Bayonetta as a role model

[Akihiko]

I've not actually played bayonetta, and I don't really intend to either, not my type of game. So this is coming from more of an outsiders point of view. I think the biggest problem stems from the fan service that they blatently put in. Although I never played the full game, I did play the demo, and I found the opening cutscene to be full of it. Like for example her clothes conveniently getting ripped in places to show off her assets, and many other things. I'm sure Bayonetta probably has a deep personality, you seem to make some really interesting points, and I highly doubt you're lying about any of it. However all of that is just overshadowed by the problem of the fan service. I mean the first people see when they play the same is fan service, we don't get to see any of this deep personality really, other than perhaps her confidence. Which is really a shame if her personality is as deep as you say. They could have easily made the game without all of that, it was hardly necessary(Other than to rake in the money from people who go for that sort of thing). Consequently I think that's why I find it hard to call her a role model, considering how she is often portrayed in the game.

 

[thahat]

... you just made a surprisingly good few points there.
I was about to spout "loltits" but now I have to think about this a bit more. Oh, also, just so you know, feminist females don't generally think themselves better than men, they just want equality.
Good post, though.

/disagree about the femanists
the most of self proclamed feminists think females to be better.
the more normal ones are more equalists, as i think it should be.

 

[Rachel317]

I've not actually played bayonetta, and I don't really intend to either, not my type of game. So this is coming from more of an outsiders point of view. I think the biggest problem stems from the fan service that they blatently put in. Although I never played the full game, I did play the demo, and I found the opening cutscene to be full of it. Like for example her clothes conveniently getting ripped in places to show off her assets, and many other things. I'm sure Bayonetta probably has a deep personality, you seem to make some really interesting points, and I highly doubt you're lying about any of it. However all of that is just overshadowed by the problem of the fan service. I mean the first people see when they play the same is fan service, we don't get to see any of this deep personality really, other than perhaps her confidence. Which is really a shame if her personality is as deep as you say. They could have easily made the game without all of that, it was hardly necessary(Other than to rake in the money from people who go for that sort of thing). Consequently I think that's why I find it hard to call her a role model, considering how she is often portrayed in the game.

Ah, that first cut scene makes me cringe every time! There ARE some things in the game that are unnecessary. At one point, Bayonetta saves someone from being crushed by falling ruins, and as she leaps in the air to save him, he touches her ass. Unnecessary, obviously.

Bayonetta HERSELF isn't particularly sexually OTT. She's presented in that way, for sure, but other than a few suggestive comments directed towards the Angels, her character doesn't actually revolve around sex. In fact, she only references the act of sex ONCE throughout the game. If her character had this sexual element but she was presented in a similar way to modern-day Lara Croft, then maybe people would be able to take her more seriously.
Honestly, take away the sheer quantity of fan service, and she's a decent, well-rounded character. It's just a shame they steeped the game in so much fan service =/

 

[Rachel317]

[

Isn't presentation an important element of character construction? I find that things like framing and shot composition are often meant to convey ideas about the character or a given situation. So I think shes presented sexually over the top, because she is.

No one's denying that she's presented in a sexually OTT way. But it's like...say you're watching a reality TV show, and one person is edited so that they are portrayed in a certain way. This doesn't necessarily mean that they ARE that way, they might be, say...obnoxious for 5 minutes of the day, but this is what's focused on.
Bayonetta as a character isn't THAT OTT when it comes to sexuality, but she IS presented in that way, I don't deny it. She's presented this way for fan service. Take out the clothes flying off and, really, she's not that much more openly sexual than I am. But I'm certainly not a caricature, or sexually OTT, but if something is focused on, then people see it as part of the character...even though it's not, if that makes sense.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

I'm guilty of judging people without getting to know them, but am trying SO hard to change that now. It's unfair, and could be completely inaccurate. A woman in the street, dressed up with loads of make-up..."slut" and trying to get male attention, or she just enjoys dressing like that? My first reaction will, from now on, be the latter, until proven otherwise.

Good for you.

A tip that might help: embrace the fact that it isn't really necesary to always form an opinion or idea about everything around you, and it is especially not necessary when it is about things that you don't know much about or have no real inclination to learn anything about.

Consider the humans of the stone-age when they first heard thunder and saw lightning in the sky. They didn't know too much about the sky back then (other than it was up there), nor that lightning occurs due to the interaction between protons and electrons generating static electricity due to hot air rising rapidly to meet cold air etc. etc.

But the events were pretty impressive and noticeable. But since they couldn't really know what caused it, their imagination had to invent images of angry godlike beings slamming the sky with great big hammers, which of course lead to centuries of misconceptions and misunderstandings about the nature of... well, nature.

And if you think about it, did they NEED to know what caused lightning back then? Would the abscence of knowledge about the exact cause of it really interfere with their hunter/gatherer way of life? Probably not too much... you know, unless they got zapped by lightning because they stood alone out in a field somewhere and thus making them the highest point for the lightning to discharge through. But that's statistically unfeasible.

And it's the same thing about judging other people. It's not really that important to actually form an opinion about whether a total stranger is a promiscuous slut or if she just happens to like dressing in slutty-looking outfits, or if she just have an extremely onorthodox sense of taste.

It's not very likely to affect your daily life if you know the real reason or not. And since that fact probably won't serve to actually make you try and FIND the real reason for her outfit, then it's pretty redundant to form an opinion on the matter at all.

I gotta warn you though. There is an inherent risk that people will find you to be terribly phlegmatic and disconnected from your surroundings if you take this philosophy to extreme levels. Then again, it occasionally present some fine opportunities to yank their chains about it, haha. XD

Of course, not everyone will get on with everyone else. I find this kind of double standard rubbish highly annoying. It would be more productive, in my opinion, to, yes, mediate the situation, but tell them to be CIVIL as opposed to friends.
Making a child think they should be friends with everyone is going to set them up for damage and obstacles in the future.

Exactly. You might not like a person for a wide variety of reasons, some of them more justifiable than others. But you respect the fucking law when it comes to interacting with said individuals.

That doesn't mean that I think you have to be polite to others or refraining from stating your opinions about them. But when it comes to bullying and harassment we're not talking about calling eachother "dicktits" occasionally or something like that, but more about actual physical violence, purposeful sabotage and destruction of property, disruption of schoolwork, entrapment and stuff like that. That's unacceptable behaviour, and it should be fought and stigmatized by each and every figure of authority.

But, really, the only way to make a big impact would be for the media (in all of its forms) to stop preaching their rubbish. In the magazines, how often have you seen a picture of a celebrity looking not-so-good, and the writer has torn them to pieces over it? We get it often in the newspapers especially, "Rating" celebrity bodies. How is that fair? And, surely, this is giving the impression to all men and women that someone is ALWAYS judging you, so you MUST match the media's view of what "perfection" or "attractiveness" is?

Well, what I do is treating the media as the sensationalist bullshit that it is. What's bad is that even journalist of previously respectable newspapers have turned them into tabloid trash. So I don't really make much distinction between so called "respectable journalist" and scumsucking tabloid papparazzi douchebags.

I don't need their opinions about anything (especially not about something so extremely unimportant and ridiculous as the looks of celebrities bodies, since celebrities are for the most part total nobodies to me as is pretty much everyone else), and if I happen to crash into people who treat it as the most important thing on earth they usually get a taste of my vitriol.

And now some people might think that im a complete asshole for doing that. But you can't deny that by taking interest in crap media that doesn't serve to further anything besides giving more profits to the scumsucking assholes who keep that kind of shit going, then you DO deserve to get criticized for it. You are, after all, giving attention, support and silent consent to one of the most redundant and shitslinging industries in the world by doing so while letting your intelligence rot in the process.

Was there not much trouble with inequality BEFORE the feminist ideals really took hold?
It's extremely unfair that women should be given an easier ride, both career and academic-wise. Surely this only sends the message that women can only out-achieve men by being given help? I'm sure that's NOT what feminism is all about.

Well, during the period when feminist ideals started to pop up, Sweden was becoming pretty influenced by socialist ideals quite a lot. The thing about socialism is that it dislikes keeping traditional social classes around, equality being the big thing and all that. So it's not really a very far leap in logic to conclude that gender equality is the most socialist way to go.

After all, you can't really keep up a regime where "brothers are supposed to be equal" and all that crap while at the same time keeping all women down and reducing them to baby-producers and homemakers.

It's an interesting development actually. Tax-paying women recieved restricted rights to vote in Sweden as early as during the 1700's (however, this regarded primarily unmarried women part of certain guilds), so it wasn't a case of "free-for-all" voting, and Sweden was also still a monarchy at the time so you can't really call it true democracy. Then in 1771 the women suffrage was abolished through a new constitution. (but once again, we're not exactly talking about a true democratic government back then, so one can't really claim that men overall had more electorial power than women did on a national level)

It wasn't until the late 1800's that the propositions for women to vote in national elections came up, and it was rejected by parliament twice during to different occasions. But by 1919 it came through (probably much due to the rise of socialist ideals as well as the suffrage movement that formed in Sweden by 1902)

But ever since then, womens right to vote hasn't ever really been threatened in any way. And womens rights overall as just been steadily been rising without any particular opposition to the unbalanced level that it is now.

As someone else in the thread said, the genders CAN'T be equal, because we have different make-up, genetics, strengths and weaknesses. Equality will come when EVERYONE realises that there are some things that men just CAN do better than women, and vice versa.

Exactly.

And if you think about it, if we'd actually do what the feminists demand i.e try to eliminate perfectly NATURAL differences or give women handicap-priviliges at the expense of quality, then women should have to do something in return don't you think?

I mean, if women are supposed to be permitted to work in areas despite the fact that their natural genetic make-up make them provenly inferior at their tasks statistically, then why should it be excluded to compensate men who suffer from injustice in society becayse they are somehow genetically inferior?

Take the sex-drive for instance. When your bloodstream is pumped full of testosterone at high levels like the male genetic make-up gives rise to overall, it tends to make you pretty goddamned horny.

Yet if you look at the western dating scene, far from all men get to have sex with the women they want to have sex with. For the most part, the exchange of sex is really a "sellers market", and a significant majority of the men are exclusively buyers, not sellers.

So if this can be traced back to genetic factors (like how your genetic make-up affects the way you look, smell, sound like etc.), you know, in exactly the same way most women tend to be inferior when it comes to certain jobs (like being fire-fighters), and it's no secret that it is a significant problem since it is a leading cause in male depression to be rejected sexually (again due to their genetic make-up) and suffering from involuntary celibacy, then shouldn't women collectively have an obligation to simply "put out more"?

You can't have rights without responsibilities after all.

But you can imagine the typical femi-nazi response to such a proposition. "What? Are you crazy!? Are women supposed to be FORCED to have sex with men they aren't attracted to jsut because said men don't get enougn sex? You pig!!"

Now, im not really serious about proposing to force women to have sex with men they don't really want to have sex with. But I think it serves to illustrate a pretty good example of rights and responsibilities, as well as the hypocrisy surrounding many of the "problems" of society and the feminist view of it.

You and I probably both agree that the elimination of irrational and unfair treatment of women and men doesn't have a place ina society calling itself pro-gender equality. But when it comes to aspects that can be directly traced back to genetic factors, everyone simply have to accept the fact that nature is nature. And unless we're willing to start dabbling in fields of genetic manipulation (something which im actually for rather than against since I think that science shouldn't be constrained by irrational arguments, but that's beside the point since most of society seem to be against such fields of science), then we're just going to have to settle with the fact that men tend to naturally make better fire-fighters, police officers, soldiers, construction workers and other physically demanding jobs and that there is no real sign of gender inequality just because these fields are largely male dominated.

But good luck trying to convince your average Swedish feminist of that.

And the Muslim thing...I must say, I think that's a problem in every country. In the UK, there's already talk about allowing Shariah Law alongside our own judicial system. Certain areas of society are "untouchable", so no negative comments can be made about them, even if said comment is wholly justified.

Oh it's starting to pop up propositions of Sharia law over here too. I mean really, we have weak willed politicians ruling the western world and they are too damned politically correct to ever show any real outrage to the very notion that some ethnic groups are supposed to let themselves be treated a little differently in legal matters.

Whatever happened to the law is blind and that we are all equal under it? Now you want to let immigrants make up their own little enclaves and get to decide everything according to their own laws?

Im not afraid to be called a racist bigot, so I'll gladly say that if these people want their fucking Sharia Laws then they can go back to the countries they came from. And I also question WHY they even want Sharia Laws, since the countries they came from were largely ruled by them, and if those countries were so terribly bad that they decided to move to a democratic western country, then WHY ON EARTH would they want to institutionalize the same bullshit over here?

It might be radical, but I think that the government should consider the people who push for such drastic changes in our legal systems to be considered enemies of the state. Then again, im the kind of person who consider religious freedom to be highly overrated and a direct cause of more problems than what you get back from it.

If religious freedom cause people to want to fuck around with law, then it is a choice between religion and law. And in my opinion, religion is the one that has to go.

Sharia Law is what gets women in Iran stoned to death for defending themselves against abusive husbands or committing adultery. The idea of institutionalizing it here should never even be entertained, regardless of pressure from some muslim groups in exactly the same manner that people in general aren't supposed to be forced to abide by Christian laws or Jewish laws.

...what? You ARE kidding, right? Of COURSE prostitution is free-will! Even if you find yourself in the poorest of situations, there is help out there. Prostitution isn't even a last resort, you literally DO NOT have to do it.
I could understand if, perhaps, the woman had fallen in with a bad crowd and was FORCED to become a prostitute, but...this doesn't mean that ALL men are bad, and that ALL men are to blame!

Well, let's put it this way, according to Swedish law it is illegal for anyone to BUY sexual favours. But it isn't illegal to sell them.

Meaning that if you're caught with a prostitute that you've paid, you get punished. But the prostitute hasn't done anything wrong.

And since the large majority of active prostitutes are made up of women and not men statistically speaking, I think you can figure it out yourself exactly what kind of view of prostitution that is prevalent in the forums that matter and govern this fucking country.

Also on a side-note: isn't it interesting that shooting pornography is perfectly legal in a lot of western countries while prostitution isn't, despite the fact that both actors and actresses get paid for... you know, having sex?

I'd say obvious hypocrisy is obvious to that. But that's just me. XD

Why SHOULDN'T women take on the assassin roles, though? We have Sam Fisher...why not a female equivalent? It's sexist to NOT include a female assassin (because, as they are created, they CAN have the exact same strength etc as their male counterparts), yet also sexist to assume that women can ONLY be assassin characters! It's such a fine, totally-obscured line.

Yes of course. My point is that female assassins are somewhat of a stereotypical cliché in most games and movies. I mean if we're talking mean characters who kill people or monsters for a living, then think about it; how many female characters are usually the gruff heavy weapons specialist lugging around some barking machine-gun? (Vasquez from James Cameron's "Aliens", being a brilliant exception to the rule) How many female characters do you see run around with a sniper rifle saying "boom! headhshot!" as they pick off enemies from afar? How many female characters do you se act as your average footslooging trooper with just an assault rifle, a lit cigarette butt in their mouth and an overall mean outlook on life? Competent military leaders and officers?

It's not too common. But when it comes to revealing leotard or catsuit clad assassins with a preference for ninja-esque swords, throwing knives and karate-gimmicks, the market shows signs of a proliferation of them, wouldn't you agree?

Good. Women don't NEED to be stereotypically feminine to show that they're feminine. Obviously, Luger and Bayonetta are EXACT opposites, but they present the two sides of the same coin.
Just the same, men don't need to be barrel-chested with rippling, muscular bodies to show that they are masculine. It's just easier to present this kind of cliche character in a game than go into all sorts of metaphors and symbolism. Hell, I don't doubt that the creators of Bayonetta probably didn't intend for her to necessarily be anything more than "eye candy", but more CAN be seen of her if you wish to look for it.

Well, in Luger's case I'd say it's the voice. If you just look at the visuals she could just as well be a scrawny or somewhat effeminate man. But the voice actress does this throaty and womanly voice with a british accent so there's not really a question about gender.

Found a clip so you can listen and see for yourself if you like:

So...we basically have a female character who isn't an Ice Queen and isn't a Damsel in Distress...oh my, she's actually a middle ground character?! Incredible. I haven't played it, but it sounds like the developers did a good job with her character; yes, she has abilities not TYPICALLY associated with women ("You throw like a girl", etc etc), yet...she also DOES have feminine qualities. Sounds like the kind of character we're striving for!

Well a bit on the Ice Queen side perhaps. Then again I don't find her any more "icy" than any other person would be who does military black ops. I mean if you're trained for and have killed several people with a knife up close and watched them bleed to death gasping through a sliced up windpipe then that probably affects your personality to become more of the pragmatic, to the point and disconnected kind.

But I don't think it's too icy, or too much "icy for the sake of being icy" over-the-topness either.

 

[Decabo]

I disagree. The way Bayonetta acts isn't immediately justified as tasteful simply because it's not done in front of children. And besides, doesn't Bayonetta do that "Have you been cheating on me darling?" taunt to an angel right in front of Cereza, right before she beats the shit out of it? Now that line isn't particularly dirty, but it's not something I can see, say, a female police officer saying. You can say I'm taking it to literally, and let me clarify that I think Bayonetta is awesome, probably one of my top 5 games of the year. But the defense that it's done ironically doesn't change what's actually happening: she gets naked to do powerful moves, says flirtatious dominatrix lines to opponents, and uses giant weapons like stripper poles.

To be fair, at that point in the game, Bayonetta doesn't realise that Cereza can see her in Purgatorio from the human world.

That's besides the point, however. I DO see what you're saying, but...other than the clothes flying off and the suggestive comments towards the angels, Bayonetta's not PARTICULARLY sexual. Not when you really think about it. The cut scenes are largely centred around character interaction, and only ONCE is the act of sex actually mentioned.

"Character interaction" is a pretty broad term, and isn't necessarily void of sexuality. Character interaction could be the discussion between Luka and Bayonetta when Luka accuses her of killing his father... and Bayonetta calls him "her little Chesure puss" or something. To be fair, I appreciate the fact that actual sex isn't brought up constantly and pointlessly, (I'm looking at you, GTA: Chinatown Wars) but I still think Bayonetta is made incredibly sexual. In addition to the clothes coming off and the stripper poles, she has ludicrously long legs, has multiple BDSM torture techniques, (Such as fatal spanking)her lock-on indicator is puckered lips, and she destroys a barrier by blowing a kiss. And that's not even including the subtler attributes of hers that are more along the lines of fetishistic, such as sucking on lollipops, (And if you don't think that was meant to be sexy, check the GTA IV cover)looking like a sexy librarian, and always being in high heels. And yes, I realize her "heels" are guns, but it has the same effect: making Bayonetta's butt and hips look as good as they can. In terms of making the game feel fresh and fun, this gets the job done, but in terms of making her more of a role model, I think it takes a step back. I just don't see what lessons there are to gain from her. You could argue that it teaches girls to be independent, but really, do we still need that nowadays? I think in a world where many countries are run by women, (Australia, Canada, Argentina to name a few) as well as an industry with heroines like Samus and Lara Croft, that isn't really necessary.

 

[Judgement101]

The main selling point of that game was the sexuality, therefore I have no respect for the game or the character herself.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

The main selling point of that game was the sexuality, therefore I have no respect for the game or the character herself.

It seems to me the game was advertised as an action game. Here's the TGS 2009 trailer:

There's nothing overly sexual in the trailer, and the trailer is obviously advertising the action above all else. What actually got me excited for the game was that it was witches vs angels and that the angels were the bad guys. I love when stuff gets flipped around like that kinda like how Firefly is more of a Western than Sci-fi. I never got into the DMC series because demon killing just has never interested me in any medium. I was immediately interested in Bayonetta because I always thought you can do some cool things with the whole witch mythology that isn't the standard flying on brooms and cooking stuff in cauldrons. On top of all that, the creator behind Bayonetta made DMC so you know the gameplay is going to be top-notch, and it did not disappoint. Dodge offsetting alone is reason to buy the game, a huge innovation in the beat'em up (hack n' slash) genre IMO.

I definitely enjoyed Bayonetta's looks, I'd by lying if I said I didn't. But it's not the reason I wanted to play the game, and if hot main characters sell games, then I would've bought X-Blades. I actually started playing the game again because of this topic because the game is just so awesome. Bayonetta is not THAT overly sexual in the game, she's actually more sexual toward the angels (which don't seem like they have any interest with getting with her) than the actual characters. Yeah, Bayonetta's clothes are her hair and she uses her hair to summon demons; obviously, that's going to be sexual but at the same time I think it was a genius idea regardless. I really bought into Bayonetta as a character and the universe the game created with the witches vs angels (well, lumen sages). And, if you are going to make a stylized action game or movie with a women that is attractive, it's going to be sexy in my opinion because I think women that can kick ass are hot. It's probably the same way for action movies starring guys for women, I would think the guys in action movies come off as hot to women.

 

[Rachel317]

What actually got me excited for the game was that it was witches vs angels and that the angels were the bad guys. I love when stuff gets flipped around like that

It WAS an excellent idea. I don't think it's a case of "Good vs Evil", unless you count the last Lumen Sage (don't want to name any names) as "evil"...which I think he is. Otherwise, Bayonetta and the Angels were just doing jobs, really.

I was immediately interested in Bayonetta because I always thought you can do some cool things with the whole witch mythology that isn't the standard flying on brooms and cooking stuff in cauldrons. On top of all that, the creator behind Bayonetta made DMC so you know the gameplay is going to be top-notch, and it did not disappoint. Dodge offsetting alone is reason to buy the game, a huge innovation in the beat'em up (hack n' slash) genre IMO.[/quote]

AND...you know, you see things in the cut scenes that you CAN do in-game. It's not like DMC where could only do a set list. Bayonetta must have...almost 100 moves or something!
But they definitely did a fantastic job in turning the "witch" thing on it's head.

I definitely enjoyed Bayonetta's looks, I'd by lying if I said I didn't. But it's not the reason I wanted to play the game, and if hot main characters sell games, then I would've bought X-Blades. I actually started playing the game again because of this topic because the game is just so awesome.

And X-Blades was a huge pile of rubbish. It shows, they went all out on the sexual side, but gave no REAL thought to content which, in my opinion, was far worse than not having a sexy lead character.
Also, glad you're back playing Bayonetta!

Bayonetta is not THAT overly sexual in the game, she's actually more sexual toward the angels (which don't seem like they have any interest with getting with her) than the actual characters. Yeah, Bayonetta's clothes are her hair and she uses her hair to summon demons; obviously, that's going to be sexual but at the same time I think it was a genius idea regardless.

This is exactly my point. The sexuality towards the Angels is more taunting than actually flirtatious. The "have you been cheating on me?" before smacking him into the wall was just...absolutely classic.
Like, when she's naked near the start, and the big Beloved tries to grab her, and she slaps his hand away. I laugh every time, because it's so tongue in cheek. I can't really understand how she could "excite" anyone, because they hardly focus the camera on her for long, and all you see is a little bit of bum *shrugs*
If that's the case, then young boys should probably just walk past any building site, to get the same effect.

"Character interaction" is a pretty broad term, and isn't necessarily void of sexuality. Character interaction could be the discussion between Luka and Bayonetta when Luka accuses her of killing his father... and Bayonetta calls him "her little Chesure puss" or something. To be fair, I appreciate the fact that actual sex isn't brought up constantly and pointlessly, (I'm looking at you, GTA: Chinatown Wars) but I still think Bayonetta is made incredibly sexual. In addition to the clothes coming off and the stripper poles, she has ludicrously long legs, has multiple BDSM torture techniques, (Such as fatal spanking)her lock-on indicator is puckered lips, and she destroys a barrier by blowing a kiss. And that's not even including the subtler attributes of hers that are more along the lines of fetishistic, such as sucking on lollipops, (And if you don't think that was meant to be sexy, check the GTA IV cover)looking like a sexy librarian, and always being in high heels. And yes, I realize her "heels" are guns, but it has the same effect: making Bayonetta's butt and hips look as good as they can. In terms of making the game feel fresh and fun, this gets the job done, but in terms of making her more of a role model, I think it takes a step back. I just don't see what lessons there are to gain from her. You could argue that it teaches girls to be independent, but really, do we still need that nowadays? I think in a world where many countries are run by women, (Australia, Canada, Argentina to name a few) as well as an industry with heroines like Samus and Lara Croft, that isn't really necessary.

Hey, you're well within your rights to disagree.
The "Cheshire puss" IS because she had a toy cat named Cheshire though (remember, Cereza's doll that Bayonetta bandages up?), so it's more an affectionate name. However...I don't really understand how you could get sexual connotation from "Cheshire" or "Cheshire puss"?

The long legs...well, EVERY character has long legs (even Luka and Rodin), so it's obviously meant to be set in a time where that is the normal look. However, there ARE women with legs like Bayonetta's (lucky them!), but the designer (Shimiraki or something?) didn't WANT to make yet another woman with normal proportions, as she said in an interview.

The BDSM torture...yes, but only when fighting a Joy. And even then, you can make of THAT device what you will.

Fatal spanking...sorry, I don't recall this in-game? I apologise if it IS in there, but I honestly don't remember it.

The lock-on target is, in my opinion, more girly than anything. It differentiates itself from other lock-on targets because it's something only attributed with women. You don't see pucked up lips in GoW...we may differ on this, but I find it distinctly feminine.

The lolli-pops...come on! How ridiculously, amusingly small are they? If they wanted to suggest oral sex, they'd have made them as big as the one used in GTA, to make the males feel like "big men". They're ludicrously small, to suggest that "Hell, you think you're man enough for me? I don't think so".

And you'd be surprised as to the extent that women are still oppressed. Not in any significant way really, but how many women in power have you seen and think, "She must have fucked her way there"? I hear that ALL the time, and it's so unfair.
Or, how many times have you seen a woman out and about, dressed in a "flirtatious" manner, and assumed she must be a "slut", or is seeking male attention? Contrast that with the number of times you've thought, "Wow, she's really confident, she must be really comfortable dressed like that". If you're being honest, I bet the former is closest to the truth.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

writers are afraid if they have a female character show any weakness ever, they'll be labelled as sexist.

Excellent point! Why should character flaws be seen as sexism? Women have weaknesses that men don't have, men have weaknesses that women don't have. These shouldn't be shied away from, but embraced.

Fantastic point. Why do we continue to try to hide the obvious? We seem to be afraid to confront these weaknesses so we throw up barriers (legally or otherwise) to discourage it.

As for the OP, beyond the obvious "She has the perfect body so she's setting unfair expectations and blah, blah blah"; I agree that Bayonetta is a fine rolemodel[footnote]Also taking the whole "Killing things" out of the equation.[/footnote].

Good post sir madam. I have nothing else to add.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

What actually got me excited for the game was that it was witches vs angels and that the angels were the bad guys. I love when stuff gets flipped around like that

It WAS an excellent idea. I don't think it's a case of "Good vs Evil", unless you count the last Lumen Sage (don't want to name any names) as "evil"...which I think he is. Otherwise, Bayonetta and the Angels were just doing jobs, really.

I was mainly referring to how the game looked before it came out; Bayonetta, the witch, seemed like she was indeed the good character yet she was fighting angels. So, I was thinking angels = bad, witches = good before I played the game.

Spoiler

The game ended up mainly being about a balance of power between the demons and angels who both had their own god. Neither side was good or bad. The last Lumen Sage tried unite all three worlds under his control.

Fatal spanking...sorry, I don't recall this in-game? I apologise if it IS in there, but I honestly don't remember it.

I believe you can spank with the pistols (Scarborough Fair). I don't know what the name of the moves are but certain moves let you build up magic much faster. For example, you can use the whip to grab an enemy you hit into the air and then you can smack him down on the ground a few times (I believe punch, punch, kick, punch (puts him in air), punch to grab with whip). The katana allows you to stab down on a stunned enemy several times (punch, punch, punch, kick, kick (he's on the ground and stunned), then mash the punch button). I believe the pistols will spank the enemy using the same combo as the katana (PPPKK-P). These moves allow you to build up magic quite a bit faster, and I don't think every weapon has one of these moves. I beat the game on NSIC and pulling off these moves is a huge help as you can do a lot more torture attacks. And, purple butterflies are the BEST accessory, which use magic so you need as much magic as possible.

 

[Rachel317]

*Highly Impressed* ..Wow, I mean I had seen people become very passionate about their Role Model but...you have hit the highest peek of being "True" to your morals. Congrats, no sarcasm this is literally surprising and I read it all...

That was the most outstanding part. Looking past her sexuality of an appearance, body proud, human figure, and even overcoming situations. The reason being is that she fights for what she feels is right even if it's conflicted as "Evil" in some ideal.

Another thing I admire so much about her besides knowing you're highly inspired by her (Which is a really good thing) is that she doesn't tend to act weak nor just mere lustful...she actually makes a new meaning to "Hardcore" or perhaps "She is underestimated, show them your true qualities" ...Indeed I am very proud of your Thread. Never have I gazed on someone being so focused on everything positive about their character besides the Obvious and when I state that I mean (No offense) what guys Notice... Great work! ^_^

Thank you! I've had people say they agree, but never this level of praise
I think it could be easier for me to see past the sexuality, because of being a woman, so the sexual stuff isn't marketed at me so much. I'm not saying that all guys CAN'T see past the sexual stuff, however (you have, for being able to see what I'm getting at!).

I'm not one of those women who is jealous of someone who is prettier than me, or more intelligent, I will give praise where praise is due. It could be questionable, seen as how Bayonetta is a fictional character, but I personally believe that there's more to her than the sexual way in which she's presented. As I've said, sexuality surrounds her, in the way the developers have made her clothes fly off for super-powered attacks, but her personality itself doesn't revolve around sex.
But yes, you're right, shes not particularly "lustful". She references sex ONCE in a relatively innocent way, and the love interest sideline story isn't presented in a sexual way, just rather tender and affectionately.

So, again, thank you for your contribution, Ryan!

I was mainly referring to how the game looked before it came out; Bayonetta, the witch, seemed like she was indeed the good character yet she was fighting angels. So, I was thinking angels = bad, witches = good before I played the game.

I know, I know. The angels really ARE bad guys, especially the Lumen Sages. I mean, instigating the witch hunts...of course they're the bad guys! Dante did demons, it was obviously time for a switch around. I thought there'd be a big morality debate, as in people not wanting to kill angels, but they handled it really well, and it never really felt like Bay WAS a bad guy, or that the Angels were only good guys at the mercy of the bad guy. It was a nice switch around, for sure. I didn't mean it to sound like I was contradicting you, I thought it was great to see a non-stereotypically good vs evil game.

Spoiler

To be fair, Balder was a bit of a tyrant. He killed Luka's father for not agreeing with "my philosophies" or way of doing things or something, he instigated the witch hunts which wiped the Umbra Witches out so that he could preserve the Left Eye...the angels themselves were doing a job, Balder WAS evil. Not even misunderstood, oh I'm doing things for the greater good. Instigating the witch hunts wiped out one side of the balance, so the whole thing was his fault so that he could create a world in his own vision. Bearing in mind that Bayonetta was unconscious by that point, so he would have been on his own to run things (we don't have any idea how long Bayonetta might have been out for.

 

[Decabo]

In response to Rachel: (For some reason when I hate Quote, it did it oddly, so I'm just doing it this way.)

And you, of course, are free to disagree as well.
Perhaps you and I just take comments differently, but I take a woman calling a man her little Cheshire puss in a suggestive fashion to be rather flirtatious. Maybe that's just me.

Wait, you're saying there's TOO many women with normal proportions? I was under the impression that too many women were given big boobs and perfect butts in video games. Even ones that're considered strong women, like Lara Croft and Samus. (When she's in her Zero Suit) But I find it hard to believe that she was given long legs for any reason other than to look sexy, which isn't a bad thing in itself, but when you're talking about making her a feminist icon, being sexy is on the bottom of the list of attributes they need. Long legs are one of the most important features for models, you can't even become one unless you're around 5'7", or at least that's what my sister was told. But even by those standards Bayonetta's legs are of bizarre proportion, and I have a hard time seeing how that wasn't done to sexualize her.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the Joy battle. Man, that final move was really something.

Fatal spanking, besides the first cutscene, is in the game as a punish attack. I encountered it many times, she'd say something sexual like "You've been naughty" and then spank them to death. Here's a video of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbgTYm_DuM0&feature=related

There's no denying it's feminine, but it's what lips do that made them the selection. It's not something I can see a less sexually charged female using, like Samus. It's not a huge deal, and it's better than the lock-on being, say, a breast, like it is in Saint's Row, but there's no denying the sexuality of puckered lips. In GTA IV, the strip club is represented by lips.

I know it's weird, and it's not really something I understand, but there's much sexuality built around women sucking on lollipops, and I'm sure the developers are aware of this. And the one on GTA IV's cover is the same size as Bayonetta's. Just out of curiosity, I looked for girls sucking lollipops on Youtube, and there was a whole lot of stuff. Now I think they didn't choose something bigger like a banana because they didn't want it to be too blatant, but you'll have to take my word for it that sucking on lollipops is suggestive. I don't really get it, but then again there's a lot of dumb fetishes I don't understand.

I certainly don't think that the oppression of women has completely disappeared, but I guess we hang out with different people, because I don't hear the "She must've had sex with someone to get in that position" stuff, and certainly don't think it, myself. But while things like equal pay for women are things we still need to get, I think the "Well she's not a damsel in distress so she's a good role model" line is losing its effect. I remember Quentin Tarantino used that exact reasoning for why little girls should go see the Kill Bill movies. I think the state we're in now is that while there are still a lot of sexists in the world who unfairly chock up a woman's success to banging someone, we've gotten to the point where just about all women know they can do anything a man can do. (Unless her parents are Mormons or Muslims) There's more women than men in college nowadays, and Hillary Clinton was close to being president. (I guess so was Palin, but I'd rather not mention her) I think another independent heroine isn't really necessary teaching this, especially one like Bayonetta who, despite being an awesome character, isn't really the way I think little girls should act, or teenagers for that matter. I have no problem with sexuality, but when it comes to being a role model or feminist icon, Bayonetta is rather low on my list.

 

[Acting like a FOOL]

I believe in gender equality but I fight some of the tenants of feminism that function on double standards.

we can't meet gender neutrality when all of the social reform works for only one side of the issue.

 

[Moooo4me]

You make good points and I agree with your perspective :] especially the part about one gender not being superior to the other.

and yes she is very sexy XP

 

[Nomanslander]

I don't know, when it comes to role models I'm not keen to kids looking up to the self indulgent vapid types. This and the last generation has had way to many of those already from today's media, both for boys and girls.

Bayonetta was a comical character at best, delving into the fancy of four eyed hot librarian chicks and how they might dress (all leathered and spandex-ed up) and act behind close doors (the notion of them being total freaks, in a good way that is).

Or another words, she's yet again another objectified example of what guys fancy in women. So if you still want to take her as a rolemodel, at least do it in parts.

....

Besides being an objectified example, like I said before, she also reflect the worst qualities in being a role model, and let me explain why:

Growing up myself, most of the supposed role models for me at the time were celebrities in the music and film industry. The music industry at the time was predominately filled with bitter grunge musicians and overly aggressive and misogynistic rap stars. They were the vapid self indulgent types that tried to teach me being an asshole or an angsty prick was cool.

Yes, those were the role models of my Generations, and still till this day I haven't been able to deprogram all the shit they taught me. The shit they taught us.

(Ever notice how most Gen-X tend to be loners, socially inept, bitter, and misogynistic/misandric? Well, our role models at the time are partially to blame.)

The way I see it, a role model needs to show some level of compassion and conviction towards who they are and what they do. Sass and attitude is something to expect from teenagers, but it's the type of stuff you want to grow out of and fast when you reach your 20s.

Bayonetta just doesn't seem to have any other qualities beyond all the sass and attitude that she's been purposely build up with to reach teenagers.

 

[Rachel317]

-snip-

No problem, I got the email with the quotes in it, so I know what you're referring to.

Hmm...you see, you see "Cheshire puss" as flirty, I see it as an affectionate, if not taunting nickname. Obviously we'll have to agree to disagree on that one!

No no, I'M not saying there are too many women with natural proportions, the lead designer did. But you look at Samus, Trip (from Enslaved), Lara Croft (minus the large breasts, obviously; they HAVE reduced her breasts for the game coming out this year, which is a good sign!), they're all normal. Obviously, the designer wanted something...very not-normal.

Well...if the leg proportions ARE bizarre, than how could they be sexualized? I'm not disagreeing with you, there wasn't REALLY a need for long legs (unless they just REALLY wanted to go out of their way in creating Bayonetta), but if they're not particularly sexy...?
As per your point about being less sexy, I don't see why a woman who is sexy CAN'T be a role model. Surely we're meant to look past the physical appearance to the character underneath?
I mean...that's like saying that only women who look like Germaine Greer can be role models; she's not particularly attractive, but I find her personality absolutely revolting. She's a supposed feminist yet claims to be an "adulteress". Well...how can you be all for women, if you're willing to hurt them?

Sorry your sister has had problems becoming a model, by the way (from the sounds of it)! If she's really set on modelling, I'd suggest she look into some more non-mainstream agencies, because I find it disgusting that one group of people gets to decide what is "acceptable" and what is not. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Haha, the Joy finishing attack is...bizarre. Hilarious, but bizarre. Although the bouncing breasts are an obvious thing, I love the bored look on Bayonetta's face. Perhaps it's the more subtle things which suggest that she's not necessarily sexually OTT...?

Girls sucking lollipops, I can KIND of see the attraction...although it's a weird one.
Seriously though, the GTA lolly, in my opinion, is quite a bit larger than Bayonetta's; isn't that woman supposed to be one of the strippers/hookers? I agree, the lollipop thing DOES relate to sex and sexuality, but I kind of see it in the opposite way to normal; The large lollies are meant to make a guy feel like a "big man", right? Because she's simulating oral sex with a large object, which is meant to be the penis. The hooker thing is a big part of GTA, so it stands to reason it would be about oral sex. Bayonetta sucks on tiny little things, and because her CHARACTER (not the way she's presented, mind) isn't particularly sexual, I see it more as a "Ha, I laugh at your normal-sized penis! Only a power-drill could satisfy me!" kind of thing. If that makes sense...

Yes, let's not talk about Sarah Palin...that can be left well enough alone!
Bearing in mind, there was a lot of talk about Hillary Clinton and the "OMG!!! First woman president EVER!!!!1111oneoneoneone", as though it was this massive thing. If it ISN'T a big deal, then surely the talk should have been, "Never mind that the two front runners are a woman and a black man, how good are their propositions, and how well will they do in Office?"

Oh, also! That fatal spanking thing is absolutely hilarious. Thanks for the video! I use the other weapons (as opposed to the Scarborough Fairs in the hand) so I hadn't seen those. I also think the Panther Punt and the big spike wheel that she kicks are fantastic Torture Attacks

 

[Eternal_Lament]

Good points. Your argument reminds me of Movie Bob, because he pretty much had all those things to say as well (in case you're curious, his video on this can be found on his Game Overthinker blog). He also touched on a point that I always found to be the case, yet everyone seems to forget. Proportions.

It goes without saying that one of the first things people notice about Bayonetta are her legs, mainly about how long they are. However, if one were to look cqrefully, they'd find that those legs are actually normal. For one thing, if someone were to look at the rest of Bayonetta, they'd notice that she, while indeed fit, is carrying some weight both in her chest and her ass, weight that would require someone to have legs that long in order to support the rest of her body. Also, while her legs would indeed seem freaishly long if she was the normal height for females (5'7-5'10), if one looked at her body (mainly her height) when she is around other enemies or characters, it becomes apparent that she is actually a lot taller than the normal height for females, a height that at that point would also require long legs in order to support herself.

 

[Rachel317]

Good points. Your argument reminds me of Movie Bob, because he pretty much had all those things to say as well (in case you're curious, his video on this can be found on his Game Overthinker blog). He also touched on a point that I always found to be the case, yet everyone seems to forget. Proportions.

It goes without saying that one of the first things people notice about Bayonetta are her legs, mainly about how long they are. However, if one were to look cqrefully, they'd find that those legs are actually normal. For one thing, if someone were to look at the rest of Bayonetta, they'd notice that she, while indeed fit, is carrying some weight both in her chest and her ass, weight that would require someone to have legs that long in order to support the rest of her body. Also, while her legs would indeed seem freaishly long if she was the normal height for females (5'7-5'10), if one looked at her body (mainly her height) when she is around other enemies or characters, it becomes apparent that she is actually a lot taller than the normal height for females, a height that at that point would also require long legs in order to support herself.

Actually, I saw the video AFTER posting this...proves I didn't just regurgitate someone else's opinion, I suppose.

But this is what I've been saying! Thank you for articulating it so well. The game is set in a time/universe where Bayonetta's proportions are normal. Jeanne, Rodin, Luka, even the Angels, have her dimensions. Balder is taller than Bay, but no one seems to be upset that a man is being depicted as "not normal".
If Bay was a male character, people would just let it go because we're so used to seeing these idealised images of males, but a woman can't be tinkered with? Yes, Bayonetta is hot, but does that necessarily mean that she's ALL about fan-service?

I might be over-simplifying things here, but surely you have to be pretty desperate to get any real gratification from the game? I mean, the camera's on her for two seconds during the Climax Attacks, you see butt twice, she's covered up for the most part...

Of course, this is coming from a female perspective, so I don't really get the whole fan-service thing and its appeal.