Zero Punctuation: Metal Gear Solid 4

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Tempdude0

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Jun 27, 2008
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The fact isn't that there's storytelling an immersion. The fact is this game goes nuts with info. Storytelling is a good thing provided the writer has at least a little restraint or the ability to toss copious amounts of data at us without it becoming an exercise in tedium. The MGS series has an issue with both. Kojima can paint a brilliant world and mold a truly heart wrenching story, but it's somewhat undercut by the fact that so much is added. Take the scene at the end of MGS 3. That should be how all cutscenes go. Well, not all, but you get my point. Important information all the way through with emphasis placed where it needed to be to really hammer home the point, but not so much as to beat it into the audience. The visuals and the music accompany said writing in such a way that all three blend together to create a stunning effect, so much so the simple salute at the end and the haunting melody bring even the most hardened of hearts to tears.

This is the problem people have with the new game. It doesn't establish a balance between the three, or even attempts to tone down the writing, it just tosses info about willy nilly in an attempt to wrap everything up. In fact I can almost guarantee that if the cutscenes had at least a little editing and trimming and the extra fluff was relegated to the comm system that more people would be touting it as amazing.

And yes, there is such a thing as "too much story telling." If a story is about Bob and you suddenly go into a tangent about Bobs cousin Jim who like to ride motorcycles and wore a faded denim jacket with one arm missing, who's actions involving a python and a tube stake ran out of control and resulted in the scar on Bobs left ear...Well, you see how it gets? Extra info is nice, yes, but at a certain point it has to be relegated to it's place as EXTRA (superfluous) information, not given a starring role.

References to previous games are also just fine, provided you know what to reference and when. It's again, a balancing act. If you can't tell, I love the hell out of MGS 3, but it failed to balance some of it's writing as well. It segued into WORDS WORDS WORDS every once in a while with the only thing to break up the uninteresting and pointless ranting being the ability to change to first person point of view...Though I give them credit where it's due. The scenes with the Sorrow and the countdown, they were funny. I half expected him to just get a huge grin while pointing to Snake and then to the bomb timer, silently mouthing "Neener neener neener, you're going to get blown up." or something to that extent.

Oh, and some arcade shooters manage to have a decent story. See Time Splitters. The last one, while goofy as hell, managed to give a feel for Cortez. It's not brilliant writing, but it's enough to give him some personality and bring him to the point where he's less the guy holding the guns and more of a person. I realize the game t'ain't that great, but I do love me some good old fashioned crazy shootin' action with oddball characters. That's neither here nor there though.
 

NezumiiroKitsune

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Mar 29, 2008
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This is the first time I actually got round to watching the review what with my girlfriend selling her brain for strawberry shortcake and constant worry, as well as actualy playing MGS4 when real life isnt beating me the stick of sickening disspointment.

This review was excellent, I enjoyed it alot and cant wait till next Wedensday! I'm currently enjoying MGS4, and I sort of get whats happening :p It really is frigging bananas.

I have a pounding headche so I'll leave it there.

Also I'm a little ashamed to say this is turning into another SSBB! What the hell guys? We're PS3 gamers, we don't stoop to the level of complaining in long overly verbose honestly painful to read articles on points no one cares about do we?! Seriously I am bloody ashamed, some most of these posts are as long as a chapter of a very boring book. Good God, go play MGO...
 

TerraMGP

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Jun 25, 2008
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Tempdude0 you totally missed my point. The lord of the rings is not 'trying', at least not in my opinion. Ive read though them all in one sittng many times, I know plenty of other people who have too. Tolkien is not trying hes GRIPPING. but as I said try reading though the Silmarillion, or better yet go read the brothers Karamazov. The whole point is you talk about LotR as if its a CHORE. Your only showing that you CAN read though it like that, not that you enjoy sitting there and reading though it all.

But yes this was Hideos Silmarillion so to speak. This was the be all end all of his work. Granted Tolkiens son assembled the Silmarillion from his notes, but thats not the point. People think its too much storytelling beacuse they don't understand, or perhaps don't care how intricate the man is. He's detail oriented. The whole intention of this game was to tie up all the loose ends. Again its like saying any number of books would be 'bad' because they go into more detail and more character development than the usual novel. Its not bad writing to have detail on that level so much as it is HARD TO UNDERSTAND, its challenging. Its not all just spoon fed to you or even handed out moderately with a fast enough pace to keep action up. Its a harder, but far more rewarding experience just like reading really dry, detailed books that are well written. Lord of the rings is not dry, and while briliant does not have an over-abundance of detail and backstory. I don't think that the problem is bad storytelling, I think that the problem is at best a lack of interest in the reader/viewer and an inability to see the effort/reward ratio as being more reward because for you the work is far too great. If so thats fine, its like disliking a book thats well written because its too long or has too much character development. Nothing wrong with that, just don't accuse it of having bad writing people.
 

Whoracle

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Jan 7, 2008
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You don't seem to get the point.

Yes, Detail, character development et al are good. Very good, in fact. But detail and story is only half. The other half is how the story and details are PRESENTED. And that's done badly in the Silmarillion and seemingly badly in MGS4. It seems you've got a higher threshold for crappy writing (NOT content, mind!), but a) condemning Yahtzee for being hypocritical when his writing is better is simply wrong. That is not saying his Storyline or attention to detail are better, but his telling seems to be. And b) all of this doesn't make the telling in MGS better. Yes, it may be the Epitome of Kojimas writing, and yes, maybe his story and attention to detail are great, though that would depend on ones taste, but the objective part, the WAY OF TELLING the story, is simply bad.
 

PedroSteckecilo

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Feb 7, 2008
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mspencer82 said:
z121231211 said:
BTW, How is MGS badly written?
Oh let me count the ways...

SPOILERS FOR ALL OF THE METAL GEAR GAMES!

1) Excessively words dialogue that repeats information over and over.

2) Conspiracies for the sake of conspiracies and conspiracies inside of conspiracies. Honestly, the "9/11 was a cover up" and fake moon landing nutjobs are poking fun at Kojima.

3) Inconsistency. The plot changes so much from game to game that retcons are necessary for every event. "Big Boss lost his eye in the 80s", "Ocelot is working for the president", "No wait, Ocelot is working for the Patriots", "The Patriots are A.I.s who magically grew out of our government but really died 100 years ago", "Big Boss lost his eye in the 60s", "Ocelot was working for the Philosophers", "Ocelot is possessed by Liquid's arm", "The American Philosophers became the Patriots", "Ocelot is a Patriot", "Nope, Ocelot is working against the Patriots", "The Patriots are really Big Boss and friends who are trying to create a new world order because they hate what the Philosophers did", "The Patriots are really A.I.s (again) who were created by Zero in the 90s or possibly early 2000s", "Ocelot isn't really possessed by Liquid's arm, losing his mind was all a clever tactic".

ARGH!

By the way, don't get me started on dominant and recessive genes or the other horribly bad science we see throughout the series.
I'm a fan of the Metal Gear Series and I can't argue with those points, mspencer has the series pegged. Though personally I love the BAD SCIENCE in Metal Gear Games, as I always saw them as more Anime/Science-Fiction than as Hard Military Espionage.
 

TerraMGP

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Jun 25, 2008
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Whoracle said:
You don't seem to get the point.

Yes, Detail, character development et al are good. Very good, in fact. But detail and story is only half. The other half is how the story and details are PRESENTED. And that's done badly in the Silmarillion and seemingly badly in MGS4. It seems you've got a higher threshold for crappy writing (NOT content, mind!), but a) condemning Yahtzee for being hypocritical when his writing is better is simply wrong. That is not saying his Storyline or attention to detail are better, but his telling seems to be. And b) all of this doesn't make the telling in MGS better. Yes, it may be the Epitome of Kojimas writing, and yes, maybe his story and attention to detail are great, though that would depend on ones taste, but the objective part, the WAY OF TELLING the story, is simply bad.
The fact that ANYONE can think that its done badly in the Silmarillion.... I'm done with this conversation. To call that crappy writing, seriously that is just wrong. The Silmarillion is an AMAZING book that does a wonderful job of telling its story. Its not bad because your looking at it in the wrong way, its not a conventional story that just hands you all the info off the bat. I think thats the problem here, people are confusing unconventional storytelling, more detailed and elaborate and complex story telling with bad story telling. I seriously don't understand how you could ever, EVER consider the Silmarillion bad writing but whatever causes that is probably why people don't like the MGS story.
 

TerraMGP

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Jun 25, 2008
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If you just want to play the game you should have bought another game, and if you can't understand why details are repeated in the series then frankly your not paying close enough attention. The problem is that people see these 'merits' as things held against COMMON games. This is part of a series. Its like picking up the last book in a series that has a writing style you don't like and complaining that the story is bad because you don't understand it and you think plot points are repeated way too much. In the end I think the problem is with people having too narrow a view of what video games should be and lacking an appreciation for the writing.

As for why your trying, I think its because your too dense to realize your wrong.
 

TerraMGP

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Jun 25, 2008
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Look, anyone who thinks the writing is that bad will never enjoy it and should never have gotten it anyways, and they should know this from the previous three games. If you don't do your homework before you get a game its your fault for getting one you don't like, and if you really think that the writing is bad again you probably think the Silmarillion is bad and I frankly don't feel the need to defend myself to anyone who can't at least respect that literary gem. As for the parallels to Yatzees writing, if you honestly can't see them by this point your just not paying attention, and if your trying to justify it as "well they were adventure games" your just too freaking narrow minded about games.
 

Kanashe

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May 8, 2008
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brice85 said:
TerraMGP (Pants-on-head-retarded) said:
People think its too much storytelling beacuse they don't understand, or perhaps don't care how intricate the man is. He's detail oriented. The whole intention of this game was to tie up all the loose ends.
</RE-fail>

Let me stop you right there professor... People say it's too much storytelling because they don't WANT or NEED to understand; because:
A. They want to PLAY the GAME already,
B. The "detailed" information was already referenced and belabored 49,637.2 times already, or
C. All of the above.

You can still have a game that is detailed oriented that does not remove you from being IN the game, and instead leave you being a helpless observer of a cinematic cut-scene. That's like going to read a book and the entire book is pictures. You want to CREATE the pictures in your head, not have them spelled out for you, eliminating the need for you imagination.

If you liked the previous MGS's, and you're an OCD information-whore, then great; I'm sure this was right up your alley.

But since a lot of people haven't, and we're still allowed to hold games accountable to their individual merits regardless what "series" they're apart of--since they are all still GAMES at their core--then you'll just have to forgive the majority of people for basing it against the very medium it claims to be a part of.

I feel as though someone else already said this though, like the person who created the video you've been brainlessly commenting on for the past few days... so I'm not sure why I'm trying too :(
Listen ya want GAME PLAY then go an play Painkiller or Serious Sam. It'll give enough game play for your dried up brain, MGS focuses on story telling an plot twists, that what makes it original an unique. If we wanted just game play, we could get pointless shit like Splinter Cell, or the pointless FPS shooters
 

Geo Da Sponge

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May 14, 2008
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KIFulgore said:
Great review... basically everything I thought would be wrong with MGS4 (or at least could be better).

Now about the Ninja Gaiden 2 trailer, did they *really* use that fucking CCHHJJJJUUURRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHH!!!!!! scream you hear in every cheesy B-movie, shitty game, and horror movie trailer ever created??
You mean the 'CCHHJJJJUUURRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHH!!!!!' that was originally, as far as I know, used in Starcraft? Which everyone knows is a 'shitty game'.
 

Whoracle

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TerraMGP said:
The fact that ANYONE can think that its done badly in the Silmarillion.... I'm done with this conversation. To call that crappy writing, seriously that is just wrong. The Silmarillion is an AMAZING book that does a wonderful job of telling its story. Its not bad because your looking at it in the wrong way, its not a conventional story that just hands you all the info off the bat. I think thats the problem here, people are confusing unconventional storytelling, more detailed and elaborate and complex story telling with bad story telling. I seriously don't understand how you could ever, EVER consider the Silmarillion bad writing but whatever causes that is probably why people don't like the MGS story.
OK, here's the deal. When I get back tonight, I'll post you the commonly, world-wide accepted writing guidelines and show you, how the Silmarillion won't fit. And, to make my point perfectly clear: IT's storyline is great. It really is. But nothing more.
 

TerraMGP

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Jun 25, 2008
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I realize the book does not fit convention but its still good. Sometimes the best works are those that break conventions. It does not technically fit the monomyth but it does not have to. Why is it so hard to understand strict adherence to the norm is not always best?
 

Darkpen

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what's funny is that I think that the people who are agreeing with yahtzee are people who were never really into the series, which would explain the lackluster review. I think he just got so confused, but didn't want anyone to be butthurt, that he sort of half-assed trying to learn the game's intricacies.

But on the other hand, I think its also a candid view of what it must be like for someone that may purchase MGS4 because of whatever reason, and be totally baffled by not only the controls, but the story as well.
 

TerraMGP

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Jun 25, 2008
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I think many of the people here though are complaining about the story, and are doing so in part because Yatzee said he does not like it. Its a sad sad day when people treat Yatzee in the same manner as the mainstream reviewers and shape their opinions around what he says rather than thinking for themselves, which was kind of the reason he started this whole review thing, breaking conventions and getting to the brass tacks.
 

PONAGE999

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May 22, 2008
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The game's O.K. The cutscenes are a pain if you're not part of the MGS bandwagon, so if you haven't played any other MGS games before, you'll be bored to death with the hour long cutscenes.