Anti-Child Society

[JoJo]

Well, in my case it's not by choice. I got a bachelor degree, joined the army on a special offer (because they had a crazy lack of mapmakers) and because I wasn't certain I'd be able to finish a master's degree, having run into some difficulties. Now I'm back to studying, and I have a wife I'd love to have children with, but seeing as our income is about ? 0 a month (we have to loan everything from an organisation that provides college grants, but ours is a loan because we've been studying for too long) children are not an option.

By the time my wife finishes her study, finds a job and settles in that and we pay off the worst of the massive tuition fee debths, we'll be well over 30 and it'll be too late.

If it's any consolation, my mother had her last child aged 38 (without IVF), so I wouldn't rule out having kids in your mid-30's. Don't give up hope, if you really want them I'm sure you can find a way

 

[blaqknoise]

Brat bans? Really?

To be honest, that sounds absolutely pathetic.

Imagine scenario:
You have just paid for yourself and your date to go to an expensive restaurant (not some family restaurant), you have paid plenty for your food and drinks and then a family comes in. They have a small child / baby. No problem. But within 5 minutes, it starts screaming and crying, the parents try to shut it up, it is two tables away, you can hear it clearly. The parents attempts are futile, as they normally are. They stay there for the duration of the rest of your date. You listen to screaming that entire time. Would you be happy with the management of this classy restaurant for allowing this?

Same idea goes for first class on trains and planes.

I'm a pretty patient person. I realize that parents may be new parents and might not be sure what to do and how to properly handle that situation. If the baby keeps crying and crying without stopping, then all the parents need to do is take the baby outside until it's quiet enough to bring back in.

For trains, there isn't and outside to go to, so you can take it into the bathroom or somewhere else where there isn't many people. (I've never been on a train so I don't know what's on them)

For planes, suck it up princess. The parents aren't asking the baby to cry and they can only do their best to make it stop.

I would rather parents sorted their child out straight away as opposed to banning them from classier places, but the fact is that many parents don't even bother, and many who do don't succeed, and since that is only getting worse, I see this as the next best option.

I only want them out of Classy, expensive areas. I fully understand the noise at a family restaurant or second class seating, but DO NOT bring that screaming baby near people who are paying larger amounts of money for a quality experience, because you are then ruining that for them, which is selfish and bad for business. With first class et cetera, you are paying partly for the luxury and experience, not just the trip. A crying baby in your cabin / restaurant completely ruins said luxury and experience. I can handle them as distant background noise, or if I am having a quick, cheap meal / trip et cetera, but in the same restaurant that charges double for service and and luxury, will lead to explosively bad results.

In classy restaurants the manager won't let you sit there with a crying baby for very long. He/She realizes that it isn't good for business and will ask you to take the child outside.

When you're on a plane just put on some headphones and listen to music or watch one of the movies they play. A crying baby really shouldn't bother you too much if you do that.

 

[Versuvius]

Neurologically the sound of a crying baby is tailor made to get a response out of you. To irritate another human being until it solves it's problem. NOT finding it annoying is something of a miracle in itself. Can't stand the sound myself. Childs laughter aswell gets to me. Oh and their -voices-...

 

[Phisi]

Hmm... Multiple questions. Okay, I do not have a problem with declining birth-rates as we live on a finite world so it must happen at some time. I Don't mind the changing social expectations, if they don't want kids then so what? However the banning children I find a bit strange. Some children I would call brats, not most as you would find that they are just more vocal and I have also seen many worse adults. But the fact still remains of what about the children that aren't like that. If say, a fine were to be implemented for any noisy children, and adults, on planes then who's opinion do you take? If someone hates children due to some prejudice and complains then are the parents fined or does a certain number of passengers have to complain. I do understand why people may want brat-bans. And I agree with it on the condition that they are banning brats instead or children. However a point I don't think has been raised is that if you ban children you are restricting the parents for doing something that society needs (Again I think its the parents fault if their children are brats so by all means restrict them) But it's like saying that all Garbage collectors are not allowed to eat bread. You don't need to eat bread but it seems bat-shit crazy to me to effectively punish people who society needs. But I think this discussing id mostly irrelevant as whether or not we have brat-bans depends on how society changes. Just my thoughts.

TLR Don't care about declining birthrates, undecided on brat-bans.

 

[Brandon237]

Brat bans? Really?

To be honest, that sounds absolutely pathetic.

Imagine scenario:
You have just paid for yourself and your date to go to an expensive restaurant (not some family restaurant), you have paid plenty for your food and drinks and then a family comes in. They have a small child / baby. No problem. But within 5 minutes, it starts screaming and crying, the parents try to shut it up, it is two tables away, you can hear it clearly. The parents attempts are futile, as they normally are. They stay there for the duration of the rest of your date. You listen to screaming that entire time. Would you be happy with the management of this classy restaurant for allowing this?

Same idea goes for first class on trains and planes.

I'm a pretty patient person. I realize that parents may be new parents and might not be sure what to do and how to properly handle that situation. If the baby keeps crying and crying without stopping, then all the parents need to do is take the baby outside until it's quiet enough to bring back in.

For trains, there isn't and outside to go to, so you can take it into the bathroom or somewhere else where there isn't many people. (I've never been on a train so I don't know what's on them)

For planes, suck it up princess. The parents aren't asking the baby to cry and they can only do their best to make it stop.

I would rather parents sorted their child out straight away as opposed to banning them from classier places, but the fact is that many parents don't even bother, and many who do don't succeed, and since that is only getting worse, I see this as the next best option.

I only want them out of Classy, expensive areas. I fully understand the noise at a family restaurant or second class seating, but DO NOT bring that screaming baby near people who are paying larger amounts of money for a quality experience, because you are then ruining that for them, which is selfish and bad for business. With first class et cetera, you are paying partly for the luxury and experience, not just the trip. A crying baby in your cabin / restaurant completely ruins said luxury and experience. I can handle them as distant background noise, or if I am having a quick, cheap meal / trip et cetera, but in the same restaurant that charges double for service and and luxury, will lead to explosively bad results.

In classy restaurants the manager won't let you sit there with a crying baby for very long. He/She realizes that it isn't good for business and will ask you to take the child outside.

When you're on a plane just put on some headphones and listen to music or watch one of the movies they play. A crying baby really shouldn't bother you too much if you do that.

I have explained that often the manager is not there, or too busy with other matters. And it can still lead to a good 10 minutes of earache before the manager does come through to see the problem.

And headphones are often not efficient as magical blockers of all sound, no matter how high-pitched, loud and close to you.

Maybe yes, the restaurants can be done on a case by case basis, so long as it is strictly enforced that you get out with the child until it is quiet, but that cannot happen in first class, there is not the space, and most babies will be crying for a while at some point or other on a long flight.

 

[SuperSuperSuperGuy]

I loathe children, but I hate terrible parents who refuse to discipline their child and make them act appropriately. I don't need for parents to make their kids act like mini-adults. I would just like for them to know when it's not appropriate to be loud and hyperactive. "Brat bans" are a good idea, but only if they focus on brats, e.g. disruptive children. Owners of places such as restaurants should be allowed to ask someone to quiet down a bit if they're disturbing the other customers. However, there is a problem with this. It would really suck if a couple with their kid were forced to leave a restaurant without finishing their meal because their kid wouldn't shut up. I think that, instead of being banned completely, disruptive children should be restricted to a sound-proofed separate room with the same services so that people who want to bring their kids can bring them, and people who want to go about their business can do such in peace. Obviously this wouldn't work for stores, but it's an idea.

That's my opinion on those "brat bans". To answer your question, I, personally, don't want to ever have children because I can do so many more things if I don't have one, so maybe other people think that way, as well. I'd have more money for myself, and I don't have to constantly care for anyone but myself. Having a child would restrict my freedom, which is one of the things that I value most in my life. Perhaps people have started realizing this more and more, so fewer and fewer people are having children. In addition, we have contraceptive methods, as well as abortions, available to people, so sexually active couples are far less likely to have an unwanted child.

 

[blaqknoise]

Brat bans? Really?

To be honest, that sounds absolutely pathetic.

Imagine scenario:
You have just paid for yourself and your date to go to an expensive restaurant (not some family restaurant), you have paid plenty for your food and drinks and then a family comes in. They have a small child / baby. No problem. But within 5 minutes, it starts screaming and crying, the parents try to shut it up, it is two tables away, you can hear it clearly. The parents attempts are futile, as they normally are. They stay there for the duration of the rest of your date. You listen to screaming that entire time. Would you be happy with the management of this classy restaurant for allowing this?

Same idea goes for first class on trains and planes.

I'm a pretty patient person. I realize that parents may be new parents and might not be sure what to do and how to properly handle that situation. If the baby keeps crying and crying without stopping, then all the parents need to do is take the baby outside until it's quiet enough to bring back in.

For trains, there isn't and outside to go to, so you can take it into the bathroom or somewhere else where there isn't many people. (I've never been on a train so I don't know what's on them)

For planes, suck it up princess. The parents aren't asking the baby to cry and they can only do their best to make it stop.

I would rather parents sorted their child out straight away as opposed to banning them from classier places, but the fact is that many parents don't even bother, and many who do don't succeed, and since that is only getting worse, I see this as the next best option.

I only want them out of Classy, expensive areas. I fully understand the noise at a family restaurant or second class seating, but DO NOT bring that screaming baby near people who are paying larger amounts of money for a quality experience, because you are then ruining that for them, which is selfish and bad for business. With first class et cetera, you are paying partly for the luxury and experience, not just the trip. A crying baby in your cabin / restaurant completely ruins said luxury and experience. I can handle them as distant background noise, or if I am having a quick, cheap meal / trip et cetera, but in the same restaurant that charges double for service and and luxury, will lead to explosively bad results.

In classy restaurants the manager won't let you sit there with a crying baby for very long. He/She realizes that it isn't good for business and will ask you to take the child outside.

When you're on a plane just put on some headphones and listen to music or watch one of the movies they play. A crying baby really shouldn't bother you too much if you do that.

I have explained that often the manager is not there, or too busy with other matters. And it can still lead to a good 10 minutes of earache before the manager does come through to see the problem.

And headphones are often not efficient as magical blockers of all sound, no matter how high-pitched, loud and close to you.

Maybe yes, the restaurants can be done on a case by case basis, so long as it is strictly enforced that you get out with the child until it is quiet, but that cannot happen in first class, there is not the space, and most babies will be crying for a while at some point or other on a long flight.

Well, it doesn't have to be the manager. They could always make a rule regarding crying babies. Something where if a baby is crying for a certain amount of time a waiter can ask the customer to take the baby outside. It isn't very hard, and it's a hell of a lot easier than trying to make a ban to keep them out entirely.

Headphones will be good enough to keep your mind on your music rather than concentrating on the crying. I do it all the time when flying between home and university.

 

[Fleischer]

What will be the new factor of overpopulation will be moreso life expectancy than birthrate. With people expected to live well into triple digits this century, populations will become an increasing social and political issue.

For my sake, I plan on having two children. If my wife's deal comes through - she has the first and I birth the second, then I might only have one kid. :b

 

[Brandon237]

Brat bans? Really?

To be honest, that sounds absolutely pathetic.

Imagine scenario:
You have just paid for yourself and your date to go to an expensive restaurant (not some family restaurant), you have paid plenty for your food and drinks and then a family comes in. They have a small child / baby. No problem. But within 5 minutes, it starts screaming and crying, the parents try to shut it up, it is two tables away, you can hear it clearly. The parents attempts are futile, as they normally are. They stay there for the duration of the rest of your date. You listen to screaming that entire time. Would you be happy with the management of this classy restaurant for allowing this?

Same idea goes for first class on trains and planes.

I'm a pretty patient person. I realize that parents may be new parents and might not be sure what to do and how to properly handle that situation. If the baby keeps crying and crying without stopping, then all the parents need to do is take the baby outside until it's quiet enough to bring back in.

For trains, there isn't and outside to go to, so you can take it into the bathroom or somewhere else where there isn't many people. (I've never been on a train so I don't know what's on them)

For planes, suck it up princess. The parents aren't asking the baby to cry and they can only do their best to make it stop.

I would rather parents sorted their child out straight away as opposed to banning them from classier places, but the fact is that many parents don't even bother, and many who do don't succeed, and since that is only getting worse, I see this as the next best option.

I only want them out of Classy, expensive areas. I fully understand the noise at a family restaurant or second class seating, but DO NOT bring that screaming baby near people who are paying larger amounts of money for a quality experience, because you are then ruining that for them, which is selfish and bad for business. With first class et cetera, you are paying partly for the luxury and experience, not just the trip. A crying baby in your cabin / restaurant completely ruins said luxury and experience. I can handle them as distant background noise, or if I am having a quick, cheap meal / trip et cetera, but in the same restaurant that charges double for service and and luxury, will lead to explosively bad results.

In classy restaurants the manager won't let you sit there with a crying baby for very long. He/She realizes that it isn't good for business and will ask you to take the child outside.

When you're on a plane just put on some headphones and listen to music or watch one of the movies they play. A crying baby really shouldn't bother you too much if you do that.

I have explained that often the manager is not there, or too busy with other matters. And it can still lead to a good 10 minutes of earache before the manager does come through to see the problem.

And headphones are often not efficient as magical blockers of all sound, no matter how high-pitched, loud and close to you.

Maybe yes, the restaurants can be done on a case by case basis, so long as it is strictly enforced that you get out with the child until it is quiet, but that cannot happen in first class, there is not the space, and most babies will be crying for a while at some point or other on a long flight.

Well, it doesn't have to be the manager. They could always make a rule regarding crying babies. Something where if a baby is crying for a certain amount of time a waiter can ask the customer to take the baby outside. It isn't very hard, and it's a hell of a lot easier than trying to make a ban to keep them out entirely.

Headphones will be good enough to keep your mind on your music rather than concentrating on the crying. I do it all the time when flying between home and university.

A rule on letting in and taking outside I can agree with, but I still think that for FIRST class only seating in a closed cabin, babies should be kept out. If you are spending the money for that peace and luxury on what is normally an uncomfortable endeavour, then it is simply not fair to have that money go to waste when a child cries and ruins that.

I think on that point we are going to have to agree to disagree though.

 

[blaqknoise]

Brat bans? Really?

To be honest, that sounds absolutely pathetic.

Imagine scenario:
You have just paid for yourself and your date to go to an expensive restaurant (not some family restaurant), you have paid plenty for your food and drinks and then a family comes in. They have a small child / baby. No problem. But within 5 minutes, it starts screaming and crying, the parents try to shut it up, it is two tables away, you can hear it clearly. The parents attempts are futile, as they normally are. They stay there for the duration of the rest of your date. You listen to screaming that entire time. Would you be happy with the management of this classy restaurant for allowing this?

Same idea goes for first class on trains and planes.

I'm a pretty patient person. I realize that parents may be new parents and might not be sure what to do and how to properly handle that situation. If the baby keeps crying and crying without stopping, then all the parents need to do is take the baby outside until it's quiet enough to bring back in.

For trains, there isn't and outside to go to, so you can take it into the bathroom or somewhere else where there isn't many people. (I've never been on a train so I don't know what's on them)

For planes, suck it up princess. The parents aren't asking the baby to cry and they can only do their best to make it stop.

I would rather parents sorted their child out straight away as opposed to banning them from classier places, but the fact is that many parents don't even bother, and many who do don't succeed, and since that is only getting worse, I see this as the next best option.

I only want them out of Classy, expensive areas. I fully understand the noise at a family restaurant or second class seating, but DO NOT bring that screaming baby near people who are paying larger amounts of money for a quality experience, because you are then ruining that for them, which is selfish and bad for business. With first class et cetera, you are paying partly for the luxury and experience, not just the trip. A crying baby in your cabin / restaurant completely ruins said luxury and experience. I can handle them as distant background noise, or if I am having a quick, cheap meal / trip et cetera, but in the same restaurant that charges double for service and and luxury, will lead to explosively bad results.

In classy restaurants the manager won't let you sit there with a crying baby for very long. He/She realizes that it isn't good for business and will ask you to take the child outside.

When you're on a plane just put on some headphones and listen to music or watch one of the movies they play. A crying baby really shouldn't bother you too much if you do that.

I have explained that often the manager is not there, or too busy with other matters. And it can still lead to a good 10 minutes of earache before the manager does come through to see the problem.

And headphones are often not efficient as magical blockers of all sound, no matter how high-pitched, loud and close to you.

Maybe yes, the restaurants can be done on a case by case basis, so long as it is strictly enforced that you get out with the child until it is quiet, but that cannot happen in first class, there is not the space, and most babies will be crying for a while at some point or other on a long flight.

Well, it doesn't have to be the manager. They could always make a rule regarding crying babies. Something where if a baby is crying for a certain amount of time a waiter can ask the customer to take the baby outside. It isn't very hard, and it's a hell of a lot easier than trying to make a ban to keep them out entirely.

Headphones will be good enough to keep your mind on your music rather than concentrating on the crying. I do it all the time when flying between home and university.

A rule on letting in and taking outside I can agree with, but I still think that for FIRST class only seating in a closed cabin, babies should be kept out. If you are spending the money for that peace and luxury on what is normally an uncomfortable endeavour, then it is simply not fair to have that money go to waste when a child cries and ruins that.

I think on that point we are going to have to agree to disagree though.

Yep, I think so too.

 

[Ken Sapp]

over population is only a problem in places like Africa, India and China, places like japan are having the opposite problem. and in a very many places that over population is a problem it's ofter a cultural thing, like how in both china and India males are preferred to females, so in china families might try to get rid of baby after baby until they get a son, and in India they JUST KEEP HAVING KIDS until they get a son, things would even out if each couple only had 1-2 children, but you could easily have a couple having 3-6 which is a problem when every other couple is having 3-6 kids as well.

The areas you point out are also places that are mostly still changing from third world agricultural societies to more industrialized societies where people live longer. Infant mortality rates are falling with the introduction of modern medicine and education. It often takes a couple generations before they are able to shed the mindset of an agricultural society where every child is an extra pair of hands to work on the family farm, most of whom do not live to adulthood.

 

[CrimsonBlaze]

I think it's kind of weird when they say that birthrates are low because I know many people who are just having kids and they are roughly the same age as me (mid 20s). Not to mention all those children born out of wedlock and young teen mothers.

Unless it refers to less children per household (i.e. 1 or 2 children per couple), then yes, I can see why. To go as far as to say that we are headed towards an anti-child society is a bit of a stretch. There are now two age groups in which people consciously decide (or not) to have children: the young and the mature.

They young (ages 15 - 23) are usually the most sexually active and often conceive out of wedlock. Many tie the not to ensure that their child(ren) has two committed parents and others chose to raise their offspring as individuals. Many have one or two children and settle down, but others continue to have unprotected sexual interplay and have more children.

The mature (ages between late 20s - early 40s) had a more career and goal oriented life and are now confident that they can bring children into the world and provide for them. Since they are very integrated into their work, however, they will have a max of 3 children only.

Still, to say that "brat bans" should be enforced is just idiotic. How can laws for obese adults be more of a concern than children? Or prison inmates for that matter? If children are not nurtured and cared for, they will grow up to be a burden to society than a solution. All those adult for "brat bans" will die off, leaving a society of misfit adults to fend for themselves.

 

[GigaHz]

And you know how often that is not the case?
I have had the same scenario many times. And generally there are 1 of 2 outcomes, what you mentioned happens, they come back in, in 5 minutes the baby is crying again. The baby doesn't understand, it isn't going to a lot of the time.
Second scenario, management does nothing. They are too busy / lazy / not present. The child screams, too many parents don't bother to take child outside, blood boils and I want to see a child-shaped soccer ball.

And on an aeroplane for first class, there isn't an "outside" to take the screaming child to.

If they don't care that a child is disrupting their customers, they are probably not a very fancy restaurant. The ones I've been to are very strict about dress code and behaviour and would not tolerate noise, as they know it would affect their business. They don't outright ban it, they have people deal with it. If their kid continued to make noise, I'm sure they would have been kicked out eventually. Besides, do you know how loud other adults are? Actively listen next time you are in a restaurant, people are LOUD. As I was saying about background noise, unless the restaurant is nearly empty, sometimes even loud children are masked by loud adults talking casually.

If somehow you go to a reputable restaurant and they don't take care of the noise, it is well within your right to go to the manager and make a complaint. If they don't take your complaint seriously, don't eat there again. It's incredibly simple. And as for noisy kids on a plane or any cramped space where they can't leave, purchase some headphones. Whether or not you're interested in whats playing, the headphones will dampen the noise. Or, if you don't feel like doing that, you could approach the parent yourself and ask them nicely to control their child. Hell, you could even ask the stewardess for you if you're too lazy/intimidated by confrontation. Don't pretend as if there is nothing that you can do if you're put in these situations because that's simply not true.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

You know, you seem to have a habit of making short, logical and interesting posts that get almost completely ignored in threads... Also, good point.

Danke. Just comes from stepping back and not rushing forward.

 

[Kayevcee]

It's sort of alarming to see how many people in this thread are continuing to say "less children is good because the planet is overpopulated" despite the number of determined posters pointing to articles and reports stating that our current population boom is down to people living longer and more oldies, not having too many kids. As many others have said, North America, Europe, China and Japan (and others) are not having enough children to sustain their populations and soon these countries are going to have a massive surplus of elderly people that they don't have enough young people to take care of, never mind support.

So... fewer children in developed countries is generally bad news, because we don't have enough. If you don't want to have kids, fair play, but if you do... don't be shy

-Nick

 

[Nikolaz72]

I think you are wrong, Although your view is shared by many on this website, this website's crowd is a minority in the real world. You are merely having this view of being in a world full of people who oppose children because of the Escapist. Bad company for parents and kids alike honestly.

Now dont take this as too much of a personal attack, even though I must admit it is a bit. I think there should be a ban on people who wants to ban kids from public places. Mainly because they tend to suck more than the kids could ever. Cynical, obnoxious. Arrogant. The children are just Ignorant and sometimes loud. Cant beat the Child-haters.

I hear a child screaming and crying? I can take it, if I couldnt i'd be a sissy.

I see a man behind me stand up from his table, and have a go at the parents at the table next to him with said Child. Im tempted to go hit him.. Just for good meassure.

Thats violent. And violence isnt quite me. But sometimes its just warranted. And when kids are loud and obnoxious I can take it. When adults act that way, I cant. They cannot be excused for it. The kid can. If they cant excuse the kid for being loud, they dont deserve to be excused for anything at all.

I love kids (awaiting the FBI now), and don't see how anyone could truly hate them. Kids are the most important people on the planet and it's our responsibility to see to it that the world they inherit is worthwhile and make sure they grow up to be happy. But American families not having as many kids is nothing to worry about. Back in the day, people died a lot more so having more kids was necessary. Today, not so much, and society's attitude towards having kids reflects that.

Do you mean that it is "our" responsibility meaning parents' responsibility? Or "our" responsibility meaning society's burden? I would agree with the first one but not the second one. Someone else's kid is not my problem and I consider no child to be my obligation. And I'd hardly call kids the most important people. I don't think there truly is a most important people.

(I really don't mean this to sound nasty towards you. Those are just my feelings.)

Of course it is not your responsibility to raise someone else's child (unless you want to), but as they say: Children are the future. They absorb information like a sponge and everything they see you do is reflected in the way they behave as adults. You don't know if this kid will be the next president or the guy who gives you your medicine when you're old and feeble. It's just something I hope you keep in mind when you interact with kids.

Or that kid could become the next Jeffrey Dahmer or Ed Gein or Mao Zedong. Just because you hope and think the brats will become good helpful members of society does not mean they will.

Personally I am glad the country is seeing less and less kids. They are a nuisance and I personally can not express in words the amount of loathing I have towards kids and the people that have more than 1.

This man just attacked my parents verbally behind their back. And serves as a perfect example of the people I want to hit usually. He even put his letters in red to symbolize how to be loud and obnouxious and arrogant. Even without being able to use your voice!

 

[Mr Pantomime]

-snip-

I have to say youve struck a cord, saying you loathe children. Its a point im coming back to more and more, but id hate to see a society that feels the way you do about children. Can you imagine a childhood where you are looked upon in distain simply because of your age? A minor annoyance to your parents and society at large, shunned from public places like a dog at a park. Locked in societys basement until some mesure of months and years determine them to be human.

I keep coming back to this point, but people dont seem to get it. Children are people, and you and I are no better than them.