WW2 had two sides. Why do we never talk about the other one...

[Nickolai77]

I did a big essay on the atomic bombs and actually concluded that they were in part necessary to end the world war when it did. Still, the act of bombing any civilians is pretty darn unethical in itself, but at least i understand why the Americans did it.

 

[Diligent]

Well, in 7th grade, we had an exercise where we had to decide whether to simply drop the bombs, killing millions (am I right in saying that? I don't know the numbers)

It is closer to an estimated 200,000, give or take 50,000.
What a horrible answer...that's like a stadium full of people unaccounted for.

 

[smearyllama]

Well, in 7th grade, we had an exercise where we had to decide whether to simply drop the bombs, killing millions (am I right in saying that? I don't know the numbers)

Within the first few months of the bombings, a combined total of approximately 250,000 people died. As for the amount of people who died as a result of radiation sickness in the years following, I couldn't say, but it certainly never entered into the "millions"

Ok, I'm sorry, I'm an idiot, and I'll edit that right now.

 

[smearyllama]

Well, in 7th grade, we had an exercise where we had to decide whether to simply drop the bombs, killing millions (am I right in saying that? I don't know the numbers)

It is closer to an estimated 200,000, give or take 50,000.
What a horrible answer...that's like a stadium full of people unaccounted for.

Ok, I fixed that.
Sorry for being an idiot.

 

[TheAmazingHobo]

From what I've heard from Japanese friends, they don't mention WW2 at all, really, in Japan, in schools. It's not taught. They don't bring it up. Japanese tourists have come to Australia and been totally shocked to learn that Japanese submarines were ever in that area. And Japanese war veterans don't discuss what happened with their families, or in public.

It's like a black ink spot on a white dress that nobody acknowledges, because it's more polite to say nothing.

That is just sad.
And wrong. Children need to be educated about this stuff. Not to force them to feel guilt or shame about it, but make them realize that yes, they do a have a responsibility to not allow something like it to happen again in their lifetime.

As for the actual bombings, I´m not going to touch that one. It just doesn´t feel right to me to discuss these types of events on an internet forum.
If you really want to learn about it, don´t go to wikipedia, go to a library.
Personally, I´d recommend "Slaughterhouse Five" as a start.
It´s even fun to read.

 

[Korolev]

Well, in 7th grade, we had an exercise where we had to decide whether to simply drop the bombs, killing millions (am I right in saying that? I don't know the numbers)

It is closer to an estimated 200,000, give or take 50,000.
What a horrible answer...that's like a stadium full of people unaccounted for.

Yes, most estimates are that 200,000 people died directly due to the blasts, either from radiation or burns. A sizeable number.

But even more died due to the "conventional" bombing involving incendiaries against Japanese towns, whose houses were mostly made of wood and bamboo (which is actually a very good building material in many cases). Virtually entire cities were burned to ashes by conventional bombs.

And yet it's not as many as would have died if the US had invaded by land. Again, the head of the Japanese navy at the time clearly stated that he wanted to use 20 million civilians in a suicide attack that he felt "sure" would repel the Americans. The army STILL wanted to fight after the second bombing. It was only when the Emperor put his foot down and called for surrender that they finally did (and even then, elements of the army tried to stage an unsuccessful coup). They could have surrendered after the first bomb went off. They didn't. They didn't want to surrender because they thought the US only had one bomb.

And I stress that the leadership of Japan had to change. If the US had agreed to a conditional surrender that would have preserved the military leadership, Japan would not have changed - it would still be a racially fanatic, militarism regime, similar to what North Korea is now.

The people who are responsible for the deaths of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not the Americans, but the Japanese militarists themselves. They had the option to surrender before the bombs were dropped, and after the first one was. They didn't. They were perfectly willing, and said so, to send all of Japan to hell to preserve their racial pride. Only the Emperor prevented that, but he is also responsible for the deaths of his own civilians, because he did not surrender faster.

Of course the deaths of all those civilians is tragic. Probably more would have died if they had invaded by land - on both sides. When conventional bombing was reducing their cities to ashes, did the Japanese military want to surrender? No - it forced thousands of young men to commit suicide by driving their planes into US ships.

The Japanese military was virtually insane and fanatic beyond all belief. Just as you couldn't reason with the Waffen-SS, you couldn't reason with the Japanese military leadership.

War is bad. It is NEVER a good thing if Civilians die. The Bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima should never be celebrated. It should not be a source of shame for the Americans, but it should not be a source of celebration either. It should be looked upon sadly, as a necessary task, one violent and horrible, but necessary all the same.

And it should serve as a reminder to the surviving Japanese militarists (and a great deal of them are still alive to this day) of where they led their country. The inferno of Hiroshima rests on Hirohito's, and Hideki Tojo's heads. Not Truman's, not Oppenheimer's, not the Allies.

 

[Frozen Donkey Wheel2]

I don't know what school you're going to, but in my High School history class, we actually had a pretty in depth discussion about the morality of dropping the bombs.

By the way, at the time, the Japanese government was literally handing out sharp sticks to civilians and telling them to attack any invading American soldiers. To clarify: They were telling them to DIE attacking American soldiers. And a bunch of POW civilians(who were being treated just fine) had already committed mass suicide on a small, American-occupied Japanese island just because the government said so, so......yeah.

 

[Tsaba]

I wondered what they taught japanese students about Hiroshima and Nagaski. What in gods name do you say to those kids.

"Two cities were vaporised but we totally deserved it, you can't really be sad, we were the bad guys"
"Two cities were vaporised but we were actually in the right, they were the bad guys, now you can feel sorry for them"

I cant really see either of these being acceptable... I dont know what I'd say.

H

The Japanese had the... "honor," if you want to call it that, to fight man woman and child to the very last person, they where going to drive boats laden with explosives into landing craft, they where going to ambush troops and blow themselves up, the estimated causualty rate for the US would have been rediculous, do you understand where I am going here? THEY WHERE GOING TO FIGHT TO THE DEATH, AN ENTIRE RACE WAS GOING TO BE WIPED OUT. so yea, vaporize two cities to save more, it's an ugly thing to say, but, things worked out in the end.

 

[lukemdizzle]

Im from america and believe me, I agree that dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was one of the most horrific acts in human history. some people think it was the right thing to do because they are blinded by irrational nationalism (see fox news crowd). those who do disagree with dropping the bombs don't often like to talk about it the same way other countries tend not to bring up atrocities that they have committed. In my opinion the U.S. should step up and recognize the opposing viewpoint. I also think it is counterproductive to go blaming all americans for there insensitivity. Generalizing is always bad and my generation had nothing to do with WWII anyway, though my grandpa who fought in the battle of Manila would agree that the Bombs should never have been dropped without at least a warning.

 

[Korolev]

Because everyone seems to forget that maybe the normal people on the other side didn't want it.

German Soldier gets shot in WWII? here's how a lot of people view it: he isn't a normal man who fought out of fear of the repirsal he would face if he refused, he wasn't a father and husband who wanted what was best for his family, he wasn't a man who knew nothing of Hitler's atrocities and he wasn't a man who hated Hitler but felt that invasion would ruin what he held dearest to him back home. He wasn't a patriot who wanted to defend his home regardless of it's leadership, and he wasn't a man hoping to make a difference on the frontlines. He wasn't a man who rejected the Nazi ideals but just wanted to fight with his friends and help make sure they all came back alive, and he wasn't a man who just didn't understand the implications of what he was doing.

No, in the eyes of society, he is a villian who deserved to die. That one little man, caught up on the wrong side of one of the very few "just" wars out of sheer circumstance. People will say "but anyone who agreed must be evil!" without thinking, "hey, maybe very few people actually agreed...". People will say "You should never go along with that sort of thing!" without ever thinking "hey, maybe they didn't know what Hitler was up to, and didn't realize he was such a bad guy!". People will say "you should resist tyranny and evil, and fight for what you believe in!" without ever having felt fear for their lives, their families, their homes before in their entire lives.

You know what? fuck Hitler. Fuck all those who really believed in his aims. But I agree with the OP: It's about time that the hardship and loss faced by the everyday, average citizen of an Axis nations was recognised, because they were victims too. Hell, if we will celebrate the victories of the men fighting for Stalin, then why not? I'm not saying we should go "booyah, the Axis fought so fucking well, what respect we should have for them!" but that we should simply take a step back and see the guy on the side of evil in this fight. Just see if he really hates jews like his leader, see if he would really sanction murder like his leader, see if he wants to fight this war... because it's very likely he didn't. And that's not even mentioning the civillians...

*snip*

No-one is disputing the morality of the motives and actions of the Axis leaders. It's the attitude towards the regular people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time and found themselves stuck on the evil side of a war they were forced to fight in that's the issue.

Yes, that is true. Many Germans and Japanese soldiers were not Nazis or fanatics. And their deaths were tragic. I should have been more clear - not every German soldier was a Nazi. Nazis were members of the Nazi party, whereas German soldiers were members of the army, not the Nazi party.

Is it sad that many Germans and Japanese died during the war? Yes, absolutely. I mean, many of them were friends with the Americans/British/Chinese/Russians before the war. The Germans and the Japanese aren't any more evil than any other race or group of people. And the amount of civilians who died on both sides was awful. I have read accounts of what the Red Army did in Berlin after the War was over. It was sickening. It literally induced nausea within me. Not as bad as what the Germans did, but as I have said, two wrongs do not make a right. And the USSR also invaded Poland.

I've watched "grave of the fireflies" (which is a film EVERYONE should watch). I'm not a celebrator of war. Never have been. I've never agreed with those who "celebrate" the atomic bombing of Nagasaki. I've never agreed with those who treat the bombing as a source of shame either. War is hell, and horrific things happen in war. What the allies did was necessary, and I defend it from that viewpoint. But it shouldn't be "celebrated".

I hate Hideki Tojo. I hate Hitler. I don't hate Hanz or Misaki, or any of the millions of ordinary civilians who weren't Hitler or Tojo. I wish they didn't have to die.

But the blood of those civilians is on the hands of their leaders. Not the allies.

I remember seeing a clip of the US soldiers rounding up the civilians on Okinawa after the war. I remember seeing a young Japanese girl, maybe 5 years old, shivering and crying alone. Because the Japanese militarists convinced the population that they had to commit suicide to avoid the "barbarous American apes" as they put it. That young girl was the only survivor of her family - the others killed themselves in the shelters, or threw themselves off cliffs. Somehow she survived. The clip showed her crying and looking for her mother. That stuff stays in your head.

I'm not a jingoist. I fully recognize that the Japanese and the Germans were humans.

And that makes me hate the leadership of the Axis powers even more.

 

[Nagisa94]

The movie "Letters From Iwo Jima" does well to show the Japanese side of the war. How most Imperial soldiers were just simple conscripts, who wanted nothing more than to go home to their families.

 

[Ace of Spades]

That would be an interesting topic for a game, being a German soldier who didn't really know why they fought and just got swept up in the combat.

 

[Arsen]

Hollywood has a good amount of Jews living there, both past and present.
A good amount of "the opposite perspective" isn't portrayed in movies, historical films, war films, etc.
The Jews villain Germany. They also have this long-lasting belief that the world hates them. Unfortunately though, given the philosophy of their religious nature and a sense of self-catering it's no wonder they are often seen with such antipathy.
If a war film ever came out, being produced in Hollywood in American soil, the Jewish leaders would have a fit with the word "anti-semetic" because they believe their ancestry is more important than the human race as a whole.

They see themselves as the only people who died in the last Great War. Bottom Line.

No...I do not hate Jews, nor am I an anti-semite. But it disturbs me how greatly they care only about their own, refuse to respect the past, and move on and accept warfare as that. Warfare.

And can someone please, stop saying "The Germans were forced to...". They were defending their damn country regardless if they were the aggressor or not.

 

[Numb1lp]

The problem lies with the fact that they chose civilian cities, not high priority military targets.

Oh, but they both had "military factories"

 

[IBlackKiteI]

...And what they did to prisoners - well, it was only a very slight shade less evil than what the Nazis did.

I disagree with this.

I understand if you mean the prisoners in the concentration camps, but actual prisoners of war were apparently treated quite similarly to how the allies treated theirs, assuming they took them as prisoners in the first place.

As for Hitler, he was batshit crazy, no dening that.
But as for the German people themselves? Often not so much.
Even his own generals werent too keen on his ideas of genocide.

And Japanese soldiers? There were indoctrinated with this...warrior ethic, they were fanatical.

The movie "Letters From Iwo Jima" does well to show the Japanese side of the war. How most Imperial soldiers were just simple conscripts, who wanted nothing more than to go home to their families.

Yeah, but they were also told to prioritise enemy medics and to fight to kill as many enemies as possible, rather than an overall strategy.

A damn good film yes, but after seeing it I'm still not sure what to think of the Japanese in that time.

Of course you cant know exactly how it was unless you were there,
and as some famous guy many years ago said (was it Churchill?) 'History is Written by the Victor.'

Though I think everyone can agree that war just sucks.

 

[Reep]

I remember reading a book on true war stories and recounts and one of those recounts was of a Japanese doctor working in a hospital near where one of the bombs went off. He then went on to talk about how some of the planes bombed part of the hospital and he continued onto how he began helping and treating anyone he could find who got injured by the blast.

Also the Germans were just the same as any other soldier, in the same book as above there was another story of Russian and German soldiers putting down their weapons and celebrating Christmas or something like that, i can't remember much from that one.

 

[HerrBobo]

Snip

Not enough time has passed for use to really get an objective view of WW2 (or WW1 for that matter). It is still in living memory. The ramafactions of the war are still being felt and its shadow still dictates much of world poilcy, both internal and international. Ultimately the pain of the war is still too near, thus a netural history of the conflict has not been recorded. Give it another 100 years.

Put it this way; in Berlin there is a musume that had a colection of busts of all Germany's leaders, including Holy Roman Empire, in chronological order. In 100 years Hitler's bust will be included.