WW2 had two sides. Why do we never talk about the other one...

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tehroc

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Unfortunately Japan was never going to back down, considering most of their military leaders were all practitioners of Bushido. In a pure conventional war the Japanese would have never surrendered even if their islands were reduced to rubble. It took a massive display of immediate destruction in order to shock the civilian populace into demanding the surrender of Japan.
 

Kriloth

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Oct 10, 2010
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whats tricky about this war though is that this is really the first war where civilians weren't safe, both sides attacked cities with the intent to kill civilians, it was just a way to try and get opponents to surrender and back out of the war
 

thejboy88

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Peronally I think, as with all wars, the civilians on both sides are equal victims in this. As I stated in a similar thread regarding Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I greatly opposed the decision to drop the bombs on them, because they were civilian targets rather than military ones. Innocent men women and childre, who had nothing to do with the war, all wiped out.

Don't get me wrong, if the action ended the pacific war quickly rather than slowly with greater casualties them I cannot say that no good came from it, but given the choice, nuclear warfare would be the absolute last resort for me.
 

pffh

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IBlackKiteI said:
Korolev said:
...And what they did to prisoners - well, it was only a very slight shade less evil than what the Nazis did.
I disagree with this.

I understand if you mean the prisoners in the concentration camps, but actual prisoners of war were apparently treated quite similarly to how the allies treated theirs, assuming they took them as prisoners in the first place.

As for Hitler, he was batshit crazy, no dening that.
But as for the German people themselves? Often not so much.
Even his own generals werent too keen on his ideas of genocide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

Here you go.
 

martin's a madman

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If the Germans/Japanese/Italians/and the others, had won, we'd be grateful to the Nazi regime for liberating us from the threat of genetic impurity. In fact, celebrations made to recognise those lost in World War Two would be celebrating those who died fighting to protect ourselves from the Jewish menace.

We'd be in space a lot earlier had the Axis won, that's the only thing I see as a positive. The Germans had such a promising future in technology at the end of the war, superior Rockets, the first military jet fighters.

The Japanese would have dominated Asia, and Germany would have dominated Europe, North America would be whoever got there first.

We'd be damn glad about the whole thing too...

We'd be none the wiser, really.

And for those who suggest the German soldiers didn't know what they were fighting for, do you think the lowly Allied soldier knew?
 

DazBurger

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Aidinthel said:
Kevonovitch said:
actually ww2 had 3 sides, 2.5 technically
You don't think that's a bit pedantic? Though it's true the Soviets were only with the Allies for the sake of convenience, they still fought the same enemies and attended the same meetings. As far as I'm concerned, that counts as being on a side.
Not really, as the Soviets had a different agenda then the other allies.
USSR sought to expand their borders massively, and if Churchill hadn't been thrown of his position immediately after the war, Britain would had declared war on The USSR.
 

soulsabr

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Oct 9, 2008
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InterAirplay said:
Korolev said:
InterAirplay said:
Because everyone seems to forget that maybe the normal people on the other side didn't want it.

German Soldier gets shot in WWII? here's how a lot of people view it: he isn't a normal man who fought out of fear of the repirsal he would face if he refused, he wasn't a father and husband who wanted what was best for his family, he wasn't a man who knew nothing of Hitler's atrocities and he wasn't a man who hated Hitler but felt that invasion would ruin what he held dearest to him back home. He wasn't a patriot who wanted to defend his home regardless of it's leadership, and he wasn't a man hoping to make a difference on the frontlines. He wasn't a man who rejected the Nazi ideals but just wanted to fight with his friends and help make sure they all came back alive, and he wasn't a man who just didn't understand the implications of what he was doing.

No, in the eyes of society, he is a villian who deserved to die. That one little man, caught up on the wrong side of one of the very few "just" wars out of sheer circumstance. People will say "but anyone who agreed must be evil!" without thinking, "hey, maybe very few people actually agreed...". People will say "You should never go along with that sort of thing!" without ever thinking "hey, maybe they didn't know what Hitler was up to, and didn't realize he was such a bad guy!". People will say "you should resist tyranny and evil, and fight for what you believe in!" without ever having felt fear for their lives, their families, their homes before in their entire lives.

You know what? fuck Hitler. Fuck all those who really believed in his aims. But I agree with the OP: It's about time that the hardship and loss faced by the everyday, average citizen of an Axis nations was recognised, because they were victims too. Hell, if we will celebrate the victories of the men fighting for Stalin, then why not? I'm not saying we should go "booyah, the Axis fought so fucking well, what respect we should have for them!" but that we should simply take a step back and see the guy on the side of evil in this fight. Just see if he really hates jews like his leader, see if he would really sanction murder like his leader, see if he wants to fight this war... because it's very likely he didn't. And that's not even mentioning the civillians...

Korolev said:
No-one is disputing the morality of the motives and actions of the Axis leaders. It's the attitude towards the regular people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time and found themselves stuck on the evil side of a war they were forced to fight in that's the issue.
Yes, that is true. Many Germans and Japanese soldiers were not Nazis or fanatics. And their deaths were tragic. I should have been more clear - not every German soldier was a Nazi. Nazis were members of the Nazi party, whereas German soldiers were members of the army, not the Nazi party.

Is it sad that many Germans and Japanese died during the war? Yes, absolutely. I mean, many of them were friends with the Americans/British/Chinese/Russians before the war. The Germans and the Japanese aren't any more evil than any other race or group of people. And the amount of civilians who died on both sides was awful. I have read accounts of what the Red Army did in Berlin after the War was over. It was sickening. It literally induced nausea within me. Not as bad as what the Germans did, but as I have said, two wrongs do not make a right. And the USSR also invaded Poland.

I've watched "grave of the fireflies" (which is a film EVERYONE should watch). I'm not a celebrator of war. Never have been. I've never agreed with those who "celebrate" the atomic bombing of Nagasaki. I've never agreed with those who treat the bombing as a source of shame either. War is hell, and horrific things happen in war. What the allies did was necessary, and I defend it from that viewpoint. But it shouldn't be "celebrated".

I hate Hideki Tojo. I hate Hitler. I don't hate Hanz or Misaki, or any of the millions of ordinary civilians who weren't Hitler or Tojo. I wish they didn't have to die.

But the blood of those civilians is on the hands of their leaders. Not the allies.

I remember seeing a clip of the US soldiers rounding up the civilians on Okinawa after the war. I remember seeing a young Japanese girl, maybe 5 years old, shivering and crying alone. Because the Japanese militarists convinced the population that they had to commit suicide to avoid the "barbarous American apes" as they put it. That young girl was the only survivor of her family - the others killed themselves in the shelters, or threw themselves off cliffs. Somehow she survived. The clip showed her crying and looking for her mother. That stuff stays in your head.

I'm not a jingoist. I fully recognize that the Japanese and the Germans were humans.

And that makes me hate the leadership of the Axis powers even more.
You get a +1. And I mean that in the most serious way possible.
+1 for the both of you. This has to be one of the best comment-responses I have ever read and I've been around since AOL was the only game in town.
 
May 6, 2009
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Ninjamedic said:
Lord Monocle Von Banworthy said:
Ah I see, thanks for politely correcting me rather than flaming.
In that case i retract my statement.
No problem. I always try to remember Hanlon's Razor. If you had argued subsequently with no sources to back you up I'd have been irate from then. I don't really care so much about these artificial distinctions everybody makes in war, with things like civilians vs. military, spies vs. combatants, nukes vs. conventional weapons...

Soldiers are some mother's sons too. They're not more or less people than civilians. Nuclear weapons don't kill you any deader than conventional weapons. If you gave me a choice between getting vaporized in Nagasaki and getting chopped up with a machete in Somalia I'd pick the nuke every time.

We're awfully hung up as a species on parceling out our murder only to people who we can convince ourselves have volunteered for it and doing it in whatever way the cool kids are doing it this century. Our current style is to do it as cleanly as possible and to use chemical explosives if possible. Nuclear explosives are right out and chemicals applied directly to the victim aren't cool. They must instead be used to propel bits of metal into a human body. A hundred years from now maybe we'll use nothing but poison gases and be obsessed with killing people without leaving marks on them because a pretty corpse is more humane to the family.

I guess all I was saying with that last paragraph is that Hiroshima isn't more evil than Dresden because it was a nuke and not a chemical bomb, and it's not more evil than Normandy just because it killed children instead of conscripted teenagers and twenty-somethings with rifles in their hands.
 

Warlordnipple

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Sep 9, 2010
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Well the Japanese civilians were being handed explosives and the children were being taught to run under tanks with bombs. So the Nukes actually saved a lot of Japanese lives as well. They could at least tell themselves that the thought of invading them was so scary we decided to nuke them instead.

Germans pretty obviously hate themselves for Hitler, that just clearly got out of hand and they were not really sure what they were getting themselves into, I mean it is illegal to have a picture of hitler in germany or be a nazi now, neither of which are illegal in America
 

lukemdizzle

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Jul 7, 2008
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Diamondback One said:
lukemdizzle said:
though my grandpa who fought in the battle of Manila would agree that the Bombs should never have been dropped without at least a warning.
You do know that they DID give them a warning, they said for them to surrender or there will be unleashed a new weapon against Japan. They ignored it. Bomb dropped, city gone. They warned them again to surrender, they ignored it, second bomb dropped. Only after two warnings did they quit. America didn't want to, but it knew it was necessary.
The United States gave no warning, none whatsoever of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings.
The U.S did however drop leaflets over various Cities telling the Japanese that they were not the enemy, that their government was the enemy.
That is as close a warning they got, the U.S never mentioned they had Nuclear weapons, nor did they tell the Japanese they had the most powerful bomb ever designed by man, it's all lies and myths.
 

Devil's Due

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lukemdizzle said:
it's all lies and myths.
Wow... I can tell you're a conspiracy theorist now. Okay, believe that if you want. But do know this: America DID warn Japan that they would drop a different bomb on another city every day until Japan surrendered after the first bomb, which Japan didn't believe. Don't censor out parts of history because it doesn't fit what at least your grandfather said, he doesn't have the full story, either.
 

lukemdizzle

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Diamondback One said:
lukemdizzle said:
it's all lies and myths.
Wow... I can tell you're a conspiracy theorist now. Okay, believe that if you want. But do know this: America DID warn Japan that they would drop a different bomb on another city every day until Japan surrendered after the first bomb, which Japan didn't believe. Don't censor out parts of history because it doesn't fit what at least your grandfather said, he doesn't have the full story, either.
wait to not quote all the other historically accurate things I said and dismiss me as a conspiracy theorist. Im not going off my grandfathers word hear Im going off of research I did for a history project about WWII. ask your history teacher if you don't believe me. I told you exactly what happened. america dropped letters over Japanese cities, but these letters said nothing about The Bomb, or any specific cities. look it up an answer. I didn't want an argument here but you dismiss me as a know nothing conspiracy theorist and bring my grandpa into the argument even though my point had only to do with his opinion. what the hell?
 
Nov 24, 2010
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Kenko said:
The germans can take pride in their fallen ancestors. The vast majority of the german army were fighting to for their home and fatherland like everyone else did. Only assholes were the real nazi's. The SS, Gestapo and so on. They pretty much coerced germany into war. Everyday germans didnt really have much choice but either shut up and do as they say or get shot like the rest.
Sadly its not so easy.
A part of the Police were "choosen" to form "Einsatzkommandos" at WWII. They had to exterminate partisans, sinti,roma, jews and "assoziale" (criminals, homeless etc) while the army was invading Russia (unternehmen Barbarossa)

This people were free to deny. No consequences. But most of them didnt gon home. they stayed. (they thought of it as a "liability", a "duty".)

That were fathers, men with families ans maybe nice people too. (one was a poet)
(i´ve read a book about the Einsatzkommando.)
and the members of the Einsatzkommandos-they disliked their "work" (some diarys were found, so the though of few members of the ek were documentated.They were also citated in the book I mentioned above)
but they´ve done it. Some of theme were traumatised, but soon they got accustomed.

At school, we learn much about, because wo should not forget about. We hear often: "this should never ever happen again"

But if you demonize only the fuhrer and the politics, you taking the responsibility away.
The holocaust began early. soon after the nazis won the "election", laws were made. Afer a short time the jews were excluded from social life. They were demonized. At the reichskristallnacht their synagogues were burnt, their shops destroyed and many of them died. (At my hometown, one was shot in the synagogue,then they was set on fire, burning the dying boy inside)
The civilans didnt help. maybe they feared the ss, but many of them thought of the jews as "untermenschen".

I dont feel guilty for the things my greatgrandparents and grandparents may have done. but i am interested to know why the "normal german" could live at this times so peaceful*. but these things you don´t learn at school.


i think, that´s very,very important to know, why normal policemen learnt killing children, women, men. Its important, because only if you know how to manipulate people to kill harmless and defenseless people you know how prevent it. and how to aware.
if you say "this never could happen to me" than you dont think about, which factors could get you so far. I for my self, need to know that the hell was going on inside the heads of this men.

concernment doesnt help against atrocities. sadly, at school you mostly learn to b concerned about the things our grandparents have done (my grandma was member of the hj and the bund deutscher mädchen. like many others. it was part of their life. they hat friends their, spendet time together. the nazis attained almost all parts of the german life. interfused it.





*maybe except those, which lived near concentrationcamps like bergen belsen, buchenwald or dachau. they saw the poor people. much of them might have thought, that the inhabitant were guilty. or that "this" was needed to save them from the enemy..maybe they feared the gestapo and ss so they never criticised.



(i hope you get what i wanted to tell. have write more english texts. so, sorry for this. didnt use my english since abitur and never have written about such comlex topics))