Women aren't Babies

[CaptainMarvelous]

Sexism in the adult world is nowhere near as prevalent as certain extremists want us to believe it is. Lonely teenagers online are the only real sexists in the bulk of the Western world and the cavalcade of sexism laws makes it a very dangerous world for employers to step into, especially in the U.S., where suing someone is as common as drinking a coffee. There's some people who stick to "traditional roles," where the woman cooks and the man goes to work, etc. But that's hardly a sexism worth going after, because the people in those roles have as much right to partake in them as we do to not.

Yeah, some people are treated badly because of they're female, but it's more often than not simply a woman thinking she didn't get the promotion because she's a woman. There's no real evidence women have it harder than men and every statistic I've ever seen as shown more women than men get a higher education and preferential treatment for university. It's all largely guilt trips and conjecture.

No, that's complete and utter bullshit. I could go dig up the usual sources, but honestly, what's the point? If you've chosen to believe that, facts won't get in the way.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-004-x/2008001/article/10561-eng.htm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5417475/Women-now-out-number-and-out-perform-men-at-all-universities-study-finds.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html?pagewanted=all

Yup. Can't say for the preferential treatement but there are more women in university than men. What does this change? Not much but it doesn't look like Clearing the Eye is saying complete and utter bullshit.

Incidentally, as a black man who is well aware of the KKK, I find it interesting to hear about how women get the most verbal abuse.

 

[Thaluikhain]

While I have seen statistics that women rate higher in spousal abuse, I have not seen anything to say that sexism is higher vs women in other areas. On a more closer related subject, bullying stats have the number 1 target being LGBT people. If you can produce some stats I would love to see them.

The classic example is rape. Somewhere between 1 and 3 and 1 in 6 (depending on which naiton you live in) women are raped in their lifetimes, almost always by men. The number of rales of men (also almost always by men) are much lower. Also, the conviction rate is appalling.

One of the other classic examples is the leaders of industry, finance, military, politics and religions groups in whichever nation you live in are almost certainly dominated by men (there are a very few exceptions to this). Politics is arguably the biggest one, as it's supposed to be representative (when you have a government panel to decide what rights women get in the US, for example, it's almost always made up exclusively of men).

Then there's stuff like how men earn on average more than women, though the amount varies alot between nations.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Sexism in the adult world is nowhere near as prevalent as certain extremists want us to believe it is. Lonely teenagers online are the only real sexists in the bulk of the Western world and the cavalcade of sexism laws makes it a very dangerous world for employers to step into, especially in the U.S., where suing someone is as common as drinking a coffee. There's some people who stick to "traditional roles," where the woman cooks and the man goes to work, etc. But that's hardly a sexism worth going after, because the people in those roles have as much right to partake in them as we do to not.

Yeah, some people are treated badly because of they're female, but it's more often than not simply a woman thinking she didn't get the promotion because she's a woman. There's no real evidence women have it harder than men and every statistic I've ever seen as shown more women than men get a higher education and preferential treatment for university. It's all largely guilt trips and conjecture.

No, that's complete and utter bullshit. I could go dig up the usual sources, but honestly, what's the point? If you've chosen to believe that, facts won't get in the way.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-004-x/2008001/article/10561-eng.htm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5417475/Women-now-out-number-and-out-perform-men-at-all-universities-study-finds.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html?pagewanted=all

Yup. Can't say for the preferential treatement but there are more women in university than men. What does this change? Not much but it doesn't look like Clearing the Eye is saying complete and utter bullshit.

Incidentally, as a black man who is well aware of the KKK, I find it interesting to hear about how women get the most verbal abuse.

I think the feminist movement is simply a lot louder about certain issues than the racial minorities. This could be because it's much easier to talk about sexism than the to look at an issue like racism, where poverty and crime is involved. Tell someone you want to talk about racism towards black people and a lot of them will instantly think of ghettos and street gangs and no one wants to think about that. It's the same reason more is done for the general medical community and hospitals than mental health--who wants to talk about "crazy" people? Also the same with child abuse--no one wants to think about it, so we tend to ignore it.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

While I have seen statistics that women rate higher in spousal abuse, I have not seen anything to say that sexism is higher vs women in other areas. On a more closer related subject, bullying stats have the number 1 target being LGBT people. If you can produce some stats I would love to see them.

The classic example is rape. Somewhere between 1 and 3 and 1 in 6 (depending on which naiton you live in) women are raped in their lifetimes, almost always by men. The number of rales of men (also almost always by men) are much lower. Also, the conviction rate is appalling.

One of the other classic examples is the leaders of industry, finance, military, politics and religions groups in whichever nation you live in are almost certainly dominated by men (there are a very few exceptions to this). Politics is arguably the biggest one, as it's supposed to be representative (when you have a government panel to decide what rights women get in the US, for example, it's almost always made up exclusively of men).

Then there's stuff like how men earn on average more than women, though the amount varies alot between nations.

The rape statistics are grossly exaggerated and have much more to do with race and socioeconomics than sex. If you are medium or upper class, odds are you won't know a woman who has been raped and you certainly won't know anywhere near 1 in 3. Go ahead, try to name 1 woman that has been raped for every 3 that you know. Try to name 1 for every 6. The issue is poverty--the number one cause of crime in every country--and just what some people count as rape in their statistics. It's not uncommon, for example, for people to count sex someone has later regretted to be rape. Besides all that, rape isn't an issue of sexism; no man or woman ever says "I'm going to rape a woman/man because they are a woman/man."

Your examples of world leaders and such is also outdated, as the coming generations are slowly replacing the older ones where sexism was the norm. You will find more women joining positions of power in the government than men. There may be more men in your local government, but go ahead and have a look at the number of new men compared to women. This also applies to other jobs, thanks to the previously shown massive difference in higher education levels, where women are dominate. Men are also more inclined to want to be leaders, so the change over is slower than in other fields, such as education, where women are much more prevalent than men.

The pay difference is an old myth and has been busted several times. Not only does it not happen (ask a male or female employee you know in the same job title how much they each earn and see if it's different) but the way the numbers were calculated was bias as it didn't take into account job types. For example, women are generally more likely to want a career in teaching, nursing or child care than men are. These are all generally low paying jobs, so women on average earn less than men because of the most common jobs performed by each sex, which is, again, changing.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yup. Can't say for the preferential treatement but there are more women in university than men. What does this change? Not much but it doesn't look like Clearing the Eye is saying complete and utter bullshit.

I meant about sexism not being an issue in the west, not university admissions, sorry if I was unclear, I've edited my post.

Incidentally, as a black man who is well aware of the KKK, I find it interesting to hear about how women get the most verbal abuse.

I am not dismissing racism, nor do I think that any/all women must necessarily have it worse than any/all men, only that, all else being the same, women generally have it worse.

Or, to put it another way, women can be affected by racism (or classism, homophobia etc) the same as men, but have to deal with sexism on top of that.

 

[Kordie]

While I have seen statistics that women rate higher in spousal abuse, I have not seen anything to say that sexism is higher vs women in other areas. On a more closer related subject, bullying stats have the number 1 target being LGBT people. If you can produce some stats I would love to see them.

The classic example is rape. Somewhere between 1 and 3 and 1 in 6 (depending on which naiton you live in) women are raped in their lifetimes, almost always by men. The number of rales of men (also almost always by men) are much lower. Also, the conviction rate is appalling.

One of the other classic examples is the leaders of industry, finance, military, politics and religions groups in whichever nation you live in are almost certainly dominated by men (there are a very few exceptions to this). Politics is arguably the biggest one, as it's supposed to be representative (when you have a government panel to decide what rights women get in the US, for example, it's almost always made up exclusively of men).

Then there's stuff like how men earn on average more than women, though the amount varies alot between nations.

Violent crime rates against each gender are basically equal in canada;
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85f0033m/2010024/ct001-eng.htm

The report does include that sexual assault is higher vs women, physical assault is higher vs men. Overall, the violent assaults are equal.
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85f0033m/2010024/part-partie1-eng.htm

This is not to say that sexual assault is not an issue, and not to say that physical assault isnt one. The issue is violent crimes and how to stop it. When there is a proven difference in targets we treat them differently, back to the original post about actions online there is no proven difference in targets. Hence we should not treat them differently.

*edit Main point from this thread is not treating people differently based on gender. Rape is bad, don't rape anyone. period. regardless of male or female. Treat everyone the same based on the crime. Every victim of an internet troll gets treated in the same manner. Every victim of rape gets treated in the same manner. Or should we ignore cases of male rape because every man wants sex therefore cannot be raped.

 

[MammothBlade]

No doubt you've all noticed the flood of sexism related threads lately (*irony*). I'm not going to say I'm sick of them or that we need to stop talking about it. But I would like to get something across to everyone:

Women are not babies.

Now, I know you all know this, but very few people seem to remember it lately. What happens when someone makes a thread and wants to talk about how many names they were called in the latest Call of Duty? "You need thick skin to be on the internet." "Toughen up." "Get over it." I agree. People on the net can suck and the best thing to do is ignore them and take their words with a grain of salt. Is it nice that they are raging assholes? No. Should they be forced to stop? Not legally, no. But the game's owners can ban them. Point being, "It's the internet. What do you expect?" It's a well known and sad fact that people treat each other like crap online. I've been called names I didn't even know existed. My nickname for an entire round of TF2 was ****** after I lightly flirted with my boyfriend whom I was playing with. I've heard people get laughed at for simply sounding different. ****** is a favourite among trolls. We all know the shitty reality of a small but very vocal aspect of the online world and we all deal with it.

But what happens when someone talks about a woman being treated poorly in an online game or just online in general? That's right -- people flip out and the feminist and sexist arguments go on and on and on. This confuses me. See, if a guy gets treated like crap, that's just whatever. Happens all the time. Internet sucks, yeah? But if a woman is called names, it needs to stop right now? We need twenty pages of people gasping at a woman being slammed online? Boy, that's funny, 'cause I don't remember anyone caring when Joe Blogs down the road gets called a ******. I don't remember the Escapist article on Jim Smith being called ******. I seem to have forgotten the news report when Andy Mack was told to shut his fucking mouth every time he proposed a strategy in his Call of Duty match.

Women aren't babies.

Women don't need people to protect them.

Women don't need white knights.

Women don't need to be treated differently.

Women do need to be treated like a human being, not a gender.

It's no more wrong to call a woman a sexist slur than it is to call a man a dickhead. So stop treating women like helpless children that need to be shielded and start treating everyone equally. Assholes suck, regardless of who they're being assholes to. Block them. Move on. It's not sexism, it's treating women like they actually have a backbone of their own -- and they do. You don't need a penis to take an insult from a jerk and any single woman is just as capable of shrugging it off as a man. Gender is irrelevant.

Thoughts? Feelings? Share!

Isn't this just another form of white knighting? It won't matter until a girl comes out and says this.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Isn't this just another form of white knighting? It won't matter until a girl comes out and says this.

I don't think so, no. White knighting is treating women like they need help because they're women. I'm saying women aren't defenseless flowers and they don't need help any more than men do to combat trolls, so let's work together to stop people being assholes to everyone.

One sees a woman as a gender and treats them differently to men. The other sees women as just another human and treats them the same as men.

 

[Kordie]

Isn't this just another form of white knighting? It won't matter until a girl comes out and says this.

If all genders are equal does it matter who says it? Also I have female friends who share this point of view. Source shouldn't matter, the topic is how we treat people based on gender, not how gender influences our feelings on how we should treat people based on gender.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

How gender influences our feelings on how we should treat people based on gender.

Now that's a tongue twister, lol.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

SNIP

Im attacked on the internet sometimes. For winning, for being beaten, for arguing, for gloating. But ive never. Ever. Been attacked, kicked, messaged or stalked just for BEING online. Ive recieved 1 abusive message in XBL in 4 years of gaming.

http://fatuglyorslutty.com/page/31/

Im attacked because i made people angry and they are dicks. The women on THIS website are attacked JUST for being women. Just for saying anything. Or winning. For the audacity of playing. Thats a pretty rare occasion for men to be randomly attacked for saying one word or playing the game normally. It doesnt happen. Sure its just my experience but ive NEVER experienced this standard of abuse toward men for the same "crimes".

That said both are bad. But fuck i can take rage just because i win a few times maybe. But i wouldnt wanna put up with it endlessly. All. The. Time. Just for playing. Id never want to be part of a community like that.

The reason its important is exclusion.

Women are rare on XBOX live. Thus they are abused and mocked by people because they are a minority and they are cowardly. Thus less women play on XBOX live. Its important to fight this because its a cycle that drags the medium down by actively descriminating and attacking 50% of the population just because they are that 50%. Aimless dickery isnt as bad as focussed hatred.

 

[General Twinkletoes]

It's no more wrong to call a woman a sexist slur than it is to call a man a dickhead.

Dickhead is not a sexist slur.

So stop treating women like helpless children that need to be shielded and start treating everyone equally.

The problem is, a lot of those twats won't even listen to women.

Assholes suck, regardless of who they're being assholes to. Block them.

Did you see that article on this site about that person going in depth about stereotypic women characters in games? The amount of hate that she got? You can't block all those people.


And anyway - You say gender is irrelevant.
It should be, doesn't mean it is.

Also, shouldn't that mean that when a guy attacks a woman, the gender of the person defending shouldn't matter? If gender really is irrelevant, both sexes should tell that guy of for being an ass.

 

[Kordie]

Also, shouldn't that mean that when a guy attacks a woman, the gender of the person defending shouldn't matter? If gender really is irrelevant, both sexes should tell that guy of for being an ass.

Thats the point. Everyone should tell off the person attacking another person, and everyone should treat the attacked person the same way regardless of gender.

It's treating someone differently based on their gender that makes it stupid.

If a man hits me I'll hit him back, same thing if a women hits me. If I see a man beating up a woman I will stop it, same thing if its a woman beating up a man.

 

[scorptatious]

Well if women were babies I wouldn't find them attractive now would I? ;P

OT: I try to stay out of these issues if possible. When it comes down to it I just want to play the game.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Well if women were babies I wouldn't find them attractive now would I? ;P

Oh god, I hope you wouldn't XD

 

[Gorrila_thinktank]

I think that's the issue.

everyone wants to be liked, being a good person gets you liked. men are told that part of being good is being that 'white knight' as you called it. there is a larger group pf men then women in the gaming community therefore more men to jump up in deffence of women in an attempet to prove they are good poeple. the westren world also feeds its men a diet of social engenering that sets them up with a mind set that they must sacrifice to prove themselves men. part of this is takeing the ripping and the insults. what we need is for women to attempet the white knight mind set. this will allow for balance.

 

[itsthesheppy]

((Captcha issues somehow made me double-post. I wish I knew why.))

 

[itsthesheppy]

If you interpret people who champion women's issues as treating them like babies, then I'm afraid you're still not getting it. You weren't getting it in the other thread, and I don't think you're getting it here.

I think the central issue with why you are consistently left of the target here is because you really haven't taken the effort to view things from their perspective. In all honesty, I get the impression that many women don't necessarily want or need you or me or anyone else to 'defend' them and aren't asking for that. They just want to be treated with kindness and respect, and to be depicted fairly in pop culture, and to have their feelings understood.

Simply pointing out that there is gender disparity, unfairness, or insensitivity is not the same as being a 'White Knight'. It's about being observant, and concerned about the values and opinions being represented in our culture. If you feel that such observations are an attack on you that you need defend yourself against, then the question you need to ask is why you think that is. Do some of the complaints hit close to home? I am using the word 'you' here somewhat more generally, and not addressing any single person.

Women the world over are not waiting in hope that I, personally, come to their defense; any such feeling on my part actually does more harm than good. Far from what pop culture has been telling me since I was an infant, just because I'm a guy doesn't mean I have to come to the rescue, and it doesn't mean it's my problem to solve, and it doesn't mean that I need to ride to heroic defense of the poor, powerless women. My job is to understand what their issues are, and think about how I, personally, can be a better person, offend and upset fewer people, and contribute to a more inclusive, nonviolent, understanding society.

That's not babying people. That's being a good member of civilization.

((Also, captcha somehow crashed my OS. Twice. What?))

 

[manic_depressive13]

We've got a 20 page thread going now because some people hurt a woman's feelings.

Could you please link me this thread? The only 20 page thread I can see is the forum rules.