You people are ridiculous

[Ragsnstitches]

You do realise the point that the other bloke was trying desperately to get across to you is that the other developing departments (Animators/Designers/Sound Engineers/Writers/Scripters etc etc) have little to no programming/coding skill and are consequently not qualified to track down and fix bugs and glitches.

You do realise it takes absolutely no programming skill to play a bit, note the dragon is fucking flying backwards, and send a memo to the programmers, right?



Apparently two of you seem to be unable to comprehend how someone without programming skill can easily play a game, write down bugs they encounter, and forward that on to the programmers. You, me, the janitor, anyone with two working eyeballs and at least one functioning hand can playtest, and playtesting is a major, integral part of the bugfixing progress. Programmers need to know where the bugs they need to fix are, and playtesters find those bugs. Playtesters need only be able to A: play the game and B: be literate enough to describe when and where the bug happens. That's it.


You don't need any programming skill at all. Shit's broken? Write down what's broken and what you did when it broke, send note to programmer. Simple.


I absolutely adore Valve's model. They release the game when it's damn well ready. They never set release dates, and they're not afraid at all to delay the game as long as they need to make sure it fucking works when it launches. They are unique in the industry, no other dev does this. Some devs ship with huge gamebreakers in, most only delay it if it sets the system on fire or something. ON TOP OF THAT they don't rip you off with Day 1 DLC, or hell any DLC as they release it for free or don't release it at all, and they don't charge 60 bucks for rehash shit.


Devs should adopt their models, and if the publishers don't like it they can STFU. Valve makes billions with this model, it clearly works, and it has cemented their position as a god amongst men as far as reputation with their customers goes.

I'm not sure what standards you have, but if you were a boss of a Game Development Studio, I would tell you were to stick your ideals. First of all, Valve has Steam. This fucking colossal platform both rakes in money for them, and offers a free medium to distribute their goods. There is no other company like them right now and, because hold the lions share of gaming Digital Distribution, will likely remain as such for the foreseeable future. EA struggles to compete with Valve, and bethesda doesn't even have a fraction of the income EA has and also has no Digital platform of their own. It's not feasible for them to adopt Valves "it's ready when it's ready" development mantra as time is money and money is limited for most of the worlds developers, bar valve. I can guarantee you valve never worry about budget and I'm sure Bethesda overshot their budget with Skyrim, especially with that uncharacteristic marketing blitz.

Your concept on how to run a business is very childish. It doesn't matter how "simple" the job is, the people who work in those places do so as a CAREER. They did not educate themselves in the ways of Animation/Graphic Design/Audio Manipulation etc. to be FORCED into QA. Their Job is fixed, anything they do beyond that is basically charity (to you, the ungrateful gamer).

If I spend years of my life training myself to be a specific kind of contributor to these projects, I would not like to be pigeon-holed into the lowest field of entry, just because a vocal minority has a hissy fit on the internet.

Should developers have a larger QA team? Maybe. It depends on the game.

After 300 hours on Skyrim *since release, I have never encountered any of the Dragon related bugs though they are fixed now. I hit a sound loop bug at around 120 hours and I started noticing lag issues at around 170. A friend of mine hasn't hit one snag at all in his 120 hours of play. Most of the people I know who have it have not encountered anything beyond the occasional crash. 1 of them hit the civil war bug, but he just reloaded an earlier save and didn't encounter it again.

As far as I'm concerned Skyrim was functional, with only mild hiccups. I have seen much worse.
They are all fixed now anyway, or at least I have not encountered any of them since.

Roughly 700 man hours in and we had only encountered 3 to 5 game stalling issues. That's a lot of potential hours wasted by staff (who would be dreadfully over-qualified for that job) with little to show for it (so no incentive to the Money handlers). It is far more efficient to just release it into the wild as polished as they can get it at a deadline and let the diligent communities report bugs and glitches on mass (thousands of hours a day at no cost) and have a crack team of bug squashers working in parallel. It's worked for nearly 2 decades now and in todays world we have straight to our drive patches, rather then picking up a freeware CD in some Gaming Magazine.

And in a desperate attempt to drag your rant back on topic. Aside from offering the developers and animators work that fits their criteria, pre-launch DLC production offers a far more quantifiable level of production then converting the entire development team into QA. It's also a boon for the gamers themselves, as this means new content sooner rather then later.

 

[Zacharious-khan]

If anyone has a problem with the Mass Effect 3 Day One DLC just don't buy it, even better don't buy the game at all if you haven't already. Purchasing games with D1DLC and then purchasing that dlc is enabling that behavior.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

They set "We might release it next tuesday, but don't hold your breath" dates. To date the only game I can remember actually going out on that date was Portal 1. They absolutely adore just shrugging and going back to work if they think it needs to.

Ah. So they DO give us release dates. They just have no problem with breaking them and "shrugging it off". Apparently having a rough idea how much work is left to complete is hard enough. Makes one wonder how all those other games I own came out spot on release date. But they must all be bug ridden- Oh wait, they aren't.

"Game should be out some time next year. Maybe. Or not. We don't know. But probably next year. Or the year after."

Very classy.

Valve's biggest cockups still end up better than the best Activision can to muster, for example. See L4D2. Worst game they've released in years. Still better than MW3.

Ah. So here's where the CoD hate goes. That's what all the cool kids do, I guess. But with a name like TestECull, what could I expect?

 

[Boris Goodenough]

It's funny, because with a bit of tinkering you can have access to all the DLC on the DVD without resorting to such horrible things as piracy.

 

[wulf3n]

Though it will still be called piracy

link to image - http://i42.tinypic.com/jru0zt.jpg

 

[mrhappy1489]

First of all, since this is a very important topic, yesterday I went to McDonald's (it was a moment of weakness, I'm sorry) and I ordered a burger. Then I asked about putting cheese on it. They said it costs an extra 99 cents. What. The. Fuck. To put something extra on my burger, I have to pay more? And the cheese was in the restaurant. I could see it in the kitchen from where I was standing. Sitting there, already made, and they want me to pay extra for them to just stick it on my burger? This is such shameless exploitation. McDonald's obviously hates all their customers and they're a plague on the restaurant society.

Second, please shut the fuck up about day one DLC. I think this is in order again-

Day one DLC is a developer working overtime. Do you deny that? They do more than is required for the main game (and before someone goes off about "ZOMG EA RIPPED CONTENT OUT OF THE GAME TO SELL IT BACK AS DLC BECAUSE THEY HATE THEIR CUSTOMERS", no, they didn't, you're paranoid and the only soft evidence we have for that, on either side, is the devs themselves, and I'll take their word over a horde of angry gamers any day).

I'll repeat that because that parenthetical went really long. They do more than is required for the main game. And what do you say to them? "No, give it to us for free because it's already done." No. Fucking no. Listen to yourselves. You sound like children. Once production is winding down, the production team works on more content, and you're telling them that they're exploiting you by wanting to be paid for it.

Again, you people are ridiculous. I kept myself neutral when day one DLC was first becoming an issue, but the sides are becoming very, very clear, and the people complaining are some of the most selfish, entitled, and hateful people on the internet right now.

Now feel free to reinforce that last point against me.

EDIT: Also, sorry about putting this in Off-Topic, it started as just the first paragraph (which fit a bit more in here) and I forgot to move it over once everything else was down.

EDIT 2: Looks like it got moved, awesome.

My friend entitlement is something that is damaging more things than more people realize. For example, being a Journalism student, we've had the discussion about charging for internet magazines and newspapers and one of the problems and fears is that people (similar to these idiots) will scream and shout because they have become use to something and feel entitled to their fair share. The rage can be understood, but if people what continually good quality items (particularly news) they need to understand that payment is necessary. This was a bit of a side argument, but it does annoy me considering this is the field I want to go into and it would be a shame if there are less options because of idiots similar to these people.

 

[legendp]

If the files are on the disc, it is yours. Optional or not, if you have the data they should not charge you. I'm getting tired of this "software as a service" bullshit where they can change and take away from you whatever they like. It's not DOWNLOADABLE Content if it's already there.

I know this is just an argument over semantics but I'm sure they'd get a little less flak if there weren't any files for the "DLC" on the disc. If you actually had to download your Downloadable Content rather than unlocking it, I feel reaction would be much more favorable.

If it's already on the disc there is no nice way of explaining it, they are fucking you over and they know you will take it.

That's where I draw the line - if it's on the disk, it should be yours without extra payment. So yeah, in this matter I do actually agree with you, sorry.

So the developers shouldn't get paid for extra work if they finish it early enough to put it on the disc?

If it's extra work, why bother putting it on the disk? Just make it downloadable, and maybe put it on the collectors' edition disk (which costs more anyway).

I don't really care about the whole issue that much, mind. I don't hate Bioware for making what I view as a small gaffe - like some apparently do.

Captcha: broken heart. Seems appropriate, considering some reactions to this thing.

What, so they put the DLC on a disk for you so you didn't have to spend bandwidth and hours downloading it. how would making it a downloadable be any different if it is already DLC, not putting it on the disc if there is room is just wasting bandwidth.. anyway it's not like mass effect 3 is a short game, even without the DLC you are still getting a lot of bang for your buck. I wish I could buy all the mass effect 2 DLC on a disc even if it cost a bit extra because all that DLC takes forever to download, think of it as an expansion pack for $30 (considering all the Mass effect 2 DLC cost about $25 anyway). or maybe just make an me2 game of the year addition (unless it is already out and I have somehow missed it)

 

[Strazdas]

so what your image shows, is that the industry is not working the way it should? how does us requisting it would work the right way bad? sure its not illegal for them to work like that, but them many things arent.

 

[Yopaz]

Since when was DLC like this free?

An example I keep going back to is Magus from Chrono Trigger. Having him in the party was optional and didn't need to happen, but we got him without having to pay $10 over the price of the game we paid for. Yes, it wasn't downloadable (due to the tech at the time), but he probably would be if the game was made today. Games used to have these litte extras hidden as part of the game: extra characters and unlockable bosses in fighters, extra optional charactrs in RPGs, extra modes in platformers, hidden levels in shooters. I gueess if you're an older gamer you don't view the complete game as the shortest path between "press start" and "game over".

OK, your only example is one that isn't DLC? That's nice. Also are you under the impression that all optional content is DLC these days? Take a look at Tales of Vesperia. There's almost as much optional content for that game as there is main content. Optional content includes sub plots, alternative missions, alternative costumes, hidden weapons and alternative game modes.

If you want to make a point, at least make it resemble the discussion at hand remotely.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

First of all, since this is a very important topic, yesterday I went to McDonald's (it was a moment of weakness, I'm sorry) and I ordered a burger. Then I asked about putting cheese on it. They said it costs an extra 99 cents. What. The. Fuck. To put something extra on my burger, I have to pay more? And the cheese was in the restaurant. I could see it in the kitchen from where I was standing. Sitting there, already made, and they want me to pay extra for them to just stick it on my burger? This is such shameless exploitation. McDonald's obviously hates all their customers and they're a plague on the restaurant society.

That's why I steer clear of McDonald's; and only try and eat in places where I know the food isn't going to be commercially churned out using the worst ingredients, the stock photos trying to hide the underpaid staff, dreadful conditions and lack of care; and I don't end up feeling emptier afterwards.

It's getting harder not to be drawn into the controversy of McDonald's when it's all everyone thinks of talking about though. And when you're told that you're a hater, and you must go in and sample it before you're allowed an opinion, and your opinion must be the same as theirs, and people keep coming out and bringing out graphs showing exactly what goes into McDonald's...

And then there's Mass Effect 3; but I repeat myself.

 

[tahrey]

wait a minute, OPs getting ripped off here. Round my way, a hamburger is 0.89, and a cheezburger is 0.99 ... it's only a 10p difference, rather than more than doubling the price.

and strangely i think that sums up my personal issues with egregious DLC quite nicely. it's not a 10p cheese slice, it's a 99p one, on an 89p burger.
heck, even a double cheezburger is only 1.29... an extra 30p. let's call that a major expansion pack/semi-sequel.

and now they're often trying to get away with selling you a bun that has ketchup and maybe a pickle in it, but no beef patty. that's extra as well. and on every other tuesday you can only get certain parts of the patty by buying your burger from a particular mcdonalds outlet.

by the way - does your local outlet charge extra if you want a packet of bbq ketchup to dip your fries into? because mine doesn't... there's your hats / extra avatar skins.

 

[lapan]

The problem is, most of what we get as DLC nowadays used to be unlockables a few years ago. This is especially true for fighting games. Remember Tekken 3 or DoA2? All the extra characters and costumes you got for free back then are 10? DLCs nowadays...

 

[RagTagBand]

I've got to say that before I owned ME3 I would have thought that the From Ashes DLC would be like the Zaeed DLC and that everyone whinging that "ITS INTEGRAL AND IMPORTANT AND NECESSARY FOR THE MAIN PLOT" was speaking out of their collective asses.

An interesting but short and ultimately quite shallow addition to my game. A mission, a room on the Normandy that isn't empty any more, a new gun or ability and somebody who, If I talk to, will not really talk to me, but talk at me.

So far, now that I'm played through ME3 and have done the DLC mission to get my new squad member...It seems I was right. The DLC contributed a few nice cut scenes but literally fuck all else of any considerable worth.

 

[Sperium 3000]

Oh you Yanks, eating at such horrible restaurants. I say boycott the cheese, that will work right?

Boycott cheese?

I'm afraid I can't do that, cheese makes up a good 87% of my daily intake of awesome foods. The rest is bacon. With melted cheese on it.

Sir, you are now my nutricionist.

 

[Xanthious]

snip

Yeah you're just willing to eat up any anti consumer bullshit these publishers want to feed you with a big smile on your face and not only ask for more afterwords but try and spoon feed that bullshit to others. I'm sure EA really appreciates people like you. You even went that extra bit dragging up that tired played out chart that means absolutely fuck all. Hell maybe I should make a multi colored chart, they seem to be popular lately. Keep on defending those people who don't give two shits about you beyond your wallet though fella. You're doing a super job!

Speaking of that chart though the part on the bottom that makes me chuckle is the part that says that it only seems like price gauging and exploitation but they give us their word that this isn't what it is. Well shit I guess that settles it, we have their word on it!

 

[josemlopes]

Most of the analogies are stupid, yours included. If you wanted to make one that even remotely came close you could have used DVD's or Music CD's:

1: A music CD has fifteen songs on it. The retailer is charging full price (meaning, the same price as another cd with 15 songs on average) for 10 of those songs, but says: For another $5 you can unlock these 'bonus' tracks.

So... dont fucking buy it. What you are buying first are just the 10 songs, not the 15. Just because they are there it doesnt mean that you bought them. Don't think that you have them and to unlock them you have to spend more 5$.

It would be wrong if the CD was advertised as having 15 songs for the original price, but no, you knew what you would get for that price and that was 10 songs. The same goes with everything else, when you buy a game you know what is DLC and you know that you aren't paying for that so make a choice, buy it now, wait for it to get cheaper or just don't buy it.

 

[GothmogII]

Most of the analogies are stupid, yours included. If you wanted to make one that even remotely came close you could have used DVD's or Music CD's:

1: A music CD has fifteen songs on it. The retailer is charging full price (meaning, the same price as another cd with 15 songs on average) for 10 of those songs, but says: For another $5 you can unlock these 'bonus' tracks.

So... dont fucking buy it. What you are buying first are just the 10 songs, not the 15. Just because they are there it doesnt mean that you bought them. Don't think that you have them and to unlock them you have to spend more 5$.

It would be wrong if the CD was advertised as having 15 songs for the original price, but no, you knew what you would get for that price and that was 10 songs. The same goes with everything else, when you buy a game you know what is DLC and you know that you aren't paying for that so make a choice, buy it now, wait for it to get cheaper or just don't buy it.

Already done. (The err...not being bought thing. )

I don't believe I mentioned anywhere that you, I or anyone -had- to buy a certain product, so I apologise if it seemed like that was what I was implying. I'm a firm believer in consumer responsibility, Caveat Emptor and all that.

 

[TehChuckles]

I just feel when I buy something I should actually own it instead of just having the right to use it in a way determined by the producer. I mean seriously if it's on the disk I should be able to use it! I paid for the disk and the data on the disk. not just some of it. imo it's as bad as buying a jam doughnut and being made to eat around the jam until the baker says I can which will cost me a little extra.