All JRPG needs to be liked again is to be gritty.

[klaynexas3]

I want morally complex characters, to make people question themselves in life. To show how sometimes we are not steadfast and well-adjusted and altruistic but can be petty, self destructive and self loathing. Western gaming is not afraid to give extremely fatal flaws to the heroes in general and make them pay dearly for it.

If a hero must angst, they will do it through rage and decadence rather than crying about it

Okay, this part I can agree with. But having "grit" doesn't always equal complex characters. In fact, having nothing but these dark and edgy themes really takes away from whole characters. If a character can't feel anything but anger and rage and resentment, then the character loses quite a bit of depth. With your example of Raynor, he isn't always in some drunken rage wanting to destroy something, he can also be light hearted, laugh a little, have some fun. He isn't about to cut himself on his edginess. Having light heartedness in a game helps show the gravity of the darker situations, which is why you spend the first hour or so of Kingdom Hearts(nearly any of the games if you come to think of it) faffing about with friends for a bit before shit hits the fan. The game is also a great example of a character arcs of those that find themselves morally conflicted as to what to do. Riku and Terra both seek power to protect their friends, but find themselves swallowed by it, Ansem, who was once wise and powerful, finds himself seeking only revenge, even at the cost of others, instead of repairing the damage that he himself caused. Some JRPGs lack it, but others hit it spot on, and those are the better ones. JRPGs just need balance, instead of all of one or the other, which they sometimes have troubles with.

 

[Olas]

I'm sure I'm about the 20th persona to mention this but it sounds like OP is saying the problem with JRPGs is that they're JRPGs, and that the solution is to turn them into toned down western rpgs. Since I don't care for JRPGs at all I can't say I disagree with you, but I imagine most fans of the genre would.

 

[FFP2]

Those games have their place. I don't think JRPGs are that place, usually. (Dark Souls does gritty and dark like a champion, but that doesn't mean every JRPG has to be that way.)

I wouldn't really call DS a "JRPG" per se, it's more like an ARPG to me. I get your point though. It's probably the only "gritty" game that I can stand playing.

 

[Cheesepower5]

This guy understands. Although I do enjoy stories that have a subtle darkness to them. But this is typically the reason I love JRPGs.

Persona 4 would totally be the greatest game EVER if the enemies were terrorists, every second word was a swear and if it was all dipped in lovely, gritty grey and brown!

Honestly, I think JRPGs are the only genre not to have a really brown and "gritty" game.

OP: Look at a pic of The Gapra Whitewood from FF13 and compare that to a "gritty" game... for example GTA4. I know which game I'd rather play.

While I'm not a large fan of FF13, I'd rather play that, than play GTA4. Largely because I dislike GTA as a whole. :x

Any other FF (or just San Andreas in the GTA slot, too wigger for me) and I'd have to agree. Okay... Any other FF except for Dirge of Cerberus.

Republican Space Rangers >>>>> GTAVC > GTAIV >>> FFXIII >> GTASA >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dirge of Cerberus

 

[Shoggoth2588]

Plot and tone are one thing but what I'd really like to see in JRPGs is all to do with the combat system. I'd either want to see more JRPGs take on a combat system like that of Kingdom Hearts or for JRPGs to go back to the turn-based system of Dragon Quest and, Final Fantasy titles from 10 and back. Other than my gripes in the battle system (that's the core gameplay after all, isn't it?) I don't really have any gripes with JRPGs. I like the stories in the newer JRPGs I've played like Last Story and, Xenoblade Chronicles and I really don't think a layer of grit would have helped them out very much. Hell, Final Fantasy IX is my all time favorite JRPG and it's absolutely squeaky clean and, grit free. Ya know what? Make more JRPGs like Final Fantasy IX.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

The problems people tend to have with the genre do not lie solely in narrative trope or presentation style; indeed, those are points usually cited as favorable. I'd argue that the game mechanics, which by and large rely on strict archetypes, rock-paper-scissors dynamics, and heavy amounts of grind in order to advance is the problem.

 

[Valnyan]

A lot of JRPG are mature. Pretty much any Final Fantasy or Breath of Fire are mature, the Phantasy Star serie too. What makes maturity is the story telling, deep characters, even "one dimentional" characters can be written in a mature
manner.

Game of Thrones, on the other hand, I watched the first season and I wouldn't call it mature. Maturity isn't defined by sex, gore, deaths, cussing and nude wiminz, that is the definition of "maturity" a ten year old would have. Because "maturity" means "the stuffs for adult" and that's porno, death and violence.
This is not mature, it is gritty.

If you want gritty JRPGs there are a few Demon Souls/Dark Souls are pretty gritty and really mature but can be hard to grasp because they don't give any exposition about the plot, there are pieces of information everywhere in the dialogue, the scenery, the character design, items and it's to the player to assemble the puzzle. (And that's coming from someone who hate Demon/Dark Souls' gameplay)
If you want a (less) gritty and (less but still) mature JRPG there is also Dragon's Dogma that is much less reticent to explain its plot.

As for WRPG, if you want a mature WRPG there is Dragon Age : Origin which happens to be gritty too. There are probably some others but I don't have an example of non gritty but mature WRPG for now.

Just to make my point clear, one last example that is not an RPG, but that most peoples will agree is not mature but gritty : the new DmC.
Because everyone adding "fuck you" every other line is instant maturity for any story.

 

[Lilani]

Yatsuno is pretty much what I was describing as being part of the era of JRPGs that had everything the western audience wants. Guy was the scriptwriter of Tactics and Vagrant.

All it needs nowadays is to have the same content maturity level of the newer WRPGs, aka stop at nothing for a CERO Z.

You still haven't answered this question, though: Why must all JRPGs and WRPGs be the same? Why must they have the same maturity level, and be based on the same trends in fantasy? To me that seems like the fastest way to make the genre dull in both the west and east. Nobody is saying mature elements shouldn't be explored, all we're saying is you keep saying all fantasy needs to be like this which is just ridiculous. There's enough fantasy to go around for everyone, and just because you don't like a certain kind doesn't mean it doesn't deserve to exist. There are plenty of people in this thread who have said they don't like ASOIAF, but none of them have said it or fantasy like it should no longer continue to be made.

 

[DragonStorm247]

Honestly, we don't really need more grit in games right now. Yes, I'd like to see maturity, and yes I'd like to see some darker games. These are not the same things as grit though.

 

[Epona]

At this late stage the people who're still holding a candle for the Japanese video game industry remind me strongly of children who're convinced that they can get their divorced parents back together again. Western games were never popular in Japan. The tastes of mainstream gamers in the West have moved from the period that they overlapped with what was being released by the Japanese industry.

Just accept that it's over already, then move on.

So, which Japanese gamemakers are posting losses like EA, or going bankrupt like THQ? Because I can't think of any, and it's really making me scratch my head every time people talk about gloom and doom for JRPGs. Everyone keeps saying they're on the decline, but I can't see it. All I see is more people than ever before telling me I need to play games like Persona and Professor Layton and Catherine.

EDIT: It seems in the early morning haze of my mind I may have misread this. Now I see you're saying that "it's over" in regards to western and Japanese games having a lot in common. Never mind then, my bad~

Of your three examples, only one was a console title. JRPG's are alive and well on handhelds but have been pretty dead on consoles this gen. Are you really going to act like the consoles are seeing SNES/PS1/PS2 levels of JRPG's?

Anyway, to the OP. I have no idea what your 6 letter acronym stands for but I can say that JRPG's don't need more grit. Less anime would be nice but we don't need brown and fuckin gray.

 

[Lilani]

At this late stage the people who're still holding a candle for the Japanese video game industry remind me strongly of children who're convinced that they can get their divorced parents back together again. Western games were never popular in Japan. The tastes of mainstream gamers in the West have moved from the period that they overlapped with what was being released by the Japanese industry.

Just accept that it's over already, then move on.

So, which Japanese gamemakers are posting losses like EA, or going bankrupt like THQ? Because I can't think of any, and it's really making me scratch my head every time people talk about gloom and doom for JRPGs. Everyone keeps saying they're on the decline, but I can't see it. All I see is more people than ever before telling me I need to play games like Persona and Professor Layton and Catherine.

EDIT: It seems in the early morning haze of my mind I may have misread this. Now I see you're saying that "it's over" in regards to western and Japanese games having a lot in common. Never mind then, my bad~

Of your three examples, only one was a console title. JRPG's are alive and well on handhelds but have been pretty dead on consoles this gen. Are you really going to act like the consoles are seeing SNES/PS1/PS2 levels of JRPG's?

Anyway, to the OP. I have no idea what your 6 letter acronym stands for but I can say that JRPG's don't need more grit. Less anime would be nice but we don't need brown and fuckin gray.

Honestly I haven't had a modern console in a while, but looking at the top 10 games from Japan last year [http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=507139] it seems yes, the top three are all handheld games. Which looking at that reminds me that first of all the 360 hasn't taken off much at all in Japan, so really and truly the only consoles they really have in spades over there are the Nintendo DS/3DS, Wii, and the PS3.

And given their top games are on the 3DS, it stands to reason that even though they're on handhelds enough people there own them that they can easily beat console sales. Which means it also stands to reason that their games would be made more interchangeably between console and handheld, since they are both on equal footing there.

So first of all what's going on here is a difference in marketing. Yes more successful Japanese games are on handhelds, but that neither means they are doomed to be unsuccessful nor are they of a lesser quality than console games (unless you're one of those kinds of people). Because, as has always been the case, JRPGs are made to first and foremost appeal to a Japanese audience. And if the Japanese gamers are highly receptive to handhelds, then that's good for them. All of the games on that top 10 list are from Japanese gamemakers, namely Nintendo, Square Enix, Bandai, and Capcom. So it seems along with western consoles, the Japanese audience isn't receptive to western games, either.

My point in saying all of this is that JRPGs are by no means dead, nor even dying. More are being made on handhelds, but that's more caused by a shift in the interests of Japanese gamers than a failure of the industry. Square, Capcom and the rest all remain very successful and profitable companies, regardless of what consoles their games are coming out on. The only "mistake" they've made (if you can call it that) is catering to their most immediate and receptive audience, which at this point in time is no longer moving parallel to the western games market in terms of trends and interests. Handheld consoles aren't as big here, so from our point of view JRPGs are failing as well, but really it's just a difference in trends.

So, in conclusion: A trend in JRPGs that doesn't quite jive with a western audience ≠ JRPGs "failing" as a whole, or on their way out.

And I actually had to Google it to learn ASOIAF stands for A Song of Ice and Fire, better known as the Game of Thrones series (though if I recall correctly, ASOIAF is usually used to specifically refer to the book series).

 

[Epona]

At this late stage the people who're still holding a candle for the Japanese video game industry remind me strongly of children who're convinced that they can get their divorced parents back together again. Western games were never popular in Japan. The tastes of mainstream gamers in the West have moved from the period that they overlapped with what was being released by the Japanese industry.

Just accept that it's over already, then move on.

So, which Japanese gamemakers are posting losses like EA, or going bankrupt like THQ? Because I can't think of any, and it's really making me scratch my head every time people talk about gloom and doom for JRPGs. Everyone keeps saying they're on the decline, but I can't see it. All I see is more people than ever before telling me I need to play games like Persona and Professor Layton and Catherine.

EDIT: It seems in the early morning haze of my mind I may have misread this. Now I see you're saying that "it's over" in regards to western and Japanese games having a lot in common. Never mind then, my bad~

Of your three examples, only one was a console title. JRPG's are alive and well on handhelds but have been pretty dead on consoles this gen. Are you really going to act like the consoles are seeing SNES/PS1/PS2 levels of JRPG's?

Anyway, to the OP. I have no idea what your 6 letter acronym stands for but I can say that JRPG's don't need more grit. Less anime would be nice but we don't need brown and fuckin gray.

Honestly I haven't had a modern console in a while, but looking at the top 10 games from Japan last year [http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=507139] it seems yes, the top three are all handheld games. Which looking at that reminds me that first of all the 360 hasn't taken off much at all in Japan, so really and truly the only consoles they really have in spades over there are the Nintendo DS/3DS, Wii, and the PS3.

And given their top games are on the 3DS, it stands to reason that even though they're on handhelds enough people there own them that they can easily beat console sales. Which means it also stands to reason that their games would be made more interchangeably between console and handheld, since they are both on equal footing there.

So first of all what's going on here is a difference in marketing. Yes more successful Japanese games are on handhelds, but that neither means they are doomed to be unsuccessful nor are they of a lesser quality than console games (unless you're one of those kinds of people). Because, as has always been the case, JRPGs are made to first and foremost appeal to a Japanese audience. And if the Japanese gamers are highly receptive to handhelds, then that's good for them. All of the games on that top 10 list are from Japanese gamemakers, namely Nintendo, Square Enix, Bandai, and Capcom. So it seems along with western consoles, the Japanese audience isn't receptive to western games, either.

My point in saying all of this is that JRPGs are by no means dead, nor even dying. More are being made on handhelds, but that's more caused by a shift in the interests of Japanese gamers than a failure of the industry. Square, Capcom and the rest all remain very successful and profitable companies, regardless of what consoles their games are coming out on. The only "mistake" they've made (if you can call it that) is catering to their most immediate and receptive audience, which at this point in time is no longer moving parallel to the western games market in terms of trends and interests. Handheld consoles aren't as big here, so from our point of view JRPGs are failing as well, but really it's just a difference in trends.

So, in conclusion: A trend in JRPGs that doesn't quite jive with a western audience ≠ JRPGs "failing" as a whole, or on their way out.

And I actually had to Google it to learn ASOIAF stands for A Song of Ice and Fire, better known as the Game of Thrones series (though if I recall correctly, ASOIAF is usually used to specifically refer to the book series).

People want console JRPG's, well I do anyway. I have played my fair share of JRPG's on the PSP and DS and they just aren't the same. Thanks for the acronym explanation, I wish people would stop abusing acronyms likes this.

 

[Lilani]

People want console JRPG's, well I do anyway. I have played my fair share of JRPG's on the PSP and DS and they just aren't the same. Thanks for the acronym explanation, I wish people would stop abusing acronyms likes this.

Yeah, if I had a console I think I'd like to play some newer JRPGs as well, but unfortunately we're sort of at the mercy of the trends in Japan, lol. And yeah, a lot of people here have the problem of assuming that EVERYBODY uses acronyms when talking about stuff, so that must mean EVERYBODY knows what EVERY long acronym stands for. Most recognize the name "Game of Thrones" more than they recognize "A Song of Fire and Ice," so I feel like the OP's use and lack of explanation of that long acronym speaks even more to their myopic view of fantasy.

 

[pure.Wasted]

At this late stage the people who're still holding a candle for the Japanese video game industry remind me strongly of children who're convinced that they can get their divorced parents back together again. Western games were never popular in Japan. The tastes of mainstream gamers in the West have moved from the period that they overlapped with what was being released by the Japanese industry.

Just accept that it's over already, then move on.

So, which Japanese gamemakers are posting losses like EA, or going bankrupt like THQ? Because I can't think of any, and it's really making me scratch my head every time people talk about gloom and doom for JRPGs. Everyone keeps saying they're on the decline, but I can't see it. All I see is more people than ever before telling me I need to play games like Persona and Professor Layton and Catherine.

EDIT: It seems in the early morning haze of my mind I may have misread this. Now I see you're saying that "it's over" in regards to western and Japanese games having a lot in common. Never mind then, my bad~

Of your three examples, only one was a console title. JRPG's are alive and well on handhelds but have been pretty dead on consoles this gen. Are you really going to act like the consoles are seeing SNES/PS1/PS2 levels of JRPG's?

Anyway, to the OP. I have no idea what your 6 letter acronym stands for but I can say that JRPG's don't need more grit. Less anime would be nice but we don't need brown and fuckin gray.

Honestly I haven't had a modern console in a while, but looking at the top 10 games from Japan last year [http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=507139] it seems yes, the top three are all handheld games. Which looking at that reminds me that first of all the 360 hasn't taken off much at all in Japan, so really and truly the only consoles they really have in spades over there are the Nintendo DS/3DS, Wii, and the PS3.

And given their top games are on the 3DS, it stands to reason that even though they're on handhelds enough people there own them that they can easily beat console sales. Which means it also stands to reason that their games would be made more interchangeably between console and handheld, since they are both on equal footing there.

So first of all what's going on here is a difference in marketing. Yes more successful Japanese games are on handhelds, but that neither means they are doomed to be unsuccessful nor are they of a lesser quality than console games (unless you're one of those kinds of people). Because, as has always been the case, JRPGs are made to first and foremost appeal to a Japanese audience. And if the Japanese gamers are highly receptive to handhelds, then that's good for them. All of the games on that top 10 list are from Japanese gamemakers, namely Nintendo, Square Enix, Bandai, and Capcom. So it seems along with western consoles, the Japanese audience isn't receptive to western games, either.

My point in saying all of this is that JRPGs are by no means dead, nor even dying. More are being made on handhelds, but that's more caused by a shift in the interests of Japanese gamers than a failure of the industry. Square, Capcom and the rest all remain very successful and profitable companies, regardless of what consoles their games are coming out on. The only "mistake" they've made (if you can call it that) is catering to their most immediate and receptive audience, which at this point in time is no longer moving parallel to the western games market in terms of trends and interests. Handheld consoles aren't as big here, so from our point of view JRPGs are failing as well, but really it's just a difference in trends.

So, in conclusion: A trend in JRPGs that doesn't quite jive with a western audience ≠ JRPGs "failing" as a whole, or on their way out.

And I actually had to Google it to learn ASOIAF stands for A Song of Ice and Fire, better known as the Game of Thrones series (though if I recall correctly, ASOIAF is usually used to specifically refer to the book series).

People want console JRPG's, well I do anyway. I have played my fair share of JRPG's on the PSP and DS and they just aren't the same. Thanks for the acronym explanation, I wish people would stop abusing acronyms likes this.

Yes, but Lilani is saying that Japanese audiences don't want that, and who are Japanese gamemakers going to cater to first and foremost?

Japanese gamers are moving very much into handheld, and consoles are regarded as a family thing - the Wii and WiiU are exactly what the Japanese want out of a console right now. So how does that translate to us? Well, most of the time it doesn't. Unfortunate as that is for a lot of Western gamers who grew up with JRPGs and hoped that JRPGs would grow up with us, it might take a while for that to happen.

 

[McFazzer]

A bit off topic but, Innegativeion? is your avatar of Naoto Shirogane in casual girl clothes?

OT: I have little to no expertise in the fields of Global Marketing of games, or knowledge of Game of Thrones TV series (or the book series). That said RPG's are my favorite genre of games. Slap a J or W if you want, I don't care, I only care if I have fun. Why do JRPG's need to change? To be more popular in the West? Why would a Japanese developer risk alienating their core demographic by trying to cater to an audience which might not buy it anyway? Sure I would have liked some things in some games to change, but then I would be nitpicking. Why does there need to be more political intrigue? Not everyone finds such plots enthralling, not everyone wants to be embroiled in such machinations. The closest I want to getting involved in politics in my game Disgaea. I don't doubt that this is appealing to some, but if there is such a Japanese audience I'm sure such a game will be made or announced.

If JRPG's HAVE to change, the changes won't be forced by any single forum, thread, post or online debate, such a change will only come if a Developer decides to give it a try. If you want to be that Dev, go for it. If it is a smashing success? More power to you, go sleep on that bed on money you made.

 

[Innegativeion]

A bit off topic but, Innegativeion? is your avatar of Naoto Shirogane in casual girl clothes?

Yes. Suffice to say that the Persona 4: Golden epilogue has new character sprites for the whole main cast. Naoto was apparently *really* good at binding.

On a more pertinent note, I've just recently finished TWEWY for the second time, and Xenoblade for the first... I'm now quite certain (even more so than my last two posts- go figure)the OP's opinions are greatly misinformed or under-informed.

 

[Terramax]

*snip*

There are a couple of problems with this.

1.) The Japanese game industry as a whole is declining. JRPGs is one of their biggest gaming exports. Do the math.

2.) What the OP doesn't mention, that should be addressed, is that many people whom dislike JRPGs used to like them. Put me in this category.

I loved RPGs during the Saturn and PSX era (and beforehand, having played a few on the Megadrive and MegaCD). Problem is, current JRPGs, for the majority, don't offer anything new from what I've seen before. Why spend a full retail price on a game with the same cliched stories, characters, locations, battle systems, music, hammy dialog, and visuals that I played over 10 years prior (albeit, look a little nicer (or, sometimes, look worse))?

JRPGs, like a lot of genres in these days, need to remain innovative in order to stay relevant. And they're just not doing so. Say what you like about these action games and FPS which everyone is saying is the bane of gaming, but at least some of them are trying something. Whether it be The Line or MW2 for its story, Mirror's Edge for it's unique premise and visual style, Portal for it's gameplay. And yet, the only JRPG in recent years to have made waves is Persona 4, for reasons which no-one wants to explain to me why when I ask. I'm tempted to buy this game myself, but considering the horrid JRPGs I've played in recent years (FF13, Xenogears), I'm not investing again without some very good reassurance.

I understand that some people out there are happy to buy the exact same game with different packaging, over and over, hence the waves of loyal Pokemon fans, and all that jazz. But there are great many of us being alienated from the market due to sheer laziness. And with the next gen close on the horizon, with video games becoming more expensive to created, JRPG devs had better think fast, or we might see some of the greatest falling, fast.

In a nutshell; I don't agree with them being gritty, but they need to do something.

On a more pertinent note, I've just recently finished...Xenoblade for the first... I'm now quite certain (even more so than my last two posts- go figure)the OP's opinions are greatly misinformed or under-informed.

Surely playing that game would justify his argument more than anything?

 

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

And you know the sad part about Persona 4 is it plays painfully into the high school antics that is the current trend in anime and manga at the moment.

And it is very popular by both sides of the pond.

 

[McFazzer]

And you know the sad part about Persona 4 is it plays painfully into the high school antics that is the current trend in anime and manga at the moment.

And it is very popular by both sides of the pond.

I prefer to think of Persona 4 as the happiest game about serial murders ever! The high school antics didn't bother me so much, mainly because that is what I see the Persona series as (I know it's not all that, inner demons, growing up etc). Atlus has a whole library of not high school antic SMT games, and they are great (although they still have teens, Persona is the only one that springs to mind as having school life), but Persona was my first introduction into the SMT games and they have gripped me ever since.