Are the descendents of cultures who have been treated poorly playing victim?
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To the extent they're still hampered by any discernible impact from it, no, they're not just playing victims. It's a legitimate grievance.
Doesn't mean that the current descendants of their oppressors have to play perpetrators though; Liability dies with the one who committed the offence, there's a reason we don't imprison the children of even the most heinous of murderers.
So there's really only history and the dead to direct their grievances against. To the extent the living have committed no wrong, they are of course blameless. You are not your dead grandfather's keeper.
Doesn't mean that the current descendants of their oppressors have to play perpetrators though; Liability dies with the one who committed the offence, there's a reason we don't imprison the children of even the most heinous of murderers.
So there's really only history and the dead to direct their grievances against. To the extent the living have committed no wrong, they are of course blameless. You are not your dead grandfather's keeper.
I mostly agree with this. However, I do think that if something horrible that happened to your ancestors still isn't being recognized by the country or group that originally caused it, you have all the right to complain or protest. Think of the Armenian genocide of 1913: acknowledging it even happened is still illegal in Turkey.Jonluw said:
As far as my own country goes: the Dutch government has never formally apologized, compensated or really acknowledged the war crimes that have been commited during the Dutch invasion in Indonesia just after World War II.
There has also never been an apology to the Moluccans who fought alongside the Dutch during that war and had to flee here afterwards. After they arrived, they were put in (former Nazi concentration) camps and treated as second-class citizens.
Pffft I hear ya, I was denied the basket ball team despite being twice as strong, three times as fast and half a foot taller than most because I wasn't Native American. I have also seen colleges and scholarly programs that are ONLY for those either black or Native American cultures yet there is no such school or scholarly program for strictly white people and when there was it was looked down upon as racism and the guy who fought against such racism is taught as a sort of hero in our school even to this day.
If you are what was once an under privileged race and you try to use that to your advantage, then you are the greatest disrespect imaginable to your ancestors and all who have fought for equal rights.
As for the idea that you might be disadvantaged because your ancestors had been disadvantaged so you might have been born into nobility or something stupid before that, no, we all have to deal with that regardless because the very nature of a world where everyone has the opportunity to become powerful means that every has the risk of becoming impoverished. Also the fact that these people can easily get free housing, and enough money for moderate luxuries along with food stamps and health care and the such makes it so that we have about a quarter of the population in this town as Indians who go to the bars/liquor stores every day, mid day, and get completely wasted then roam around town acting rambunctious. This is because they do not have to work in order to afford these basic luxuries and as such have motivation to work in order to earn them. I mean if you got enough money to eat decent food every day, pay for your house, and then go party every night just because of your race. Would you go work so that you could personally pay for your house, eat slightly crappier food, and then have to spend your nights resting for a hard day at work in the morning? heck I understand those who were effected this shit most recently, but after four or five generations people really aren't even that effected by it.
If you are what was once an under privileged race and you try to use that to your advantage, then you are the greatest disrespect imaginable to your ancestors and all who have fought for equal rights.
As for the idea that you might be disadvantaged because your ancestors had been disadvantaged so you might have been born into nobility or something stupid before that, no, we all have to deal with that regardless because the very nature of a world where everyone has the opportunity to become powerful means that every has the risk of becoming impoverished. Also the fact that these people can easily get free housing, and enough money for moderate luxuries along with food stamps and health care and the such makes it so that we have about a quarter of the population in this town as Indians who go to the bars/liquor stores every day, mid day, and get completely wasted then roam around town acting rambunctious. This is because they do not have to work in order to afford these basic luxuries and as such have motivation to work in order to earn them. I mean if you got enough money to eat decent food every day, pay for your house, and then go party every night just because of your race. Would you go work so that you could personally pay for your house, eat slightly crappier food, and then have to spend your nights resting for a hard day at work in the morning? heck I understand those who were effected this shit most recently, but after four or five generations people really aren't even that effected by it.
This would be a bit of a gray area. I'm not sure if you realise just how family oriented most Aboriginal people are, and then this is exacerbated by the history government institutions have with Aboriginal families.thaluikhain said:
This is why Aboriginal people need to balance education and social mobility with family life, as we're the only ones who can end some of the incredibly destructive lifestyles.
That's totally dependant on a number of factors.
Do the consequences of this mistreatment still affect people to this day - such as within the Aboriginal population of Australia, or the original North Americans - or are they just bitching because they feel it gives them the higher moral ground?
Do the people still remember the mistreatment, or has it entered the culture as simply something bad that their forbears suffered through hundreds of years ago?
It's really dependant on the situation, although I believe that more effort should be made to improve upon the situation, rather than bitching about the past.
Do the consequences of this mistreatment still affect people to this day - such as within the Aboriginal population of Australia, or the original North Americans - or are they just bitching because they feel it gives them the higher moral ground?
Do the people still remember the mistreatment, or has it entered the culture as simply something bad that their forbears suffered through hundreds of years ago?
It's really dependant on the situation, although I believe that more effort should be made to improve upon the situation, rather than bitching about the past.
Eh, some perhaps, but they have some right, a few take it too far but honestly with the way (for excample) racial segregation was kept until very recently and the way racism has pesisted as long as it has many people wil have had parents that had to deal with it directly, quite a few of which may still be alive.
I guess the Idea is that such discrimination and mistreatment still has its effects today thease groups tend to be in a cycle of poverty
take for example the Aboriginal people of Australia, they were fucked over pretty well acctually for a long time (the whole stolen generation thing only stoped in the 60's and still has its effects today) and as I said before this has been part of a cycle of poverty and bad socio ecenomic conditions like any group really
on the other hand....
people still are quite happy take welfare, and booze it all away do crime and drugs ect..Mabye some of it is in the culture, but anyway if your in that situation its hard to crawl out of it...or mabye you just dont want to anyway the Idea here I guess is they should really start taking responsibility for themselfs
anyway the situation is a sensitive one and know really seems to know the answer
take for example the Aboriginal people of Australia, they were fucked over pretty well acctually for a long time (the whole stolen generation thing only stoped in the 60's and still has its effects today) and as I said before this has been part of a cycle of poverty and bad socio ecenomic conditions like any group really
on the other hand....
people still are quite happy take welfare, and booze it all away do crime and drugs ect..Mabye some of it is in the culture, but anyway if your in that situation its hard to crawl out of it...or mabye you just dont want to anyway the Idea here I guess is they should really start taking responsibility for themselfs
anyway the situation is a sensitive one and know really seems to know the answer
The problem lies in assuming that all the elements of 'victimhood' are gone just because the law no longer recognizes them.
Let's take black people as an example. Sure, there are black people nowadays who are successful and who don't seem to suffer any discrimination, but that doesn't mean that on a functional level being black does not affect your life expectations or how you are seen in wider society. Even if you are the exception, even if you walk around in a £1000 suit, everyone around you is always going to be thinking 'oh, a black dude in an expensive suit, how novel. He must be very lucky'. You are still being noticed and picked out on account of your race in a way no white person ever would be in the vast majority of social situations.
As regards the actual past though. People need to remember, and people need to feel some kind of connection to the achievements of the past. You may not notice that you do this, but think about it.. every time you celebrate the achievements of someone like Issac Newton or Winston Churchill (just throwing names out, pick virtually anyone you want) you are, in an unacknowledged way, celebrating their whiteness, or their Europeanness, or the parts of them which you can identify with yourself. A black person can't necessarily do that, they're not made to feel part of that white European heritage, so instead they seek to have pride what they are given, which is a narrative of slavery and degradation.
The worst thing you can do is to feel threatened by that, because that sense of threat is what inspires many kinds of racist or supremacist sentiments. Racism doesn't just manifest in a hatred of those with a different culture or skin colour, it also manifests in the desire to be (or the assumption that you already are) absolutely normal, as in completely unraced or without any cultural bias while keeping everyone else in special marginal boxes. That slavery and oppression is not just 'black history' or 'arab history' or 'indian history', it's your history too, though you might not want to admit it. It's where you come from, and it's where the forces which shape your life every single day come from.
In short, be very careful in these kinds of situations and always check your privilege before assuming you're just an ordinary person who isn't involved in anything bad happening ever.
Let's take black people as an example. Sure, there are black people nowadays who are successful and who don't seem to suffer any discrimination, but that doesn't mean that on a functional level being black does not affect your life expectations or how you are seen in wider society. Even if you are the exception, even if you walk around in a £1000 suit, everyone around you is always going to be thinking 'oh, a black dude in an expensive suit, how novel. He must be very lucky'. You are still being noticed and picked out on account of your race in a way no white person ever would be in the vast majority of social situations.
As regards the actual past though. People need to remember, and people need to feel some kind of connection to the achievements of the past. You may not notice that you do this, but think about it.. every time you celebrate the achievements of someone like Issac Newton or Winston Churchill (just throwing names out, pick virtually anyone you want) you are, in an unacknowledged way, celebrating their whiteness, or their Europeanness, or the parts of them which you can identify with yourself. A black person can't necessarily do that, they're not made to feel part of that white European heritage, so instead they seek to have pride what they are given, which is a narrative of slavery and degradation.
The worst thing you can do is to feel threatened by that, because that sense of threat is what inspires many kinds of racist or supremacist sentiments. Racism doesn't just manifest in a hatred of those with a different culture or skin colour, it also manifests in the desire to be (or the assumption that you already are) absolutely normal, as in completely unraced or without any cultural bias while keeping everyone else in special marginal boxes. That slavery and oppression is not just 'black history' or 'arab history' or 'indian history', it's your history too, though you might not want to admit it. It's where you come from, and it's where the forces which shape your life every single day come from.
In short, be very careful in these kinds of situations and always check your privilege before assuming you're just an ordinary person who isn't involved in anything bad happening ever.
Well, yes, it's always an awkward issue (though I'd argue it'd be as bad for people of more or less any culture). However, we've all heard plenty of stories about times when parents were, by any reasonably standard, unfit to raise their children, but DoCS refused to take the same action they would have for anyone else.Still Life said:
I'd tend to agree with that, but I'd also add that the rest of society as a whole has to stop thinking of Aboriginals as quaint/noble savages. For example, when the Green party was objecting to Aboriginal land being developed by Aboriginal owners...they're all in favour of Aboriginals owning land, but as long as they do stereotypical Aboriginal things with it, instead of being able to use it the same as everyone else. Admittedly, yes, the Greens party is very good at badly thought out but well intentioned activities, but it's indicative of a very widespread attitude.Still Life said:
Personal responsibility doesn't seem to be terribly popular. People complain about welfare cheats, but given the opportunity, who could honestly say they weren't at risk of becoming the same?Vault101 said:
Yes, unfortunately a lot of lefties and environmentalists want to keep Indigenous Australians in "Cultural Theme Parks" so they can feel good about their enlightened attitudes without going to the bother of asking any of the blackfellas what they want. Can't really see much of a difference there to the old fucked up 'breed the black out of them' attitude.thaluikhain said:
This is a tricky question, but I believe there are certain cases where people living today have legitimate complaint for past wrongs, even if nothing overt has actually happened to them. Two groups come most readily to my mind--African Americans and Native Americans. Allow me to explain:
Since the first Europeans arrived (barring of course any Vikings who might have found their way across earlier than Columbus) Native Americans have been treated rather poorly, and have been systematically attacked on all levels, physical, mental, and spiritual. Likewise, Africans were brought to the New World as slaves--from the very beginning they were confined to the very lowest levels of existence. And a lot of people don't realize this, but there were very high numbers of Native American slaves as well--prior to 1720 Carolina exported more Native American slaves than it imported Africans (and probably the only reason Native American slavery declined was because about 90% of all Native Americans died from European diseases). Essentially, both Africans and Native Americans were reduced to squalor and held there for centuries.
Eventually, slavery was abolished in this country. And to hear a lot of people in this forum talk, that is where their "victimhood" ends. But were the former slaves repaid for what had been taken from them? Were they lifted back up to a reasonable level? Certainly not! All the US did was stop inflicting further crimes against them. The critical moment was in 1865, when General Sherman promised freed slaves "40 Acres and a Mule" as reparations for slavery. 40 Acres and a Mule was the foundation of a family farm, and would have, at least symbolically, restored to the former slaves the opportunities they had been denied. But then Lincoln was assassinated, and the promise was broken. The land granted to the freed slaves was returned to its former white owners, and slavery returned (in a less overt form).
Here is another way to explain it: imagine that I force you to carry a 200 lb weight on your back at all times. Wherever you go and whatever you do, you have to lug that weight around. At first you stand strong, but over time it gradually wears you down. Your posture worsens and your legs bow outward. Eventually, your spine curls under the weight, and you become permanently disfigured. Then, one day, I take off the weight and don't make you carry it anymore. Does me taking that weight off of you make us even again? Should I now expect you to walk just like me, with perfect posture and excellent poise? Of course not--I inflicted lasting harm on you. Unless I pay for surgery to repair the damage I inflicted, you will probably never walk normally.
As I said, this is a tricky question, because unlike my example there have been many generations since the weight was removed. Do the descendants of slave owners owe something to the descendants of slaves? Most people would answer no, but we must acknowledge that the current social order was built on oppression and theft. If I buy a stolen car, even if I have no knowledge of or connection to the theft, that car is not truly mine.
This is precisely the dilemma that confronts us: white America is in possession of stolen property (the land was stolen from the Native Americans, and a great deal of wealth can be traced back to the time of African slavery), and Native Americans and African Americans are still suffering because of the loss. But the thieves, the ones who are directly responsible, are long dead. They cannot pay, and they cannot be punished. What is the correct solution?
I don't really know the answer, but my response would be this: why are we so worried about assigning blame and responsibility in the first place? These people are suffering from unjust circumstances, and many of us have means to spare. Shouldn't we try to help them simply because we are a civilized society and want as many people as possible to reach their full potential? How many geniuses have we lost to violence and neglect in the ghetto and in prison? We like to think that true geniuses will rise regardless of their circumstances, but that is a myth the people who made it like to spout because it makes them seem even more amazing. For every rags to riches story there are probably 1000 people who were just as brilliant but whose brilliance was never seen because they had to drop out of school and spend their time working at McDonalds to pay for their crippled parent who was injured without health insurance and their siblings who spend all day living next to drug dealers and prostitutes and getting shot at on the way to school. This isn't sad just for the people who never get the chance to shine. It's sad for all society that is denied the benefits of their brilliance.
Since the first Europeans arrived (barring of course any Vikings who might have found their way across earlier than Columbus) Native Americans have been treated rather poorly, and have been systematically attacked on all levels, physical, mental, and spiritual. Likewise, Africans were brought to the New World as slaves--from the very beginning they were confined to the very lowest levels of existence. And a lot of people don't realize this, but there were very high numbers of Native American slaves as well--prior to 1720 Carolina exported more Native American slaves than it imported Africans (and probably the only reason Native American slavery declined was because about 90% of all Native Americans died from European diseases). Essentially, both Africans and Native Americans were reduced to squalor and held there for centuries.
Eventually, slavery was abolished in this country. And to hear a lot of people in this forum talk, that is where their "victimhood" ends. But were the former slaves repaid for what had been taken from them? Were they lifted back up to a reasonable level? Certainly not! All the US did was stop inflicting further crimes against them. The critical moment was in 1865, when General Sherman promised freed slaves "40 Acres and a Mule" as reparations for slavery. 40 Acres and a Mule was the foundation of a family farm, and would have, at least symbolically, restored to the former slaves the opportunities they had been denied. But then Lincoln was assassinated, and the promise was broken. The land granted to the freed slaves was returned to its former white owners, and slavery returned (in a less overt form).
Here is another way to explain it: imagine that I force you to carry a 200 lb weight on your back at all times. Wherever you go and whatever you do, you have to lug that weight around. At first you stand strong, but over time it gradually wears you down. Your posture worsens and your legs bow outward. Eventually, your spine curls under the weight, and you become permanently disfigured. Then, one day, I take off the weight and don't make you carry it anymore. Does me taking that weight off of you make us even again? Should I now expect you to walk just like me, with perfect posture and excellent poise? Of course not--I inflicted lasting harm on you. Unless I pay for surgery to repair the damage I inflicted, you will probably never walk normally.
As I said, this is a tricky question, because unlike my example there have been many generations since the weight was removed. Do the descendants of slave owners owe something to the descendants of slaves? Most people would answer no, but we must acknowledge that the current social order was built on oppression and theft. If I buy a stolen car, even if I have no knowledge of or connection to the theft, that car is not truly mine.
This is precisely the dilemma that confronts us: white America is in possession of stolen property (the land was stolen from the Native Americans, and a great deal of wealth can be traced back to the time of African slavery), and Native Americans and African Americans are still suffering because of the loss. But the thieves, the ones who are directly responsible, are long dead. They cannot pay, and they cannot be punished. What is the correct solution?
I don't really know the answer, but my response would be this: why are we so worried about assigning blame and responsibility in the first place? These people are suffering from unjust circumstances, and many of us have means to spare. Shouldn't we try to help them simply because we are a civilized society and want as many people as possible to reach their full potential? How many geniuses have we lost to violence and neglect in the ghetto and in prison? We like to think that true geniuses will rise regardless of their circumstances, but that is a myth the people who made it like to spout because it makes them seem even more amazing. For every rags to riches story there are probably 1000 people who were just as brilliant but whose brilliance was never seen because they had to drop out of school and spend their time working at McDonalds to pay for their crippled parent who was injured without health insurance and their siblings who spend all day living next to drug dealers and prostitutes and getting shot at on the way to school. This isn't sad just for the people who never get the chance to shine. It's sad for all society that is denied the benefits of their brilliance.
40 Years ago (to the month actually), the people of Bangladesh were subjected to Genocide on a nation-wide scale by Pakistan. Millions were killed especially our intellectuals, setting us (as a nation) back by 50 years before we were even a year old.
Do Bangladeshi's have the right to hate Pakistanis every opportunity they get? I would say ABSOLUTELY. I do. And I was born 20 years after the War.
A lot of you have said "You have no right to act victimized if you YOURSELF were never mistreated personally." I would say that that is naive Bullshit. Racial scars run deep, and heal slowly. It's not an individual thing and it cannot be rationalized as such....
Do Bangladeshi's have the right to hate Pakistanis every opportunity they get? I would say ABSOLUTELY. I do. And I was born 20 years after the War.
A lot of you have said "You have no right to act victimized if you YOURSELF were never mistreated personally." I would say that that is naive Bullshit. Racial scars run deep, and heal slowly. It's not an individual thing and it cannot be rationalized as such....
I never made a claim to support social and cultural inequities, I merely state that all cultures have faced these at one point or another, and that therefore one cannot blame one entire culture for the standing of other cultures in this day and age.Still Life said:
So, did the native Africans come and take over your land and take your children?[/quote]
If you mean today, then yes, native Africans routinely kidnap mixed children for mutilation in African home countries in accordance with their own culture.
If you mean histrionically, then yes, native Africans invaded, pillaged, enslaved and murdered Europeans during the Umayyad conquest of Spain and Portugal.
The overall influence of this upon individuals is extremely low however, which is why I do not feel that discussion about which culture has been mistreated more is a sensible one to be having. If you have personally been wronged by an institution or person then I recommend that you seek legal redress via the courts.
Oh wow. I don't even know how to reply to something that illogical. I mean, granted, Stormfront probably thinks YES ISAAC NEWTON WAS WHITE every time they do physics, but are you seriously saying that when we teach kids about the great philosophers and scientists of Europe, we're oppressing black people? That's just silly.evilthecat said:
The fact that their whiteness is, as you said unacknowledged (bolded in quote for you) is actually a good thing. It shows that they are being considered on their merits as men, not as whites. When you press policies like affirmative action, or otherwise focus on the differences between us, you only further alienate people and force them to distinguish themselves based on race.
Yes But if you live in rurul austtrailia like me, most of the, well unsavory citizens, are aborigonal, they should strive to break free of this mould and not let it hold back advancment, also who else hates people who say: "oh, well by grandad was half aboridgional so I am better then you, FUCK they are everywhere.RhombusHatesYou said:
I wasnt implying that white trash dosnt exist...it doesRhombusHatesYou said:
but I mean for some reason this affects Aboriginal people more than any other part of Australian society, why is this? is it an after effect of all the abuse they recived? is there also somthing in the culutre that doesnt encourage them to be anythign more?
(then again Like I said its all similar to any "low socio ecenomic"" group in society
(in regards to that Ive heard people talk about how their culutre is a little different to our western values, theres not so much emphasis on personal property ect)
anyway Im not trying to hate on Aboriginal people either