Ballad (?) of an ex-goth

[El Poncho]

I've never been a goth , a few of my old friends were I guess but meh, never listened to any of there music and i'm good at starting conversations with people

 

[bjj hero]

Are we sure they aren't ravers in the picture?

Cyber-goth... oh dear.

I've had goth friends and goth exes (great sex, lousy CD collection). Most of them grow out of it once they stop the crying and bed wetting. A pretentious, eletist lot as a whole. Desperate to one up and out-goth each other.

I've noticed Goths seem to have got fatter over the last 10 years or so. Amphetamine must have fallen out of fashion.

 

[Legion]

Ughh... No one cares.

No one cares if you were a gothic child in your past... What matters is the present and the future, if that even matters at all.

I could post a long existential rant about the pointlessness of cliques and what-not... But no... In the end, it won't even matter. Hell, I don't even know why I'm posting in this pointless thread... it adds nothing to the completely shallow discussion.

All threads are pointless.
Except maybe that one about catching that pedophile...

Still, I wear a lot of black, and I do have an apreciation for NIN'n such, but by no means am I goth.

Oh if you're a goth you're not actually allowed to like NIN. It's one of the "rules". Seriously.

Goths hate NIN because he is seen as commercialising industrial music and if there's one thing goths look down on it's being popular with people outside of their social clique. Goths are very snobby and like to be an exclusive club wearing their badge of "you don't understand me".

Oh...
Well, that's just silly.

It's also complete bullshit. He is basing his opinion of a 30 year old subculture on a couple of people he met. That's like saying all Emo's cut themselves and all Punks try and bring down society.

Of course, some are like that. You get elitists in any type of group, just look at the Metal threads for examples of that. Christ, you even get it with gamers with the whole 'hardcore' and 'casual' thing.

Most Goth's in reality are completely aware of the fact they dress differently, the attire was in fact a form of mockery of social norms. It's one thing a lot of non-Goths's don't seem to get, Goth's do not take themselves completely seriously. Those that do tend to be the ones looking for social acceptance because they aren't popular, or they grow out of it.

There is also a considerable difference between the UK Goth scene and the US. In the UK there are no "cliques" like in the US, we don't get the "geeks", "preps", "jocks" and so on. Mainly because pretty much every school has uniform so you make friends in the "normal" way a lot more often.

The problem this creates in the US is that people see a bunch of black wearing school kids and think "Goth", the problem there, is that the kids call themselves the same thing because they want to be accepted within a group, just like most kids.

The reality is that the vast majority of Goth's are not of school-age, they are adults. It's because the kids who wear black and listen to Marilyn Manson are considered Goth that so many get elitist about it. They don't want to be associated with a bunch of "depressed" kids who ***** about how nobody understands them and how unique they are. In reality, Goth's are not like 90% of the people who claim they are.

This wasn't a personal rant at you Erana, it was more that I dislike people who try convince people of something based upon a few experiences they have had. Seeing as BonsaiKs' conversation was with you, I thought it'd be better to explain a few things.

If you were a goth you'd be wearing Gothic Clothing. Not all black. Gothic is usually bright Reds as well as black and usually very Eccentric.

Also they listen to music like Evanescance and Within Temptation not System of a down.

You were being an emo. Not a Goth.

Evanescence and Within Temptation are not Goth bans.

Which brings me to another point:

Goth's listen to Goth music, that is the only thing that actually makes them a Goth, not the clothing.

That said, there is nothing which says that Goth's can't listen to non-Goth music. Hell, in Goth nightclubs they play Gabba as well as other music.

*snip*

Let me guess, you don't need any friends nor acceptance into any social groups at all because you are absolutely amazing?

Seriously, the elitism frothing forth from your post is most impressive.

I do love irony.

OT: I guess now I have to explain where I stand on this.

I got interested in the 'Goth' scene in college/6th Form, more out of curiosity and a dislike for normality than anything. I wore a lot of black clothing but beyond that looked pretty 'normal' (no piercings, 'normal' hair colour/style).

I started talking to a Goth girl, she introduced me to a nightclub which, incidentally was the first Goth club created (Goth began in the UK btw), I became a bit more 'involved' in that I started going there regularly and had a lot more gothic clothing. I also found out what Goth music really was.

I never was the type who wore black and white make-up and whatnot when out and about on my daily life. I only looked "really" gothic when I went clubbing. To put it simply, I was hurt badly by the girl and this put me off the Goth culture in a way.

I still wear mostly black, and listen to the music, but have very little involvement with Goth's and the "scene". If you saw me on the street the most of the time you wouldn't look twice.

I only ever considered myself a "Goth" at the beginning when I fist became interested, ironically enough, that was only time when I wasn't really one because the music I listened to then wasn't Goth. I then realised that although I liked the who culture, it made no sense to call myself a Goth because I didn't fit into any niche so to speak.

I think I might create a Goth 101, just to clear things up. Let's see how this thread goes.

 

[LockHeart]

I was just one of those normal-seeming smart kids people viewed with superstition, the Mid-Wales hills echoed with hisses of 'heretic' and 'blasphemy'...

Until I got to 6th form, where I found that there were actually other smart people in my school as well.

 

[Emilie Diabolica]

Because goth culture is 100% superficial, anyone can be one. You just have to adopt any one of the "officially certified gothic appearances" and pretend to like the same music other goths do if you're out at a club or something (it helps if you actually like it, but if you can fake it, that will do). In real terms, anyone can be a "goth" just by dressing up on the weekend, it's actually not that different to cosplay and can be a lot of fun. Girls who are a bit self-conscious about their figure really like it in particular because they get to justify wearing corsets in public. This has its benefits.

Of course, people deep into a gothic subculture tend to have a really snobby attitude and therefore find the idea of "normals" infiltrating their group a bit abhorrent. Part of how goths as a social group operate is by insisting that other people "don't understand what Goth really is", which then allows them to include or exclude whoever they like based on arbitrary rules concerning music, fashion and appearance - items in goth culture which have social value and exist primarily as a mechanism for inclusion/exclusion. This is a social sleight-of-hand because Goth isn't really "about" anything once you dig beneath these social signifiers and that's one of the things that defines it. For example "real goth music" doesn't really exist on any sort of musical level. There is no functional, measurable musical difference between The Cure's "A Forest" period and a lot of other equally maudlin pop music that was being produced at around the same time, but the difference does exist aesthetically (hair, fashion), and also ethnomusicologically, because it is the "tribe of certified goth opinion" which decides what is "real goth music", as opposed to any objective standard which can be measured in musical terms. This can vary from region to region and also depending on who they think is trying to infiltrate the group. In the 80s pop music was close to what was considered goth at the time, so it was the pop fans who were excluded. Nowadays it's metalheads and emos that they don't like, because some metal and emocore is veering towards themes that were once exclusively the domain of goths - tell a group of goths that you like Evanescence or My Chemical Romance and watch their heads spin around like Linda Blair. You would actually get a better reaction from them if you say you like Madonna.

Yes there are exceptions to everything stated above, but I have observed everything that I have written about here first-hand.

Do you actually have any experience with real goths? Sounds like you've just read a few of the 'how to be goth' wikis and decided that was all there is to it.

There are so many different types and styles of Goths that the most accurate way to describe them would be the mindset. No, i'm not going to bang on about being unhappy and perpetually wearing black and the usual bullshit.
Goth, essentially, is the appreciation of the beauty in darkness and a general openmindedness. Real goths are not perpetually mopey. Sure, there's a lot of depressed people who turn to Goth as a refuge, which warps the general image of the gothic subculture. Real goths are'nt afraid to wear colour. Hell, you've surely seen a cybergoth, right? They wear brighter colours than normal people would dare to. I'd continue but cbf...

I'd highly suggest gathering some real experience before you come out with such an ignorant statement as the one above.

Emo people like to pretend to have a shitty enough life to cut themselves

How many real cutters do you know? Not emos 'pretending', as you said, but real cutters. People who hide it, scared of people like you judging them because they have so much SHIT in their lives that they have no other way of coping. I know plenty, and i've witnessed the agony they've gone through. It's people like you who intensify their problems, make them keep hiding it and therefore never get help.

 

[TheLefty]

Emo people like to pretend to have a shitty enough life to cut themselves

How many real cutters do you know? Not emos 'pretending', as you said, but real cutters. People who hide it, scared of people like you judging them because they have so much SHIT in their lives that they have no other way of coping. I know plenty, and i've witnessed the agony they've gone through. It's people like you who intensify their problems, make them keep hiding it and therefore never get help. I hope you're fucking proud of yourself.

That's my point. At least where I live there are no actual "emos". Everyone I know at least who cuts them self just does it because they feel like it. There is one person I know who actually cuts them self even she has admitted to only doing it a few times then thinking "Shit that hurts, why do people do that?". I know I'm speaking from a limited few point but it's what I've been exposed to in my life.

 

[Shadowed Intent]

*snip*

Let me guess, you don't need any friends nor acceptance into any social groups at all because you are absolutely amazing?

Seriously, the elitism frothing forth from your post is most impressive.

I do love irony.

OT: I guess now I have to explain where I stand on this.

I got interested in the 'Goth' scene in college/6th Form, more out of curiosity and a dislike for normality than anything. I wore a lot of black clothing but beyond that looked pretty 'normal' (no piercings, 'normal' hair colour/style).

I started talking to a Goth girl, she introduced me to a nightclub which, incidentally was the first Goth club created (Goth began in the UK btw), I became a bit more 'involved' in that I started going there regularly and had a lot more gothic clothing. I also found out what Goth music really was.

I never was the type who wore black and white make-up and whatnot when out and about on my daily life. I only looked "really" gothic when I went clubbing. To put it simply, I was hurt badly by the girl and this put me off the Goth culture in a way.

I still wear mostly black, and listen to the music, but have very little involvement with Goth's and the "scene". If you saw me on the street the most of the time you wouldn't look twice.

I only ever considered myself a "Goth" at the beginning when I fist became interested, ironically enough, that was only time when I wasn't really one because the music I listened to then wasn't Goth. I then realised that although I liked the who culture, it made no sense to call myself a Goth because I didn't fit into any niche so to speak.

I think I might create a Goth 101, just to clear things up. Let's see how this thread goes.

First up, what exactly was ironic about my post?
second, instead of going to the effort of making a "Goth 101" to put here, I will simply link the FAQ from Goth.Net which pretty much explains everything one needs to know.

http://www.goth.net/faq/index.html

The rest of the site and the forums are also interesting and filled with lovely people.

 

[Legion]

First up, what exactly was ironic about my post?
second, instead of going to the effort of making a "Goth 101" to put here, I will simply link the FAQ from Goth.Net which pretty much explains everything one needs to know.

http://www.goth.net/faq/index.html

The rest of the site and the forums are also interesting and filled with lovely people.

Relax, I was referring to BonsaiK, the fact he claims Goth's are elitist and then makes a post such as the one he did.

I was a member of goth.net for a while actually, I was for reasons unknown banned, I was given 5 warnings in the space of less than a minute (5 needed for band) and the post I supposedly got them from was one I had never posted in so my account was hacked or their server was.

You are putting a lot of faith in members to take the effort of going to another site to read up about it, although the faq on that site is helpful, it is still rather vague.

If this ends up in a flame war then I still believe I shall make one.

"If you want to be a non-conformist, all you have to do is dress like us and listen to the same music we do."

- South Park, Goth Kids

I do love that quote, but all Goth's are aware of the irony in that when it comes to how they are. Although the fact you said Goth "kids" brings me to a point I made earlier. The vast majority of Goth's are adults, most of the kids who think they are either realise what Goth is or grow out of their phase.

 

[AkJay]

"If you want to be a non-conformist, all you have to do is dress like us and listen to the same music we do."

- South Park, Goth Kids

 

[joelmarkel]

listened to dark music

No offense, but how is some music "dark"?

come to think of it i cant remember any of the old bands i listened to aside from system of a down, but pretty much all i listened to was either nirvana or speed metal but at the same time i wasnt a head banger. i was a confused lad.

Wow... dark Goth music would include NIN, Skinny Puppy, Coal Chamber, White Zombie etc.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

its funny cause i just read through all these posts, and apparently theres a regional difference in definition. but anywho, where im from if you wore all black and you werent a preppy kid you were considered a goth. didnt matter if there was an in-between category of emo along with it, you were just a goth. also the group i hung out with werent the excluding type unless you tried to rape someone.

there's not really a regional thing, there is a set definition of what a goth is. you and your friends were emo's if anything. just cause you wear black and listen to "dark" music doesn't make you goth, i know the media liked to claim that but really they were describing emo's

while it's nice that people say they are one thing or another, you really have to look at the broad spectrum of the subculture they are claiming to be a part of. if they don't fit the mold they aren't a part of that subculture

 

[Pimppeter2]

I guess I was/am a jock? I play and love sports, but I also love video games and reading. I hung out mostly with the jock type, but I have friends in almost any "group"

 

[Bored Tomatoe]

I'd be considered by some to be a psuedo-goth... I wear lots of black and dark colors, listen to harsher music than most people I know, and am slightly pessimistic. But then again, I don't really fit the whole "brooding in my room with the lights off" scene.

 

[Erana]

Ughh... No one cares.

No one cares if you were a gothic child in your past... What matters is the present and the future, if that even matters at all.

I could post a long existential rant about the pointlessness of cliques and what-not... But no... In the end, it won't even matter. Hell, I don't even know why I'm posting in this pointless thread... it adds nothing to the completely shallow discussion.

All threads are pointless.
Except maybe that one about catching that pedophile...

Still, I wear a lot of black, and I do have an apreciation for NIN'n such, but by no means am I goth.

Oh if you're a goth you're not actually allowed to like NIN. It's one of the "rules". Seriously.

Goths hate NIN because he is seen as commercialising industrial music and if there's one thing goths look down on it's being popular with people outside of their social clique. Goths are very snobby and like to be an exclusive club wearing their badge of "you don't understand me".

Oh...
Well, that's just silly.

It's also complete bullshit. He is basing his opinion of a 30 year old subculture on a couple of people he met. That's like saying all Emo's cut themselves and all Punks try and bring down society.

Of course, some are like that. You get elitists in any type of group, just look at the Metal threads for examples of that. Christ, you even get it with gamers with the whole 'hardcore' and 'casual' thing.

Most Goth's in reality are completely aware of the fact they dress differently, the attire was in fact a form of mockery of social norms. It's one thing a lot of non-Goths's don't seem to get, Goth's do not take themselves completely seriously. Those that do tend to be the ones looking for social acceptance because they aren't popular, or they grow out of it.

There is also a considerable difference between the UK Goth scene and the US. In the UK there are no "cliques" like in the US, we don't get the "geeks", "preps", "jocks" and so on. Mainly because pretty much every school has uniform so you make friends in the "normal" way a lot more often.

The problem this creates in the US is that people see a bunch of black wearing school kids and think "Goth", the problem there, is that the kids call themselves the same thing because they want to be accepted within a group, just like most kids.

The reality is that the vast majority of Goth's are not of school-age, they are adults. It's because the kids who wear black and listen to Marilyn Manson are considered Goth that so many get elitist about it. They don't want to be associated with a bunch of "depressed" kids who ***** about how nobody understands them and how unique they are. In reality, Goth's are not like 90% of the people who claim they are.

This wasn't a personal rant at you Erana, it was more that I dislike people who try convince people of something based upon a few experiences they have had. Seeing as BonsaiKs' conversation was with you, I thought it'd be better to explain a few things.

Well, that was very informative. Thanks.

 

[axia777]

I've had goth friends and goth exes (great sex, lousy CD collection). Most of them grow out of it once they stop the crying and bed wetting. A pretentious, eletist lot as a whole. Desperate to one up and out-goth each other.

I am so sick and tired of you people blanket judging everyone that is part of the scene in such a way. Most of the people are I knew in the Goth/Industrial scene were really nice people. Some are very anti-social yes, but that has little to nothing to do with them being Goth. Some are elitist, but that also has little to nothing with them being Goth. Those people are just assholes. Crying? Bet wetting? STFU you total asshat.

 

[bjj hero]

I am so sick and tired of you people blanket judging everyone that is part of the scene in such a way. Most of the people are I knew in the Goth/Industrial scene were really nice people. Some are very anti-social yes, but that has little to nothing to do with them being Goth. Some are elitist, but that also has little to nothing with them being Goth. Those people are just assholes. Crying? Bet wetting? STFU you total asshat.

"You people"... Now who's blanket judging?

You did exactly the same as I did. Your judgement is from "most of the people I knew", so its no more or less valid than my opinion. It's great being pretentious and "individual" (just like all of your friends) when you're a teen, crying all the time and writing shit poetry. Most grow out of it after that.

My favourites are the goths who drag it out a little too long, long hair and a bald patch at the back or wear a suit and regular dress monday to Friday then wear the make up and halloween costume on the weekend. Time to give it up.

I'll save the insults and profanity. I feel no need to attack you in return.

 

[bluepilot]

I went through a goth phase which prettymuch involved wearing balck make-up, leather clothes, lot`s more black things.

I was never really into the culture, I just liked getting dressed up in black.

I just spent a lot of money on a real leather jacket laced with fake fur. I can have a cow killed but not a fox or bunny.

 

[Legion]

"You people"... Now who's blanket judging?

I imagine he meant "people like/similar to you", which is not blanket judging, it's showing distaste for people who say insulting things.

You did exactly the same as I did. Your judgement is from "most of the people I knew", so its no more or less valid than my opinion.

The only part of your post I can't disagree with.

It's great being pretentious and "individual" (just like all of your friends) when you're a teen, crying all the time and writing shit poetry. Most grow out of it after that.

Most Goth's are not teens, shows how much you know about it really, you can be thrown into the group of people known as "talk about things they don't know about" now.

The ones like how you describe are not Goth's they are known as 'Spooky Kids' by Goth's in that they try and act like Goth's because they think it is the same way you think it is.

My favourites are the goths who drag it out a little too long, long hair and a bald patch at the back or wear a suit and regular dress monday to Friday then wear the make up and halloween costume on the weekend. Time to give it up.

Some people don't have the luxury of getting the ideal job, Goth's are included I imagine. Not that it would be any of your business how other people choose to dress of course.

I'll save the insults and profanity. I feel no need to attack you in return.

What you really mean, of course, is that you are not going to risk saying something stupid enough to get you reported.