WW2 had two sides. Why do we never talk about the other one...

[BiscuitTrouser]

I was wondering today about a history essay question I got about the ethical standards when the decision to drop the nuke was made. I looked through my notes and my teachings and it tended to steer toward dropping the nukes as a good solution. This puzzled me and I actually argued the other way but that isnt what this thread is about. I wondered what they taught japanese students about Hiroshima and Nagaski. What in gods name do you say to those kids.

"Two cities were vaporised but we totally deserved it, you can't really be sad, we were the bad guys"
"Two cities were vaporised but we were actually in the right, they were the bad guys, now you can feel sorry for them"

I cant really see either of these being acceptable... I dont know what I'd say.

Hell I know sins of the father and such is a pretty poor way to look at things but in this case I have no idea how Germans and the other ex axis powers feel about the war or how they can talk about it without being in the wrong in some way, either not being able to feel pity or sadness for their fallen ancestors or take pride in anything they did (armed service or other wise) or seeming like they sympathised with the whole idea of the axis powers. It seems like catch 22 here, they can't really have an opinion that won't be viewed as horrific or will force them to see their family with a blackened past.

TLDR:

What are you taught about that era? How do you feel people should talk about the other side when teaching or in general conversation? Is it fair to dehumanize old enemies? How would you feel if you belonged to a nation once branded "enemy" and in the wrong regardless of peoples personal beliefs? Whats your opinion on the whole thing?

 

[BlumiereBleck]

History is written by the winners, if we learned from both sides instead of one(ex: ACW) The world could have been better. Instead of learning why they fought in the first place we just put they were bad.(ex: ACW)

 

[BiggityB05]

We dont talk about it because they lost, thats how all wars work. History is written by the victors

 

[Ninjamedic]

The problem lies with the fact that they chose civilian cities, not high priority military targets.

 

[Lord Kloo]

I can understand the history is written by the victors, it does also help that the victors are usually state power countries like Post war USA, Russia, etc. history is written not necessarily by the victor but always in favour of the victor..

It does have a strange effect on a man when he discovers his views were not the whole views and that each story has more than 1 or 2 sides to the truth..

 

[Stalk3rchief]

I'd like to actually get a good answer from an actual Japanese person, just for the insight. I wonder how they portray the atomic bombs dropping to their students, and how exactly the country feels about it all. Being American I haven't got any idea what it's liketo have been defeated, at least not in such a way.
o.o
Anyone know any Japanese kids? Get them in on this so we can figure this out. lol

 

[Geekosaurus]

Well I don't live in Japan or Germany. I can only imagine that they teach the history of the World Wars from their perspective: 'we were bastards, really.'

I always thought that we wouldn't get a video game where we fight for the 'bad guys.' But after that airport mission in MW2, fighting as the Nazis seems plausible.

 

[Jekken6]

I think the main reason why the nuke was dropped on Japan was because they wouldn't give up otherwise and it was the only way to get them to stop.

 

[Judgement101]

Americans were taught that Japan and Germany suck.

 

[Spacewolf]

From what ive heard Japan basically whitewashes quite alot of the negative areas and treats it as another war.
Germany does quite the opposite demonising just about everything to do with the war, although im not sure how verterans are treated i think its generally similar to other countries.

As for the nukes at the time it wasnt seen as much different to regular fire bombings of other cities at least until the aftereffects became more known

 

[TheAmazingHobo]

What you have to understand it that this happened a significant time ago and as such is not really of any greater interest to modern-day students/school children. Except as an historic or academic topic.

I was taught about it (growing up in an "axis-nation"), as I was taught about the napoleonic era or the weimar republic, only more in depth. The idea to identify with the people of those days and think about it as a "we" always seemed somewhat silly to my.

So yeah, if you want to know what "we" think about the time back then... not a whole lot, to be honest.

Edit:

Germany does quite the opposite demonising just about everything to do with the war, although im not sure how verterans are treated i think its generally similar to other countries.

You need to understand that military service is seen as much less of a deal here, than it is in the USA. And thus, by extension, being a veteran is seen as much less of deal.

 

[photog212]

snip

(I'm going to assume you live the States for a sec.)
They learn about it the same way we learn about Vietnam or westward expansion. We did it, mistakes were made, lets learn from them and try not to do it again.

 

[BlackMunz]

In Germany we tend to discuss WW2 a little like it was another country(in schools at least). We learn about it the same way we learn for example about Alexander the Great or the Roman Empire. Ok there is a huge amount of cultural guilt involved and we learn about WW2 in some form nearly every year after sixth grade. At the end we nearly know about every war crime we commited in WW2 and we learn in depth about some specific examples (for example one history lesson in school was about one single mass execution in Poland to understand the way in which the people accted back then)
As I said we kinda discuss it without condemning all people in that generation but naturally without glorifying them either.

EDIT: We know of course that what we did was horribly wrong. Thats so obvious I forgot to mention it

 

[smearyllama]

Well, in 7th grade, we had an exercise where we had to decide whether to simply drop the bombs, thousands, or to risk an invasion that could take years and kill millions more. Both are equally undesirable, but that's a choice that had to be made, and it was.

As I recall, I think we chose to drop the bombs, but I don't remember.

You know, my dad always told me this: The people usually aren't the bad guys.
It's the people in charge who put them in these situations.

I always try to look at things impartially, but it's hard.

Does that answer your question?

 

[ashlotte]

I can at least pitch in my personal source of knowledge. Basically agreeing with Spacewolf, Japan whitewashes quite a bit, so much so that it's fairly common for Japanese people to think that the US struck first. And they kind of gloss over the whole war atrocities thing.

 

[badgersprite]

From what I've heard from Japanese friends, they don't mention WW2 at all, really, in Japan, in schools. It's not taught. They don't bring it up. Japanese tourists have come to Australia and been totally shocked to learn that Japanese submarines were ever in that area. And Japanese war veterans don't discuss what happened with their families, or in public.

It's like a black ink spot on a white dress that nobody acknowledges, because it's more polite to say nothing.

 

[Diligent]

It's a pretty big gray area and one of those topics where you realize life isn't as simple as good vs. evil. Yes, it's horrible that so many civilians were killed and injured, but at the same time it did pretty much end that conflict and arguably saved more lives in the long run.
Is that much consolation to people alive today who are disfigured or lost loved ones and families because of it? Not really, but it certainly got Japan to cut out their bullshit. Take a look at some of the stuff that was done by the Japanese army, specifically Unit 731, and their absolute brutality in combat.

On the other hand, perhaps it was just a show of power to cap off a long and drawn out war - one last flexing of a military muscle to show the world who's boss. I have no answer, but I'd be curious to see what somebody from Japan would think too.

 

[SonicKoala]

Well, in 7th grade, we had an exercise where we had to decide whether to simply drop the bombs, killing millions (am I right in saying that? I don't know the numbers)

Within the first few months of the bombings, a combined total of approximately 250,000 people died. As for the amount of people who died as a result of radiation sickness in the years following, I couldn't say, but it certainly never entered into the "millions"

 

[Korolev]

The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki occurred at a different time than ours. Back then, racism was a very prominent part of life. Both sides - axis and allied - used racial propaganda, although the Axis powers used it more frequently and to much worse effect.

Japan's main goal during the 30's, right up to WW2, was empire building - they wanted to conquer all of Asia. Their goals outside of Asia weren't clear, but what was clear was their desire to imitate the British Empire. Japan was undergoing a period of modernization at that point, adopting Western styles of Manufacturing and Business and Science. They also saw all those empires the Western Powers had, and decided that to be truly powerful they too needed to expand and conquer territories.

So they did. The launched wars of aggression against China and Korea, and then parts of the British Empire. The Japanese stated that it was to kick the Europeans out of Asia and establish a "co-prosperity" sphere. Why this "sphere" had to involve murdering millions of Chinese civilians, we don't know. Why it had to involve raping and plundering its way across Asia, performing biological weapons testing on other asian nationalities, we don't know either. But it did.

Japan's motives during WW2 were clear - resources and land. That was what they wanted. Now, the British can be rightfully accused of doing the same thing when it was building its empire. But two wrongs don't make a right, and Japan's conduct during its war with China is horrific beyond imagination. Seriously, go read some Chinese accounts (and even some Japanese soldiers accounts) of what happened did during that time. Japanese soldiers were encouraged to behead as many people as possible, as a contest. Women and young girls were forced into brothels. And what they did to prisoners - well, it was only a very slight shade less evil than what the Nazis did.

Yes, the Europeans did similar things in Africa. It doesn't excuse what the Japanese did.

Of course, that's in the past now. Japan is peaceful once more. Let bygones be bygones. It's hard, but they're our friends now. The nuclear bombings of those cities however, was necessary. Japan had instructed every single civilian to take up arms (even if those arms consisted of Bamboo poles because they were short on guns). Even kids young as 10 were being trained to fight the Americans. The US learned on Iwo Jima that the Japanese would fight to the death. Any invasion by land would have been a bloody mess of epic proportions.

Keep in mind that even after the SECOND atomic bomb was dropped, roughly half the Japanese Military leadership still didn't want to surrender. The head of their navy proposed using 20 million Civilians in a suicide attack against the Americans. Without the atomic bombing, they simply wouldn't have surrendered.

I suppose I'm a bit biased - my grandfather was taken as a POW by the Japanese after they invaded Malaya (Malaysia now). He wasn't even a soldier. They took him back to Japan, and he nearly died in those camps. They used to continuously stage mock executions, in which they would take him to the firing range, raise their guns, then pretend to fire, before putting him back in his cage (they kept him in a cage) and saying "maybe tomorrow". The Japanese were going to execute every POW if the Americans landed - that much is fact. The bombings saved my Grandfather's life. And he forgave the Japanese afterward. Did business deals with them, mostly involved with selling them timber.

My grandmother on my Mother's side was driven out of China because of the Japanese invasion. She had to leave everything behind. She had to dress up as a boy because who knows what would have happened if they had caught her and they thought she was a girl.

Now, with the Nazis, their evil was well established. Hitler was an uber-racist (not, however, an uber-man). He simply wanted to wipe out entire groups of people. Russians, all Slavs, Poles, Gypsies, Jews, Gays, Communists - the account of what the German Army did in Russia is there for all to see. Their job, their goal, was laid out in Hitler's Mein Kampf - total extermination of the Russian race, total extermination of anyone not deemed "worthy".

And believe me, they tried. Mass Graves. The SS simply rounded up any Russian deemed to be a Jew, from the littlest toddler to the oldest man. And they shot them. They just gunned them down. For no other reason than the religion of their birth, or their physical appearance. Millions of people.

The Nazis killed Six Million people in their camps alone. They killed even more out of those camps.

Look, go see a video of what the Concentration camps were like. Do it. Go read an account of the suffering the Russians went through during WW2, and maybe you'll understand why they hated the Germans so much. In fact, go read Mein Kampf. It's not a good book, but you'll quickly realize what Hitler had intended for the world had he won.

Hitler did not believe in democracy, freedom or even happiness. Jack-booted authoritarianism was what he preached, and he made no bones about it. Dissent was not tolerated, and anything short of total devotion to "the fuhrer" was seen as dissent. Hitler was full of hatred, and his ideology was one of militarism, conquest, obedience and raw power. He was a bad man. Don't believe me? READ HIS OWN WORKS. It comes across very clearly.