Zero Punctuation: The Conduit

[Tiakinz]

Hey, all you guys going on about how you can adjust the controls and all that?

Let's put it this way, I shouldn't /have/ to adjust them just so I can look up, down or what have you. It's just good game design to make that the /default/ rather than a customization.

Kthx.

PS. Wii fanwhores: Hush now, no one's really listening to you anyway. <3

It's true, for the most part, that adjusting controls should really be for slight tweaking, and shouldn't be something that make the difference between being able to and not being able to turn or look up. But the sheer number of posts in response to the defending of the wii shows that those defending are, obviously, being listened to. It also leads me to believe that Yahtzee is enough in the minority in his dislike of the wii that it's really more of a bias on his part than an impartial observation. I wonder, though, whether Yahtzee's opinion of the wii would have changed if the conduit was good...

A few things - The Wii *isn't* a good system. It has a few games that are good(oh oh, FOR THE WII), and a few that are faintly amusing at best when you're shitfaced off your knackers and don't know any better anyway.

Second- Most of what I saw in regards to wiiwhores was either open mockery of them, or telling them they're wrong. If they were being /listened/ to, opinion would shift to match their own.

Call it semantics if you will, don't bother me none. <3

I'm surprised you're so quick to be such an obvious troll after only two posts. I wonder if you've been banned for something? Not that you'd admit it if it were true, so you'd be hard pressed to convince me to believe otherwise.

Your steadfast hatred of the Wii implies that you probably don't know enough about it to really have a decent trustworthy opinion, in much the same way I haven't ever played halo, and can therefore say nothing as to its merits or faults. However, what I can say is what statistics say, and statistics say that more people have a wii. What I can also say is that the Wii does not have a very strong lineup of games for someone who plays them quickly and constantly. For someone with a life outside of gaming, say, a person with a job (me in the summer) or a person in college (me otherwise) this generally isn't the case. For us, there are enough genuinely amazing games (not just my own opinion, but the shared opinion of friends, acquaintances, and, more importantly, many critics alike) to last plenty long enough, and they're piling up even, waiting to be played, and I want to play them all. Furthermore, graphics aren't entirely controlled by a system. As was shown by a variety of games on all systems, it's really the developers that have the most control of how the graphics on any given console can be made to look their best. And graphics are really generally not enough of an issue to be bothered by, unless they're particularly noticeably bad. And no, the good wii games are not that.

I will now take a moment to pick apart your statement and find all the things that are wrong with it.

You say that the wii isn't a good system, but I think that given the amount of people saying otherwise and the enjoyment my friends and I get playing it prove that not to be the case. Yes, there are games that are "good for the wii," but there are also games that are "good". It has genuinely good games. Even Yahtzee's admitted that, and on multiple occasions, usually in areas other than Zero Punctuation, but occasionally there too. Your use of the word "amusing" implies that you think you're somehow more intelligent than, and above people who, own a wii, which is a very egotistical and shallow thing to think. It implies that you've viewed from a distance, but never actually attempted to enjoy the wii, because of that formerly mentioned state of mind. Plenty of us play all the consoles, especially in a college environment (I know that's the second time I've brought that up - I'm not trying to shield behind that fact, it's just that it makes a good example and statistic sample), and have therefore had enough experience to formulate a good opinion on all consoles. Naturally, this becomes biased based on your closer friends, so if all your friends like the PS3 and make fun of the Wii, you probably will too, much like how in high school for me everyone had the same console and everyone who didn't was wrong for some reason. You keep saying things like "wiiwhores," which gives me pause to wonder if you didn't notice that not everyone defending the wii made an invalid argument, in much the same way that most of the people who attack it do. It also supports my theory of your opinion I got from the word amuse. And, as a good segway from that, those attacking the wii, "open mockery/telling them they're wrong" is a poor argument, and one that is generally formed when the attacker can't think of any other reasons to support his own view, much the same way politicians attack each others' credibility when there's nothing wrong with their opponents' policies. Next, you seem to be confusing the meanings of "listen" and "becoming convinced." I listen to the ideas my friends have about studying. They're all different. I don't agree with all of them. But I listened to them. After hearing them, I decided, based on my listening, that I would disagree with most of them and only agree with my friend who got good grades all the time.

Finally, to say that it doesn't "bother you none" is quite an apparent hypocritical and commonly used argumentative shield, that is used to make the poster feel as though he isn't taking the argument as seriously as a fanboy, when he most definitely is, otherwise the comment would be unnecessary. If it doesn't bother you, you wouldn't have posted that in a REPLY to your previous post. Clearly, something bothered you a bit.

And another thing: the first thing I said in my quote of your post was in agreement to something you said - that you shouldn't have to adjust default settings to make a game playable. I agreed with you, and then you called people who defend the wii idiots (or implied it, anyway). What's that say about you? Hmm?

Maybe you should have done more listening. And also, don't do this: <3. It makes it hard to take you seriously if you're trying to make a point.

Sweetheart, the very fact that you went into such a long winded diatribe about your beliefs upon my experiences with the Wii and, /personal/ opinion on the system indicates you care far too much.

And, if I so choose, I shall use a <3 when and where I please.

I have played the Wii, point of fact. I have a lot of experience with the Wii, and the systems competing with it. I don't think it's that great of a system, fin. Calling me a troll and heading into a paragraphs long explanation of why my opinion is wrong and how I clearly believe i'm far above the rest of you just means you have more time on your hands than one is led to believe in your diatribe, and that perchance you have nothing better to do than make personality judgements based off what is essentially, nothing.

Essentially, one can view all your superfluous extrapolations upon what i'm saying as you in turn trolling me and being a hypocrite. The fact remains, you're taking some text on a forum, from a random comment to heart more than I, and perhaps the majority of people who've commented on this thread - however I won't pretend I know how they think and feel, just as you've decided to pretend you know how I do.

Meanwhile, I shall keep to my particular writing style and giggle about how much it seems to matter to you.

Alas, the internet is such a wonderful thing, non?

Damn right I take this more seriously than you.

I never said I didn't. I just said you were pretending you didn't take this seriously. And since you're post is also very long, I seem to have been right about at least that.

You should look up the definition of "troll."

"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion." - wikipedia

Troll posts are generally short. People who say "yea, th wi iz teh suckzorz" or something are trolls. You and I are not those. After viewing your later posts I rescind that comment the view that you are one.

Also, damn right I take this to heart. It hurts when someone says you have a poor opinion. It is human nature to try and convince them otherwise, to some degree. Yahtzee once said that if you like a game and see a poor review, it shouldn't bother you, but I think it should, since no one likes to be told, especially by someone important, that they are incorrect. I am not trying to convince you that the Conduit is a good game. I am trying to see if you refute my other points, rather than attacking my credibility, something I realized I did to you, and am doing now, but only in addition to making what I think are valid points.

Those valid points:
The wii is a better system than Yahtzee gives it credit for.
There are many very good games on the wii that are more than comparable to those on other systems, albeit the other systems may have better third-party games.
Third-party developers have yet to understand how to make a game that utilizes the wii to its full capacity.
People who make large-scale slanderous statements tend to come off as people who are condemning something they don't know enough about, and don't wish to learn more of, i.e., ignorant.
People who lead busy lives don't actually need that many games, although that's not an excuse for bad games being made.

I gave a few possible explanations for such behavior. I have yet to get one from the slanderers. Perhaps you'll be the first.

And as for the free time, my internship ended Friday. I have a large pile of wii games I'd like to get to playing, but I'm still in my NYC apartment and the wii is at home. I realize there was no way for you to know that about my current scenario, but the point is still valid.

But I am impressed by your rebuttal. Well done (not sarcastic, I promise). I usually get more mind-numbing filth.

To enter a matter of semantics, I can still reason you were trolling due to the fact that any stance upon myself is essentially off-topic, for I really don't matter to the issue of the game at hand.

As for the stance of me not caring. You bet I don't. I don't care whether someone agrees with me or not, for I stand strong with my opinions and no one has to like them.

Now, here's where we shed some light on the fact that I don't really think /any/ of the systems are that great, currently. I could go play yet /another/ sequel of a game I have for a previous version of the aformentioned system, or I could save myself some time and money and just play the version of the game I know I love and be done with it.

The wii being a better system than Yahtzee giving it credit for remains a stance of opinion, and a completely refuteable matter depending on who you talk to.

The stance of games being good or not - again, a purely opinion based matter, and not something anyone can quantify as 100% true or false. But - let's put it this way, just because the graphics on the other systems are better, does not mean games are good. Nor does a lack of graphical quality. Else the classics would never be replayed.

Third-Party developers are something you can only speculate on. Unless you're one of them, you can't tell me 100% they don't understand how to utilize the system to it's full capacity.

People who condemn etc etc - We're still in the matter of opinions and speculation. No one can say for sure what my, or anyone else's experiences are like(but of course ourselves) and it all remains electronic text on the internetz.

Annnnd finally, I know many busy people who have a lot of games. Just because you don't, doesn't make that the precedent.

Explanations? Ha, easy: I have my opinion, you have yours. Tres simple, non?

Off I go! Whoosh! HAPPY ENDINGS FOR ALL.

 

[chenry]

I wanted to love The Conduit. I really, really did. It was supposed to be the big Wii game this year. This was supposed to be the year that I didn't regret buying the Wii.

Well FUCK THAT because the Conduit is shit. It is complete crap. Spiritual successor to Perfect Dark my ass. At least that game had a variety of weapons, levels, and enemies. Conduit on the other hand has like 8 weapons and only half of them are remotely useful. The orb is annoying, and the enemies are generic and repetitive. The levels are bland, the missions are bland, the story is bullshit, and even the voice acting sounds bored. And it has William fucking Morgan goddamn Shepard!

The Conduit gets a free pass by a lot of critics because it's a Wii game, and compared to other Wii games the Conduit is fuckin' awesome. But that's disingenuous, you can't rate the thing without considering other games. I've played better games on older systems. Just because the game managed to not burn down my whole house doesn't mean its any good.

The game's difficulty curve resembles a cliff face and you're at the base of it. The first 3/4 of the game are a cake walk, and then suddenly the game becomes controller-throwing difficult. You battle your way through waves of enemies, get to the prenultimate final mission, and just as you're preparing for what is sure to be an epic boss fight, THE FUCKING GAME ENDS!

It's bland, generic, with a barely-there story and annoying aliens. And the only saving grace is competent multiplayer.

Y'know what, Conduit is the Wii's Halo.

The only praise I will give the Conduit is the controls are balls-tighteningly good. Full customization about near every aspect of the controls. Tighten or widen the dead box, adjust all the sensitivities. Everything can be messed with on the controls. All other Wii games should have this level of customization.

 

[rudeskata]

He's able to make his point so much better when he leaves out all the good parts of the game. It's a real shame he didn't mess around with the FULLY CUSTOMIZABLE CONTROLS at all, maybe then he wouldn't have had problems with hislosing position off screen. See, if the game had been reviewed completely these details are hard to miss.

Perhaps not a whole lot of time and effort is put into your reviews and that's your thing, but I hope people aren't fooled into believing they're comprehensive by any means.

 

[Antiparticle]

Ah! Yahtzee is back in form! This is the first review in the last few weeks that made me laugh out loud repeatedly. Nice one!

 

[Lord Chaos 2]

Under a killing moon was a great game, kudos for obscure reference

Great review as always.

 

[144_v1legacy]

Yes. Yes I am.

And I love it.

You do know what it stands for, right--"Too long; didn't read"? I'm not sure what's to love about making posts worthy of that reply...

Admittedly, I had to look it up. But I knew when posting.

You probably won't bother reading this either, but ...

... a long post generally has the implication that it has had thought go into it before its publication, meaning that the writer may appear to have some sort of valid point to make. The post wasn't really for you, anyway. The post's purpose was to win an argument with someone using valid points and material that's hard to argue. The more good points one has, the longer the post becomes, unless it's unnecessarily wordy (like this). But being unnecessarily wordy has its own advantages, as it makes it a hard slog to read, and as such, anyone who wants to argue against it will ultimately have to read the entire thing in order to respond negatively to it, otherwise they risk appearing called out on not listening to the world around them, and even if they say its too long and they didn't read it (I'm not referring to you, though) the same outcome occurs, only exaggerated, as people will look at them and say "those are people who refuse to see what they don't want to."

In short (read this): a lot of words are daunting, and are a pain to argue against with any sort of viable credibility.

 

[144_v1legacy]

Hey, all you guys going on about how you can adjust the controls and all that?

Let's put it this way, I shouldn't /have/ to adjust them just so I can look up, down or what have you. It's just good game design to make that the /default/ rather than a customization.

Kthx.

PS. Wii fanwhores: Hush now, no one's really listening to you anyway. <3

It's true, for the most part, that adjusting controls should really be for slight tweaking, and shouldn't be something that make the difference between being able to and not being able to turn or look up. But the sheer number of posts in response to the defending of the wii shows that those defending are, obviously, being listened to. It also leads me to believe that Yahtzee is enough in the minority in his dislike of the wii that it's really more of a bias on his part than an impartial observation. I wonder, though, whether Yahtzee's opinion of the wii would have changed if the conduit was good...

A few things - The Wii *isn't* a good system. It has a few games that are good(oh oh, FOR THE WII), and a few that are faintly amusing at best when you're shitfaced off your knackers and don't know any better anyway.

Second- Most of what I saw in regards to wiiwhores was either open mockery of them, or telling them they're wrong. If they were being /listened/ to, opinion would shift to match their own.

Call it semantics if you will, don't bother me none. <3

I'm surprised you're so quick to be such an obvious troll after only two posts. I wonder if you've been banned for something? Not that you'd admit it if it were true, so you'd be hard pressed to convince me to believe otherwise.

Your steadfast hatred of the Wii implies that you probably don't know enough about it to really have a decent trustworthy opinion, in much the same way I haven't ever played halo, and can therefore say nothing as to its merits or faults. However, what I can say is what statistics say, and statistics say that more people have a wii. What I can also say is that the Wii does not have a very strong lineup of games for someone who plays them quickly and constantly. For someone with a life outside of gaming, say, a person with a job (me in the summer) or a person in college (me otherwise) this generally isn't the case. For us, there are enough genuinely amazing games (not just my own opinion, but the shared opinion of friends, acquaintances, and, more importantly, many critics alike) to last plenty long enough, and they're piling up even, waiting to be played, and I want to play them all. Furthermore, graphics aren't entirely controlled by a system. As was shown by a variety of games on all systems, it's really the developers that have the most control of how the graphics on any given console can be made to look their best. And graphics are really generally not enough of an issue to be bothered by, unless they're particularly noticeably bad. And no, the good wii games are not that.

I will now take a moment to pick apart your statement and find all the things that are wrong with it.

You say that the wii isn't a good system, but I think that given the amount of people saying otherwise and the enjoyment my friends and I get playing it prove that not to be the case. Yes, there are games that are "good for the wii," but there are also games that are "good". It has genuinely good games. Even Yahtzee's admitted that, and on multiple occasions, usually in areas other than Zero Punctuation, but occasionally there too. Your use of the word "amusing" implies that you think you're somehow more intelligent than, and above people who, own a wii, which is a very egotistical and shallow thing to think. It implies that you've viewed from a distance, but never actually attempted to enjoy the wii, because of that formerly mentioned state of mind. Plenty of us play all the consoles, especially in a college environment (I know that's the second time I've brought that up - I'm not trying to shield behind that fact, it's just that it makes a good example and statistic sample), and have therefore had enough experience to formulate a good opinion on all consoles. Naturally, this becomes biased based on your closer friends, so if all your friends like the PS3 and make fun of the Wii, you probably will too, much like how in high school for me everyone had the same console and everyone who didn't was wrong for some reason. You keep saying things like "wiiwhores," which gives me pause to wonder if you didn't notice that not everyone defending the wii made an invalid argument, in much the same way that most of the people who attack it do. It also supports my theory of your opinion I got from the word amuse. And, as a good segway from that, those attacking the wii, "open mockery/telling them they're wrong" is a poor argument, and one that is generally formed when the attacker can't think of any other reasons to support his own view, much the same way politicians attack each others' credibility when there's nothing wrong with their opponents' policies. Next, you seem to be confusing the meanings of "listen" and "becoming convinced." I listen to the ideas my friends have about studying. They're all different. I don't agree with all of them. But I listened to them. After hearing them, I decided, based on my listening, that I would disagree with most of them and only agree with my friend who got good grades all the time.

Finally, to say that it doesn't "bother you none" is quite an apparent hypocritical and commonly used argumentative shield, that is used to make the poster feel as though he isn't taking the argument as seriously as a fanboy, when he most definitely is, otherwise the comment would be unnecessary. If it doesn't bother you, you wouldn't have posted that in a REPLY to your previous post. Clearly, something bothered you a bit.

And another thing: the first thing I said in my quote of your post was in agreement to something you said - that you shouldn't have to adjust default settings to make a game playable. I agreed with you, and then you called people who defend the wii idiots (or implied it, anyway). What's that say about you? Hmm?

Maybe you should have done more listening. And also, don't do this: <3. It makes it hard to take you seriously if you're trying to make a point.

Sweetheart, the very fact that you went into such a long winded diatribe about your beliefs upon my experiences with the Wii and, /personal/ opinion on the system indicates you care far too much.

And, if I so choose, I shall use a <3 when and where I please.

I have played the Wii, point of fact. I have a lot of experience with the Wii, and the systems competing with it. I don't think it's that great of a system, fin. Calling me a troll and heading into a paragraphs long explanation of why my opinion is wrong and how I clearly believe i'm far above the rest of you just means you have more time on your hands than one is led to believe in your diatribe, and that perchance you have nothing better to do than make personality judgements based off what is essentially, nothing.

Essentially, one can view all your superfluous extrapolations upon what i'm saying as you in turn trolling me and being a hypocrite. The fact remains, you're taking some text on a forum, from a random comment to heart more than I, and perhaps the majority of people who've commented on this thread - however I won't pretend I know how they think and feel, just as you've decided to pretend you know how I do.

Meanwhile, I shall keep to my particular writing style and giggle about how much it seems to matter to you.

Alas, the internet is such a wonderful thing, non?

Damn right I take this more seriously than you.

I never said I didn't. I just said you were pretending you didn't take this seriously. And since you're post is also very long, I seem to have been right about at least that.

You should look up the definition of "troll."

"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion." - wikipedia

Troll posts are generally short. People who say "yea, th wi iz teh suckzorz" or something are trolls. You and I are not those. After viewing your later posts I rescind that comment the view that you are one.

Also, damn right I take this to heart. It hurts when someone says you have a poor opinion. It is human nature to try and convince them otherwise, to some degree. Yahtzee once said that if you like a game and see a poor review, it shouldn't bother you, but I think it should, since no one likes to be told, especially by someone important, that they are incorrect. I am not trying to convince you that the Conduit is a good game. I am trying to see if you refute my other points, rather than attacking my credibility, something I realized I did to you, and am doing now, but only in addition to making what I think are valid points.

Those valid points:
The wii is a better system than Yahtzee gives it credit for.
There are many very good games on the wii that are more than comparable to those on other systems, albeit the other systems may have better third-party games.
Third-party developers have yet to understand how to make a game that utilizes the wii to its full capacity.
People who make large-scale slanderous statements tend to come off as people who are condemning something they don't know enough about, and don't wish to learn more of, i.e., ignorant.
People who lead busy lives don't actually need that many games, although that's not an excuse for bad games being made.

I gave a few possible explanations for such behavior. I have yet to get one from the slanderers. Perhaps you'll be the first.

And as for the free time, my internship ended Friday. I have a large pile of wii games I'd like to get to playing, but I'm still in my NYC apartment and the wii is at home. I realize there was no way for you to know that about my current scenario, but the point is still valid.

But I am impressed by your rebuttal. Well done (not sarcastic, I promise). I usually get more mind-numbing filth.

To enter a matter of semantics, I can still reason you were trolling due to the fact that any stance upon myself is essentially off-topic, for I really don't matter to the issue of the game at hand.

As for the stance of me not caring. You bet I don't. I don't care whether someone agrees with me or not, for I stand strong with my opinions and no one has to like them.

Now, here's where we shed some light on the fact that I don't really think /any/ of the systems are that great, currently. I could go play yet /another/ sequel of a game I have for a previous version of the aformentioned system, or I could save myself some time and money and just play the version of the game I know I love and be done with it.

The wii being a better system than Yahtzee giving it credit for remains a stance of opinion, and a completely refuteable matter depending on who you talk to.

The stance of games being good or not - again, a purely opinion based matter, and not something anyone can quantify as 100% true or false. But - let's put it this way, just because the graphics on the other systems are better, does not mean games are good. Nor does a lack of graphical quality. Else the classics would never be replayed.

Third-Party developers are something you can only speculate on. Unless you're one of them, you can't tell me 100% they don't understand how to utilize the system to it's full capacity.

People who condemn etc etc - We're still in the matter of opinions and speculation. No one can say for sure what my, or anyone else's experiences are like(but of course ourselves) and it all remains electronic text on the internetz.

Annnnd finally, I know many busy people who have a lot of games. Just because you don't, doesn't make that the precedent.

Explanations? Ha, easy: I have my opinion, you have yours. Tres simple, non?

Off I go! Whoosh! HAPPY ENDINGS FOR ALL.

Fine, fine. We're not going to make much more progress. I was going to post something else, but then decided to give it a day and see about it later, and ultimately decided that you've at least gone from "the wii is shit" to "I personally, despite being in the minority, think, for reason I believe are good, that the wii is shit, even though I can see why people would think otherwise based on the types of enjoyment they are able to extract from it, as well as their specific circumstances."

I personally hate the phrase "agree to disagree," but that's just how it goes sometimes.

Oh well. I tried. At least that other guy with the big metroid picture likes the wii.

 

[Autocracy]

Thank god that drama train came to a stop. Pseudo-intellectuals going at each other's throats is just as bad as any "troll".

More to the topic. It still amuses and, at the same time, disappoints me to see everyone up in arms about Sarah Palin. Overdone? Late? He did one or two sight gags and carried on. That isn't even beating a dead horse. If he thrown in more? Sure, I'd be all for "wtf more Sarah Palin jokes" but it wasn't even that significant to the entirety of the review. So relax. Stop trying to dig for ways to insult the guy.

 

[Broady Brio]

I'm wondering the next Wii game he will attack? I really have no idea.
I also hope in September he reviews Tekken 6.

From his Soul Calibur IV, he doesn't get fighting games, but hopefully Tekken 6 will that.

 

[Nanaya Vash]

Another awesome review. Keep it up Yahtzee!

*thumbs up*

 

[144_v1legacy]

Yes. Yes I am.

And I love it.

You do know what it stands for, right--"Too long; didn't read"? I'm not sure what's to love about making posts worthy of that reply...

Admittedly, I had to look it up. But I knew when posting.

You probably won't bother reading this either, but ...

... a long post generally has the implication that it has had thought go into it before its publication, meaning that the writer may appear to have some sort of valid point to make. The post wasn't really for you, anyway. The post's purpose was to win an argument with someone using valid points and material that's hard to argue. The more good points one has, the longer the post becomes, unless it's unnecessarily wordy (like this). But being unnecessarily wordy has its own advantages, as it makes it a hard slog to read, and as such, anyone who wants to argue against it will ultimately have to read the entire thing in order to respond negatively to it, otherwise they risk appearing called out on not listening to the world around them, and even if they say its too long and they didn't read it (I'm not referring to you, though) the same outcome occurs, only exaggerated, as people will look at them and say "those are people who refuse to see what they don't want to."

In short (read this): a lot of words are daunting, and are a pain to argue against with any sort of viable credibility.

Protip: THIS IS THE INTERNET. To use the old maxim, arguing here is like running in the Special Olympics: Even if you win, you're still retarded. And that goes double for matters of no importance whatsoever, such as whose dick is bigger, whose dad can beat up everybody else's, what genres of music are good or bad, and which game platform is better. That said, you must be new. Allow me to welcome you to the high school that never ends.

tl;dr: Long arguments * matters of opinion = massive fail.

Oooh. This must be embarrassing... you see, in the beginning, I was agreeing with you, and saying how I didn't blame you for your stance of "too long, didn't read."

However, the guy I was talking to DID read the whole thing. Which is really all I can ask for. Some people here do, in fact, have intellectually stimulating arguments, though probably not with you, since you apparently aren't well trained in things like irony.

To give an example: you said "even if you win, you're still retarded. And that goes double for matters of no importance whatsoever". Funny, because this conversation we are currently having has no importance. If I had not posted in response, you would have won the argument. Also, your post was not exactly short just then. This is called "irony," and you seem to have fallen victim to it. It's okay. And by the way, I've been here longer than you, and have found that this is in fact a community of many ages. YOU go to the never-ending high school. I just visit.

But don't worry, I'll keep stopping in to say hi, since my guess is that you won't shut up about it until you think you've won (again, irony). It would seem now that you didn't even read the super-short version of my response, where I said I'd be hard to argue against if you weren't prepared for some heavy text. I'm too arrogant to enter a trolling war that consists of fewer than, say, five words per post, give or take.

So, are you going to respond intelligently, thus invoking even more irony, or will you say something to the effect of, though not necessarily, "tl;dr" and appear even less intelligent then before?

The ball's in your court.

 

[Tiakinz]

Hey, all you guys going on about how you can adjust the controls and all that?

Let's put it this way, I shouldn't /have/ to adjust them just so I can look up, down or what have you. It's just good game design to make that the /default/ rather than a customization.

Kthx.

PS. Wii fanwhores: Hush now, no one's really listening to you anyway. <3

It's true, for the most part, that adjusting controls should really be for slight tweaking, and shouldn't be something that make the difference between being able to and not being able to turn or look up. But the sheer number of posts in response to the defending of the wii shows that those defending are, obviously, being listened to. It also leads me to believe that Yahtzee is enough in the minority in his dislike of the wii that it's really more of a bias on his part than an impartial observation. I wonder, though, whether Yahtzee's opinion of the wii would have changed if the conduit was good...

A few things - The Wii *isn't* a good system. It has a few games that are good(oh oh, FOR THE WII), and a few that are faintly amusing at best when you're shitfaced off your knackers and don't know any better anyway.

Second- Most of what I saw in regards to wiiwhores was either open mockery of them, or telling them they're wrong. If they were being /listened/ to, opinion would shift to match their own.

Call it semantics if you will, don't bother me none. <3

I'm surprised you're so quick to be such an obvious troll after only two posts. I wonder if you've been banned for something? Not that you'd admit it if it were true, so you'd be hard pressed to convince me to believe otherwise.

Your steadfast hatred of the Wii implies that you probably don't know enough about it to really have a decent trustworthy opinion, in much the same way I haven't ever played halo, and can therefore say nothing as to its merits or faults. However, what I can say is what statistics say, and statistics say that more people have a wii. What I can also say is that the Wii does not have a very strong lineup of games for someone who plays them quickly and constantly. For someone with a life outside of gaming, say, a person with a job (me in the summer) or a person in college (me otherwise) this generally isn't the case. For us, there are enough genuinely amazing games (not just my own opinion, but the shared opinion of friends, acquaintances, and, more importantly, many critics alike) to last plenty long enough, and they're piling up even, waiting to be played, and I want to play them all. Furthermore, graphics aren't entirely controlled by a system. As was shown by a variety of games on all systems, it's really the developers that have the most control of how the graphics on any given console can be made to look their best. And graphics are really generally not enough of an issue to be bothered by, unless they're particularly noticeably bad. And no, the good wii games are not that.

I will now take a moment to pick apart your statement and find all the things that are wrong with it.

You say that the wii isn't a good system, but I think that given the amount of people saying otherwise and the enjoyment my friends and I get playing it prove that not to be the case. Yes, there are games that are "good for the wii," but there are also games that are "good". It has genuinely good games. Even Yahtzee's admitted that, and on multiple occasions, usually in areas other than Zero Punctuation, but occasionally there too. Your use of the word "amusing" implies that you think you're somehow more intelligent than, and above people who, own a wii, which is a very egotistical and shallow thing to think. It implies that you've viewed from a distance, but never actually attempted to enjoy the wii, because of that formerly mentioned state of mind. Plenty of us play all the consoles, especially in a college environment (I know that's the second time I've brought that up - I'm not trying to shield behind that fact, it's just that it makes a good example and statistic sample), and have therefore had enough experience to formulate a good opinion on all consoles. Naturally, this becomes biased based on your closer friends, so if all your friends like the PS3 and make fun of the Wii, you probably will too, much like how in high school for me everyone had the same console and everyone who didn't was wrong for some reason. You keep saying things like "wiiwhores," which gives me pause to wonder if you didn't notice that not everyone defending the wii made an invalid argument, in much the same way that most of the people who attack it do. It also supports my theory of your opinion I got from the word amuse. And, as a good segway from that, those attacking the wii, "open mockery/telling them they're wrong" is a poor argument, and one that is generally formed when the attacker can't think of any other reasons to support his own view, much the same way politicians attack each others' credibility when there's nothing wrong with their opponents' policies. Next, you seem to be confusing the meanings of "listen" and "becoming convinced." I listen to the ideas my friends have about studying. They're all different. I don't agree with all of them. But I listened to them. After hearing them, I decided, based on my listening, that I would disagree with most of them and only agree with my friend who got good grades all the time.

Finally, to say that it doesn't "bother you none" is quite an apparent hypocritical and commonly used argumentative shield, that is used to make the poster feel as though he isn't taking the argument as seriously as a fanboy, when he most definitely is, otherwise the comment would be unnecessary. If it doesn't bother you, you wouldn't have posted that in a REPLY to your previous post. Clearly, something bothered you a bit.

And another thing: the first thing I said in my quote of your post was in agreement to something you said - that you shouldn't have to adjust default settings to make a game playable. I agreed with you, and then you called people who defend the wii idiots (or implied it, anyway). What's that say about you? Hmm?

Maybe you should have done more listening. And also, don't do this: <3. It makes it hard to take you seriously if you're trying to make a point.

Sweetheart, the very fact that you went into such a long winded diatribe about your beliefs upon my experiences with the Wii and, /personal/ opinion on the system indicates you care far too much.

And, if I so choose, I shall use a <3 when and where I please.

I have played the Wii, point of fact. I have a lot of experience with the Wii, and the systems competing with it. I don't think it's that great of a system, fin. Calling me a troll and heading into a paragraphs long explanation of why my opinion is wrong and how I clearly believe i'm far above the rest of you just means you have more time on your hands than one is led to believe in your diatribe, and that perchance you have nothing better to do than make personality judgements based off what is essentially, nothing.

Essentially, one can view all your superfluous extrapolations upon what i'm saying as you in turn trolling me and being a hypocrite. The fact remains, you're taking some text on a forum, from a random comment to heart more than I, and perhaps the majority of people who've commented on this thread - however I won't pretend I know how they think and feel, just as you've decided to pretend you know how I do.

Meanwhile, I shall keep to my particular writing style and giggle about how much it seems to matter to you.

Alas, the internet is such a wonderful thing, non?

Damn right I take this more seriously than you.

I never said I didn't. I just said you were pretending you didn't take this seriously. And since you're post is also very long, I seem to have been right about at least that.

You should look up the definition of "troll."

"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion." - wikipedia

Troll posts are generally short. People who say "yea, th wi iz teh suckzorz" or something are trolls. You and I are not those. After viewing your later posts I rescind that comment the view that you are one.

Also, damn right I take this to heart. It hurts when someone says you have a poor opinion. It is human nature to try and convince them otherwise, to some degree. Yahtzee once said that if you like a game and see a poor review, it shouldn't bother you, but I think it should, since no one likes to be told, especially by someone important, that they are incorrect. I am not trying to convince you that the Conduit is a good game. I am trying to see if you refute my other points, rather than attacking my credibility, something I realized I did to you, and am doing now, but only in addition to making what I think are valid points.

Those valid points:
The wii is a better system than Yahtzee gives it credit for.
There are many very good games on the wii that are more than comparable to those on other systems, albeit the other systems may have better third-party games.
Third-party developers have yet to understand how to make a game that utilizes the wii to its full capacity.
People who make large-scale slanderous statements tend to come off as people who are condemning something they don't know enough about, and don't wish to learn more of, i.e., ignorant.
People who lead busy lives don't actually need that many games, although that's not an excuse for bad games being made.

I gave a few possible explanations for such behavior. I have yet to get one from the slanderers. Perhaps you'll be the first.

And as for the free time, my internship ended Friday. I have a large pile of wii games I'd like to get to playing, but I'm still in my NYC apartment and the wii is at home. I realize there was no way for you to know that about my current scenario, but the point is still valid.

But I am impressed by your rebuttal. Well done (not sarcastic, I promise). I usually get more mind-numbing filth.

To enter a matter of semantics, I can still reason you were trolling due to the fact that any stance upon myself is essentially off-topic, for I really don't matter to the issue of the game at hand.

As for the stance of me not caring. You bet I don't. I don't care whether someone agrees with me or not, for I stand strong with my opinions and no one has to like them.

Now, here's where we shed some light on the fact that I don't really think /any/ of the systems are that great, currently. I could go play yet /another/ sequel of a game I have for a previous version of the aformentioned system, or I could save myself some time and money and just play the version of the game I know I love and be done with it.

The wii being a better system than Yahtzee giving it credit for remains a stance of opinion, and a completely refuteable matter depending on who you talk to.

The stance of games being good or not - again, a purely opinion based matter, and not something anyone can quantify as 100% true or false. But - let's put it this way, just because the graphics on the other systems are better, does not mean games are good. Nor does a lack of graphical quality. Else the classics would never be replayed.

Third-Party developers are something you can only speculate on. Unless you're one of them, you can't tell me 100% they don't understand how to utilize the system to it's full capacity.

People who condemn etc etc - We're still in the matter of opinions and speculation. No one can say for sure what my, or anyone else's experiences are like(but of course ourselves) and it all remains electronic text on the internetz.

Annnnd finally, I know many busy people who have a lot of games. Just because you don't, doesn't make that the precedent.

Explanations? Ha, easy: I have my opinion, you have yours. Tres simple, non?

Off I go! Whoosh! HAPPY ENDINGS FOR ALL.

Fine, fine. We're not going to make much more progress. I was going to post something else, but then decided to give it a day and see about it later, and ultimately decided that you've at least gone from "the wii is shit" to "I personally, despite being in the minority, think, for reason I believe are good, that the wii is shit, even though I can see why people would think otherwise based on the types of enjoyment they are able to extract from it, as well as their specific circumstances."

I personally hate the phrase "agree to disagree," but that's just how it goes sometimes.

Oh well. I tried. At least that other guy with the big metroid picture likes the wii.

I find it amusing you've placed me in the minority. Far more amusing that there supposedly was progress to make. You weren't going to make a convert out of me no matter how hard you tried.

Besides which, what's the point?

I mean sure, if you worked for Nintendo and were super passionate about your job, I could sorta see it. But man, c'mon, you're some random dude on the escapist forums and i'm some other random person. None of this matters in the end. None of this(at least, it shouldn't) has any real impact on our lives.

Not to mention, it's a complete waste of energy to try and make someone you'll never meet, and never know in any real sense convert to your way of thinking.

I really must suggest you try and stop extrapolating such things as how my stance may or may not have changed - or even try and put the conversion into words. No offense, but you're really not that good at it and end up throwing a lot of nonesense out that ultimately reflects moreso what you'd /like/ the case to be, rather than what it actually is.

If not, oh well.

 

[beema]

Well that was disappointing. I of course did not expect a glowing review from Yahtzee, but this was just pure hate.
I pretty much refuse to play FPS games on consoles regardless, but I was sort of hoping the hype around this one for the Wii actually being good was true. Would be nice to have something decent to play on there.
I usually consider Yahtzee to be objectively disdainful towards everything (is that a contradiction?), which I enjoy, but I get the feeling with this one that he just unconditionally hates all-things Wii and passes judgment on it before even looking at it.

 

[eyedonutkair]

lol wow, seems like yatz is really reaching to not like wii games. that amuses me to no end
If you havn't figured out how to play wii shooters yet, stop crying. It's like saying you suck at halo cuz you're not used to the way an xbox controller feels. only one who can stop them? Master chef has a whole army with him, and he seems to be the only one with the skill to get in and destroy stuff. Why were you the only person in doom? what, humans with guns were all dead? and did you see the 'graphics' in gta? all the people still look blocky and what not, just a little smoother cuz of 'more polys', or so they say. I get my info from listening to ppl who play these games, love these games and have a right to tell it like it is. I see a few posts from people who say the game was great, and these people are the smart ones. Yatz reviews are entertaining, and ppl who get mad cuz someone else trashes the game are foolish. I love the wii, and i love the nitpicking reviews. Yatz is the man. Thanx for making me laugh weekly!

 

[mannaroth]

Nintendo should just stop this madness and release boing stupid games that everyone loves. ( Wii fit)

 

[mightybozz]

Thank god that drama train came to a stop. Pseudo-intellectuals going at each other's throats is just as bad as any "troll".

Wow I literally lol'd at that pseudo-intellectual argument .

Yahtzee makes the perfect point about the Conduit - the developers sacrificed so much in order to try and make a game at home in hugely superior and more powerful company. And failed. It's bland and uninspired in pretty much every way.

The only Wii games I play are those I play with a Gamecube controller (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn and SSMB). The only Wii game I look forward to is Muramasa (maybe spelt wrong) which I will play with a Gamecube controller. The ridiculous re-releasing of old Gamecube titles kind of shows that Nintendo has realised the Wii is best used as a platform for cashing in on gullible idiots and selling older, superior software from the GC generation. I wouldn't have a problem with that if they'd just release a good original game. F-Zero GX and Lylat Wars need proper sequels, which the Nintendo of today couldn't manage.

 

[144_v1legacy]

Hey, all you guys going on about how you can adjust the controls and all that?

Let's put it this way, I shouldn't /have/ to adjust them just so I can look up, down or what have you. It's just good game design to make that the /default/ rather than a customization.

Kthx.

PS. Wii fanwhores: Hush now, no one's really listening to you anyway. <3

It's true, for the most part, that adjusting controls should really be for slight tweaking, and shouldn't be something that make the difference between being able to and not being able to turn or look up. But the sheer number of posts in response to the defending of the wii shows that those defending are, obviously, being listened to. It also leads me to believe that Yahtzee is enough in the minority in his dislike of the wii that it's really more of a bias on his part than an impartial observation. I wonder, though, whether Yahtzee's opinion of the wii would have changed if the conduit was good...

A few things - The Wii *isn't* a good system. It has a few games that are good(oh oh, FOR THE WII), and a few that are faintly amusing at best when you're shitfaced off your knackers and don't know any better anyway.

Second- Most of what I saw in regards to wiiwhores was either open mockery of them, or telling them they're wrong. If they were being /listened/ to, opinion would shift to match their own.

Call it semantics if you will, don't bother me none. <3

I'm surprised you're so quick to be such an obvious troll after only two posts. I wonder if you've been banned for something? Not that you'd admit it if it were true, so you'd be hard pressed to convince me to believe otherwise.

Your steadfast hatred of the Wii implies that you probably don't know enough about it to really have a decent trustworthy opinion, in much the same way I haven't ever played halo, and can therefore say nothing as to its merits or faults. However, what I can say is what statistics say, and statistics say that more people have a wii. What I can also say is that the Wii does not have a very strong lineup of games for someone who plays them quickly and constantly. For someone with a life outside of gaming, say, a person with a job (me in the summer) or a person in college (me otherwise) this generally isn't the case. For us, there are enough genuinely amazing games (not just my own opinion, but the shared opinion of friends, acquaintances, and, more importantly, many critics alike) to last plenty long enough, and they're piling up even, waiting to be played, and I want to play them all. Furthermore, graphics aren't entirely controlled by a system. As was shown by a variety of games on all systems, it's really the developers that have the most control of how the graphics on any given console can be made to look their best. And graphics are really generally not enough of an issue to be bothered by, unless they're particularly noticeably bad. And no, the good wii games are not that.

I will now take a moment to pick apart your statement and find all the things that are wrong with it.

You say that the wii isn't a good system, but I think that given the amount of people saying otherwise and the enjoyment my friends and I get playing it prove that not to be the case. Yes, there are games that are "good for the wii," but there are also games that are "good". It has genuinely good games. Even Yahtzee's admitted that, and on multiple occasions, usually in areas other than Zero Punctuation, but occasionally there too. Your use of the word "amusing" implies that you think you're somehow more intelligent than, and above people who, own a wii, which is a very egotistical and shallow thing to think. It implies that you've viewed from a distance, but never actually attempted to enjoy the wii, because of that formerly mentioned state of mind. Plenty of us play all the consoles, especially in a college environment (I know that's the second time I've brought that up - I'm not trying to shield behind that fact, it's just that it makes a good example and statistic sample), and have therefore had enough experience to formulate a good opinion on all consoles. Naturally, this becomes biased based on your closer friends, so if all your friends like the PS3 and make fun of the Wii, you probably will too, much like how in high school for me everyone had the same console and everyone who didn't was wrong for some reason. You keep saying things like "wiiwhores," which gives me pause to wonder if you didn't notice that not everyone defending the wii made an invalid argument, in much the same way that most of the people who attack it do. It also supports my theory of your opinion I got from the word amuse. And, as a good segway from that, those attacking the wii, "open mockery/telling them they're wrong" is a poor argument, and one that is generally formed when the attacker can't think of any other reasons to support his own view, much the same way politicians attack each others' credibility when there's nothing wrong with their opponents' policies. Next, you seem to be confusing the meanings of "listen" and "becoming convinced." I listen to the ideas my friends have about studying. They're all different. I don't agree with all of them. But I listened to them. After hearing them, I decided, based on my listening, that I would disagree with most of them and only agree with my friend who got good grades all the time.

Finally, to say that it doesn't "bother you none" is quite an apparent hypocritical and commonly used argumentative shield, that is used to make the poster feel as though he isn't taking the argument as seriously as a fanboy, when he most definitely is, otherwise the comment would be unnecessary. If it doesn't bother you, you wouldn't have posted that in a REPLY to your previous post. Clearly, something bothered you a bit.

And another thing: the first thing I said in my quote of your post was in agreement to something you said - that you shouldn't have to adjust default settings to make a game playable. I agreed with you, and then you called people who defend the wii idiots (or implied it, anyway). What's that say about you? Hmm?

Maybe you should have done more listening. And also, don't do this: <3. It makes it hard to take you seriously if you're trying to make a point.

Sweetheart, the very fact that you went into such a long winded diatribe about your beliefs upon my experiences with the Wii and, /personal/ opinion on the system indicates you care far too much.

And, if I so choose, I shall use a <3 when and where I please.

I have played the Wii, point of fact. I have a lot of experience with the Wii, and the systems competing with it. I don't think it's that great of a system, fin. Calling me a troll and heading into a paragraphs long explanation of why my opinion is wrong and how I clearly believe i'm far above the rest of you just means you have more time on your hands than one is led to believe in your diatribe, and that perchance you have nothing better to do than make personality judgements based off what is essentially, nothing.

Essentially, one can view all your superfluous extrapolations upon what i'm saying as you in turn trolling me and being a hypocrite. The fact remains, you're taking some text on a forum, from a random comment to heart more than I, and perhaps the majority of people who've commented on this thread - however I won't pretend I know how they think and feel, just as you've decided to pretend you know how I do.

Meanwhile, I shall keep to my particular writing style and giggle about how much it seems to matter to you.

Alas, the internet is such a wonderful thing, non?

Damn right I take this more seriously than you.

I never said I didn't. I just said you were pretending you didn't take this seriously. And since you're post is also very long, I seem to have been right about at least that.

You should look up the definition of "troll."

"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion." - wikipedia

Troll posts are generally short. People who say "yea, th wi iz teh suckzorz" or something are trolls. You and I are not those. After viewing your later posts I rescind that comment the view that you are one.

Also, damn right I take this to heart. It hurts when someone says you have a poor opinion. It is human nature to try and convince them otherwise, to some degree. Yahtzee once said that if you like a game and see a poor review, it shouldn't bother you, but I think it should, since no one likes to be told, especially by someone important, that they are incorrect. I am not trying to convince you that the Conduit is a good game. I am trying to see if you refute my other points, rather than attacking my credibility, something I realized I did to you, and am doing now, but only in addition to making what I think are valid points.

Those valid points:
The wii is a better system than Yahtzee gives it credit for.
There are many very good games on the wii that are more than comparable to those on other systems, albeit the other systems may have better third-party games.
Third-party developers have yet to understand how to make a game that utilizes the wii to its full capacity.
People who make large-scale slanderous statements tend to come off as people who are condemning something they don't know enough about, and don't wish to learn more of, i.e., ignorant.
People who lead busy lives don't actually need that many games, although that's not an excuse for bad games being made.

I gave a few possible explanations for such behavior. I have yet to get one from the slanderers. Perhaps you'll be the first.

And as for the free time, my internship ended Friday. I have a large pile of wii games I'd like to get to playing, but I'm still in my NYC apartment and the wii is at home. I realize there was no way for you to know that about my current scenario, but the point is still valid.

But I am impressed by your rebuttal. Well done (not sarcastic, I promise). I usually get more mind-numbing filth.

To enter a matter of semantics, I can still reason you were trolling due to the fact that any stance upon myself is essentially off-topic, for I really don't matter to the issue of the game at hand.

As for the stance of me not caring. You bet I don't. I don't care whether someone agrees with me or not, for I stand strong with my opinions and no one has to like them.

Now, here's where we shed some light on the fact that I don't really think /any/ of the systems are that great, currently. I could go play yet /another/ sequel of a game I have for a previous version of the aformentioned system, or I could save myself some time and money and just play the version of the game I know I love and be done with it.

The wii being a better system than Yahtzee giving it credit for remains a stance of opinion, and a completely refuteable matter depending on who you talk to.

The stance of games being good or not - again, a purely opinion based matter, and not something anyone can quantify as 100% true or false. But - let's put it this way, just because the graphics on the other systems are better, does not mean games are good. Nor does a lack of graphical quality. Else the classics would never be replayed.

Third-Party developers are something you can only speculate on. Unless you're one of them, you can't tell me 100% they don't understand how to utilize the system to it's full capacity.

People who condemn etc etc - We're still in the matter of opinions and speculation. No one can say for sure what my, or anyone else's experiences are like(but of course ourselves) and it all remains electronic text on the internetz.

Annnnd finally, I know many busy people who have a lot of games. Just because you don't, doesn't make that the precedent.

Explanations? Ha, easy: I have my opinion, you have yours. Tres simple, non?

Off I go! Whoosh! HAPPY ENDINGS FOR ALL.

Fine, fine. We're not going to make much more progress. I was going to post something else, but then decided to give it a day and see about it later, and ultimately decided that you've at least gone from "the wii is shit" to "I personally, despite being in the minority, think, for reason I believe are good, that the wii is shit, even though I can see why people would think otherwise based on the types of enjoyment they are able to extract from it, as well as their specific circumstances."

I personally hate the phrase "agree to disagree," but that's just how it goes sometimes.

Oh well. I tried. At least that other guy with the big metroid picture likes the wii.

I find it amusing you've placed me in the minority. Far more amusing that there supposedly was progress to make. You weren't going to make a convert out of me no matter how hard you tried.

Besides which, what's the point?

I mean sure, if you worked for Nintendo and were super passionate about your job, I could sorta see it. But man, c'mon, you're some random dude on the escapist forums and i'm some other random person. None of this matters in the end. None of this(at least, it shouldn't) has any real impact on our lives.

Not to mention, it's a complete waste of energy to try and make someone you'll never meet, and never know in any real sense convert to your way of thinking.

I really must suggest you try and stop extrapolating such things as how my stance may or may not have changed - or even try and put the conversion into words. No offense, but you're really not that good at it and end up throwing a lot of nonesense out that ultimately reflects moreso what you'd /like/ the case to be, rather than what it actually is.

If not, oh well.

Again, you're right. I said this. You need to pick up on this. It's more about the process of arguing than the result, and you, as a forum poster, should know this, and do. I do too, but the energy spent here is not wasted. I feel I was able to stand up to a position I didn't agree with and defend it without having to lie to myself. And yes, you are in the minority. There are easily more nintendo fanboys out there, granted, they don't come to forums as often, but sales figures tend to indicate that, as do personal real-life experiences on a national and global scale. I know I haven't been EVERYWHERE, but it always seems to me that more people have a Wii, even of the "hardcore" gamers.

In a different post, I went into greater detail about irony in forums. The gist of it, though, is that, to argue for the meaninglessness of posting in a forum on a forum is very ironic. A lot of people do it, and I, like perhaps the minority of others, see it as very silly. So I won't say it's meaningless, though the results may be, because I am getting something out of this, even if it's just argumentative skill. In your case, it's argumentative skill against someone who has a genuine opinion and has multiple defenses of it.

As far as extrapolation goes, your tone seemed to imply what I had thought, and was a case I had been satisfied with. I am again unsatisfied, as if you still think the wii can only be fun for anyone if they're drunk and/or retarded, than you're also right in that this arguement has at least been meaningless for you.

I however, have learned that you are the kind of person who will never change his opinion no matter how good the evidence to the contrary to his stance may be. I may be more arrogant than I should be, but at least I'll admit it when the opponent has raised an interesting, or even highly valid point.






But this is all tangential. So to finish, pride aside, do you still think that the wii is a genuinely bad system? And before you answer, make sure you've read Yahtzee extra punctuation from the conduit - I don't know if you already have or not.