings and attention.

[citation needed]

I have never heard of it happening until maybe a year ago and I've only seen 4 cases at the most.

Well, I know how much you guys hate this website, but it is used as an archive of these cases. Most parts will link to the news article of said murder/assault/rape for proof. Though, knowing you, you will probably just take one look at the website name and scream how it isn't a "resource" even though I'm telling you it's an archive of resources and better than me posting all 414 links. Keep in mind that most of these are just in America and parts of Western Europe.

http://whenwomenrefuse.tumblr.com/

Also, just because you haven't heard about something, doesn't mean it's actually happening. But please feel free to keep this "this thread is sexist" shtick you're doing with the other posters.

You need statistics to show a trend. This does not show statistics.

There are blogs that have a post every times crimes are committed by black people or by Muslims or by white people to try to convince people that those people are dangerous. You can make blogs about any bizarre crime or about the crimes committed by X group because a lot of stuff goes on in the world. I could make a blog about mothers who kill their children or Asians who steal cars if I wanted to.

You want to show a trend? Show how often it happens per year. I don't see that here. I see cases from around the world, I see anecdotal evidence and I doubt every story there happened in the same year, so is it 400 something cases (some unsourced) over 1 year, 2 years, 10?

Fucking this. Simply posting cases of such acts is nothing more than empirical evidence. You can't make such a broad, general statements with such information, you need actual statistics supporting your argument and even then you can really only correlation other than direct causation.

I just realized we may be arguing different things.

I thought she was saying it's happening with increasing frequency while she might be saying that it happens often enough (as opposed to it being super rare).

If the latter is the case, I apologize. This is still not enough for the OP's point though without a comparison. How often is rejection the reason for men murdering women? How often does the reverse happen? How often does it happen between gay men or gay women?

I can say that hundreds of men murder women every year over adultery (I don't know if that's true) but that doesn't show a problem unique to men if a similar amount of women murder men for adultery.

In the US more murders are committed by men than women so maybe the percentage of rejection murders (vs other murders) is the same for women. We wouldn't know whether that's true based off the blog.

 

[Jux]

What are you talking about?

What part of what I said was unclear?

This is 2 people out of something like 200,000 that die everyday. What exactly is this "meaningful discussion" suppose to be in your eyes?

That you're so focused on this simply as a murder and not the reasons and social trends behind it isn't particularly surprising. At best it's a very obtuse viewpoint, at worst it's a deliberate attempt at obfuscation. Regardless of whether the OP intended to make this a thread about the broader issue of sexual entitlement (and I think she did, or at least understood it's importance in the conversation, considering she invoked the Atwood quote), that is a meaningful discussion to be had.

Shaming men because the death rate for men isn't already high enough? You think we should be aiming for 90?

While the easy thing would be to just laugh and play the man hating (self hating?) feminist boogeyman and say 'No! I won't be satisfied until men are 100% of the murder victims!', that doesn't really do anything except give me a laugh. No one is shaming men here as far as I can see, nor does it make any sort of sense that men would be shamed 'because their death rate isn't high enough'.

 

[Theodora]

Reducing it to "entitlement" and "rape culture" and all the popular pop phrases

...

We keep telling men the world is theirs, the power is theirs, and for the vast majority of men (and an increasing number, given economic conditions), that is a lie. A lie that is told every day.

You seem to be describing entitlement (and perhaps, to an extent, rape culture) there.

EDIT: I tend to agree with you on that, those are real issues that need to be addressed, but that's a strong overlap with what people complaining about entitlement and rape culture keep saying needs to be addressed.

I think there's a difference between "You're awesome, you deserve this" and "You don't have this, what's wrong with you". It seems like too often the assumption is only one of smug self-satisfaction, and not burden and fear. The term "privilege" implies something at hand, not just something that was implied to be deserved. It's the difference between something that gives its bearer confidence and something that's like a phantom limb- everything saying it should be there, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Privilege exists. Rape culture exists. But they're too often, and far too broadly used as "win words" to quell discussion rather than to open it up. You can't see through your privilege. You're a rape culture apologist.

I strongly feel that the way the conversation is often framed is causing people to drop out of it, people without whom change is impossible. Not just men, but the 77% of women, according to one survey, who refuse to identify as feminists. If we can only look at issues like this as something in which men are aggressors and women are victims, we reinforce the notion that men are the only ones with power, the only ones with responsibility, and the only ones who can effect a change- and things will continue pretty much as they have.

I see it as something even more dangerous. It is a mentality that enforces gender norms. Mainly women as objects, not actors. Things happen to women, women are incapable of enacting real change.

More over there exists a tacit admission that only one gender is capable of anything we could call "evil." Which on some level IMHO is dehumanizing to women.

 

[Jux]

The problem isn't so much "anecdotes don't matter", it's just that there are used entirely too often to "prove" a certain conclusion. I am a GSM myself, I've had a lot of experiences that are not "normal" and thus I can't and don't use them as evidence or proof of overall trends outside of the GSM community. This is why it's hard to find common ground and discuss these things using anecdotes, because every individual has different experiences and perspectives, and it's the reason why some believe we live in a "rape culture" and some believe that we live under a "gyno-centric government", because they're making projections on a very diverse and varied culture at large based on personal experiences.

You'll have to elaborate here. I see 'GSM' and my mind immediately goes to 'Goldsmith'. That aside, I've already said that the whole 'increased frequency' thing is just what I've observed. Now, if we're going to expand this further and say that these two murders are just extreme examples of sexual entitlement, I would be more than willing to go into a more detailed critical analysis why I feel this is true.

Here's an anecdote: I was taught at an early age to never hit a girl, even if it is in self-defense, because I was a boy. I was small, not terribly athletic, but I did learn self-defense techniques, and those led me to a philosophy of pacifism, I was not to use any physical force unless in self-defense. However, this was coupled with never using self-defense against girls, so a small number of girls in the class decided to use that fact to physically bully me, and I could not, according to internalized morals, fight back. I didn't, and I was told by others this was the right thing to do. I don't blame them now, just as I don't blame the multitude of boys who harassed me because I was not hetero, at the same time I simply don't "see" this culture of entitlement you speak of, but rather a culture that wants to treat women as delicate child-like flowers that need constant protection. I will not, however, claim that that is the case either, as diverse peoples and cultures cannot be summed up so easily and conveniently. The truth is always much more complicated.

Infantilizing women is a problem yes, and something most feminists would argue against. I would never begrudge anyone defending themselves against a physical assault, man or woman, so long as the defense is proportional to the assault. An example of what I don't consider proportional [http://web.archive.org/web/20110702180031/http://www.avoiceformen.com/2010/10/22/if-you-see-jezebel-in-the-road-run-the-*****-down/].

I'm not ignoring it, just like I'm not "ignoring" the plight of penguins in the arctic, it's just not relevant to the point I was making. I was simply pointing out how people can point out isolated events, claim they are a trend, and draw conclusions from the false trends. It's problematic no matter what power dynamics you might be talking about.

It may not have been relevant to you, but that doesn't make it irrelevant to the topic overall.

I have no problem with recognizing that there are some men who are misguided or just all-around assholes who feel entitled to a woman and/or have serious anger or personal problems. The issue at contention is whether this is indicative of a "culture of entitlement", which is an accusatory phrase like "rape culture" which suggests that these things are not only pandemic but accepted by society as a whole, and that all men are somehow guilty of it simply by being men. You and others may not have meant this, but you can't blame people for reacting when being accused of things they've never done.

Whenever I see someone say rape culture in quotes, more often than not they don't really understand what rape culture is. I would say that society as a whole does typically accept that men are sexually entitled to women. However, it's a non sequitur to say that the next logical step is to assume all men are guilty of doing this simply by being men.

In my own experience, it's much more helpful and constructive to use a conversational tone, rather than an accusatory one. Domestic violence rooted in misogyny IS a problem that exists and do need to be addressed, culturally and in some cases legislatively. But I'm still told that believing this is not enough, that I have to believe that this is a "X Culture" or else I'm being complacent. This is what I take objection to.

I'm not really big on tone policing. It's unfortunate that you think I'm taking an accusatory tone, but I'm not going to couch my message in soft language just to placate the sensitivities of someone (and this isn't meant specifically for you) that doesn't understand the difference between me saying that rape culture and a culture of sexual entitlement exists, and me saying that all men are to blame for it (or the only ones to blame for it).

 

[Otakun]

I find it interesting that not a single person seemed to have brought up two issues. Location and Race. People are making this solely an issue of gender when there are other factors involved. Detroit is the most dangerous city in the US for five years in a row according to Forbes. The issue of this being a black on black crime also wasn't brought up. People are going to generalize all men because of what some men do in the most dangerous city in the US. Well, I can assure you that not all men live in Detroit or places even close to like it. Are people believing that race is a non-factor to this but only a gender issue? or are you afraid of being called racist but don't mind being sexist towards men? If you find that to be true then maybe some of you will have a better understanding of why men get offended by things claimed against men in general.

 

[Gorrath]

I see it as something even more dangerous. It is a mentality that enforces gender norms. Mainly women as objects, not actors. Things happen to women, women are incapable of enacting real change.

More over there exists a tacit admission that only one gender is capable of anything we could call "evil." Which on some level IMHO is dehumanizing to women.

While I am sympathetic to the ideas you present here, there is a problem we have in discourse on these subjects where any and every problem of society's perception of men and women becomes viewed as really just a problem for women. I realize you didn't say that, but that's what it comes off as when one asserts that a negative perception of men is REALLY a negative perception of women. Men's and women's issues are inexorably intertwined. This is why it is not unjustified to talk about men's issues and women's issues in the same breath. It's why I reject the notion that threads about "women's issues" are derailed by any mention of how such issues affect men. It's why I think it is imperative we all understand that all issues, even presumably "gendered" issues, are human issues.

Is it dehumanizing to women to presume only men are capable of evil? Perhaps it is. It is also a huge problem that dehumanizes men as well, since men are oft linked with violent even animalistic qualities. It duhumanizes men not by taking away their status as actors, but by making them into brutes. Such gender specific sentiments are damaging to both sexes, sometimes in the same way and sometimes in different ways. (I hesitate every time I write gender though, as sex is really the more appropriate term here.)

 

[Theodora]

I see it as something even more dangerous. It is a mentality that enforces gender norms. Mainly women as objects, not actors. Things happen to women, women are incapable of enacting real change.

More over there exists a tacit admission that only one gender is capable of anything we could call "evil." Which on some level IMHO is dehumanizing to women.

While I am sympathetic to the ideas you present here, there is a problem we have in discourse on these subjects where any and every problem of society's perception of men and women becomes viewed as really just a problem for women. I realize you didn't say that, but that's what it comes off as when one asserts that a negative perception of men is REALLY a negative perception of women. Men's and women's issues are inexorably intertwined. This is why it is not unjustified to talk about men's issues and women's issues in the same breath. It's why I reject the notion that threads about "women's issues" are derailed by any mention of how such issues affect men. It's why I think it is imperative we all understand that all issues, even presumably "gendered" issues, are human issues.

Is it dehumanizing to women to presume only men are capable of evil? Perhaps it is. It is also a huge problem that dehumanizes men as well, since men are oft linked with violent even animalistic qualities. It duhumanizes men not by taking away their status as actors, but by making them into brutes. Such gender specific sentiments are damaging to both sexes, sometimes in the same way and sometimes in different ways. (I hesitate every time I write gender though, as sex is really the more appropriate term here.)

I think the issue for men is also serious. Men viewed as actors are thus responsible for everything. Even having the expectation of what an objective person would consider super-human levels of judgement. For example if two drunk people get together and have sex, more often then not the male will be labeled the rapist and the female a rape victim. Even though they both were intoxicated. The male is expected to exercise a form of judgement not expected of women and usually only a form of judgement only a sober person to exercise.

I see your point and appreciate it.

 

[Panda Pandemic]

I find it interesting that not a single person seemed to have brought up two issues. Location and Race. People are making this solely an issue of gender when there are other factors involved. Detroit is the most dangerous city in the US for five years in a row according to Forbes. The issue of this being a black on black crime also wasn't brought up. People are going to generalize all men because of what some men do in the most dangerous city in the US. Well, I can assure you that not all men live in Detroit or places even close to like it. Are people believing that race is a non-factor to this but only a gender issue? or are you afraid of being called racist but don't mind being sexist towards men? If you find that to be true then maybe some of you will have a better understanding of why men get offended by things claimed against men in general.

Do elaborate on the race bit. What exactly do you think the importance of it is in this? You were rather vague on details, You simply mention it.

 

[Gorrath]

Reducing it to "entitlement" and "rape culture" and all the popular pop phrases

...

We keep telling men the world is theirs, the power is theirs, and for the vast majority of men (and an increasing number, given economic conditions), that is a lie. A lie that is told every day.

You seem to be describing entitlement (and perhaps, to an extent, rape culture) there.

EDIT: I tend to agree with you on that, those are real issues that need to be addressed, but that's a strong overlap with what people complaining about entitlement and rape culture keep saying needs to be addressed.

I think there's a difference between "You're awesome, you deserve this" and "You don't have this, what's wrong with you". It seems like too often the assumption is only one of smug self-satisfaction, and not burden and fear. The term "privilege" implies something at hand, not just something that was implied to be deserved. It's the difference between something that gives its bearer confidence and something that's like a phantom limb- everything saying it should be there, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Privilege exists. Rape culture exists. But they're too often, and far too broadly used as "win words" to quell discussion rather than to open it up. You can't see through your privilege. You're a rape culture apologist.

I strongly feel that the way the conversation is often framed is causing people to drop out of it, people without whom change is impossible. Not just men, but the 77% of women, according to one survey, who refuse to identify as feminists. If we can only look at issues like this as something in which men are aggressors and women are victims, we reinforce the notion that men are the only ones with power, the only ones with responsibility, and the only ones who can effect a change- and things will continue pretty much as they have.

I want to lend a voice of confident approval for what you've written here. Your observation is very astute and well worded. Things like rape culture, privilege and misogyny are often just as misunderstood by those who invoke them as those who deny them. I greatly appreciate the way you summed up this problem.

 

[Something Amyss]

Jesus fucking Christ, are you missing the point entirely.

If this was the only time a bunch of Escapists got butthurt because someone mentioned men, that statement would be true. As that's not the case, and many of the same people are the ones doing it here, that statement is not true.

The unfortunate reality is that white dudes need to be treated more gently than any other group because even mentioning them hurts their feelings and leads to rage. Here, elsewhere on the internet, and in the place known as "real life."

So yes. I'm missing the point, but only if you miss the larger context.

 

[spartan231490]

"A man's worse fear is being laughed at, a woman's worse fear is being murdered." Am I supposed to laugh? Is this a bad joke? You do realize that men are murdered several times more often than women, right(in western nations at least.) These women were not killed for turning down a man. They were killed because very disturbed individuals decided to kill them. It really is that simple.

 

[Andrey Sirotin]

Excuses are a dime a dozen when it comes to physical assaults and any crime in general. If such physical assaults are commonplace in the US then the victims should report them to the police and let the justice system short things out.

Many people don't have that much faith in the justice system, and not for no reason.

I agree but letting crimes go unpunished is accepting the crime as justifiable.

Certainly, but that shouldn't be extended to condemning victims for their response to the crime.

US justice system is not perfect, but it's far better than what most of the world has. I don't think that anybody in this thread is looking to condemn the victim for their reaction, but we should strongly encourage them to come forward. I remember a case a while back where a pedophile got away with four rapes because mothers would refuse to let their daughters to testify. A friend of mine called the mother of the fifth victim and begged her to let the daughter testify. The pedophile is now serving a life sentence in prison due to that girl's testimony. If we encourage the victims to come forward, we can stop the criminals from creating more of them.

 

[Gorrath]

I see it as something even more dangerous. It is a mentality that enforces gender norms. Mainly women as objects, not actors. Things happen to women, women are incapable of enacting real change.

More over there exists a tacit admission that only one gender is capable of anything we could call "evil." Which on some level IMHO is dehumanizing to women.

While I am sympathetic to the ideas you present here, there is a problem we have in discourse on these subjects where any and every problem of society's perception of men and women becomes viewed as really just a problem for women. I realize you didn't say that, but that's what it comes off as when one asserts that a negative perception of men is REALLY a negative perception of women. Men's and women's issues are inexorably intertwined. This is why it is not unjustified to talk about men's issues and women's issues in the same breath. It's why I reject the notion that threads about "women's issues" are derailed by any mention of how such issues affect men. It's why I think it is imperative we all understand that all issues, even presumably "gendered" issues, are human issues.

Is it dehumanizing to women to presume only men are capable of evil? Perhaps it is. It is also a huge problem that dehumanizes men as well, since men are oft linked with violent even animalistic qualities. It duhumanizes men not by taking away their status as actors, but by making them into brutes. Such gender specific sentiments are damaging to both sexes, sometimes in the same way and sometimes in different ways. (I hesitate every time I write gender though, as sex is really the more appropriate term here.)

I think the issue for men is also serious. Men viewed as actors are thus responsible for everything. Even having the expectation of what an objective person would consider super-human levels of judgement. For example if two drunk people get together and have sex, more often then not the male will be labeled the rapist and the female a rape victim. Even though they both were intoxicated. The male is expected to exercise a form of judgement not expected of women and usually only a form of judgement only a sober person to exercise.

I see your point and appreciate it.

Great example, that's exactly what I was on about. Every one of these issues are a problem we have to look at from both sides and find fixes not only for how we view women but also men. It is only when we realize how destructive these notions are to everyone that we can get people on board for solutions. Thanks for taking my response to you not as a criticism, but as an addition to what you were saying. Very awesome of you.

 

[Theodora]

I see it as something even more dangerous. It is a mentality that enforces gender norms. Mainly women as objects, not actors. Things happen to women, women are incapable of enacting real change.

More over there exists a tacit admission that only one gender is capable of anything we could call "evil." Which on some level IMHO is dehumanizing to women.

While I am sympathetic to the ideas you present here, there is a problem we have in discourse on these subjects where any and every problem of society's perception of men and women becomes viewed as really just a problem for women. I realize you didn't say that, but that's what it comes off as when one asserts that a negative perception of men is REALLY a negative perception of women. Men's and women's issues are inexorably intertwined. This is why it is not unjustified to talk about men's issues and women's issues in the same breath. It's why I reject the notion that threads about "women's issues" are derailed by any mention of how such issues affect men. It's why I think it is imperative we all understand that all issues, even presumably "gendered" issues, are human issues.

Is it dehumanizing to women to presume only men are capable of evil? Perhaps it is. It is also a huge problem that dehumanizes men as well, since men are oft linked with violent even animalistic qualities. It duhumanizes men not by taking away their status as actors, but by making them into brutes. Such gender specific sentiments are damaging to both sexes, sometimes in the same way and sometimes in different ways. (I hesitate every time I write gender though, as sex is really the more appropriate term here.)

I think the issue for men is also serious. Men viewed as actors are thus responsible for everything. Even having the expectation of what an objective person would consider super-human levels of judgement. For example if two drunk people get together and have sex, more often then not the male will be labeled the rapist and the female a rape victim. Even though they both were intoxicated. The male is expected to exercise a form of judgement not expected of women and usually only a form of judgement only a sober person to exercise.

I see your point and appreciate it.

Great example, that's exactly what I was on about. Every one of these issues are a problem we have to look at from both sides and find fixes not only for how we view women but also men. It is only when we realize how destructive these notions are to everyone that we can get people on board for solutions. Thanks for taking my response to you not as a criticism, but as an addition to what you were saying. Very awesome of you.

I do what I can :3

I think with this story even, a gender issue is being made were one likely doesn't exist. In my own searches I can't find a rampant trend of women getting murdered for rejecting romantic interests. I think someone is trying to make hey out of what is otherwise simply a profoundly tragic and unlucky incident for two now very dead individuals. I found stories of women beating up guys who refused to buy them drinks, so lets not pretend this is some unidirectional crisis we need to go calling in the N.O.W about.

I think if anything this is an excellent time to discuss American dating habits, personal safety and our nations incredibly bad mental health.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Jesus fucking Christ, are you missing the point entirely.

If this was the only time a bunch of Escapists got butthurt because someone mentioned men, that statement would be true. As that's not the case, and many of the same people are the ones doing it here, that statement is not true.

You did miss the point. Or rather ignored it. Nobody said men were the real victims and nobody said this was a white male issue. You were the one who dragged race into it.

The unfortunate reality is that white dudes need to be treated more gently than any other group because even mentioning them hurts their feelings and leads to rage. Here, elsewhere on the internet, and in the place known as "real life."

What a sexist and racist statement.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

These conversations have become so predictable.

Quote cooked stats from a biased source (aka a group looking for money), and never mind that the same group has already outright dismissed the very concept of a rape culture (both RAINN).

Conflate criticism of methods/statistics with support for the crimes being discussed because someone checking your math and/or methodology is obviously a secret proponent of one of the worst crimes imaginable.

Conflate risk-reduction (also recommended by RAINN) with victim-blaming because it makes sense to base behavior on the world as it ought to be rather than occasionally face the unpleasant realities of the world as it is.

Ponder why this is a "male" issue and definitely attribute it to culture because that's how you fuel social engineering policies that redistribute resources, influence, and power. It's not about discovering biological or evolutionary truth because then you might stumble upon some legitimate and immutable differences between the sexes, and that flies in the face of modern gender/sex theory.

Anyways, here's an alternate theory regarding these cases. I call it the "drowning in your own swimming pool" effect.

People who own pools are "infinitely" more likely to drown in their own backyard than people who don't own pools. Not because drowning in your own backyard when you own a pool is common, but because drowning in your own backyward when you don't own a pool is almost fucking impossible.

Similarly, when men are far more likely to "actively pursue romantic relationships" (or approach, or chase, or court, or however you want to phrase it) than are women, the rate of incidence of any crimes based on rejection will drastically "favor" men. If women were suddenly the more aggressive sex in terms of "pursuit", the rate of incidence of crimes based on rejection would flip-flop - and then a bunch of people who don't know what the hell they're talking about could paint women as monsters in need of social reeducation.

Finally, the discussion bleeds into whether or not it's "right" that men are the ones who need to chase, and of course someone will talk about how that's the patriarchy at work because culture explains absolutely everything. Culture definitely isn't a manifestation or refinement of clear biological differences, oh no. The tiniest little bit from your childhood can signal who you are for your entire life (I actually believe this to be true, too), but the fact that we are biologically, psychologically, and chemically different on a number of fundamental levels would never, ever impact the way we comport ourselves in relation to our environments and each other.

Then there is the final bummer: you will never, ever remove evil from the world. It goes hand-in-hand with free will. Everyone in the developed Western world is inundated with anti-murder and anti-rape messaging from childhood on. These crimes are punished severely by the law and the court of public opinion. The rates for these tragedies are, to my knowledge, as low as they've ever been. There's only so much society can (or should) do to direct or restrict human nature, good and bad alike.

 

[Gorrath]

Jesus fucking Christ, are you missing the point entirely.

The unfortunate reality is that white dudes need to be treated more gently than any other group because even mentioning them hurts their feelings and leads to rage. Here, elsewhere on the internet, and in the place known as "real life."

Right, nothing at all wrong with that statement. As a member of the "white dude" collective brain, allow me to offer you my thanks. White dudes everywhere can now rest easily knowing that someone has our back. I don't know whether to tip my fedora to you or spin my baseball cap around backward and call you "brah."

Unhelpful sarcasm aside, come on man. The only one to bring up race in this thread is you, so that bit of race baiting is completely unwarranted. It is unnecessarily inflammatory and gets us no where. But yeah, sure, white men are the only people to get angry when people make racist statements about them. That totally fits with reality. Just like men shouldn't get mad about sexism. Or rather, they should be mad about sexism against women but shouldn't get mad about sexism against men. After all, sexism and racism aren't wrong, they are just wrong when you do it to certain people. Let's all turn hyperbole up to 11 and join in the great meltdown that ensues.

 

[Ushiromiya Battler]

Jesus fucking Christ, are you missing the point entirely.

The unfortunate reality is that white dudes need to be treated more gently than any other group because even mentioning them hurts their feelings and leads to rage. Here, elsewhere on the internet, and in the place known as "real life."

I will now quote you every time you mention white men in this thread as you were the one that brought them up.
Or I wont because it would be a waste of time, probably just annoy you, net me a report and generally not make you acknowledge that you and only you mentioned white men(until people replied to you).

OT:That Margarett Atwood quote wasn't really a good idea I'd say. It's extremely inflammatory in this context for people that don't know of it or recognize it.

EDIT: Forgot a word