Zero Punctuation: Eve Online
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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I tried it... the opening cinematic lasted frigging AGES, the character maker was pointless, the HUD was confusing, and the most interesting part was going lightspeed.
hehe yeah, eve is not for everyone, though lately they are trying to improve new player experience.
you made the mistake a lot of new players do. you didnt join a player corporation, and that is what eve is mostly about.
other MMOs allow a form of "solo" playing. and while it can be done in eve, its really not the way to go.
eve is all about pvp, group pvp. you rely on your corpmates, and through the use of different tactics defeat the other group of players.
what makes eve fun (for some of us) is when these corporations join together to form alliances, which have a few thousand members (one wow server...). now these huge alliances battle over space for resources. the politics involved are incredible. and when the negotiations fail, we see fights with a few hundred people on every side.
so its not two guys kicking each other shins...
its the correct use of tactics through an agreed doctrine of ship fitting...
or at least one thousand guys kicking the other thousand guys shins
not to mention espionage...
but yeah, the game is very "mathematical". you need to understand how transversal velocity works, how signature radius is calculated into the damage formulas and so on...
every week there is a guy complaining why his huge battleship cant kill a small tiny frigate?
well your huge battleship normally fits huge guns, which cant track a small fast ship...
that is why a pack of cheap frigates will tear up an expensive battleship.
but people seem to miss the serenity of, as you say, clicking and shin kicking until someone drops dead. I am sure there are other systems for pvp, but eve chose this "mathematical" approach...and i can understand it only appeals to a certain group of people. i found it a lot of fun, but i can understand why most wouldn't.
again, eve is a great game, there is no other sandbox like it, you just need to get through the retarded new player experience, which is so horribly failed it hurts.
you made the mistake a lot of new players do. you didnt join a player corporation, and that is what eve is mostly about.
other MMOs allow a form of "solo" playing. and while it can be done in eve, its really not the way to go.
eve is all about pvp, group pvp. you rely on your corpmates, and through the use of different tactics defeat the other group of players.
what makes eve fun (for some of us) is when these corporations join together to form alliances, which have a few thousand members (one wow server...). now these huge alliances battle over space for resources. the politics involved are incredible. and when the negotiations fail, we see fights with a few hundred people on every side.
so its not two guys kicking each other shins...
its the correct use of tactics through an agreed doctrine of ship fitting...
or at least one thousand guys kicking the other thousand guys shins
not to mention espionage...
but yeah, the game is very "mathematical". you need to understand how transversal velocity works, how signature radius is calculated into the damage formulas and so on...
every week there is a guy complaining why his huge battleship cant kill a small tiny frigate?
well your huge battleship normally fits huge guns, which cant track a small fast ship...
that is why a pack of cheap frigates will tear up an expensive battleship.
but people seem to miss the serenity of, as you say, clicking and shin kicking until someone drops dead. I am sure there are other systems for pvp, but eve chose this "mathematical" approach...and i can understand it only appeals to a certain group of people. i found it a lot of fun, but i can understand why most wouldn't.
again, eve is a great game, there is no other sandbox like it, you just need to get through the retarded new player experience, which is so horribly failed it hurts.
So anyway, after reading through the comments I have to leave my thoughts. Never mind that the thread is long dead.
Let's start with an assertion: The people saying eve is boring or unfun are idiots.
Not because they don't like the game. Nobody cares about that. It's because they apparently don't understand that other people might not have precisely same idea of 'fun' they do.
There are people who actually do want a greater level of involvement and responsibility than can be found in most MMOs. There are people who (gasp) like math. There are people who enjoy solving logistics puzzles. There are people who like to take actual risks for real (internet spaceship pixel) rewards or real losses. There are people for whom participating in the rise - and fall - of empires is the most thrilling thing in the world, no matter how boring it may seem to other people.
There are people who want, as you say, a game that is like a second job. These people thrive in EVE, and they are rewarded with bigger and better things. They can lead fleets, corporations or entire empires. They fly the biggest and shiniest ships, and earn the largest rewards.
There are also people who want a casual game. They, too can thrive here, and are rewarded by not having to grind for skill development, and with careers where one can turn a strong profit in a few hours a week.
There are people who like nothing more than dealing with supply chains, logistics and manufacturing, whose idea of a good time is a nice spreadsheet and a profit margin of 8-10%. These people, too, are having fun; it's just not your kind of fun.
And there's everybody in between.
.
EVE is a niche game. It was designed as such, and continues to be developed as such -- very successfully so. This has earned it a fiercely loyal player base, one which is still growing when some other MMOs have gone under due to the current economic situation.
If you try the trial, see all the tools for building and/or destroying sandcastles and quit because it's complicated, that's fine. It just means that it's not your cup of tea. I played the wow demo for 3 hours, and stopped because I kept thinking "I could be doing something useful right now, like mining". That doesn't mean wow is a bad game, it means that it's not for me.
Personally, I was hooked on eve from the first minute. I found the interface and controls well-thought-out and intuitive (I realise that I am alone in this). I used the multitude of available tools to find out what is what, found something I could do and dove in. I've never run missions, or even finished the tutorial. Nearly two years later I'm still hooked, and still learning new things every day.
.
To close, I would like to address a particular line of comments that really bugged me - the assertion that in PvP 100 vs 1 is unfair, dishonorable, unbalanced or cheating ('cheating' is a particularly stupid assertion to make, so we can ignore it). Probably what should make anybody who thinks this way run from eve screaming is that I actually can't work out what the problem is.
I could tell you about rule number one of eve: Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. I could name half a dozen reasons off the top of my head why harmless-appearing ships should be killed, instantly, with all available prejudice. I could tell you about how any pilot not specifically marked as an ally is an enemy by default and wants to kill you. But these data points don't come close to being a complete answer.
EVE is a deeply, pervasively hostile environment. Even beyond what is mentioned in in above posts, scamming, spying, theft, espionage, ganking and a dozen other activities that would be considered griefing, bannable offenses and possibly illegal in any other game, are allowed and /encouraged/ both by the game mechanics and by the devs themselves. This is *not* a friendly game.
Again, not for everyone. Cooperation is not the default in this game. If you fall victim to a scam, that's a valuable lesson -- one worth as much you lost. If you cross paths with another pilot, you don't invite them to form a fleet and go shoot space boars together -- you open fire, or run like a scared little forest elf. Eve is a highly competitive, darwinian game and your ideas of honor and fairness simply have no place in its culture or mechanics.
[end wall of text]
The review itself was, however, painfully accurate for anybody who does nothing but run missions in high-sec.
Let's start with an assertion: The people saying eve is boring or unfun are idiots.
Not because they don't like the game. Nobody cares about that. It's because they apparently don't understand that other people might not have precisely same idea of 'fun' they do.
There are people who actually do want a greater level of involvement and responsibility than can be found in most MMOs. There are people who (gasp) like math. There are people who enjoy solving logistics puzzles. There are people who like to take actual risks for real (internet spaceship pixel) rewards or real losses. There are people for whom participating in the rise - and fall - of empires is the most thrilling thing in the world, no matter how boring it may seem to other people.
There are people who want, as you say, a game that is like a second job. These people thrive in EVE, and they are rewarded with bigger and better things. They can lead fleets, corporations or entire empires. They fly the biggest and shiniest ships, and earn the largest rewards.
There are also people who want a casual game. They, too can thrive here, and are rewarded by not having to grind for skill development, and with careers where one can turn a strong profit in a few hours a week.
There are people who like nothing more than dealing with supply chains, logistics and manufacturing, whose idea of a good time is a nice spreadsheet and a profit margin of 8-10%. These people, too, are having fun; it's just not your kind of fun.
And there's everybody in between.
.
EVE is a niche game. It was designed as such, and continues to be developed as such -- very successfully so. This has earned it a fiercely loyal player base, one which is still growing when some other MMOs have gone under due to the current economic situation.
If you try the trial, see all the tools for building and/or destroying sandcastles and quit because it's complicated, that's fine. It just means that it's not your cup of tea. I played the wow demo for 3 hours, and stopped because I kept thinking "I could be doing something useful right now, like mining". That doesn't mean wow is a bad game, it means that it's not for me.
Personally, I was hooked on eve from the first minute. I found the interface and controls well-thought-out and intuitive (I realise that I am alone in this). I used the multitude of available tools to find out what is what, found something I could do and dove in. I've never run missions, or even finished the tutorial. Nearly two years later I'm still hooked, and still learning new things every day.
.
To close, I would like to address a particular line of comments that really bugged me - the assertion that in PvP 100 vs 1 is unfair, dishonorable, unbalanced or cheating ('cheating' is a particularly stupid assertion to make, so we can ignore it). Probably what should make anybody who thinks this way run from eve screaming is that I actually can't work out what the problem is.
I could tell you about rule number one of eve: Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. I could name half a dozen reasons off the top of my head why harmless-appearing ships should be killed, instantly, with all available prejudice. I could tell you about how any pilot not specifically marked as an ally is an enemy by default and wants to kill you. But these data points don't come close to being a complete answer.
EVE is a deeply, pervasively hostile environment. Even beyond what is mentioned in in above posts, scamming, spying, theft, espionage, ganking and a dozen other activities that would be considered griefing, bannable offenses and possibly illegal in any other game, are allowed and /encouraged/ both by the game mechanics and by the devs themselves. This is *not* a friendly game.
Again, not for everyone. Cooperation is not the default in this game. If you fall victim to a scam, that's a valuable lesson -- one worth as much you lost. If you cross paths with another pilot, you don't invite them to form a fleet and go shoot space boars together -- you open fire, or run like a scared little forest elf. Eve is a highly competitive, darwinian game and your ideas of honor and fairness simply have no place in its culture or mechanics.
[end wall of text]
The review itself was, however, painfully accurate for anybody who does nothing but run missions in high-sec.
Thank you, uc.asc ! For saying everything i wanted to.
People, please try the trial, and dont do the same mistake as Yathzee. Join a corp if you can, atleast make some friends, and see where you end up.
Try and bare with the imense learningcurve. If you get yourself through the first part, you will see the potential.
Send me a mail if you need help : Lojr
I can teach you a valuable lesson on why you should not trust strangers in Eve !
People, please try the trial, and dont do the same mistake as Yathzee. Join a corp if you can, atleast make some friends, and see where you end up.
Try and bare with the imense learningcurve. If you get yourself through the first part, you will see the potential.
Send me a mail if you need help : Lojr
I can teach you a valuable lesson on why you should not trust strangers in Eve !
uc.asc IMHO is completely right.
I've played WoW, L2, AoC. From myself I have to say that EVE is NOTHING like any other MMO. When you discover how to actually do things there, it is way less annoying than other MMO's. And the game becomes way deeper and more versatile than any other (at least in my experience).
Yahtzee either just doesn't know the sh*t or tries to fulfill WoW fans and console gamers' dreams. Or, most likely, this is just not a Yahtzee type of game. He looks like he has played LOTS of games, so I respect his point of view. Review is fun, though.
P.S. If someone is not capable of even completing the tutorial it doesn't mean the game is bad. No offense, just fact.
I've played WoW, L2, AoC. From myself I have to say that EVE is NOTHING like any other MMO. When you discover how to actually do things there, it is way less annoying than other MMO's. And the game becomes way deeper and more versatile than any other (at least in my experience).
Yahtzee either just doesn't know the sh*t or tries to fulfill WoW fans and console gamers' dreams. Or, most likely, this is just not a Yahtzee type of game. He looks like he has played LOTS of games, so I respect his point of view. Review is fun, though.
P.S. If someone is not capable of even completing the tutorial it doesn't mean the game is bad. No offense, just fact.
I want to make a point here in relation to EVE and all other MMO's i've played.Kaiyen said:
I've tried a few MMO's and the one thing that always preventing me from liking it was the "shin-kicking".
It would appear from a good few of the comments that a lot of people missed the point of that statement so i'm going to elaborate on what I think Yahtzee is on about.
Even though mmo's are played live their combat is based on turn based games, hence the "taking turns" to kick each other in the shins.
The thing I personally hate about this is that it has "nothing" to do with skill. As an example i'm going to compare Oblivion & WoW;
If an enemy was to attempt to hit me with a sword in Oblivion I can dodge my character in different directions, block the attack, try strike the opponent before he hits me etc.
Same scenario, an enemy engages me in WoW (or any other mmo) it's a game of chess turns are taken you select your favourite attacks/powers but you cannot use your own reaction times to influence your characters movements to gain an edge in the battle.
Finally, the player with the biggest boots (higher LVL/Spec'd armor & clothes) will win after 10-40mins of taking turns shin-kicking.
How does EVE try to be like WoW Surggical_Scar?
I played the Trial and from what I played, it's NOTHING like WoW. Completely different at that.
I know it can get repetitive, but I'm sure if you took the time to play it for a bit it could be really fun
I played the Trial and from what I played, it's NOTHING like WoW. Completely different at that.
I know it can get repetitive, but I'm sure if you took the time to play it for a bit it could be really fun
The Atheist Knight, I get your point and here you are right. You can try Age of Conan since its combat system is realtime and fun. However, i abandoned AoC, it still felt like WoW even with its challenging and thrilling realtime combat.
But in EVE it is the social aspect that's better than anywhere else. There are things similar to many MMORPG's, but still there are way more things different in it. Everything is driven by players. Almost every little thing in the game and any ship is manufactured by someone, corporations (like clans in WoW) have real politics, diplomacy, production (not those that you have in WoW and L2, I mean real ones). Recons and moral disorientations during blockades, big tragedies of collapsing 2500-member alliances And trust me, you have to fit your ship and to act really smart to actually be successful over other players. I does require skill. Lots of it. EVE is very hardcore, though. Often you lose your ship and you are screwed - paid insurance can cover only a ship itself, not precious rare equipment. And you lose ships there. A lot. You need to think how to earn money. You can officially pay for the game with in-game money in the game itself (costs A LOT, though).
There are no levels here, no classes. You don't have to actually be in the game to train your character's skills. For me, the game can be both relaxing and thrilling. Until i lose my ship... Then, I have to admit, it might become disturbing if that is my main, favorite and expensive ship))
The game can get REALLY complicated until you get along with it (will take at least a week to get a handle of basic gameplay mechanics), but it is both challenging and different.
But in EVE it is the social aspect that's better than anywhere else. There are things similar to many MMORPG's, but still there are way more things different in it. Everything is driven by players. Almost every little thing in the game and any ship is manufactured by someone, corporations (like clans in WoW) have real politics, diplomacy, production (not those that you have in WoW and L2, I mean real ones). Recons and moral disorientations during blockades, big tragedies of collapsing 2500-member alliances And trust me, you have to fit your ship and to act really smart to actually be successful over other players. I does require skill. Lots of it. EVE is very hardcore, though. Often you lose your ship and you are screwed - paid insurance can cover only a ship itself, not precious rare equipment. And you lose ships there. A lot. You need to think how to earn money. You can officially pay for the game with in-game money in the game itself (costs A LOT, though).
There are no levels here, no classes. You don't have to actually be in the game to train your character's skills. For me, the game can be both relaxing and thrilling. Until i lose my ship... Then, I have to admit, it might become disturbing if that is my main, favorite and expensive ship))
The game can get REALLY complicated until you get along with it (will take at least a week to get a handle of basic gameplay mechanics), but it is both challenging and different.
Heh, Yahtzee really failed at this one...
I believe he didn't really play the game as it should be played, and most of the commenters were so influenced by this, damn. Yes, EVE is hard, and takes a day or two to get used to it, but believe me, it scares off idiots. As the posts above say, the social part of this game is unrivaled by anything so far. I wouldn't be playing EVE if I weren't taking part every day in fleet operations, let it be exploration, mining or combat.
Also, if you don't like the skill system and the interface, then you seriously need to get back to WoW. Here, it's not the ingame skills, but your own skills are what matter anyway. The game is unforgiving but not for the smart ones, and I never ever saw a game built up as logically as EVE. Yes it might be complex, but it's logical, and everything has its use. Hell, if you complain about EVE, try X2.
There's a style for everyone. Try PvP if you're the shoot em up guy, or try market PvP which entirely depends on your skills, mine, explore, manufacture. What did I forget? Missions. You can do that too, but if you do ONLY that, you can might as well go play any other MMO, since that's the only common part, and I'd say the least used by clever players.
Yes, EVE is unforgiving and that's where it rocks really. Life is never fair, and nobody said all video games should be. The difference in EVE that in view with its extensiveness, it's well balanced I'd say, where YOU, not your ship decide what will happen in a fight. Be smart and you'll survive. Also guys, I don't see your problem with the interface and tutorial. Try making a game where you can do more than this, with less interface and learning.
And don't forget, you do this in corporations. As mentioned above, not joining corporations is like playing an FPS without shooting. Yahtzee did exactly this... I always thought he was funny, though a bit narrow minded, but he succesfully passed the point where I don't care about such people. And the worst in it that people who would possibly love this game now hate it because of your video.
Medve
I believe he didn't really play the game as it should be played, and most of the commenters were so influenced by this, damn. Yes, EVE is hard, and takes a day or two to get used to it, but believe me, it scares off idiots. As the posts above say, the social part of this game is unrivaled by anything so far. I wouldn't be playing EVE if I weren't taking part every day in fleet operations, let it be exploration, mining or combat.
Also, if you don't like the skill system and the interface, then you seriously need to get back to WoW. Here, it's not the ingame skills, but your own skills are what matter anyway. The game is unforgiving but not for the smart ones, and I never ever saw a game built up as logically as EVE. Yes it might be complex, but it's logical, and everything has its use. Hell, if you complain about EVE, try X2.
There's a style for everyone. Try PvP if you're the shoot em up guy, or try market PvP which entirely depends on your skills, mine, explore, manufacture. What did I forget? Missions. You can do that too, but if you do ONLY that, you can might as well go play any other MMO, since that's the only common part, and I'd say the least used by clever players.
Yes, EVE is unforgiving and that's where it rocks really. Life is never fair, and nobody said all video games should be. The difference in EVE that in view with its extensiveness, it's well balanced I'd say, where YOU, not your ship decide what will happen in a fight. Be smart and you'll survive. Also guys, I don't see your problem with the interface and tutorial. Try making a game where you can do more than this, with less interface and learning.
And don't forget, you do this in corporations. As mentioned above, not joining corporations is like playing an FPS without shooting. Yahtzee did exactly this... I always thought he was funny, though a bit narrow minded, but he succesfully passed the point where I don't care about such people. And the worst in it that people who would possibly love this game now hate it because of your video.
Medve
i love this video. finally something to make fun of that stupid game. All of my guy friends obsessed over it and bugged me to play it when i found it worthless and annoying.
Hi 5 and kudos galore.
Hi 5 and kudos galore.
I don't know if you're going to read this, but if you do - please do a review of "A Tale In the Desert". It's a great second-job simulator that's seriously more complex than your regular job (and probably more tedious) but it's really quite amazing in some way. I think it would make for a great review.
Thanks. (No, I'm not a troll, I really mean it.)
Thanks. (No, I'm not a troll, I really mean it.)
Just remember, not everything has to be about magic, orcs or killing things. In Eve, you can certainly become an expert fighter pilot, but you can also mine, research, become an arms dealer, manufacture weapons for whatever war is currently raging, or pretty much anything you want to be. Sure, skills can take time, but the fact you can train while AFK is a GOOD thing. And yes the beginning can seem a bit overwhelming, but with good in game tutorials, helpful players and guides for everything from mining to making your first million, if it is given a chance, the game really does take you away from your troubles. I've been playing fro 3 years and somehow have managed my social life, various jobs (I work from home now) and my marriage. It is doable.
