American Theocracy

[Kpt._Rob]

I mean, WHY did the Pledge have to be removed from schools? I, as a Catholic, never took the line that includes "under God" to mean MY god... I thought it meant ANY god, even no god (if you were a atheist). It's a line that is meant to express the freedom of religion, not oppress it.

Actually, that line was put in in the '60s to show that we were different from those "godless commies". I'll admit, however, that controversy was completely overblown.

i can see that my pov is definitely not popular, and people just couldn't resist that juicy subject....I am not a religious nut, and I strongly believe in separation of church and state...I don't go to church that often, but I can clearly see the turning of America into a Godless country. Religion was not the basis for morals, but it upholds them, and without religion, morals can conceivably start to fade, and countless gray areas will start appearing.

Well, I see your point, and lord knows I respect you for making it, but I have to disagree. It is entirely possible to have morals without believing in a higher power. It's also possible to be a moral-less fuckwit while believing in a higher power. It's all so relative, and it completely depends on the individual person.

I'm fairly certain that our morals don't come from religion. If they did, the morals that religion gave us would, in the Christian context at least, come from the bible, and the bible is full of things with which I hope we can all agree are quite immoral. Slavery is bad; but if you read the bible you might conclude quite the opposite, earlier books of the bible have detailed instructions for the keeping of slaves (including instructions for how to sell your daughter into sexual slavery, and instructions for how to nail your slaves ear to a door), later books of the bible do nothing to refute this (as far as I am aware the gospel Jesus never addresses the issue, although some other new testament books do incourage slaves to obey their masters). People pick and choose which parts of the bible to say they're getting their morals from, and what we can conclude from this is that there is some other source from which people are drawing their reasons to pick which parts of the bible to follow and which parts to disregard. So morals don't come from religion, if they did the holy books would be followed word for word, instead morals come from something more deeply engrained in our own psyches, and we should be thankful for this. I am fairly certain that I am not the only one who is opposed to slavery.

 

[hungoverbear]

im just gonna say i am really sick of these type of threads, it goes from intelligent conversation to smug assholes slamming everyone, thinking "oh there are some religious nut jobs in america! then the whole country is full of religious nut jobs!" ok little fact, extremely religious people make up a very very very very very very small percentage of christians (and every other religion) Why cant people realize that?

Do what I do, correct people on their sociological or techincal errors, while trying to rapidly derail the thread at the same time.

Speaking of derailing, anyone catch the hockey game?

HELL YEAH GO REDWINGS!!!!!! was an awesome game and well fought victory its times like these i wish Detroit itself didnt look like the DC wastelands.....and thats being nice..

 

[reaper660]

America is, and always has been, a theocracy. Granted it's lessening, but until we've had an atheist run for office and at least get past the prelims, nothing has changed.

I get the feeling like religion is viciously attacked by atheists, but we don't attack them nearly as much.

^This, may or may not be true. I believe it to be false but I've never conducted surveys or anything. However, as an Atheist myself, I can honestly say that from my personal experience, religion is the thing that initially imposes and starts all attacks against that religion.

In my case, my religious neighbor asked me what church i want to. When I said i didn't go to church because I didn't believe in god, they claimed I was the devil and desperately tried to convert me. This resulted in me telling them reasons that I didn't believe in god, for example the overall lack of proof, and they claimed I was attacking their beliefs. This behavior from my experience is hardly rare, and I live in California, which is a very liberal state. Other reasons for atheists "attacking" religion include missionaries, people sent by the church with the intention of converting people. blue laws, like not being able to buy alchohol on sundays in most red states. And right infringement like telling us we can't get an abortion or things like the whole "gay marraige" issue.

I'de be willing to bet that at one point any given atheist didn't care about religion, until it started to in some way effect them.

I live in LA, and nearly every kid i've talked to about the subject angrily defend their "hatred of republicans" or "hatred of religion" without having any facts to back them up. The fact is that ( i know, it may sound like an old argument) liberalism dominates the media, and kids are exposed more to atheism, and liberalism...and are just spouting what they've heard on the T.V.

As opposed to just spouting what they hear in church. Point is, they're kids, they're gonna blindly repeat someone anyway, you have to give them time to form their own opinions.

the funny thing is, you hear this from celebrities all the time, and I know several adults who are the same way....I had a teacher in 5th grade who never failed to remind us that "bush is a terrible president" and "religion is the cause of all evil"

 

[reincarN8ed]

As a Canadian, Libertarian, Athiest, living in America on a Visa surrounded morality 'laws' it's starting to concern me that noone cares about the further integration of church and state. I know America has a new president, but to be honest he was just the lesser of two evils. Anywho, what are your thoughts? Is America becoming Theocracy? Is it one already? Is that a bad thing? I believe it is.

Alot of people misinterpret what "separation of church and state" means. It was originally meant to keep the state from running the church. If that were the case, state officials could redefine religion any time they pleased. This "code" does not mean that a government cannot have religious influences. If I recall, this entire COUNTRY was founded for the main purpose of religious freedom. Out Constitution and laws were founded on morality and righteousness. Frankly I think this country should do more to be moral.

 

[Kpt._Rob]

As a Canadian, Libertarian, Athiest, living in America on a Visa surrounded morality 'laws' it's starting to concern me that noone cares about the further integration of church and state. I know America has a new president, but to be honest he was just the lesser of two evils. Anywho, what are your thoughts? Is America becoming Theocracy? Is it one already? Is that a bad thing? I believe it is.

Alot of people misinterpret what "separation of church and state" means. It was originally meant to keep the state from running the church. If that were the case, state officials could redefine religion any time they pleased. This "code" does not mean that a government cannot have religious influences. If I recall, this entire COUNTRY was founded for the main purpose of religious freedom. Out Constitution and laws were founded on morality and righteousness. Frankly I think this country should do more to be moral.

I really wish people would be more careful with their wording. This country wasn't founded for freedom of religion. Many of the people who came here from Britian and founded the colonies which eventually formed this country came here for religious freedom. But the people who wrote our constitution, while making sure to preserve religious freedom, did not make that their primary goal.

 

[Avatar Roku]

America is, and always has been, a theocracy. Granted it's lessening, but until we've had an atheist run for office and at least get past the prelims, nothing has changed.

I get the feeling like religion is viciously attacked by atheists, but we don't attack them nearly as much.

^This, may or may not be true. I believe it to be false but I've never conducted surveys or anything. However, as an Atheist myself, I can honestly say that from my personal experience, religion is the thing that initially imposes and starts all attacks against that religion.

In my case, my religious neighbor asked me what church i want to. When I said i didn't go to church because I didn't believe in god, they claimed I was the devil and desperately tried to convert me. This resulted in me telling them reasons that I didn't believe in god, for example the overall lack of proof, and they claimed I was attacking their beliefs. This behavior from my experience is hardly rare, and I live in California, which is a very liberal state. Other reasons for atheists "attacking" religion include missionaries, people sent by the church with the intention of converting people. blue laws, like not being able to buy alchohol on sundays in most red states. And right infringement like telling us we can't get an abortion or things like the whole "gay marraige" issue.

I'de be willing to bet that at one point any given atheist didn't care about religion, until it started to in some way effect them.

I live in LA, and nearly every kid i've talked to about the subject angrily defend their "hatred of republicans" or "hatred of religion" without having any facts to back them up. The fact is that ( i know, it may sound like an old argument) liberalism dominates the media, and kids are exposed more to atheism, and liberalism...and are just spouting what they've heard on the T.V.

As opposed to just spouting what they hear in church. Point is, they're kids, they're gonna blindly repeat someone anyway, you have to give them time to form their own opinions.

the funny thing is, you hear this from celebrities all the time, and I know several adults who are the same way....I had a teacher in 5th grade who never failed to remind us that "bush is a terrible president" and "religion is the cause of all evil"

And some kids will take it to heart. And some won't. Preferably more will (just kidding)

EDIT:I figured I should expand. Naturally, there will be 3 possible results: There will be kids who believe these things just because they're said a lot, there will be a likely similar number who will not believe it specifically because it's said a lot, and then there's the ones who will form their own opinions, one way or the other.

 

[scotth266]

Actually, that line was put in in the '60s to show that we were different from those "godless commies". I'll admit, however, that controversy was completely overblown.

The guy basically spat in the faces of all Americans without realizing it, including himself... isn't that hilarious?

I mean, why? You could just have asked that your kid not participate if it offended you that much. If you were truly that offended, you shouldn't own any money, given that IN GOD WE TRUST is printed on most of it

I don't know about it really. It just gives me conflicting feelings of rage and humor.

 

[jboking]

Due to the fact that those government officials are always trying to please the people(so they can be reelected), the mindset of the government will almost always reflect the majority of the nations mindset. So long as the people keep seeing religion as the most important thing in their lives, the government will continue to have theocratic undertones. If you want that to change, then you will need to cause a large shift in thought among the majority of Americans. That does not mean turn all Americans into atheists. That means make all Americans understand that when it comes to politics you are dealing with bureaucracy and that a bureaucracy is no place for religion.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

 

[reincarN8ed]

As a Canadian, Libertarian, Athiest, living in America on a Visa surrounded morality 'laws' it's starting to concern me that noone cares about the further integration of church and state. I know America has a new president, but to be honest he was just the lesser of two evils. Anywho, what are your thoughts? Is America becoming Theocracy? Is it one already? Is that a bad thing? I believe it is.

Alot of people misinterpret what "separation of church and state" means. It was originally meant to keep the state from running the church. If that were the case, state officials could redefine religion any time they pleased. This "code" does not mean that a government cannot have religious influences. If I recall, this entire COUNTRY was founded for the main purpose of religious freedom. Out Constitution and laws were founded on morality and righteousness. Frankly I think this country should do more to be moral.

I really wish people would be more careful with their wording. This country wasn't founded for freedom of religion. Many of the people who came here from Britian and founded the colonies which eventually formed this country came here for religious freedom. But the people who wrote our constitution, while making sure to preserve religious freedom, did not make that their primary goal.

And I really wish you weren't a DICK!

 

[reaper660]

America is, and always has been, a theocracy. Granted it's lessening, but until we've had an atheist run for office and at least get past the prelims, nothing has changed.

I get the feeling like religion is viciously attacked by atheists, but we don't attack them nearly as much.

^This, may or may not be true. I believe it to be false but I've never conducted surveys or anything. However, as an Atheist myself, I can honestly say that from my personal experience, religion is the thing that initially imposes and starts all attacks against that religion.

In my case, my religious neighbor asked me what church i want to. When I said i didn't go to church because I didn't believe in god, they claimed I was the devil and desperately tried to convert me. This resulted in me telling them reasons that I didn't believe in god, for example the overall lack of proof, and they claimed I was attacking their beliefs. This behavior from my experience is hardly rare, and I live in California, which is a very liberal state. Other reasons for atheists "attacking" religion include missionaries, people sent by the church with the intention of converting people. blue laws, like not being able to buy alchohol on sundays in most red states. And right infringement like telling us we can't get an abortion or things like the whole "gay marraige" issue.

I'de be willing to bet that at one point any given atheist didn't care about religion, until it started to in some way effect them.

I live in LA, and nearly every kid i've talked to about the subject angrily defend their "hatred of republicans" or "hatred of religion" without having any facts to back them up. The fact is that ( i know, it may sound like an old argument) liberalism dominates the media, and kids are exposed more to atheism, and liberalism...and are just spouting what they've heard on the T.V.

i know many kids who go around and say "Bush sucks" and "there is no God." when I ask them "Why?" they have no answer

I'll answer you. How about Jocylyn Elders getting canned for daring to share science with the board of education? How about insisting the Earth is only ten thousand years old and then getting ME sued for arguing? How about suppressing birth control in countries that sorely need it, while making Viagra a medi-care covered drug? How about HPV vaccine suppresion because it might make five year olds promiscuous? How about stem cell research given the finger because apparenttly Jesus wants crippling genetic disorders to give misery to people. How about thousands of years of rock-solid faith and only crazy people see god or hear him? I could go on and on. If they just stayed in their bloody churches like they were supposed to, the worse thing that would have happened would have been that Armeggedon would have been accelerated and the bleedin stick people could say "Told you so!" But no, I got dogma on my money, a Creation Museum that has less science grounding than Disneyland, and disease walks over the earth because if ou get sick, it's because God doesn't love you!

you, kind sir, are a perfect example of one who takes completely unrelated facts into an argument. We've established that fundamentalists are very extreme, but even saying that Christians won't give medicine to those who need it is appalling.

thank you for trolling

 

[Compatriot Block]

Why is the pledge such a big deal? I'm Christian, and I don't say it half the time. Whoever said they're ashamed to be associated with fundamentalists earlier, welcome to my boat.

The S.S. Guilt By Association.

For every insane bible-basher I've found, I've found several quiet, unassuming religious people who I had known for years, but had never even known if they were religious at all. Hell, my neighbor, who happens to be a pastor, is good friends with at least one Atheist that I know. I just wish that people would assume the best of Christians/religious folk, and not the worst.

And I don't think America is even close to becoming a theocracy, honestly.