WW2 had two sides. Why do we never talk about the other one...

[Blind Sight]

Put it this way: in a 1944 poll, it was shown that 10% of Americans supported the total genocide of every Japanese man, woman, and child. They wanted to burn Japan down to glass. I figure that comparing that to just dropping two atomic bombs makes the bombs the 'rational' decision.

The first Company of Heroes expansion pack has an entire German campaign where you control the Panzer Lehr division. Unlike most games, it doesn't demonize the Germans, in fact, it's probably one of the better takes on Germans in video games:

 

[Devil's Due]

though my grandpa who fought in the battle of Manila would agree that the Bombs should never have been dropped without at least a warning.

You do know that they DID give them a warning, they said for them to surrender or there will be unleashed a new weapon against Japan. They ignored it. Bomb dropped, city gone. They warned them again to surrender, they ignored it, second bomb dropped. Only after two warnings did they quit. America didn't want to, but it knew it was necessary.

 

[Cheesus333]

Well, they say that history is written by the victors - a statement that I understand to mean that, no matter the policies, ethics or goals of either side... whomever comes out on top will be the one who was right (at least as far as future generations are taught).

So when we're taught that the Nazis were the Earth-bound equivalent of Satan's demonic hordes who wanted nothing more than the utter extermination of an entire culture (to massively paraphrase any history teacher), it is said because they weren't good enough to accomplish it. And when we're taught that the Allies were all bright-eyed men full of valour and courage who desired only to rid the world of an evil tyrrany, it's said because they were good enough to accomplish it.

 

[JourneyThroughHell]

Yes, that is true. Many Germans and Japanese soldiers were not Nazis or fanatics. And their deaths were tragic. I should have been more clear - not every German soldier was a Nazi. Nazis were members of the Nazi party, whereas German soldiers were members of the army, not the Nazi party.

Is it sad that many Germans and Japanese died during the war? Yes, absolutely. I mean, many of them were friends with the Americans/British/Chinese/Russians before the war. The Germans and the Japanese aren't any more evil than any other race or group of people. And the amount of civilians who died on both sides was awful. I have read accounts of what the Red Army did in Berlin after the War was over. It was sickening. It literally induced nausea within me. Not as bad as what the Germans did, but as I have said, two wrongs do not make a right. And the USSR also invaded Poland.

I've watched "grave of the fireflies" (which is a film EVERYONE should watch). I'm not a celebrator of war. Never have been. I've never agreed with those who "celebrate" the atomic bombing of Nagasaki. I've never agreed with those who treat the bombing as a source of shame either. War is hell, and horrific things happen in war. What the allies did was necessary, and I defend it from that viewpoint. But it shouldn't be "celebrated".

I hate Hideki Tojo. I hate Hitler. I don't hate Hanz or Misaki, or any of the millions of ordinary civilians who weren't Hitler or Tojo. I wish they didn't have to die.

But the blood of those civilians is on the hands of their leaders. Not the allies.

I remember seeing a clip of the US soldiers rounding up the civilians on Okinawa after the war. I remember seeing a young Japanese girl, maybe 5 years old, shivering and crying alone. Because the Japanese militarists convinced the population that they had to commit suicide to avoid the "barbarous American apes" as they put it. That young girl was the only survivor of her family - the others killed themselves in the shelters, or threw themselves off cliffs. Somehow she survived. The clip showed her crying and looking for her mother. That stuff stays in your head.

I'm not a jingoist. I fully recognize that the Japanese and the Germans were humans.

And that makes me hate the leadership of the Axis powers even more.

I just came in here to say that this is all I could ever say on the subject and so much more.

This is a great post. Thank you for making it.

 

[Sevre]

Hollywood has a good amount of Jews living there, both past and present.
A good amount of "the opposite perspective" isn't portrayed in movies, historical films, war films, etc.
The Jews villain Germany. They also have this long-lasting belief that the world hates them. Unfortunately though, given the philosophy of their religious nature and a sense of self-catering it's no wonder they are often seen with such antipathy.
If a war film ever came out, being produced in Hollywood in American soil, the Jewish leaders would have a fit with the word "anti-semetic" because they believe their ancestry is more important than the human race as a whole.

They see themselves as the only people who died in the last Great War. Bottom Line.

No...I do not hate Jews, nor am I an anti-semite. But it disturbs me how greatly they care only about their own, refuse to respect the past, and move on and accept warfare as that. Warfare.

And can someone please, stop saying "The Germans were forced to...". They were defending their damn country regardless if they were the aggressor or not.

Not that I'm Jewish or anything, but when a religion and it's people is oppressed for centuries, and they finally achieve freedom, they're going to do whatever they can to consolidate that freedom and make sure no one attacks it again. It's the same case with Irish Nationalists here.

And not to antagonize the Germans; but they weren't defending their country at all. Unless you want to start throwing fallacies around you can't question that. Nazi history is incredibly complex and you should start reading it before you make such offensive claims.

 

[Count Igor]

Not quite sure how it's meant to be taught in your country, but it seems that it's the "We're always right" bullshit.
Killing that many civilians can't really be justified.
In fact, it breaches the "Just War" section of not killing the innocent civilians.
So yeah...

Anyway, here, at least in my county, we almost NEVER look at wars from our side.
We've spent the past 3 years (5 lessons a fortnight) looking at the World Wars from the Axis side.
And before that it was, again, looking at it from the enemies side.

It gets boring.

Oh, next year we're looking at Russia and all of its wars.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Whats your opinion on the whole thing?

How much do you hear about the persecution of the Saxons? Or the Roundheads? Or that Guy Fawkes was a Catholic trying to put the Church back in power?

Or the Smallpox blankets killing Native Americans? Or the US Internment camps for Asians?

Or Cambodia's butchering of intellectuals?

Or Russia's fight against Germany?

Or St. Patrick was English, St. George was Turkish and Thomas Jefferson was a hypocrite and a total segregationist?

Reading normal history is like trying to use Windows help to fix a iPhone. Read deeper.

(Even America breaking free of England's rule was passed by a tiny minority of the vote; the majority were too scared to take England on)

 

[Kevonovitch]

actually ww2 had 3 sides, 2.5 technically.

the allies, the axis, and russia. russia was actually on the own, and ONLY worked w/ the allies b/c the allies promised support and aid. thats it. and the fact hitler went "oh hai, i gotz a non agressian pact w/ u? l0lz fokk dat sheet!"

although tbh, i loved nazi germany, i HATED italy for being an impotent POS >=( but then again, italy was crap for fighting ever since b4 ww1 even. i always did love alot of stuff about russia and germany from the ww1 onward era.

 

[Aidinthel]

actually ww2 had 3 sides, 2.5 technically

You don't think that's a bit pedantic? Though it's true the Soviets were only with the Allies for the sake of convenience, they still fought the same enemies and attended the same meetings. As far as I'm concerned, that counts as being on a side.

 

[The Wooster]

From what ive heard Japan basically whitewashes quite alot of the negative areas and treats it as another war.
Germany does quite the opposite demonising just about everything to do with the war, although im not sure how verterans are treated i think its generally similar to other countries.

As for the nukes at the time it wasnt seen as much different to regular fire bombings of other cities at least until the aftereffects became more known

Most german students are knowledgable enough to know that german soldiers were quite distinct from the Nazis. A common answer I've heard is that German WW2 war veterans are often viewed in a similar manner to Vietnam war veterans in the states.

 

[The Funslinger]

I'm very lucky to have had a history teacher who used to protect children from racist assaults. Then,the next day, he might shield the same person he was protecting someone from. He's very impartial, and it transfers into his teaching. We learned that Japan was assisting the Nazis, and yes, they were nuked. Just because the Japanese Government allied with the Nazis didn't mean the Japanese populace as a whole had to be vaporized in a case of "wrong place, wrong time." Admittedly, something needed to be done, and that wasn't the fairest solution, though it was effective. It's not just right/wrong, it's kind of like shades of grey.

 

[mrF00bar]

I think the main reason why the nuke was dropped on Japan was because they wouldn't give up otherwise and it was the only way to get them to stop.

Americans vs Samurai, I would never expect that to go well. As for the Nukes I think they just wanted to test it on an actual target and not just a lonely piece of dessert.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Well as many of have already said history is written by the victors. Also why would you want to put a human face on your enemy that just makes it harder to kill them. If you make them all out to be amoral savages that have no interests but their own and will kill you if you turn around and they eat kittens. If you can now convince eople this is ture in alll cases you have successfully established an enemy you can kill.

Just look at Muslims and Islam. Islam and its practises are vastly different from country to country. I don't know what it is like there now but I assume unless some new radical group came to power it is mostly the same, in Sudan there are something like 10 Supreme Court level judges that are female and the country's leader is also a woman. If people were readily told things like this(I won't say facts as I do myself have up to date info) it would humanise Islam and it wouldn't be the big bad demon that it is now.

 

[Angerwing]

snip

I don't usually read such large posts, but that was very well said. Thankyou.

OT: What this guy said is basically what I would've said, had I the articulation and inclination.

 

[Toriver]

I have seen firsthand what schools in Nagasaki teach kids about the bombings. I lived there for two years teaching English in elementary and junior high schools, and just moved to a different part of Japan back in August. Here's what I gathered from the assemblies and classes I've been to about it.

They basically teach them the truth about it, no more, no less. They explain what Japan did to spark the war, how it played out, and how Nagasaki ended up getting an atomic bomb dropped on it. They do very well to present both sides, as well as a more personal aspect of the story, focusing on average Japanese citizens at the time of the bombing and how everything they knew was utterly destroyed by the bomb, even if they themselves weren't killed. These presentations are sometimes given by atomic bomb survivors who tell their own personal stories. Never once did it ever seem to me like they villified or demonized the US for what they did, nor did they really lay on their own guilt for bringing it upon themselves too thick. Basically the message was that war is very destructive and we should always strive for peace in the world to prevent tragedies like this from happening again. Some schools I taught at would send peace cranes to Hiroshima or take them to the peace park in Nagasaki city. I always thought such presentations were quite well done.

EDIT: If you have any more questions about it, I would be happy to try to answer them as best I can.

 

[PeePantz]

Hollywood has a good amount of Jews living there, both past and present.
A good amount of "the opposite perspective" isn't portrayed in movies, historical films, war films, etc.
The Jews villain Germany. They also have this long-lasting belief that the world hates them. Unfortunately though, given the philosophy of their religious nature and a sense of self-catering it's no wonder they are often seen with such antipathy.
If a war film ever came out, being produced in Hollywood in American soil, the Jewish leaders would have a fit with the word "anti-semetic" because they believe their ancestry is more important than the human race as a whole.

They see themselves as the only people who died in the last Great War. Bottom Line.

No...I do not hate Jews, nor am I an anti-semite. But it disturbs me how greatly they care only about their own, refuse to respect the past, and move on and accept warfare as that. Warfare.

And can someone please, stop saying "The Germans were forced to...". They were defending their damn country regardless if they were the aggressor or not.

First, let me state that I come from Jews. At first, I was thinking, "okay, I can see what he's saying." As you continued, I quickly discovered that you are a bigot with an anti-Jew agenda.
It's a terrible habit to state opinions as fact.

-snip-

What the hell are you, internet's Gandalf? Great and very enjoyable posts! Thank you.

 

[Kevonovitch]

actually ww2 had 3 sides, 2.5 technically

You don't think that's a bit pedantic? Though it's true the Soviets were only with the Allies for the sake of convenience, they still fought the same enemies and attended the same meetings. As far as I'm concerned, that counts as being on a side.

considering the fact the allies pretty much DIDN'T give russia anything, they gave hardly anything at ALL, russia was on it's own pretty much, and still just barely beat germany back, i'd say that count's as there own side.

 

[Aidinthel]

considering the fact the allies pretty much DIDN'T give russia anything, they gave hardly anything at ALL, russia was on it's own pretty much, and still just barely beat germany back, i'd say that count's as there own side.

If that's the standard you want to use, then Japan counts as its own side too since they had pretty much no contact with Germany or Italy, so you'd have to call it four sides.

And I must disagree with your argument. Firstly, there was material support given to the Soviet Union by the Allies. The importance of this aid can be debated, but as a symbolic act of solidarity it was pretty important. Also, you're completely ignoring the effects of Hitler having to fight a two-front war. The Nazis could never throw their full resources to the eastern front because they had to defend against the threat from the west. Even though the Normandy invasion came much later, they still had to have the forces in place that whole time, plus the fighting in North Africa.

And that's without getting into how much Japan hated the USSR and would have turned towards the continent if they hadn't been busy in the Pacific. What if the Soviets had been forced to fight a two front war as well? They lost about 12 million soldiers as is. How much more could they have taken, even given (especially considering?) Stalin's absolute refusal to even consider withdrawal?

 

[cahtush]

we never talk about america being the bad guys ever becouse of americas massive ego that is twice the size of the universe