Are men finished? Will our new female overlords be kind?

[b3nn3tt]

for what they perceive as years of oppression, or something.

Oh, right...those hundreds of years of being considered the property of men, not being able to vote or own our own property, not having access to education, being haunted by physical abuse and marital rape...we just imagined all of that.

I'm not saying women should "get men back", but maybe if you lot started to own the fuck up to what you've done for most of history, so many wouldn't want to.

You lot? How many people on this forum do you imagine have actually contributed to the oppression of women? Because I imagine that most people here weren't even alive during the time that women were fighting for their rights.

Personally, I've done nothing in my life to perpetrate the idea that women are tne property of men, I think women have every right to vote and own their own property, to partake in education, or to endorse physical abuse or marital rape. So I shan't be 'owning the fuck up' to anything.

 

[cobra_ky]

You lot? How many people on this forum do you imagine have actually contributed to the oppression of women? Because I imagine that most people here weren't even alive during the time that women were fighting for their rights.

Seeing as women are still fighting for their rights in many regards, i'd say all of us are alive during that time.

 

[b3nn3tt]

You lot? How many people on this forum do you imagine have actually contributed to the oppression of women? Because I imagine that most people here weren't even alive during the time that women were fighting for their rights.

Seeing as women are still fighting for their rights in many regards, i'd say all of us are alive during that time.

A fair retort. But I was referring to the time when women had pretty much no rights at all and had to fight just to be able to vote. I'm not saying that there are no issues affecting women now, but I'm sure you would agree that they are far fewer than was once the case?

 

[Hipster Chick]

I don't believe he was referring specifically to Sudanese genital mutilation. If you read the Wikipedia article, you saw the variety of procedures listed under type IV, including "nicking of the clitoris". I'm no expert on the procedure, but it sounds like circumcision is the more drastic procedure comparable to that.

Really though that's beside the point, because it's not a competition. FGM is a serious issue facing women around the world, but within the U.S., circumcision is far more prevalent. I'm still sort of on the fence with regards to circumcision, but i'm amenable to the argument that America largely tolerates altering the male member.

It's a situational and relative privilege women have in the U.S., largely a byproduct of Judeochristian privilege.

Yeah, but I was. His response that circumcision was equitable to having one's vagina essentially skinned and sewn up was a) bullshit and b) actually pretty insulting. Of course, even if you're comparing Type IV FGM to male circumcision, the latter doesn't take away your ability to have an orgasm on a regular basis, if at all. There isn't even a universal consensus on whether or not there's even a dramatic reduction in sensitivity.

 

[Hipster Chick]

You lot? How many people on this forum do you imagine have actually contributed to the oppression of women? Because I imagine that most people here weren't even alive during the time that women were fighting for their rights.

I was taking issue with his use of the term "perceived", like there was any debate over the fact that women have been second-class citizens in most of the world for most of history. I don't expect men to take personal responsibility for any of it, but I definitely expect you to acknowledge the facts and not pretend like their some revisionist, misandrist myth.

 

[Sangreal Gothcraft]

I'll only welcome them if they have Leather Clothes on and a Whip..

 

[b3nn3tt]

You lot? How many people on this forum do you imagine have actually contributed to the oppression of women? Because I imagine that most people here weren't even alive during the time that women were fighting for their rights.

I was taking issue with his use of the term "perceived", like there was any debate over the fact that women have been second-class citizens in most of the world for most of history. I don't expect men to take personal responsibility for any of it, but I definitely expect you to acknowledge the facts and not pretend like their some revisionist, misandrist myth.

But at the same time, women now have it a lot better than they ever have. There are still plenty of issues to work through, but I'd say things are always moving that bit closer to true equality.

I think the thing is that now, men are starting to realise that equality is a realistic premise in the areas in which women have traditionally been at a disadvantage, and have also started to notice areas in which women hold the upper hand.

This leads to people trying to compete over who has it worse, which won't actually help anyone. As I see it, as long as people are only concerned about inequalities affecting their own sex, nothing will really change.

 

[Ickorus]

No, women are not better than men.

Men are also not better than women.

We are equal.

Sure we excel at different things and are perhaps drawn towards different leisure activities but there is no reason to act like one is better or worse than the other.

 

[Hipster Chick]

You lot? How many people on this forum do you imagine have actually contributed to the oppression of women? Because I imagine that most people here weren't even alive during the time that women were fighting for their rights.

I was taking issue with his use of the term "perceived", like there was any debate over the fact that women have been second-class citizens in most of the world for most of history. I don't expect men to take personal responsibility for any of it, but I definitely expect you to acknowledge the facts and not pretend like their some revisionist, misandrist myth.

But at the same time, women now have it a lot better than they ever have. There are still plenty of issues to work through, but I'd say things are always moving that bit closer to true equality.

I think the thing is that now, men are starting to realise that equality is a realistic premise in the areas in which women have traditionally been at a disadvantage, and have also started to notice areas in which women hold the upper hand.

This leads to people trying to compete over who has it worse, which won't actually help anyone. As I see it, as long as people are only concerned about inequalities affecting their own sex, nothing will really change.

Yeah, they do, but that doesn't mean we still don't have a long way to go before we reach true equality. I never said I didn't have sympathy for the problems faced by men, but let's be realistic here: we live in a patriarchy. Find me one problem faced by men that is as serious and universal as one of the ones I first mentioned (except FGM, which doesn't really exist in the West.)

 

[b3nn3tt]

But at the same time, women now have it a lot better than they ever have. There are still plenty of issues to work through, but I'd say things are always moving that bit closer to true equality.

I think the thing is that now, men are starting to realise that equality is a realistic premise in the areas in which women have traditionally been at a disadvantage, and have also started to notice areas in which women hold the upper hand.

This leads to people trying to compete over who has it worse, which won't actually help anyone. As I see it, as long as people are only concerned about inequalities affecting their own sex, nothing will really change.

Yeah, they do, but that doesn't mean we still don't have a long way to go before we reach true equality. I never said I didn't have sympathy for the problems faced by men, but let's be realistic here: we live in a patriarchy. Find me one problem faced by men that is as serious and universal as one of the ones I first mentioned (except FGM, which doesn't really exist in the West.)

I presume you mean these ones:

No, women will never dominate men in a way that remotely resembles the way that men still dominate women. Men will never live in fear of being randomly brutalized by women. Men will never make 25%+ less than women just because they are men. Men will never have their penises skinned and sewn shut.

In terms of being brutalised, more men are the victims of domestic abuse than women. And in the majority of cases where men are the aggressor, the violence is actually reciprocal, so both partners are being abused there.

And I don't know what to actually believe about the wage gap. Because both sides of the argument present 'proof' that it either does or doesn't exist, there hasn't actually been an independent study done (that I'm aware of). So you have male groups arguing that any differences are the result of different work patterns, or something else. You then have female groups arguing that the wage gap exists independently of these issues. So I'm on the fence about that one.

I would argue that the attitude towards men raising their children is quite a major issue affecting men. In the UK, women are given a year of paid maternity leave, whereas men are given two weeks paternity leave. In almost all cases, this means that it is financially unviable for the man to stay at home to raise the child during that first year. Coupled with this, when parents divorce, in the overwhelming majority of cases it is the mother that has custody of the children, often sole custody. I'd say that these were quite major issues.

Also, the maternity/paternity issue, I think, ties into any wage gap that does exist; if there is the chance that someone will be paid for a year of work that they aren't doing, and someone else will only have two weeks off, it makes sense from the employer's perspective to pay the woman less. In my opinion, the best way to solve the 'wage gap' would be to give men and women equal maternity/paternity leave.

 

[Brandon Logan]

Step one: Follow Link.
Step two: Read and vote.
Step three: Realize men aren't finished according to 73% of voters.

Anyways I would welcome female's lead in society. I also voted for men to be finished..........I'm a guy.

 

[Johnny Impact]

I'm no good at debates, 'cause i like to cut right to the point. To wit: as long as there are spiders to kill and oil to be changed, men will always have a place in the world.

Yeah, that about covers it.

OT: I have noticed women are more than equal in a number of ways. Women can dress like men, men cannot dress like women. Women seem able to expect the man to pay for the date despite the crumbling of the glass ceiling. Men are expected to approach women, while women get to sit back and wait for a man who piques their interest. Women aren't expected to serve in combat. No divorced woman ever paid alimony or child support to a man, or had to give up a house she had paid for. Any time a man and a woman conflict over their child, the court is vastly more likely to award custody to the woman, because hey, aren't all men unfit parents? There's the "don't hit girls" rule requiring men to put up with being hit without retaliating.

I've seen women work these advantages for everything they're worth. One of the guys at my work had won custody of his son after a long battle. His ex was a bum, never had a job, never paid one dime of the support the court ordered her to. Not a peep from DHHS for ten years. The son was allowed, at his own request, to stay with his mother for just a couple months, for a change of pace. DHHS pounced on this, giving the woman full custody, and slapping hefty child support on my coworker. For being kind enough to grant his son's wishes, considerate enough to give the ex some time with the boy when he didn't have to, my friend lost his son, and now pays more in support than it cost him to support the kid himself.

 

[Merkavar]

honestly that debate sounds like they have already decided on a winner. saying women go to univesity and hold families together while men play games and go to prison. one sided much.

and saying that the post indstrialised world is better suited to women, is that cause office work is prformed better by women? what about building the office? the telecomunications networks? the power? computers etc etc, how many women are involved in manufacturing and construction.

 

[Hipster Chick]

In terms of being brutalised, more men are the victims of domestic abuse than women. And in the majority of cases where men are the aggressor, the violence is actually reciprocal, so both partners are being abused there.

I'm just going to focus in on this one, since the others are, as you said, complex at best...

RAPE.

 

[b3nn3tt]

In terms of being brutalised, more men are the victims of domestic abuse than women. And in the majority of cases where men are the aggressor, the violence is actually reciprocal, so both partners are being abused there.

I'm just going to focus in on this one, since the others are, as you said, complex at best...

RAPE.

Well, I can't really argue with that one. Unfortunately it's one of those areas where not an awful lot can actually be done. Things are also not helped by the fact that if ever anyone suggests how women might take measures to protect themselves they are accused of blaming the victim. In an ideal world, women should be able to dress and act the way they want without fear of being sexually assaulted. Unfortunately, there are people out there that would take advantage of opportunities to do so, so it may be necessary for women to take precautionary measures.

 

[intheweeds]

Looks like I need to find a woman with a good job and be a house husband. Good thing I know how to cook. It'll give me more time to play video games, so this could be a good change.

Problem being this:

One of those norms is that men are still expected to be the breadwinner, so even as it has become more permissible, and even desirable, for wives to work, men don't have the freedom not to work. In couples where women earn the bulk of the income and the man is either unemployed or earns a marginal income, the man is bothered because he feels like he should be the man and is somehow falling down on the job. Less well known, but equally true is that women are not so happy about men not being able to support the family either. The woman might feel she has the option to work, but she also feels that the man should make money too. If he's not, she thinks less of him. There is good statistical evidence to support that whether a woman is working doesn't influence the likelihood of divorce, but whether a man is working does. So, to put it simply, the unemployed husband equals divorce and the unemployed wife does not.

Source: http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2011/09/04/marriage_and_race_interview

You're expected to be the breadwinner AND be sensitive, cook, clean, and help out with the kids. Didn't you know?

Yes, in short. You are. But so are women. They do that now. They fought for the right to work in addition to the being sensitive, cook, clean and help out with the kids duties they already do. They weren't trying to turn men into housewives, but the fight does win men the right to have the option of being all those things and having them be positive attributes to women. They would like all of these attributes/ household tasks to be genderless. It's not generally women who are trying to emasculate you for being sweet to the kids and staying home to do housework, it's other men. In the same way it isn't generally men who enforce beauty standards on women, it's other women.

What feminists want is a fair and agreed upon division of responsibility. If a woman is pissed because you don't have a job, it's not because your 'less of a man', it's because she feels the household responsibilities are skewed too far towards your laziness. Before feminism, men didn't consider staying at home a job at all and men would complain or make jokes about they're wives at home eating bonbons all day. Sometimes he was completely wrong and an asshole, but I'm sure there were plenty of situations where a woman could have been out contributing if she had been allowed. Of course many would have preferred to be working during they're off time. Hence one of reasons for feminism.

If a stay-at-home dad has four young children and a three bedroom house while his wife works all day, I doubt she would be pissed he wasn't working. If she was, he has bigger relationship problems because she is clearly crazy. But if his one single kid is in school all afternoon and his wife gets home before they get out of school, he could probably stand to contribute more financially to the families future.

It isn't an all or nothing thing ever. I'm in a lesbian relationship, so there is no man/woman dichotomy. I was asked once by a straight guy how we decided who did what around the house. The obvious answer was that we took stock of the household responsibilities and divided them up based on what we liked to do and what was fair. We both work, we both do school and we both take care of the dogs/house. It seems silly to me a straight person should need to ask that question. If both people in a relationship agree to split the roles in an amicable way, then no one feels resentful and this isn't an issue.

I think it's just important to realize that feminism gives an opportunity to a man for every opportunity it gives a woman. If you agree that women should be afforded the same opportunities as men, it stands to reason that you also agree that men should be afforded the same opportunities as women, such as paternity leave or the option of staying at home with the kids.

You are correct that men are viewed differently by some segments of society when they choose to stay home. But that isn't misandry, it's a clue that we are not equals yet and feminism still has a ways to go. The reason i say feminism and not masculism is that the reason those segments of society see you as 'less of a man' is easy if you break it down. Saying 'less of a man' suggests that you are being less than something obviously, in this case a man. So you are less than a man. What act is it that makes you less than a man? An act that has traditionally been seen as female work. So what society is essentially telling you by making you feel bad for staying at home is: "Staying at home with the kids is womens work and women are less then men, so the fact that you choose to do this work, means you think like a woman. Therefore you are no different than a woman and as such worth less than a man." Feminism has a long way to go and it's for men's benefit as well.

 

[krazykidd]

I'm no good at debates, 'cause i like to cut right to the point. To wit: as long as there are spiders to kill and oil to be changed, men will always have a place in the world.

This made me lol so hard.

OT: Meh i don't care if women rule the world, as long as i can play my video games without incident, what ever happens in the outside world doesn't interest me .

BUT , Why should one sex rule the world ? I think a balance is the best thing that could happen. Balance with Sex and Race... but i'm just a crazy dreamer.


EDIT: I also think more women should go to war, but that's a different story .

 

[cobra_ky]

In terms of being brutalised, more men are the victims of domestic abuse than women. And in the majority of cases where men are the aggressor, the violence is actually reciprocal, so both partners are being abused there.

I'm just going to focus in on this one, since the others are, as you said, complex at best...

RAPE.

Well, I can't really argue with that one. Unfortunately it's one of those areas where not an awful lot can actually be done. Things are also not helped by the fact that if ever anyone suggests how women might take measures to protect themselves they are accused of blaming the victim. In an ideal world, women should be able to dress and act the way they want without fear of being sexually assaulted. Unfortunately, there are people out there that would take advantage of opportunities to do so, so it may be necessary for women to take precautionary measures.

There's plenty to be done, it's just that there's not much more women can be doing to stop it. At some point, men have to take responsibility and stop raping people. When it comes to rape prevention there's way too much emphasis on the victim's actions. As a society we have a tendency to throw up our hands and declare rape an inescapable evil that women have to structure their lives in order to avoid. That's BS. What we should be doing is looking at what drives people to commit rape and figure out how to stop (or at least reduce) it.

In particular, there's absolutely no evidence that what a woman wears has any effect on her chances of being raped. When people suggest "well, if she hadn't been dressed that way...", that's victim blaming.

 

[pro1337tariat]

Considering the business schools, physics, chemistry, and engineering/comp sci are still heavily dominated by males at my university, I have to say that the article posted there is worthless. Biology is a little more female friendly, but still has more guys.

Now I'm not saying that B.A. degrees (just some are, and there are some junk B.S. degrees) are pointless, but unless more women move into those degree fields, this "OMG WOMENZ ARE GOING TO TAKE OVER AND KILL US ALL. REPENT!!!!" is a load of BS.

 

[b3nn3tt]

Well, I can't really argue with that one. Unfortunately it's one of those areas where not an awful lot can actually be done. Things are also not helped by the fact that if ever anyone suggests how women might take measures to protect themselves they are accused of blaming the victim. In an ideal world, women should be able to dress and act the way they want without fear of being sexually assaulted. Unfortunately, there are people out there that would take advantage of opportunities to do so, so it may be necessary for women to take precautionary measures.

There's plenty to be done, it's just that there's not much more women can be doing to stop it. At some point, men have to take responsibility and stop raping people. When it comes to rape prevention there's way too much emphasis on the victim's actions. As a society we have a tendency to throw up our hands and declare rape an inescapable evil that women have to structure their lives in order to avoid. That's BS. What we should be doing is looking at what drives people to commit rape and figure out how to stop (or at least reduce) it.

In particular, there's absolutely no evidence that what a woman wears has any effect on her chances of being raped. When people suggest "well, if she hadn't been dressed that way...", that's victim blaming.

I think that one of the first things that needs to change is the idea that rape is something that happens while women are walking around by some shadowy figure who preys on those that are scantily-clad. To my mind, the most common kind of rape is when people meet in a club/bar and go back to someone's house, and the woman doesn't want to do anything but the man feels that he's been led on.

Now, I completely agree with you that the focus needs to be on stopping the mindset that men think they're entitled to sex in this situation, and to make it seem obvious that women are entitled to say no.

However, in these situations there are a lot of things that women could do to avoid the situation. I don't consider that blaming the victim, because obviously nobody deserves to be raped. But unfortunately we do live in a world where this kind of thing happens, so anything that people can do to minimise risks, I think, should be done.