Am I a bad gamer?

[Vault101]

[snip.

did I acutally say I prefered cutscnes OVER gameplay?...no..if that were the case I would like yakuza which I do not (because it doesnt want to be a game..it wants to be a movie..there is a difference)

when you can put the two together and they are BOTH good then youve got somthing awsome

its all on however the game wants to present the story...weather that be through cutscene or scripting..I dont have a preference..whatever works..take the first assasins creed..while they arent "cutscnes" per say they are more "heavyly guided" scripted events which were effective in making you feel that you werent just viewing the action..but a aprt of it...Its a shame they took a more cutscene heavy apraoch in later installments....

anyway, all Im saying is cutscenes are a tool...no tool is bad on its own..its just how its used

[quote/] This is what I'm talking about. A good story (you said you like story, right) doesn't have to zoom in on expressions or actions to get the story across. If a game has to do that many times maybe the story isn't all that good. Hmm? [/quote]

if they filmed citizen kane with a shaky cam would that make the story worse? NO...it would just make it poorly implemented/directed

[quote/]Whatever makes you happy. But it rubs me the wrong way; like sitting on a cake. Or like that Bioware writer who wanted to skip all the gameplayz! But if watching videos in games make you happy then by all means, enjoy yourself [/quote]

I think your overeacting there

take dragon age origins..its an old school RPG and i absolutly sucked at it...but I perservered..why?

because the story/charachters were good enough for me to do so..if given the option I wouldnt have skipped gameplay...as playing was more or less fun and I was motivated to play BECAUSE of those bits where I would talk to other charachters..and where the story would movie along..I had it on easy so I wouldnt be tearing my hair out

mabye some peopel WOULD like to skip gameplay...it may rub you the wrong way...but the Idea that somone ignores the story completly also rubs me the wrong way...

but each to their own

 

[BreakfastMan]

This is what I'm talking about. A good story (you said you like story, right) doesn't have to zoom in on expressions or actions to get the story across.

Wow. This line makes no sense. The old "highlight someone's action or expression to convey importance of said action or expression" (of which zooming in is one way it can be used) is pretty much used by every good story-teller ever, from Kubrick, to Moore, to Dickens. I seriously don't understand how you can say that with a straight face. :/

 

[Flailing Escapist]

This is what I'm talking about. A good story (you said you like story, right) doesn't have to zoom in on expressions or actions to get the story across.

Wow. This line makes no sense. The old "highlight someone's action or expression to convey importance of said action or expression" (of which zooming in is one way it can be used) is pretty much used by every good story-teller ever, from Kubrick, to Moore, to Dickens. I seriously don't understand how you can say that with a straight face. :/

What part of HAVE to did you miss? It CAN. But a good story doesn't HAVE to rely on "highlighting" someone's action or expression to convey the importance of that action ot expression. If a game HAS to break gameplay to highlight a certain expression or action maybe they're doing it wrong. Not that a game CAN'T highlight an expression or action but if they have too - again, maybe they're doing it wrong.

And Kubrick, Moore and Dickens didn't make games they made stories (or movies).

 

[BreakfastMan]

This is what I'm talking about. A good story (you said you like story, right) doesn't have to zoom in on expressions or actions to get the story across.

Wow. This line makes no sense. The old "highlight someone's action or expression to convey importance of said action or expression" (of which zooming in is one way it can be used) is pretty much used by every good story-teller ever, from Kubrick, to Moore, to Dickens. I seriously don't understand how you can say that with a straight face. :/

What part of HAVE to did you miss? It CAN. But a good story doesn't HAVE to rely on "highlighting" someone's action or expression to convey the importance of that action ot expression. If a game HAS to break gameplay to highlight a certain expression or action maybe they're doing it wrong. Not that a game CAN'T highlight an expression or action but if they have too - again, maybe they're doing it wrong.

In order to tell a good story, one has to convey the importance of a character's actions or expressions. The best way to do that is to highlight them, so the person experiencing the story can understand the importance of that action/expression. Would The Shining have been as powerful without Kubrick using close-ups of Jack Nicholson's facial expressions to properly convey his decent into madness? No. The story could still be conveyed, but it would not nearly be as powerful or well-executed.

And Kubrick, Moore and Dickens didn't make games they made stories (or movies).

You do know that many people, including myself, think that most games are stories, right?

 

[Flailing Escapist]

In order to tell a good story, one has to convey the importance of a character's actions or expressions. The best way to do that is to highlight them, so the person experiencing the story can understand the importance of that action/expression. Would The Shining have been as powerful without Kubrick using close-ups of Jack Nicholson's facial expressions to properly convey his decent into madness? No. The story could still be conveyed, but it would not nearly be as powerful or well-executed.

And Kubrick, Moore and Dickens didn't make games they made stories (or movies).

You do know that many people, including myself, think that most games are stories, right?

You're missing the point (and you're using movies again). I'm not going to argue with you.

Also games have stories. They aren't stories. They're games.

 

[BreakfastMan]

In order to tell a good story, one has to convey the importance of a character's actions or expressions. The best way to do that is to highlight them, so the person experiencing the story can understand the importance of that action/expression. Would The Shining have been as powerful without Kubrick using close-ups of Jack Nicholson's facial expressions to properly convey his decent into madness? No. The story could still be conveyed, but it would not nearly be as powerful or well-executed.

And Kubrick, Moore and Dickens didn't make games they made stories (or movies).

You do know that many people, including myself, think that most games are stories, right?

You're missing the point (and you're using movies again). I'm not going to argue with you.

Okay, if I am missing the point, explain it to me so I do understand. Because I obviously don't know what point you are trying to make.

EDIT: Also, using movies because I do not know which games you think have good stories. You seemed to accept my bringing up of Kubrick, so I was trying to find a common frame of reference to talk about it.

Also games have stories. They aren't stories. They're games.

Films can have stories as well. So can books. Yet they are also considered stories. Funny that.

 

[Flailing Escapist]

Okay, if I am missing the point, explain it to me so I do understand. Because I obviously don't know what point you are trying to make.

Also games have stories. They aren't stories. They're games.

Films can have stories as well. So can books. Yet they are also considered stories. Funny that.

My point is that games or anything else now that you dragged us into that doesn't HAVE to rely on zooming into something to make sure the rest of us get it. It helps convey a message or a point in movies because movies require almost no interaction or participation beyond looking at it. Movies don't NEED to do that either, though. No good story NEEDS that. It can help but in a game a cutscene that NEEDS to highlight something is breaking flow, immersion and is poorly represention that story if it NEEDS to do that. It can help but it shouldn't NEED to do that.

Films can have stories as well. So can books. Yet they are also considered stories. Funny that.

Films and books have stories. They are still films and books. The scar on my thumb has a STORY it doesn't mean it's story belongs in the same place as films, books or even games.

 

[Flailing Escapist]

[snip.

did I acutally say I prefered cutscnes OVER gameplay?...no..if that were the case I would like yakuza which I do not (because it doesnt want to be a game..it wants to be a movie..there is a difference)

when you can put the two together and they are BOTH good then youve got somthing awsome

its all on however the game wants to present the story...weather that be through cutscene or scripting..I dont have a preference..whatever works..take the first assasins creed..while they arent "cutscnes" per say they are more "heavyly guided" scripted events which were effective in making you feel that you werent just viewing the action..but a aprt of it...Its a shame they took a more cutscene heavy apraoch in later installments....

anyway, all Im saying is cutscenes are a tool...no tool is bad on its own..its just how its used

[quote/] This is what I'm talking about. A good story (you said you like story, right) doesn't have to zoom in on expressions or actions to get the story across. If a game has to do that many times maybe the story isn't all that good. Hmm?

if they filmed citizen kane with a shaky cam would that make the story worse? NO...it would just make it poorly implemented/directed

[quote/]Whatever makes you happy. But it rubs me the wrong way; like sitting on a cake. Or like that Bioware writer who wanted to skip all the gameplayz! But if watching videos in games make you happy then by all means, enjoy yourself [/quote]

I think your overeacting there

take dragon age origins..its an old school RPG and i absolutly sucked at it...but I perservered..why?

because the story/charachters were good enough for me to do so..if given the option I wouldnt have skipped gameplay...as playing was more or less fun and I was motivated to play BECAUSE of those bits where I would talk to other charachters..and where the story would movie along..I had it on easy so I wouldnt be tearing my hair out

mabye some peopel WOULD like to skip gameplay...it may rub you the wrong way...but the Idea that somone ignores the story completly also rubs me the wrong way...

but each to their own[/quote]

You said "they [cutscenes] are somthing to look forward too" and I extrapolated that meant you were looking forward to cutscenes more than you were looking forward to gameplay (in your GAME). I addressed this in my last post. I also stated that I said that if you're overlooking gameplay for the cutscenes maybe you shouldn't be playing a game. If that's not how you feel that I don't know why you're so upset.

You are overreacting. I come in peace.

 

[Vault101]

[snip

You said "they [cutscenes] are somthing to look forward too" and I extrapolated that meant you were looking forward to cutscenes more than you were looking forward to gameplay (in your GAME). I addressed this in my last post. I also stated that I said that if you're overlooking gameplay for the cutscenes maybe you shouldn't be playing a game. If that's not how you feel that I don't know why you're so upset.

You are overreacting. I come in peace.[/quote]

Im not overreacting

Im just saying.."looking forward" to somthing in a game doesnt mean Its the ONLY reason I play the game

 

[BreakfastMan]

Okay, if I am missing the point, explain it to me so I do understand. Because I obviously don't know what point you are trying to make.

Also games have stories. They aren't stories. They're games.

Films can have stories as well. So can books. Yet they are also considered stories. Funny that.

My point is that games or anything else now that you dragged us into that doesn't HAVE to rely on zooming into something to make sure the rest of us get it. It helps convey a message or a point in movies because movies require almost no interaction or participation beyond looking at it. Movies don't NEED to do that either, though. No good story NEEDS that. It can help but in a game a cutscene that NEEDS to highlight something is breaking flow, immersion and is poorly represention that story if it NEEDS to do that. It can help but it shouldn't NEED to do that.

I honestly do not think that there exists a good story that does not need to zoom into a character's expression/action, even if only for a brief second, and still tells its story well. Can you give me an example of a good story that was well told, but did not involve zooming into an expression/action to make sure the person experiencing it understood it's importance?

Films can have stories as well. So can books. Yet they are also considered stories. Funny that.

Films and books have stories. They are still films and books. The scar on my thumb has a STORY it doesn't mean it's story belongs in the same place as films, books or even games.

Okay... Your point is?

 

[Flailing Escapist]

Okay, if I am missing the point, explain it to me so I do understand. Because I obviously don't know what point you are trying to make.

Also games have stories. They aren't stories. They're games.

Films can have stories as well. So can books. Yet they are also considered stories. Funny that.

My point is that games or anything else now that you dragged us into that doesn't HAVE to rely on zooming into something to make sure the rest of us get it. It helps convey a message or a point in movies because movies require almost no interaction or participation beyond looking at it. Movies don't NEED to do that either, though. No good story NEEDS that. It can help but in a game a cutscene that NEEDS to highlight something is breaking flow, immersion and is poorly represention that story if it NEEDS to do that. It can help but it shouldn't NEED to do that.

I honestly do not think that there exists a good story that does not need to zoom into a character's expression/action, even if only for a brief second, and still tells its story well. Can you give me an example of a good story that was well told, but did not involve zooming into an expression/action to make sure the person experiencing it understood it's importance?

Films can have stories as well. So can books. Yet they are also considered stories. Funny that.

Films and books have stories. They are still films and books. The scar on my thumb has a STORY it doesn't mean it's story belongs in the same place as films, books or even games.

Okay... Your point is?

That's completely subjective. But I could tell you a story of the boy who cried wolf without ever tell you what the boy looks like, what his exact age is, what the wolves look like, how many people are in the rest of the village, how big the wolves' teeth are, etc. and it would still be a good story. You could do that with just about anything.

I'm not wasting anymore time on this. Have a good night, I'm not mad at you or anything I'm just not going to spend the rest of the night explaining this to you. If you don't get it by now you're either trolling or you won't get it from me here (on the internet).

Good night, good sir!

 

[paislyabmj]

2. I wont touch a game if it doesnt have anything resembling story...for me..thats a deal breaker...it doesnt matter if the game has the most amazing gameplay EVER if it doesnt have a story then theres no drving motivation to stick with it (well...granted I'll probably play it for a few hours, but I wont stick with it)

i guess this is were I would call you a bad gamer.if you cant just play a game ,yunno because its fun.then i guess that's hardly a point in your favour. I never needed a point of motivation in super meat boy because it was a fun game.i guess the point of motivation in that game is beating the challenge.if you are just pulled through game play for the next cutsceane you should probably just watch a movie.or play mgs.

 

[Flailing Escapist]

Im not overreacting

Im just saying.."looking forward" to somthing in a game doesnt mean Its the ONLY reason I play the game

You are so insulting. I said 4 posts ago IF that was you're only reason to play games you're priorities are mixed up. IF!!! How did that not get across to you?!

Here's the last thing I'm going to say on the matter: (the only reason I'm saying ANYTHING is because I think it might benefit YOU)
-If you're playing games but you're more interested in the cutscenes than you are in the game go watch a movie! You'll be saving yourself a lot of time and money, trust me.
-Cutscenes don't have to exist in games. Good stories don't need to reiterate themselves and games don't NEED cutscenes because there are a dozen different ways in game for any story to present themselves and cutscenes always break the flow of the game where the dozen different other ways won't.
-And you're free to like whatever you like. It may not be the way it was intented to be liked - cake is meant to be eaten not sat on - but fuck it, like whatever you want. For example: if you're so anxious for the cutscenes than maybe you'd like movies better than games.

Do you get it?

 

[BreakfastMan]

That's completely subjective. But I could tell you a story of the boy who cried wolf without ever tell you what the boy looks like, what his exact age is, what the wolves look like, how many people are in the rest of the village, how big the wolves' teeth are, etc. and it would still be a good story. You could do that with just about anything.

I'm not wasting anymore time on this. Have a good night, I'm not mad at you or anything I'm just not going to spend the rest of the night explaining this to you. If you don't get it by now you're either trolling or you won't get it from me here (on the internet).

Good night, good sir!

Not trolling, I just disagree with you. And if it can be done, then show me someone who has done it. And your opinion that it can be done without is completely subjective as well, just FYI.

 

[PBMcNair]

Films can have stories as well. So can books. Yet they are also considered stories. Funny that.

Films and books have stories. They are still films and books. The scar on my thumb has a STORY it doesn't mean it's story belongs in the same place as films, books or even games.

Okay... Your point is?

I think the point he's trying to make is that its possible to remove the story from a game and still have a game, something you can't do in other media.

Of course, games can tell their stories through their worlds, so removing all the story is almost impossible. But if you removed all the (non-briefing) dialogue from say Half Life, you would still have a fully functional (but vastly inferior) game.

 

[Vault101]

Im not overreacting

Im just saying.."looking forward" to somthing in a game doesnt mean Its the ONLY reason I play the game

snip?

yeah..I get it (dont need to repeat yourself)

and I stand by what I said about cutscnes

we dont need to misunderdtand/repeat/go in circles any further

 

[BreakfastMan]

Films can have stories as well. So can books. Yet they are also considered stories. Funny that.

Films and books have stories. They are still films and books. The scar on my thumb has a STORY it doesn't mean it's story belongs in the same place as films, books or even games.

Okay... Your point is?

I think the point he's trying to make is that its possible to remove the story from a game and still have a game, something you can't do in other media.

Of course, games can tell their stories through their worlds, so removing all the story is almost impossible. But if you removed all the (non-briefing) dialogue from say Half Life, you would still have a fully functional (but vastly inferior) game.

Nah, you can do that. There are films without stories (ala many porn ones, training videos, some documentaries) and books without stories (pretty much the entirety of non-fiction). I don't see what makes games so different. :/

 

[Vault101]

2. I wont touch a game if it doesnt have anything resembling story...for me..thats a deal breaker...it doesnt matter if the game has the most amazing gameplay EVER if it doesnt have a story then theres no drving motivation to stick with it (well...granted I'll probably play it for a few hours, but I wont stick with it)

i guess this is were I would call you a bad gamer.if you cant just play a game ,yunno because its fun.then i guess that's hardly a point in your favour. I never needed a point of motivation in super meat boy because it was a fun game.i guess the point of motivation in that game is beating the challenge.if you are just pulled through game play for the next cutsceane you should probably just watch a movie.or play mgs.

its not "cutscnes" in particualr (they can be nice somtimes) but just...context at least

I was perhaps exagerating..if somthing IS amazing gameplay wise then I would probably find it very fun

....I found red faction Gurrela to handle its story rather horribly..but it was a blast to play and i saw it out to the end

Darksider I had no fucking clue what was going on story wise..but I stuck with it....mostly (only because I got stuck at some puzzle)

so I guess there are some examples...Im ean if game storys are so horrible (as people often say) then theres obviously somthing there that keeps me playing right?

 

[PBMcNair]

Films can have stories as well. So can books. Yet they are also considered stories. Funny that.

Films and books have stories. They are still films and books. The scar on my thumb has a STORY it doesn't mean it's story belongs in the same place as films, books or even games.

Okay... Your point is?

I think the point he's trying to make is that its possible to remove the story from a game and still have a game, something you can't do in other media.

Of course, games can tell their stories through their worlds, so removing all the story is almost impossible. But if you removed all the (non-briefing) dialogue from say Half Life, you would still have a fully functional (but vastly inferior) game.

Nah, you can do that. There are films without stories (ala many porn ones, training videos, some documentaries) and books without stories (pretty much the entirety of non-fiction). I don't see what makes games so different. :/

In this scenario, we arent talking about making something without a story, but of removing story elements from an existing work. In my example, deleting dialogue from Half Life.
The story is now as non-existant as it can be, but the game just as functional.