So in other words, you just want all games to look and feel the same? Well, I guess the discussion is over, there can be nothing more said here. We can all go home, our work here is done.gyrobot said:
All JRPG needs to be liked again is to be gritty.
- Thread starter gyrobot_v1legacy
- Start date
Recommended Videos
I agree. I likes me some gritty stories. But I also like variety. I don't get why people need so much sameness to enjoy games. A bright colourful world? KILL IT WITH FIRE!erttheking said:
No.
They need either more efficient storytelling and pacing, better or more fast-paced combat systems, quicker mechanics introductions, more non-linear worlds, or less completely scripted moments that make you feel like you're just endlessly trudging from one place to the other in a manner set up by the developer so you'll be guaranteed to be at the perfect level to face the next boss when you get there.
Not saying it's an all or nothing with those, those are just the big complaints I have about most of them.
They need either more efficient storytelling and pacing, better or more fast-paced combat systems, quicker mechanics introductions, more non-linear worlds, or less completely scripted moments that make you feel like you're just endlessly trudging from one place to the other in a manner set up by the developer so you'll be guaranteed to be at the perfect level to face the next boss when you get there.
Not saying it's an all or nothing with those, those are just the big complaints I have about most of them.
I like to think that JRPG's are good as long as they at least have good story and characters, at least that's my idea of a good JRPG.
I know games like Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI, Rasphony: A Musical Adventure, and Lunar: Silver Star Story stand among some of the most successful JRPG's becuase they focus well on story and character development.
I don't see how making them 'gritty' would make games like those better, the light tones that JRPG's are known for are the bread and butter of those games.
That would be if Bioware decided to have a Dragon Age game that doesn't have fantasy elements deconstructed, or if Mass Effect didn't have aliens, or if the Legend of Zelda games had none of the tools is known for and gave you literally only the sword and shield to work with.
Need I go on?
I know games like Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI, Rasphony: A Musical Adventure, and Lunar: Silver Star Story stand among some of the most successful JRPG's becuase they focus well on story and character development.
I don't see how making them 'gritty' would make games like those better, the light tones that JRPG's are known for are the bread and butter of those games.
That would be if Bioware decided to have a Dragon Age game that doesn't have fantasy elements deconstructed, or if Mass Effect didn't have aliens, or if the Legend of Zelda games had none of the tools is known for and gave you literally only the sword and shield to work with.
Need I go on?
JRPG's make me cringe these days. If they weren't made strictly for teens or 12 year old's they might be tolerable. I can't stomach the way they act and the way they talk any more, maybe 15+ years ago. WRPG's typically have them beat in almost every circumstance, minus one or two.
I think Disgaea is the ONLY one that I can possibly tolerate any more, don't ask me why.
I think Disgaea is the ONLY one that I can possibly tolerate any more, don't ask me why.
Yeah... no. The one and only reason I like JRPG's still is because they usually aren't gritty or macabre. In fact, games really need to lay off the gritty realism because gaming is starting to feel more like a job I hate and less like a fun activity. It's the reason I still buy Nintendo products, they supply light-hearted, fun and visually appealing games amidst the lodes of amorphous, black bulk that other developers seem to be putting out.
So... many... acronyms...
Anyways, I disagree. There's lots of space for the Fables out there, so there should be plenty of room for the light-hearted fantasy JRPGs. The most common complaint I hear about modern-day Final Fantasy isn't "it's too bright", it's "it's too soap-opera like". Maybe if we dropped the most common anime tropes and got better translation and script, they'd be perfectly enjoyable in their current aesthetic.
Anyways, I disagree. There's lots of space for the Fables out there, so there should be plenty of room for the light-hearted fantasy JRPGs. The most common complaint I hear about modern-day Final Fantasy isn't "it's too bright", it's "it's too soap-opera like". Maybe if we dropped the most common anime tropes and got better translation and script, they'd be perfectly enjoyable in their current aesthetic.
I want morally complex characters, to make people question themselves in life. To show how sometimes we are not steadfast and well-adjusted and altruistic but can be petty, self destructive and self loathing. Western gaming is not afraid to give extremely fatal flaws to the heroes in general and make them pay dearly for it.klaynexas3 said:
If a hero must angst, they will do it through rage and decadence rather than crying about it
Answered your own question there. Game of Thrones is popular, therefore a lot of recent fantasy will copy it to cash in on the popular fad.gyrobot said:
Why do you think MMOs started running heavy with the cartoonish graphics after WoW went big? Why do you think Gears of War led to a surge in third-person "gritty" scifi shooters?
Emulating a popular fad does not equal quality. What "JRPGs" need to do to be "liked" is not suck, just like any other game.
No God no please no! They need to make another game in Final Fantasy 4 to 6's vein or Chrono Trigger. Those games were engaging even though completely fantastic they still had some interesting issues in their plot and weren't all about spiky hair and weirdass weapons with hybrid battle systems and shitloads of CGI and I could go on and on. I've become extremely cynical regarding jrpgs since Final Fantasy ten's era and I don't think I'll play 'em again, not to mention the eternal grinding involved in mostly all of them.
Betrayal and intrigue was a thing before that goddamn series was written and is often not the central theme of crpg. Every Baldur's Gate game ever made, Dragon Age and Elder Scrolls don't hold that much similarity with ice and fire.
Just because we could stand for *certain* JRPGs to be less than a long-winded fairy fart of superficial style-checks and overwrought studies in Emo 101... I'm not sure that washing out the colours and sprinkling in more violence and swear words would do much to redeem them. Even if one was to elevate the importance of this or that faction wanting to overthrow another in a sneaky way.
Basically, there is an uncanny valley for the too-cool and too-emotional where people who aren't just *all about* that kind of thing (more power to those who are) give up in shades of disgust.
The sex and the violence is a draw card up to a point, but I think the thing that seals the deal for most people is the verisimilitude, the degree to which you suspend disbelief and just groove on what's happening.
Basically, there is an uncanny valley for the too-cool and too-emotional where people who aren't just *all about* that kind of thing (more power to those who are) give up in shades of disgust.
The sex and the violence is a draw card up to a point, but I think the thing that seals the deal for most people is the verisimilitude, the degree to which you suspend disbelief and just groove on what's happening.
JRPGs do not need to change in order for new people to become fans. People will either play JRPGs and like them or not, just like any other type of game. I mean, in Japan western RPGs don't take off as well as they do in the west, so from their perspective it's western RPGs that need to change. What you're doing here is saying that apples need to be more like oranges so that more people can like apples, which is just silly. People will try apples and either like them or not. An apple/orange crossover is welcome, but we certainly don't need to change all apples to satisfy the orange fans, especially when it's just as valid of an argument to say that oranges should change to be more palatable for apple fans.gyrobot said:
You also seem to have this impression that JRPGs are on their way out. Why? Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, Catherine, Professor Layton, Pokemon...there are plenty of Japanese games and franchises being released and continued to clambering western audiences, and it hardly needs to be said they go over even better in Japan. Just because your interest in a certain type of game is declining doesn't mean it's on the way out.
Also, why do you consider ASOIAF to be the epitome of fantasy? It's a very specific type of fantasy that is executed effectively, but in many ways barely scratches the surface of what fantasy is capable of. The Hobbit is even more revered than ASOIAF and it has next to no political intrigue. It's an adventure. That's the core of fantasy, really--adventure that is not bounded by the rules of reality as we know it. ASOIAF takes one approach to that idea, but there are many other just as valid ideas that should neither be ignored nor belittled.
And one more thing. You say that the trend in entertainment is to retell classic fantasy stories in an "adult" way, but I would argue it's more specific than that. They are being retold in a sexual way. The way they are being retold is highly sensuous and sexual, which isn't "adult" so much as sexualized. The Lord of the Rings and the Tales of Shannara are "adult" fiction, but not necessarily sexual. That's not to say sexuality isn't a part of being an adult, but it's certainly not the only part, and there are certainly ways it can be handled that are not mature. Also, the very fact that we've got so many escapist stories coming out these days that don't address reality as we know it (Twilight, Beautiful Creatures, Mortal Instruments, The Hobbit/LotR, all of the Superhero movies, all of the zombie movies) says to me that escapism is on the rise. Fantasy and sci fi are more accepted than ever in popular media. The Lord of the Rings ran away with 17 Oscars and 30 nominations, I think that says the entertainment world is pretty open to the idea of escapism and fantasy.
I don't think grittiness would make JRPG's popular.
The problem with JRPGs is that unlike Western RPGs, they have not changed. With the new technology, they have stuck to old formulas and rigid, archaic systems. The majority of current JRPGs are garbage. It's the same old item/screen/inventory management that we have seen for the past decade. While it is fun and interesting, its not new. There's nothing revolutionary about it. Sprites have been replaced with (usually) poorly animated 3D models. Turn based combat is usually stale, or if its interesting, the sheer amount of grinding required will make it stale. Gameplay is often sacrificed for the sake of the story.
I think the worst part though, are the tropes which run through nearly every JRPG. Voice acting is generally cringeworthy. The main character is a young, hopeful 14-22 year old or a whiny 14-22 year old. Entire party can be described as: love interest, younger brother/sister type person, big hulking guy who's actually nice, hyper positive person, mysterious person, and cool emo swordsman. One of your enemies will eventually become your ally. Any sort of church or organization or government is evil.
And undoubtedly, the big bad boss will spout nonsense about the meaning of existence and how life is all a lie, which justifies him killing everything. Furthermore, the more existential crisis's you can make the main character have, the better. Stories, the original strength of the JRPG, has become a stale bag of cliches.
Look at all of your favorite JRPGs. It was the strength of their story that made them great. It was interesting combat, or unique customization beyond "biggest number here". It was characters you could connect with, not just hollow shells stuffed with stereotypes. It was villains where you could see the decay into madness.
Don't get me wrong. I've no doubt that most, if not all, of these games are wrapped up in nostalgic bullcrap. Replaying Star Ocean 2 showed me that (still a decent game, but not nearly what I remembered it to be, and not really worth recommending). But what good, NEW JRPGs are out now?
Only one that comes to mind is the Persona series , which brings some much needed freshness into a genre which has refused to grow. (and even that's nowhere near perfect, with its repetitive dungeon and enemy types, and the one-trick bosses). Also Ni no Kuni, from what I've heard. But what others?
The problem with JRPGs is that unlike Western RPGs, they have not changed. With the new technology, they have stuck to old formulas and rigid, archaic systems. The majority of current JRPGs are garbage. It's the same old item/screen/inventory management that we have seen for the past decade. While it is fun and interesting, its not new. There's nothing revolutionary about it. Sprites have been replaced with (usually) poorly animated 3D models. Turn based combat is usually stale, or if its interesting, the sheer amount of grinding required will make it stale. Gameplay is often sacrificed for the sake of the story.
I think the worst part though, are the tropes which run through nearly every JRPG. Voice acting is generally cringeworthy. The main character is a young, hopeful 14-22 year old or a whiny 14-22 year old. Entire party can be described as: love interest, younger brother/sister type person, big hulking guy who's actually nice, hyper positive person, mysterious person, and cool emo swordsman. One of your enemies will eventually become your ally. Any sort of church or organization or government is evil.
And undoubtedly, the big bad boss will spout nonsense about the meaning of existence and how life is all a lie, which justifies him killing everything. Furthermore, the more existential crisis's you can make the main character have, the better. Stories, the original strength of the JRPG, has become a stale bag of cliches.
Look at all of your favorite JRPGs. It was the strength of their story that made them great. It was interesting combat, or unique customization beyond "biggest number here". It was characters you could connect with, not just hollow shells stuffed with stereotypes. It was villains where you could see the decay into madness.
Don't get me wrong. I've no doubt that most, if not all, of these games are wrapped up in nostalgic bullcrap. Replaying Star Ocean 2 showed me that (still a decent game, but not nearly what I remembered it to be, and not really worth recommending). But what good, NEW JRPGs are out now?
Only one that comes to mind is the Persona series , which brings some much needed freshness into a genre which has refused to grow. (and even that's nowhere near perfect, with its repetitive dungeon and enemy types, and the one-trick bosses). Also Ni no Kuni, from what I've heard. But what others?
ASOIAF was hellbent on subverting everything you love about fantasy genre, nobleheroic faction? Gets destroyed by forces much more pragmatic/evil then they are, chosen one? Dies trying to do the chosen hero act. ASOIAF is a unapologetic depressing tale and RPGs have been wise to follow in the direction of it's low fantasy approach to things.
The problem with JRPGs is right now they are dismissed as a "joke", that they are not up to date with the times, I suggest the simplest course is to deal with the main meat of the problem: The setting and content which have a nice profit/difficulty ratio.
And I agree with you on the last part, JRPG also failed on that. WRPG on average promises softcore sex and the occasional brothel tossed in or at least give you the ability to. JRPG have not been utilizing an artist pool known for drawing porn to their fullest. A couple of softcore scenes will placate the restless crowds I say and bring them up to par with WRPG in the world of sexual content if we are aiming to compete in that.
The problem with JRPGs is right now they are dismissed as a "joke", that they are not up to date with the times, I suggest the simplest course is to deal with the main meat of the problem: The setting and content which have a nice profit/difficulty ratio.
And I agree with you on the last part, JRPG also failed on that. WRPG on average promises softcore sex and the occasional brothel tossed in or at least give you the ability to. JRPG have not been utilizing an artist pool known for drawing porn to their fullest. A couple of softcore scenes will placate the restless crowds I say and bring them up to par with WRPG in the world of sexual content if we are aiming to compete in that.
There you go, highlighted where you shot down your own point.gyrobot said:
1) Please stop bringing up Ice & Fire. It's not the first series to attempt "darker & edgier", it's not the best one either. At most it's the most popular, and I'd argue that's mostly because HBO picked it up for a TV show... And that probably wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the success of Rome a few years back. WRPGs dabbled in mature themes years before GRRM started his series. The second Ultima trilogy, anyone?
And Grimdark is not inherently mature. It's the equivalent of a 12-year old cursing every other sentence. To be fair, that does stem from the culture where "adult" means less "for adults" and more "not for children", so the popular expectation is there. But I guarantee you - once adult responsibilities start catching up with you, you're not gonna look for cynicism in your escapism. Then again, the popularity of "darker & edgier" might be the symptom of the culture of irresponsibility that we have in the West right now.
For dark and gritty to be effective, you need something to offset it. Martin fails here, because ASOIAF is all grim, all the time. It's just as predictable as the high fantasy novels it aims to subvert. The Witcher books do it better, because they engage in political satire, occasional low-brow humour and unsubtle cultural references. Watership Down, which is often shorthand for "dark" here on the Internet, throws in lighthearted - occasionally even absurdist - comedy every now and then.
Hell, Discworld engages in some heavy themes and tends to address them well (control through propaganda, historical racism, idealism in a pragmatic world) - and it still manages to be 80% comedy. Which brings me to my next point...
2) "Current attitude towards fantasy" and "moving with the times". What is this mystical "current attitude"? Because what I see is that Tolkien remains extremely popular, Pratchett is sleeping on a pile of money, Patrick Rothfuss enjoys a massive fan following, Trudi Canavan is unwaveringly popular and GRRM is becoming the new Goodkind. Variety, good sir.
And "moving with the times". There's just so much wrong with that statement... Entertainment is not there to follow the leader. It's there to entertain. Works which enjoy the largest success are usually the ones which tried something different (or which copied another work which tried something different, but with a bigger marketing budget). "Moving with the times" and emulating the Current Big Thing is how we got to a place where every AAA game has to be a cover-based shooter. It's the mindset that gave us Troy.
3) I posit to you that Western games need to be less gritty, like here:
I would say that ASOIAF is more or less "okay". But Martin (the author, for those who aren't aware) is hilariously arrogant in writing it. We all know his goal was to bring more realism to the fantasy genre, as well as a more balanced perspective. But his idea of "balance" was completely in line with the Dark Age of comic books in the 90s, and his ideas of medieval history write like someone with just information to haphazardly criticise it, but not enough to understand it more broadly. Don't get me wrong -- Martin knows some facts about the Middle Ages. But he doesn't understand those facts. He cannot correlate them. And at the same time as he judges, he gets things wrong, from the social to the economic to the martial.gyrobot said:
Here's the measure I use to see whether someone has half a clue or not about the Middle Ages. Do their plate-armoured knights use shields, as in ASOIAF? Then they've missed a whole lot of recorded history and martial knowledge, because shields gave way to the more versatile, easily-wielded, less tiring, quicker and more hard-hitting two-handed weapons of the late Middle Ages. In a series that deals so much with fuedal warfare, this is an extremely basic point. It's one thing for BioWare to get this wrong (they wouldn't know martial validity if it smacked them with a tire iron), but quite another for someone like Martin to do the same, who sneers at the rest of the fantasy genre from a distance.
Furthermore, Martin doesn't provide an emotively balanced tale. It's very dark. Alright, so is life -- sometimes. Sometimes it's not, and I'd say that life is above all else diverse. Martin doesn't portray that emotive diversity, though, so we only get a cross section of potential emotions. Some characters have every reason to be absolutely miserable, of course, but Martin can't seem to write emotional stability at the best of times.
If his historical bungles and weighted emotive writing weren't enough, the books become a structural mess after the third installment. The first three books are actually a decent arc, and I'd say the third book itself is one of the better fantasy novels out there right now. It's an awful shame Martin threw all of that away for the fourth book, in which nothing much happens until the very end. We're left with half the cast we expected stewing in mundanity rather than anything of note actually happening. A poor effort after the excellence of the third book and it put me off the series, and I daresay there's no lack of others who share my experience.
Books like The Red Knight or games like The Witcher (particularly the second one) do much the same thing as Martin with greater emotional diversity, better structure and a superior grasp of the history they're basing their works off. Mind you, ASOIAF isn't overtly bad, but it's received a lot of recognition and praise for what it actually provides. I certainly don't want games like ASOIAF because I imagine they'd be just as narrow-minded, arrogant and inaccurate as said book series. We certainly don't need more pretentiousness or disregard for history in WRPGs, since our current selection seems to have that covered nicely.
As for JRPGs? They have the excuse of appropriation, and many take on fairy tale qualities that disavow the need or advantage of too much narrative complexity or respect towards historical sources. JRPGs aren't at all afraid to display a wide range of emotions, either. Not that I actively dislike WRPGs -- The Witcher 2 is, to my mind, one of the best RPGs ever, from any region of the world under any design principles.
I suspect ASOIAF is popular because it is the longest running book series to fill a particular void in fiction. When you're hungry, think of bread.