Women's rights

[Beryl77]

I myself am not a feminist but I know that pretty much every group has its extremists. It's hard to avoid that if a group grows very large. They don't represent the whole group, so I don't think you should judge them all because of a few, who act stupid. It's like saying that all muslims are bad because some of them are terrorists.

 

[rawrmonsta]

Before I start, I am a guy and also not in the least sexist but do you think the feminists of today have more of a bad reputation than they did a hundred years ago?

No. A hundred years ago they were ridiculed, insulted and considered to be deviants whose demand for basic rights went against everything a woman was supposed to be. If anything, the reputation of feminism has improved enormously.

Now that is a woman with clear issues.

Most of which have pretty clearly defined roots in the society we live in.

I wouldn't agree with her wording, but it takes a certain degree of reactionary denial to pretend there is nothing wrong with the prevalence of rape in our society and certain people's attitudes towards it.

Male on mae rape is perhaps just as large a problem in the US due to prison rape nobody does anything to stop.

I believe in equal rights for women but sometimes worry that in US culture girls are now valued more than boys and the pendulum swung too far the other way. More females than males graduate college now, especially in the black community, and I worry our school systems are set up to be too female-centric at the expense of our young men, who are still forced to sign up fr the draft where women are not- yet as they enjoy nearly equal rights in the armed forces I feel they should be forced to fill out a selective service card as young men must. In recent polls here more families say they want baby girls more than boys, I fear we are devaluing our sons now after decades of devaluing our daughters.

This is basically my feelings as-well. There is a host of little areas where women have it better. and Then a few areas that have just been blown wayyyyy out of proportion.

And the real scarey part is feminism is active and making changes for women when they already (while debatable) have it as good if not better. yet there is no male equivalent being taken even remotely as seriously.

Also on the prison rape thing.

There are estimated to be over 300,000 male rapes per year in American prisons and jails.

Meanwhile A United Nations statistical report compiled from government sources showed that more than 250,000 cases of male-female rape or attempted rape were recorded by police annually. The reported data covered 65 countries.

 

[Hides His Eyes]

I've never had the pleasure of encountering an extreme feminist.

I think they do more harm than good. I know one used to drink in my sisters local until she got into a heated debate with my sister over her letting my brother in law pay for everything (it was my sisters birthday, he took her out for a drink) so my sister beat the shit out of her.

Thats as close as i've come to one.

Thats about as close as i'd like to ever get.

Oh hold on, I tell a lie.

I read an article from some feminist that claimed all men support rape.

http://evebitfirst.wordpress.com/2011/05/18/a-man-is-a-rape-supporter-if/

Now that is a woman with clear issues.

I'd like to thank you for this link. I'm following it up with a kind of sick fascination that verges on sheer "you-MUST-be-a-troll" amusement. XD

 

[Hides His Eyes]

Before I start, I am a guy and also not in the least sexist but do you think the feminists of today have more of a bad reputation than they did a hundred years ago?

No. A hundred years ago they were ridiculed, insulted and considered to be deviants whose demand for basic rights went against everything a woman was supposed to be. If anything, the reputation of feminism has improved enormously.

Now that is a woman with clear issues.

Most of which have pretty clearly defined roots in the society we live in.

I wouldn't agree with her wording, but it takes a certain degree of reactionary denial to pretend there is nothing wrong with the prevalence of rape in our society and certain people's attitudes towards it.

Male on mae rape is perhaps just as large a problem in the US due to prison rape nobody does anything to stop.

I believe in equal rights for women but sometimes worry that in US culture girls are now valued more than boys and the pendulum swung too far the other way. More females than males graduate college now, especially in the black community, and I worry our school systems are set up to be too female-centric at the expense of our young men, who are still forced to sign up fr the draft where women are not- yet as they enjoy nearly equal rights in the armed forces I feel they should be forced to fill out a selective service card as young men must. In recent polls here more families say they want baby girls more than boys, I fear we are devaluing our sons now after decades of devaluing our daughters.

This is basically my feelings as-well. There is a host of little areas where women have it better. and Then a few areas that have just been blown wayyyyy out of proportion.

And the real scarey part is feminism is active and making changes for women when they already (while debatable) have it as good if not better. yet there is no male equivalent being taken even remotely as seriously.

Also on the prison rape thing.

There are estimated to be over 300,000 male rapes per year in American prisons and jails.

Meanwhile A United Nations statistical report compiled from government sources showed that more than 250,000 cases of male-female rape or attempted rape were recorded by police annually. The reported data covered 65 countries.

Yeah but it's thought that the vast majority of male-female rapes go unreported. Not to support that crazy woman's list in the slightest, but there is definitely something wrong with the current popular definition of "rape" which very often skews things in the perpetrator's favour. The problem is the idea that a "rape" is when a stranger jumps out from behind a bush with a knife and rapes a woman walking through a park or something. There are way too many people to whom it wouldn't even occur that a rape could happen in a home, between people who know each other, even a husband and wife. And if rape is part of an ongoing domestic abuse scenario then it's MUCH less likely to be reported than an isolated crime committed by a stranger, because a woman in a domestic abuse scenario might, tragically, feel she depends on the person who is abusing her, and so is too frightened to report it. She might have been taken in by the same faulty definition I'm describing and not even realise she's been raped. I don't think you can trust the statistics on this issue.

But that's not to belittle male on male rape, especially in prisons; that is yet another under-acknowledged crime.

As for feminism in general... I still don't think things are totally how they should be. Men still earn more on average, but for me the whole "objectification of women" issue is more an aesthetic problem for me than a political one. When I see yet another action film with yet another hot-in-a-totally-bland-and-predictable-way chick as the under-written, personality-less love interest for yet another big capable muscly dude, it pisses me off because it's lazy and dull and over-familiar, as much as because it perpetuates the idea of the woman as passive, a victim, etc.

So yeah. Things are still not equal and I can sort of understand why someone would still be a feminist today... BUT when I compare it to all the other noble causes one could devote themselves to... well, women's rights are a long way down the priority list, for me.

 

[iLikeHippos]

(Male, teenager. Just so you would not think of me any other way)

I have to laugh at the first 4 pages on this topic, since 80% of it includes a serious debate on the interpretation of a peculiar picture introduced at the beginning by another fellow poster, only remotely stable towards the subject.
It's like the topic itself was too dull, so they decided to derail it all.

On my own two cents, I'm all for respecting and understanding our differences, handling them in the most unbiased, acceptable way possible, and equality wherever it fits, and wherever it is nothing but love-caring justice.
However, I find myself not able to cope with certain terminologies of the feminist movements demands, since true equality would be impossible. That would demands we could live on the exact same terms, which we obviously cannot. This isn't exactly the perfect world.

There's also some points which bothers me very much from overcompensating demands of 'equality'. One topic which I feel very much strongly about is the right of childcare.
As a male, I have - NO - right to see any child of mine, if the woman of my breeding choice were to say otherwise. She has - ALL - right in the world to steal my offspring, followed by a long and obnoxious spending plan which is completely mandatory on my part.
If we were to put this in terms deemed sensitive to... Slow people, let's say I possess a batch of bread-batter. I wish to use her oven for the making. When it's finally done, she has all right to that bread, because she happened to own the oven.
This mentioned example is far away from any justice nor equality, the way I observe it.

That's the information I've summed up on the subject, though. I hope I'm wrong, because it's all terrible.

On another note, I believe the feminism movement should focus their higher regard to the middle-east, where a woman has her options far more limited than in the west.
Right now in the west, I feel it's all but a campaign of nit-picking details, which you are able to live and cope with.

 

[rawrmonsta]

Before I start, I am a guy and also not in the least sexist but do you think the feminists of today have more of a bad reputation than they did a hundred years ago?

No. A hundred years ago they were ridiculed, insulted and considered to be deviants whose demand for basic rights went against everything a woman was supposed to be. If anything, the reputation of feminism has improved enormously.

Now that is a woman with clear issues.

Most of which have pretty clearly defined roots in the society we live in.

I wouldn't agree with her wording, but it takes a certain degree of reactionary denial to pretend there is nothing wrong with the prevalence of rape in our society and certain people's attitudes towards it.

Male on mae rape is perhaps just as large a problem in the US due to prison rape nobody does anything to stop.

I believe in equal rights for women but sometimes worry that in US culture girls are now valued more than boys and the pendulum swung too far the other way. More females than males graduate college now, especially in the black community, and I worry our school systems are set up to be too female-centric at the expense of our young men, who are still forced to sign up fr the draft where women are not- yet as they enjoy nearly equal rights in the armed forces I feel they should be forced to fill out a selective service card as young men must. In recent polls here more families say they want baby girls more than boys, I fear we are devaluing our sons now after decades of devaluing our daughters.

This is basically my feelings as-well. There is a host of little areas where women have it better. and Then a few areas that have just been blown wayyyyy out of proportion.

And the real scarey part is feminism is active and making changes for women when they already (while debatable) have it as good if not better. yet there is no male equivalent being taken even remotely as seriously.

Also on the prison rape thing.

There are estimated to be over 300,000 male rapes per year in American prisons and jails.

Meanwhile A United Nations statistical report compiled from government sources showed that more than 250,000 cases of male-female rape or attempted rape were recorded by police annually. The reported data covered 65 countries.

Yeah but it's thought that the vast majority of male-female rapes go unreported. Not to support that crazy woman's list in the slightest, but there is definitely something wrong with the current popular definition of "rape" which very often skews things in the perpetrator's favour. The problem is the idea that a "rape" is when a stranger jumps out from behind a bush with a knife and rapes a woman walking through a park or something. There are way too many people to whom it wouldn't even occur that a rape could happen in a home, between people who know each other, even a husband and wife. And if rape is part of an ongoing domestic abuse scenario then it's MUCH less likely to be reported than an isolated crime committed by a stranger, because a woman in a domestic abuse scenario might, tragically, feel she depends on the person who is abusing her, and so is too frightened to report it. She might have been taken in by the same faulty definition I'm describing and not even realise she's been raped. I don't think you can trust the statistics on this issue.

But that's not to belittle male on male rape, especially in prisons; that is yet another under-acknowledged crime.

As for feminism in general... I still don't think things are totally how they should be. Men still earn more on average, but for me the whole "objectification of women" issue is more an aesthetic problem for me than a political one. When I see yet another action film with yet another hot-in-a-totally-bland-and-predictable-way chick as the under-written, personality-less love interest for yet another big capable muscly dude, it pisses me off because it's lazy and dull and over-familiar, as much as because it perpetuates the idea of the woman as passive, a victim, etc.

So yeah. Things are still not equal and I can sort of understand why someone would still be a feminist today... BUT when I compare it to all the other noble causes one could devote themselves to... well, women's rights are a long way down the priority list, for me.

I see where our coming from on the rape thing. and I'm not saying its not a problem. But making it easier to convict men of rape has fostered what people are calling a "false rape society". Where if a women really wanted to could frame you for rape and the rape shield laws in place to encourage women to come forward protect them from prosecution and have real risk of convicting innocent men just because she said so. I believe there was one case a while ago where a woman accused a man of raping her when she had made like 5 claims about different men before and those laws stopped that information being considered in this case. which is kind of shocking.

Long story short. rape is an issue for sure but making it easier to convict is causing more problems than its solving. and might I sound just a little assholeish in saying because its a negative affect affecting primarily men they dont care? just a thought...

Men earn more on average for a reason. Women prefer flexible jobs over high paying ones. women are less aggressive in asking for pay rises. women are much more likely to forsake career for family than men are. And despite all those things women do they are still only payed slightly less than men overall. that is fair.

What isn't fair is using that as an excuse to steal literally millions of dollars from male based funds putting them back to work to "correct" this "injustice".

http://dontmarry.wordpress.com/2009/06/23/no-country-for-burly-men/

It is things like this that leave me convinced that the feminist movement is manipulative and wrong. if you want equal rights good for you! but practice what you preach. =/

 

[rawrmonsta]

I'd also encourage some of the people reading this forum to have a look at this site http://www.avoiceformen.com/mission-and-values/about/ . Its got some rather eye opening facts on there (supported by actual research).

 

[Hides His Eyes]

Before I start, I am a guy and also not in the least sexist but do you think the feminists of today have more of a bad reputation than they did a hundred years ago?

No. A hundred years ago they were ridiculed, insulted and considered to be deviants whose demand for basic rights went against everything a woman was supposed to be. If anything, the reputation of feminism has improved enormously.

Now that is a woman with clear issues.

Most of which have pretty clearly defined roots in the society we live in.

I wouldn't agree with her wording, but it takes a certain degree of reactionary denial to pretend there is nothing wrong with the prevalence of rape in our society and certain people's attitudes towards it.

Male on mae rape is perhaps just as large a problem in the US due to prison rape nobody does anything to stop.

I believe in equal rights for women but sometimes worry that in US culture girls are now valued more than boys and the pendulum swung too far the other way. More females than males graduate college now, especially in the black community, and I worry our school systems are set up to be too female-centric at the expense of our young men, who are still forced to sign up fr the draft where women are not- yet as they enjoy nearly equal rights in the armed forces I feel they should be forced to fill out a selective service card as young men must. In recent polls here more families say they want baby girls more than boys, I fear we are devaluing our sons now after decades of devaluing our daughters.

This is basically my feelings as-well. There is a host of little areas where women have it better. and Then a few areas that have just been blown wayyyyy out of proportion.

And the real scarey part is feminism is active and making changes for women when they already (while debatable) have it as good if not better. yet there is no male equivalent being taken even remotely as seriously.

Also on the prison rape thing.

There are estimated to be over 300,000 male rapes per year in American prisons and jails.

Meanwhile A United Nations statistical report compiled from government sources showed that more than 250,000 cases of male-female rape or attempted rape were recorded by police annually. The reported data covered 65 countries.

Yeah but it's thought that the vast majority of male-female rapes go unreported. Not to support that crazy woman's list in the slightest, but there is definitely something wrong with the current popular definition of "rape" which very often skews things in the perpetrator's favour. The problem is the idea that a "rape" is when a stranger jumps out from behind a bush with a knife and rapes a woman walking through a park or something. There are way too many people to whom it wouldn't even occur that a rape could happen in a home, between people who know each other, even a husband and wife. And if rape is part of an ongoing domestic abuse scenario then it's MUCH less likely to be reported than an isolated crime committed by a stranger, because a woman in a domestic abuse scenario might, tragically, feel she depends on the person who is abusing her, and so is too frightened to report it. She might have been taken in by the same faulty definition I'm describing and not even realise she's been raped. I don't think you can trust the statistics on this issue.

But that's not to belittle male on male rape, especially in prisons; that is yet another under-acknowledged crime.

As for feminism in general... I still don't think things are totally how they should be. Men still earn more on average, but for me the whole "objectification of women" issue is more an aesthetic problem for me than a political one. When I see yet another action film with yet another hot-in-a-totally-bland-and-predictable-way chick as the under-written, personality-less love interest for yet another big capable muscly dude, it pisses me off because it's lazy and dull and over-familiar, as much as because it perpetuates the idea of the woman as passive, a victim, etc.

So yeah. Things are still not equal and I can sort of understand why someone would still be a feminist today... BUT when I compare it to all the other noble causes one could devote themselves to... well, women's rights are a long way down the priority list, for me.

I see where our coming from on the rape thing. and I'm not saying its not a problem. But making it easier to convict men of rape has fostered what people are calling a "false rape society". Where if a women really wanted to could frame you for rape and the rape shield laws in place to encourage women to come forward protect them from prosecution and have real risk of convicting innocent men just because she said so. I believe there was one case a while ago where a woman accused a man of raping her when she had made like 5 claims about different men before and those laws stopped that information being considered in this case. which is kind of shocking.

Long story short. rape is an issue for sure but making it easier to convict is causing more problems than its solving. and might I sound just a little assholeish in saying because its a negative affect affecting primarily men they dont care? just a thought...

Men earn more on average for a reason. Women prefer flexible jobs over high paying ones. women are less aggressive in asking for pay rises. women are much more likely to forsake career for family than men are. And despite all those things women do they are still only payed slightly less than men overall. that is fair.

What isn't fair is using that as an excuse to steal literally millions of dollars from male based funds putting them back to work to "correct" this "injustice".

http://dontmarry.wordpress.com/2009/06/23/no-country-for-burly-men/

It is things like this that leave me convinced that the feminist movement is manipulative and wrong. if you want equal rights good for you! but practice what you preach. =/

Well, you can't make progress without someone taking advantage of the changes you've made, so I guess it's a balancing act, like anything. But to be honest, at least in the UK where I live, I think "false rape society" is a bit over the top. I would rather live in a society where actual rapes are reported and punished reliably, even if it means some false accusations take place. Of course, the real answer is to make the extra effort and spend the extra resources to have it both ways: some kind of apparatus for identifying and stopping false accusations is needed.

 

[Zeriah]

I just can't help but laugh at some peoples' reactions to that political cartoon. If anything it is pro-feminism.

It is using the age old, tried and true sheep wolf idiom. IT'S NOT MEANT TO BE SEXIST PERIOD. Read up about the 500 year old idiom that everybody over the age of 10 should be aware of, it is not showing that women are passive sheeps. You are looking at a female's (and a feminist btw) drawing style and seeing things that aren't there. You can look too much into anything and make some seriously absurd accusations, but it's irrelevant if they were never meant to convey them. It is simply showing that some misandrists are hiding behind feminism to achieve their own personal, unjust goals of female superiority. The cartoon is clearly agreeing with feminism as an ideal but showing that the movement is being derailed by said misandrists. It could not be more obvious people.

As to the topic, yes I agree with feminism (as its true ideal of EQUALITY BETWEEN GENDERS) and equality or humanism as a whole (yes shockingly there are some instances where men get the short of the the straw, such as child custody in divorce, parental leave, physical assaults where men are demonized if they defend themselves from a physically aggressive woman etc). There are still a large number of issues where woman are not equal and that should change! Having said that the misandrist extremists or female superiority supporters who hide behind feminism are batshit insane as far as I'm concerned and they are part of the reason why so many people misunderstand feminism.

-Edited a bit-

 

[ShadowKatt]

With some of the insane faminists that are out there today, I'm just waiting for one of them to release an airborne virus with a genetic trigger for the Y chromosome. I'm thinking an ebola varient, using the genes from the Y chromosome to complete its RNA strand and wipe out the majority of the male population of the world.

And inevitably, it'll adapt like all viruses do and then the human race will be extinct and we'll all truely get what we deserve.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Its simple to me one must have the same rights and rules as another to be equal other wise you are sexist and racist.

 

[Ledan]

The pink fluffy nice sheep represents the woman, saying that a 'good' woman is one who is agreeable, attractive and placid.

NO. (I have been reading this forum, and I am getting really annoyed about this point)

The SHEEP DOES NOT REPRESENT HOW WE THINK A GOOD WOMAN SHOULD BE.
THE SHEEP REPRESENTS most feminists. It is not trying to say that "women should be sheep" or that women have sheepish qualities. Or that feminists follow a sheepherder. Nor that they are stupid or ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
The sheep is there to show that most feminists are not:
The crazy feminazi this thread is talking about. Feminazi's, mysogonists and the sort of people who rave about a guy opening the door for them are the "wolves in sheeps clothing". They label themselves as feminists, because then they can talk about how much they hate men.
THEY ARE NOT FEMINISTS as the picture clearly shows. They are wolves, bad people, female dogs, etc.

If you are getting so bleeding worked up about the normal feminists being a sheep, then just redraw the picture to what it actually represents:

A normal woman (imagine that she is standing there instead of the sheep), who is talking about equality. (maybe a sign or something for equal pay)

Next to her is another woman, wearing a similar woman on her head (with the equality sign), but this woman with a woman on her head is shouting: "MEN ARE IDITOS! WOMEN SHOULD RULE THE WORLD".

So my point is: The sheep is not representing sheepishness or placidness or any characteristics of a sheep. That is not the authors intent. He/she is saying using the idiom of "a wolf in sheeps clothing" to show that these crazy "women are superior" people are USING the feminist label.
They are not saying that women shouldn't be wolves, or that women should be sheep. They are saying that mysogonist women use the feminist label to hide behind.

Same point to you.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Same point to you.

I don't have that problem with this picture I was merely explaining how it could be misconstrued which is what I figured you guys were disagreeing over.

You are missing the point that some people looking at that picture could misunderstand the artwork to say that good women are placid etc.

Even though that is not what the picture is trying to portray.

If you see my point...

 

[Ledan]

This clearly is not a reference to submissive women, it's clearly a reference to a very well known idiom.

So why is the sheep pink and neotenic?

Does the idiom say that sheep are like that, or did the artist inflect it? Why?

If the purpose was simply to represent the idiom, why the fuck should anyone care? Why has this picture even been posted here, on a discussion about women's rights, and not just distributed to preschoolers to explain the idiom?
left preschool.

THE REASON: Feminists are not misogynistic. Misogynistic women portray themselves as feminists.

Both are women, hence the feminization of the sheep and the wolf.
Why is it here? Because the OP is talking about how they feel that feminism has moved from equality to misogynistic women looking for ways to suppress men. Feminism is not about that. Misogynistic women are not feminists. Thus you probably won't find an actual feminists who says that women are superior to men. Feminists don't think that. Misogynistic women do think that. Misogynistic women do say that. And these women, if asked, would call themselves feminists and rationalize their hate for men by saying that they are only looking for equality.

 

[Ledan]

Same point to you.

I don't have that problem with this picture I was merely explaining how it could be misconstrued which is what I figured you guys were disagreeing over.

You are missing the point that some people looking at that picture could misunderstand the artwork to say that good women are placid etc.

Even though that is not what the picture is trying to portray.

If you see my point...

Totally see your point mate (or matey?).

I understand that this picture could be misunderstood. I can see that it has been misunderstood by other people in this forum. I am not trying to attack you, I was merely testy over reading argument over this picture (theEvilcat in particular pushed my buttons since they refused to see the logic in the other posts).

However, I don't think that was the artists point. I don't truly know, but I think they were going more for the idiom thing rather than trying to degrade women.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

However, I don't think that was the artists point. I don't truly know, but I think they were going more for the idiom thing rather than trying to degrade women.

I don't think that was the artists point either but if someone was going to take that picture and say it was offensive that's what they would pick on.

The very women who it is getting at most likely...