A point of contraversy (part 1) - Buying a game used is as bad as pirating?

[debossman21]

Because the retailer talks half the money made from selling the game right off the top. As in a $60 nets them $30 (can be even more) profit, right there while the publisher and dev have the about 40-45% of the remainder (if they're lucky with everything like transport, storage) to break even which is a hefty fucking bill most of the time.

On top of this a retailer who hates consumers as much as their suppliers, lets call it "Gaemstop", takes trade ins for $25(ish) but is selling them again for $45(ish). Now they've made solid profit again on that exact same unit. Popular enough game it could get traded in multiple times again and again making solid 50% profit for the store. Now that one unit has made $25 for the dev and publisher while Gaemstop has made $50 (it can get to the $100 region with stuff like CoD) pure profit off a single unit. The disc if undamaged never degrades, never changes, never needs special treatments to preserve, it just continues to be and again and again the retailer profits but the dev profits a single time.

They're selling the item so it's clear it has value but it's not passing any of that profit to the actual people who made it. How is that right?

Ur right, its not right that they can make so money. but its why they exist. its the way the system works,. dont like it, move to a communist country like Russia or Cuba where capitalism is not welcome.

This is silly. I look at buying a second hand game like buying second hand books.
When you buy a second hand book you don't expect the author or publisher to come and rip out a few chapters, and this is pretty much what id is doing.

Like several people have said, publishers and developers need to stop bitching about something that is widespread, socially acceptable, bringing gaming to an audience who might otherwise be unable to afford it and which is spreading their brand and growing their potential customer base.

Then you're an idiot. No used books are not the same, no it's not a good analogy, no you are wrong.

Also socially acceptable things can be fucking retarded.

used books are EXACTLY the same. the book was used/owned by some one else. the game was used/owned by someone else. u expect it to be clean and shiny? NO! u expect it to be readable. u expect it to work. u get what u payed for, not a cent more.

why buy a used game if you can download it for free? You aren't supporting the developers/publishers with your act of kindness.

I'm keeping my local game shop open, I'm helping my nations economy, and I'm not breaking the law.

Theres 3 reasons just off the top of my head to buy a used game over downloading one.

Not to mention that I AM helping the Developers and Publishers, for reasons stated in previous posts.

Not if you buy used.

really? how does ur local gamestop, or EB games for rest of world, or just local game store making money? wishful thinking and pixie dust? they make money from sales. u buy, they make money, they stay open. how does the gov't make money. taxes, federal and state taxes. they put tax on the game, UNBIASED TOWARD NEW OR USED GAMES, and they tax the game store. already debunked two of ur flimsy-assed arguments. now how is buying a game used against the law? if u say it (YES U DID) back it up then, where does it say thats illegal?

 

[manythings]

Then you're an idiot. No used books are not the same, no it's not a good analogy, no you are wrong.

Also socially acceptable things can be fucking retarded.

Ok, how are games inherently different from any other good upon the face of the earth??

And as such deserving of special treatment from the rest of everything else, to the point where their specialness trumps consumers rights and law in most western nations?

Because like any given good on the planet it's not just something that magically exists and can be traded with a specific zero sum origin.

Books require one author, one editor, one publisher, one press and a single publishing house. Add to that the resources of energy, supplies and skilled personnel. Add to that storage, processing, trasport and making sure it all gets to either the wholesaler or individual stockists.

A game in the triple AAA class? Dozens of people. A writing staff, editors, programmers, equipment, business offices, programmers offices, free lancers when your own staff isn't enough, an art department. That's day one without any other considerations. Add to that th sound department, the foley guys AND the voice talent casters as well as the cast, the equipment (Bought or rented) and space needed to use them, the programmers needed to make all that stuff work like it's supposed to. Add to that QA, the testers, the bug fixing team, the people who have to take the info from the bug team to the programmers and figure out how those problems need to be fixed, all their equipment and the space to keep and use it. Add to that the in game scripters, the texture guys, the guys who build the levels, the guys who are turning the art into the graphics and building the world, their equipment, licencing tech and software or even building your own from scratch. Now all that has to cook for 18 months, at least, paying for all those people, all that equipment, energy, maintenance, property, upgrading maybe even potentially having to rip the whole thing asunder and start again. And all this before you've made a penny.

A guy with a tomato plant and a green house is not equal to tomato farmer.

 

[Cogwheel]

Buy it or don't touch it. No one is entitled to entertainment for free. If you want free entertainment, go take a walk in the woods.

After reading your post, I have a sudden urge to pirate a forest, and have no idea how to go about doing so. Any suggestions?

 

[manythings]

snip

Perhaps rather than insulting me you should provide examples of just how used books are different to used games.

If I buy a used book I expect its condition to probably be worse than that of a new copy as long as it is readable. I expect the same from a used game.

I expect all the content to be there. I expect the same from a used game.

You didn't actually provide any reasons as to why my opinion was wrong. Next time maybe you should try not being an asshole and write a response.

Because like any given good on the planet it's not just something that magically exists and can be traded with a specific zero sum origin.

Books require one author, one editor, one publisher, one press and a single publishing house. Add to that the resources of energy, supplies and skilled personnel. Add to that storage, processing, trasport and making sure it all gets to either the wholesaler or individual stockists.

A game in the triple AAA class? Dozens of people. A writing staff, editors, programmers, equipment, business offices, programmers offices, free lancers when your own staff isn't enough, an art department. That's day one without any other considerations. Add to that th sound department, the foley guys AND the voice talent casters as well as the cast, the equipment (Bought or rented) and space needed to use them, the programmers needed to make all that stuff work like it's supposed to. Add to that QA, the testers, the bug fixing team, the people who have to take the info from the bug team to the programmers and figure out how those problems need to be fixed, all their equipment and the space to keep and use it. Add to that the in game scripters, the texture guys, the guys who build the levels, the guys who are turning the art into the graphics and building the world, their equipment, licencing tech and software or even building your own from scratch. Now all that has to cook for 18 months, at least, paying for all those people, all that equipment, energy, maintenance, property, upgrading maybe even potentially having to rip the whole thing asunder and start again. And all this before you've made a penny.

A guy with a tomato plant and a green house is not equal to tomato farmer.

 

[inFAMOUSCowZ]

The devs already got their money from a copy that was sold now they won't make any more. If you support the devs this much then you can't let friends borrow games and you're not allowed to rent games. Why? How is the dev getting money from them, they aren't. Thats why I say we should honestly boycott any game that does project $10 to an extreme. Cutting actually content is a terrible idea. I can promise you I'll be playing Rge this fall, but I'll get it used. If they think they can bully us and say this is what is happening and you'll like it they are wrong. EA tried pulling stupid shit with pre orders on BF 3 we threatened a boycott they backed down. Id thinks they can cut content? No tats wrong on their part.

 

[manythings]

Because the retailer talks half the money made from selling the game right off the top. As in a $60 nets them $30 (can be even more) profit, right there while the publisher and dev have the about 40-45% of the remainder (if they're lucky with everything like transport, storage) to break even which is a hefty fucking bill most of the time.

On top of this a retailer who hates consumers as much as their suppliers, lets call it "Gaemstop", takes trade ins for $25(ish) but is selling them again for $45(ish). Now they've made solid profit again on that exact same unit. Popular enough game it could get traded in multiple times again and again making solid 50% profit for the store. Now that one unit has made $25 for the dev and publisher while Gaemstop has made $50 (it can get to the $100 region with stuff like CoD) pure profit off a single unit. The disc if undamaged never degrades, never changes, never needs special treatments to preserve, it just continues to be and again and again the retailer profits but the dev profits a single time.

They're selling the item so it's clear it has value but it's not passing any of that profit to the actual people who made it. How is that right?

Ur right, its not right that they can make so money. but its why they exist. its the way the system works,. dont like it, move to a communist country like Russia or Cuba where capitalism is not welcome.

I forgot the part in business studies where not paying people for their work was an integral component of capitalism. Also learn about the world as it is today as opposed to the 1950's, thanks.

This is silly. I look at buying a second hand game like buying second hand books.
When you buy a second hand book you don't expect the author or publisher to come and rip out a few chapters, and this is pretty much what id is doing.

Like several people have said, publishers and developers need to stop bitching about something that is widespread, socially acceptable, bringing gaming to an audience who might otherwise be unable to afford it and which is spreading their brand and growing their potential customer base.

Then you're an idiot. No used books are not the same, no it's not a good analogy, no you are wrong.

Also socially acceptable things can be fucking retarded.

used books are EXACTLY the same. the book was used/owned by some one else. the game was used/owned by someone else. u expect it to be clean and shiny? NO! u expect it to be readable. u expect it to work. u get what u payed for, not a cent more.

Yet there aren't any billion dollar global companies that specialise in used books. Potentially because the turnover is that miniscule that it's not even something to note.

why buy a used game if you can download it for free? You aren't supporting the developers/publishers with your act of kindness.

I'm keeping my local game shop open, I'm helping my nations economy, and I'm not breaking the law.

Theres 3 reasons just off the top of my head to buy a used game over downloading one.

Not to mention that I AM helping the Developers and Publishers, for reasons stated in previous posts.

Not if you buy used.

really? how does ur local gamestop, or EB games for rest of world, or just local game store making money? wishful thinking and pixie dust? they make money from sales. u buy, they make money, they stay open. how does the gov't make money. taxes, federal and state taxes. they put tax on the game, UNBIASED TOWARD NEW OR USED GAMES, and they tax the game store. already debunked two of ur flimsy-assed arguments. now how is buying a game used against the law? if u say it (YES U DID) back it up then, where does it say thats illegal?

You said you support developers and publishers. If you aren't giving them money for their products then no, you are not supporting them.

 

[sibrenfetter]

Then you're an idiot. No used books are not the same, no it's not a good analogy, no you are wrong.

Also socially acceptable things can be fucking retarded.

Ok, how are games inherently different from any other good upon the face of the earth??

And as such deserving of special treatment from the rest of everything else, to the point where their specialness trumps consumers rights and law in most western nations?

Because like any given good on the planet it's not just something that magically exists and can be traded with a specific zero sum origin.

Books require one author, one editor, one publisher, one press and a single publishing house. Add to that the resources of energy, supplies and skilled personnel. Add to that storage, processing, trasport and making sure it all gets to either the wholesaler or individual stockists.

A game in the triple AAA class? Dozens of people. A writing staff, editors, programmers, equipment, business offices, programmers offices, free lancers when your own staff isn't enough, an art department. That's day one without any other considerations. Add to that th sound department, the foley guys AND the voice talent casters as well as the cast, the equipment (Bought or rented) and space needed to use them, the programmers needed to make all that stuff work like it's supposed to. Add to that QA, the testers, the bug fixing team, the people who have to take the info from the bug team to the programmers and figure out how those problems need to be fixed, all their equipment and the space to keep and use it. Add to that the in game scripters, the texture guys, the guys who build the levels, the guys who are turning the art into the graphics and building the world, their equipment, licencing tech and software or even building your own from scratch. Now all that has to cook for 18 months, at least, paying for all those people, all that equipment, energy, maintenance, property, upgrading maybe even potentially having to rip the whole thing asunder and start again. And all this before you've made a penny.

A guy with a tomato plant and a green house is not equal to tomato farmer.

So after reading your at least a bit more elaborate post, the conclusion is that it all depends on the amount of people who worked on a project? A writer in your view is not important because not enough people are involved? I'm sorry but while I can see where you are coming from, it just does not make any sense. What if a small developer makes a big title (Darwinia for instance), according to your logic those people would not have the right to secondhand sales as they are too small? Also, your description then covers films perfectly, I take it you are just as strongly against reselling DVDs?

 

[Wicky_42]

Help me understand this:

The publisher of the game has sold X copies to Retailer Y for price Z. Retailer Y sells the games, and gets a certain amount of those traded back because they didn't like it or whatever. After that, they prop it up in the used games section for resale at a lesser price.

Retailer Y will get a little more money out of the purchase because they don't have to throw out a game. But the amount of X copies sold, and with that the Z Price, isn't changed is it? It's not that with every single purchase a little of that money has to be put into an envelope and sent to the publisher, right? So how does selling used games hurt the publisher like piracy does?

This is not me trolling or whatever, I'm just curious if my train of logic works or not.

The issue is, V people buy used copies at reduced price W, of which the publisher sees nothing. This group of used copy buyers then have a copy, and so will never join the group buying one of the original X copies, and as such multiple people can play the game with only one purchase being seen by the publisher, and so their total number sold and subsequent earnings are reduced.

Arguably, this is an identical situation to software piracy, only instead of being a free exchange of information there's a third party sitting in the middle making huge profits from mediating the exchange. Project $10 and its ilk are an attempt by the publisher to get their own cut from the profitable re-selling of used games, and is especially merited when there's an online component to the game that requires server costs to maintain.

Of course, the situation is complex, and not being able to resell your property seems anti-capitalist, but tell that to PC gamers - we haven't been able to resell EVER (well, decade at least). At least the option still exists atm for consoles!

 

[Strazdas]

buying used game is not bad. developer already sodl a copy and has it being actively played. if i dont want to play the game i allow somoen else to play it for small conpensation for not being able to paly it in the future.

The issue is, V people buy used copies at reduced price W, of which the publisher sees nothing. This group of used copy buyers then have a copy, and so will never join the group buying one of the original X copies, and as such multiple people can play the game with only one purchase being seen by the publisher, and so their total number sold and subsequent earnings are reduced.

Only one player can play the game at any given time with 1 copy of the game, thus their costumers are not reduced. it merely shows that their game is NOT GOOD ENOUGH for many peopel to want to play it at the same time. well either that or they are bloody mad with pricing *cough* star craft 2 *cough*

 

[sibrenfetter]

Of course, the situation is complex, and not being able to resell your property seems anti-capitalist, but tell that to PC gamers - we haven't been able to resell EVER (well, decade at least). At least the option still exists atm for consoles!

No disrespect but what are you talking about?! Why could I not sell my bought pc games on to someone else?

 

[manythings]

Then you're an idiot. No used books are not the same, no it's not a good analogy, no you are wrong.

Also socially acceptable things can be fucking retarded.

Ok, how are games inherently different from any other good upon the face of the earth??

And as such deserving of special treatment from the rest of everything else, to the point where their specialness trumps consumers rights and law in most western nations?

Because like any given good on the planet it's not just something that magically exists and can be traded with a specific zero sum origin.

Books require one author, one editor, one publisher, one press and a single publishing house. Add to that the resources of energy, supplies and skilled personnel. Add to that storage, processing, trasport and making sure it all gets to either the wholesaler or individual stockists.

A game in the triple AAA class? Dozens of people. A writing staff, editors, programmers, equipment, business offices, programmers offices, free lancers when your own staff isn't enough, an art department. That's day one without any other considerations. Add to that th sound department, the foley guys AND the voice talent casters as well as the cast, the equipment (Bought or rented) and space needed to use them, the programmers needed to make all that stuff work like it's supposed to. Add to that QA, the testers, the bug fixing team, the people who have to take the info from the bug team to the programmers and figure out how those problems need to be fixed, all their equipment and the space to keep and use it. Add to that the in game scripters, the texture guys, the guys who build the levels, the guys who are turning the art into the graphics and building the world, their equipment, licencing tech and software or even building your own from scratch. Now all that has to cook for 18 months, at least, paying for all those people, all that equipment, energy, maintenance, property, upgrading maybe even potentially having to rip the whole thing asunder and start again. And all this before you've made a penny.

A guy with a tomato plant and a green house is not equal to tomato farmer.

So after reading your at least a bit more elaborate post, the conclusion is that it all depends on the amount of people who worked on a project? A writer in your view is not important because not enough people are involved? I'm sorry but while I can see where you are coming from, it just does not make any sense. What if a small developer makes a big title (Darwinia for instance), according to your logic those people would not have the right to secondhand sales as they are too small? Also, your description then covers films perfectly, I take it you are just as strongly against reselling DVDs?

I'm strongly against people profitting heavily at the expense of people who are actually doing the work. I'm not saying a writer should be ignored, what I'm saying is that in book terms it takes far less to actual make a book and be profitable. Literally how many times have you bought a book, read it in a single day and sold it back to the store? Gamestop does that a thousand times everyday and re-triples their profits at the expense of devs. That's just flat out wrong.

 

[F4LL3N]

The day I want to play a game, but don't want to buy it brand new, and I can't because of some stupid second-hand mechanic placed on by the developer because they think their somehow entitled to more, is the day I will happily pirated said game without the slightlest bit of guilt or remorse.

Once a game is sold, it is no longer the publishers property. Just like once a shop sells a game, it is no longer their property. It's mine, and I'll do what I want with MY property.

If you disagree, answer this: why buy a used game if you can download it for free? You aren't supporting the developers/publishers with your act of kindness. If its not worth buying new, its not worth buying at all. Save your money and do something else with it instead. And if you liked the game you downloaded? Show your support by buying the developer's next new game. By doing that, you are getting two games worth of content for the price of one new game, yes?

I actually like that logic. If developers/publishers think it's so wrong to buy used, then pirate it. If they hate game shops that much, than either way works out the same for them. If game shops are that horrible, why don't we help the publishers out?

Everypony, let's get back at those evil game shops by pirating games!!! We'll teach those greedy bastards a lesson. I'm going to support developers and publishers by pirating games!!

Back OT: Buying a used game is not as bad as pirating, it's not bad at all. One's perfectly legal/moral and the other isn't. It's simply greed on the developers/publishers side.

I think it may somewhat be illegal to remove content from used games. Selling faulty goods and extortion. They're forcing you to pay money to use something that you've already brought and which otherwise doesn't cost an additional fee. It's like buying a train ticket from point A to point C, but getting kicked off the train at point B because the train driver feels he's not getting paid enough dollars per hour.

 

[Denamic]

Pirates buy games then share them for free.
Resellers buy people's games for a fraction of their value than sells them for triple the price they paid.
Neither results in any direct revenue for the developer.

 

[Xanthious]

So after reading your at least a bit more elaborate post, the conclusion is that it all depends on the amount of people who worked on a project? A writer in your view is not important because not enough people are involved? I'm sorry but while I can see where you are coming from, it just does not make any sense. What if a small developer makes a big title (Darwinia for instance), according to your logic those people would not have the right to secondhand sales as they are too small? Also, your description then covers films perfectly, I take it you are just as strongly against reselling DVDs?

I think what people miss here on The Escapist is that there are likely a massive number of posters here that either currently work in, or are going to school to work in, the game or software industry. These people are going to defend the hand signing that paycheck tooth and nail. They are going to tow that company line regardless of how inane it may be. Either that or they have drunk the gaming industry kool aid and have somehow been brainwashed into thinking that games deserve some kind of special treatment that no other good in the two thousand plus year history of goods being bought and sold has ever enjoyed. Either way arguing with them will do you no more good than arguing with a crazy hobo on the street screaming about how our alien overlords are coming. Your best bet in either case is just to smile, nod, and hope to god they don't touch you.

 

[Dogstile]

snip

Yes. It is. But only for one reason:

When buying a new car, you purchase the vehicle in a prime condition. When buying the car used, you get the same vehicle, and if the car has been on the road for 5 to 10 years already, its parts have been subjected to some wear and tear.

The same can be applied to any other used purchase. Clothes, shoes, furniture, you name it.

I wouldn't agree with this. In fact, the majority of my stuff is used. My guitar is used. My chair is used. My computer is used.

The thing is, i've been using all these things for a few years and i've never had to replace a damn thing. Wear and tear is different from "yeah, you're buying this car used so when you drive home, try not to brake, we got rid of those."

 

[Wicky_42]

Of course, the situation is complex, and not being able to resell your property seems anti-capitalist, but tell that to PC gamers - we haven't been able to resell EVER (well, decade at least). At least the option still exists atm for consoles!

No disrespect but what are you talking about?! Why could I not sell my bought pc games on to someone else?

Have you ever tried returning your PC game to a shop, trade it in for store credit or anything? Go on, give it a go. Sure, your friend might give you some money for one, but that's not the topic being discussed.

 

[ascorbius]

Completely agree with what cainx10a said in the link.

What is the similarity between pirates and game shops? They both help advertise the game to a larger market and allow the game to reach more players.

How many types of pirates are there? Two. One who cracks it and distributes it for free, the other who cracks it and sell it for a profit. Both pirates help increase the game's popularity.

What is the difference between pirates and game shops? One of them gains a legal profit doing the same thing.

As a player:
1) If all you want to do is to play the game, download the free pirated version.
2) If you want to get it for cheap, download the free pirated version.
3) If you want to support the developers/publishers, but it new.

If you disagree, answer this: why buy a used game if you can download it for free? You aren't supporting the developers/publishers with your act of kindness. If its not worth buying new, its not worth buying at all. Save your money and do something else with it instead. And if you liked the game you downloaded? Show your support by buying the developer's next new game. By doing that, you are getting two games worth of content for the price of one new game, yes?

This is fundamentally wrong. The reason why is: with piracy, there is no giving up of physical copy from someone else.

Imaging the situation:

Person A buys game full price.. plays it for a while, then a new game comes out so he sells his game and uses the money to fund the newer game. Later, Person B then buys the first game second hand as they couldn't afford the game at retail. Person B may enjoy the game or may trade it in later to help fund another second hand game.

Ownership of the original game is transferred. The $60 has already been paid for that game, the fact that several people played it one after the other is not a problem. Person A can only play the game again by acquiring a new copy.

In the case of a pirated copy, there is no limit to the amount of people who can play the game from a single $60 concurrently (and that's assuming that the pirated copy was purchased in the first place). There is no need to purchase more copies and the game developer suffers as legitimate potential purchases are being lost.

I am the proud owner of several Second Hand games, games which as attested to earlier have Sequels which I purchased at full price on release day. I have no problem scouring my local 2nd hand game shop for gems. What I don't agree with is large stores offering 2nd hand and full price versions of the same game on the same shelves when the game has only recently been released. 2nd hand games should be sold when the full price game has had a chance to sell.

There is nothing wrong with the trade of any items you own; games, books, CDs, Movies.. Trade in second hand goods is morally fine. Money changed hands for the original product, only one person is using it.

 

[Wicky_42]

If you disagree, answer this: why buy a used game if you can download it for free? You aren't supporting the developers/publishers with your act of kindness. If its not worth buying new, its not worth buying at all. Save your money and do something else with it instead. And if you liked the game you downloaded? Show your support by buying the developer's next new game. By doing that, you are getting two games worth of content for the price of one new game, yes?

I actually like that logic. If developers/publishers think it's so wrong to buy used, then pirate it. If they hate game shops that much, than either way works out the same for them. If game shops are that horrible, why don't we help the publishers out?

Everypony, let's get back at those evil game shops by pirating games!!! We'll teach those greedy bastards a lesson. I'm going to support developers and publishers by pirating games!!

The irony, I love it XD

The day I want to play a game, but don't want to buy it brand new, and I can't because of some stupid second-hand mechanic placed on by the developer because they think their somehow entitled to more, is the day I will happily pirated said game without the slightlest bit of guilt or remorse.

Once a game is sold, it is no longer the publishers property. Just like once a shop sells a game, it is no longer their property. It's mine, and I'll do what I want with MY property.

The way that publishers have gotten around this, and have, in fact, completely removed the PC games second hand market, is by classifying your use of the software on the disk a the use of a license. You might own the bit of plastic and metal, but they retain ownership of the software, and the rights to fuck around with it as much as they want, including removing your access to as much of it as they want.

Of course, IMO that's so much bullshit, but what with the data being so easy to reverse engineer I can maybe see why they do it, protecting their code and all that legal stuff. The fact that it removes the consumers' rights to the product that they intended to buy has not really gotten much public exposure or protest; people just don't seem to care until all of a sudden some game or program they use gets locked and they find out the only way to get it back is to buy it again.

It would be nice to own the things you bought, wouldn't it? It works for everything else, but apparently software's 'special' like that.