Bayonetta is tasteless and immature. What do you think?

[noodles loves you]

I'm an aesthetics man myself, and I have to say that Bayonetta is fucking beautiful. It's sheer insanity as an art form. And yes it's pervy, but it knows it, plays it up to a huge degree and really, she's a proportional freak that couldn't exist in reality. And I LOVE that.

So yeah you're right, it's tasteless and mature, but fuck thinking that's a bad thing

 

[gamepopper101]

It has its moments, it's like Devil May Cry but with a badass witch instead of a badass immortal guy who runs a store.

 

[mechanixis]

For me, Bayonetta tried to be so cool as to out-cool anybody else in the room. This, however, was over the top for me. There were three moments that stood out for me that ruined any semblance of respect I had for the characters or pretense of plot.

1- During a boss fight, the main character takes shelter inside a flying house while a dragon assaults her paltry floating shelter. She then leaps out of the house mid-fall and using her hair, HITS THE DRAGON UPSIDE THE HEAD WITH THE HOUSE. I remember thinking "Okay... That's awesome... But something is off here..."

2- The heroine leaps to safety during a shoot-out, lands on a nearby bike, flips off her pursuers, and uses the extended digit to spike the bike's ignition and take off on a chase. "Wow... Alright, how did she fit that in there?... And... She took it out... And the bike shouldn't be... Okay, it's abandoning all pretense of realism, fine... But that's just... Okay" I tried to ration it out, but it was becoming all too pretentious between its lollipops and befuddled cameramen.

3- One of the leading antagonists, having been beaten and bruised through a multi-stage boss fight with a set of rocket launchers and ice skates, is finally taken out - by a tube of lipstick navigated between shards of broken glass. "Okay. I don't care what kind of 'feminism trumps corporate male greed' message you're putting on here. A being like that smoten by enchanted make-up? Screw this! You have no sympathetic traits, likable aspects,or redeeming features. Wither and die, femme" Clearly, at this point, I refused to see the character as anything else than a vehicle for fancy motions and attacks. Something about that last straw destroyed any connection between myself and the lady. I skipped every cinematic from there on, grinding onwards to finish the game. Sad, really, but the only thing that kept me going was the fluid counter system.

Oh, and then the FINAL fight almost cost me a controller.

I think you lose at grasping the idea of surrealism. Firing guns with your ankles, angelic bird-men, the ridiculous costumes, portal-hair-monsters, those are all fine, but when a boss gets killed with a tongue-and-cheek bullet gag, NOW the line's been crossed.

 

[2fish]

I thought the sexy overtone got annoying but the gameplay was good. It was shameless at points but hey all games have fan servce and tha japanese ones focus on some areas more than others.

 

[Browbeat]

For me, Bayonetta tried to be so cool as to out-cool anybody else in the room. This, however, was over the top for me. There were three moments that stood out for me that ruined any semblance of respect I had for the characters or pretense of plot.

1- During a boss fight, the main character takes shelter inside a flying house while a dragon assaults her paltry floating shelter. She then leaps out of the house mid-fall and using her hair, HITS THE DRAGON UPSIDE THE HEAD WITH THE HOUSE. I remember thinking "Okay... That's awesome... But something is off here..."

2- The heroine leaps to safety during a shoot-out, lands on a nearby bike, flips off her pursuers, and uses the extended digit to spike the bike's ignition and take off on a chase. "Wow... Alright, how did she fit that in there?... And... She took it out... And the bike shouldn't be... Okay, it's abandoning all pretense of realism, fine... But that's just... Okay" I tried to ration it out, but it was becoming all too pretentious between its lollipops and befuddled cameramen.

3- One of the leading antagonists, having been beaten and bruised through a multi-stage boss fight with a set of rocket launchers and ice skates, is finally taken out - by a tube of lipstick navigated between shards of broken glass. "Okay. I don't care what kind of 'feminism trumps corporate male greed' message you're putting on here. A being like that smoten by enchanted make-up? Screw this! You have no sympathetic traits, likable aspects,or redeeming features. Wither and die, femme" Clearly, at this point, I refused to see the character as anything else than a vehicle for fancy motions and attacks. Something about that last straw destroyed any connection between myself and the lady. I skipped every cinematic from there on, grinding onwards to finish the game. Sad, really, but the only thing that kept me going was the fluid counter system.

Oh, and then the FINAL fight almost cost me a controller.

I think you lose at grasping the idea of surrealism. Firing guns with your ankles, angelic bird-men, the ridiculous costumes, portal-hair-monsters, those are all fine, but when a boss gets killed with a tongue-and-cheek bullet gag, NOW the line's been crossed.

Precisely! If physics were reintroduced into this world, it would sunder itself within seconds of motion! Internal organs would burst, guns would implode, and meta-beings from other dimensions would fold upon themselves as their channeling points would leave them starved for aether!

In all seriousness, the mechanics of the game were solid, but while I found the over-the-top nature of Devil May Cry almost charming (in #3 he was surfing a Rocket, that rascal!), the straight-faced play at the ridiculousness on display in Bayonetta was at first jarring, then amusing, then grating, and finally appalling. It was the fact that the game clearly wanted the player to enjoy the powerful, free female character, aware of her sexuality, independence, and even burden of knowledge. Unfortunately, to me she came off as smug, arrogant, and orally fixated.

So while I do not gripe about the fact that firing ankle weaponry would normally leave her wheelchair-bound for life, I DO gripe about the fact that we are supposed to take her posturing as being acceptable, and even enjoyable.

Although, for the record, when a certain acquaintance races up a multi-stage rocket in upper atmosphere in a bike, that is a so-bad-it's-good moment. Therein, I gladly suspend disbelief and let the silly wash over me.

Just not when limitless power is treated so casually as a Lancome Killshot.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Yes, I already saw that when you posted it above. And I don't buy any of it. So because she is somewhat dis-proportioned (even though she is still hyper-sexualized where it counts) and because she doesn't fit into the two age-old female character stereotypes seen in gaming, she is suddenly progressive? Her lolly is a bit smaller then most? Talk about low standards. If the goal was to do away with these stereotypes, most of these elements would have not been included at all, or at least would have been done with a bit more tact, I would think. But since the goal is to sell games, they still have to be spectacular to a degree.

And here is the thing about dancing: she might not be dancing for "us", but we are still the end consumer, and Sega knows that. Even if her intent is to just dance by herself and for herself, she is still dancing for us, the gamers, as we are the ones who purchased the game, and we are the ones playing it. We are still the spectator and she is still being put on display, as an object to be fetishized, whether she "knows it" or even cares or not. We are the old men at the strip club and she is fetish fuel, even if she has oddly long legs. Heck, this game has probably created a fetish as a result of those strange legs.

You cannot simply label something that is "over the top" as being ironic without some depth to it, or, at least, the suggestion that what is being done is being done to break certain stereotypes. Again, I admit that I am commenting on the game having not played it and going from the various videos I've seen of the gameplay, so I am not saying my voice is the authority or whatever, but there is little to suggest from any reviews or videos I've seen to suggest that the intent was to create "reflective social commentary" as opposed to using camp and heavy doses of irony as a shield against accusations of the backward nature of hyper-fetishized women in a hyper-stylish spectacle fighter/shooter.

I'm not a fan of spectacle fighters in general, at least not the J ones (mostly anyway), and as much as this game might be fun, it still seems just as silly as the rest of the foolishness my beloved industry heaps upon us. Just my opinion though.

I understand that, from his and your POV, she is a step in the right direction, but the step is way too slight and singing praises for such nonsense is foolish, IMO. It could have been done much better.

I don't think at all it was the developer's intent to progress female game characters. I think it kinda says something about the game industry that a game which is just being an over-the-top, campy, cheesy, sexy, etc. action games has actually somewhat progressed female game characters in someway even if it was accidental. Shouldn't games with serious stories be doing that? I really think the game industry's weakest point is writing and creating relatable characters.

How much different is Bayonetta compared to your standard male game character in action game? Don't most male action game characters share the same character traits that Bayonetta has? Aren't those male characters sexy to women in the way Bayonetta is sexy to men? So, why is it wrong to have a character like Bayonetta when it's alright to have a Duke Nukem?

Bayonetta really has the most in common with great American cheesy action movies than anything. I never got into playing beat 'em up type games until Bayonetta. Devil May Cry's setting and enemies just didn't interest me much. There was just something about having angels as the enemy that sparked my interest; I like when things get flipped like a western sci-fi show like Firefly that includes swords fights and racing on horseback to make it to a spaceship. And witches for whatever reason are interesting to me. So I gave Bayonetta a shot and I loved every minute of it.

 

[spartan773]

What the hell do big corporate game desingers think we are nowadays? Do they think we're all sexually frustrated creeps with bizzare fetishes? Bayonetta isn't even sexy, and the story and concepts are shit. True, it was made in Japan. Do they get excused for this? No. Keep your creepy sexual fantasies to yourself, and put your obvious talents to something with some taste for God's sake.

I'm a very aesthetic based guy, and if a game looks or sounds bad I can NOT enjoy gameplay. I'm looking at you, Japan!

Now, Japan can make some beautiful works. Look at things like Zelda and some JRPGs. Wonderful stories and artwork. But occasionally you get some shit like the game mentioned beforehand: A shallow as a teaspoon mindless boob-fest, with awful design and storytelling and incredibly immature depictions of women and sexuality in general.

Thoughts? Do you disagree? Do you just think it's all in fun?

How would YOU feel if you were a game designer who had to make that game, would you begin to despise yourself? I'm sure I would...

I'm sorry, I'm just really getting tired of things like this nowadays, popping up everywhere. They just lack taste...

i didn't see anything wrong with her design, then again i fancy the glasses fetish.

 

[Nailz]

What the hell do big corporate game desingers think we are nowadays? Do they think we're all sexually frustrated creeps with bizzare fetishes?

Short answer, yes... as do the media, and most of the general population.

Actually it turns out they were basing this idea on the observation of this guy called Digi7...

lol

I'm a very aesthetic based guy, and if a game looks or sounds bad I can NOT enjoy gameplay. I'm looking at you, Japan!

I'm sorry, I'm just really getting tired of things like this nowadays, popping up everywhere. They just lack taste...

What they lack is not taste, they lack Your Taste
It's nice that you have opinions and everything but unless you can actually give a legitimate framework to your argument than all you're doing is shooting the shit without really saying anything at all or doing anything of use. You say you're into aesthetics however you really gave almost no aesthetic criticism, you basically made a completely emotional appeal without any content worthy of discussion. Taste is not tangible or a basis with which to discuss or valuate the merits of a game.


I think you'll find that Japan has the same ratio of good/bad content that everywhere else does. A majority is garbage and then there are the gems. As it is you leave nothing to discuss, I would ask you to maybe include a bit more forethought into your posts.

 

[Infernai]

Gameplays awesome, graphics pleasant and soundtracks good (for all my complaints against the game, these three are really the things i will NEVER rat out on). BUT i ultimately found the story to be uninteresting, and i ultimately lacked any real care for Bayonetta as a character (or in fact, the other cast members either). And thats normally a very very bad sign.

Than again i prefer Devil May Cry, but as i said on another topic i don't feel it is possible to truly be able to compare them fairly. On an unrelated note, i do think if capcom did a crossover Versus game with bayonetta it would be pretty awesome.

Anyway, to summarize; I liked the gameplay, graphics and soundtrack...everything else was just very much Meh.

 

[Lord Honk]

Meh, every audience gets what it wants, I don't blame Bayonetta for being, ahem, different, in lieu of a more fitting, albeit rude, expression.

And even by it's own merits, it can always stand as a bad example: "You want to make a game about a big-bosomed stripper who shoots guns from her ankles? Do you not know what happened last time?"

Come to think of it, the artistic reasoning behind the game is what really boggles my mind, for it is obviously the sole thing that keeps it from spontaneously combusting into mismatched gameplay and story elements that nobody would sink any funding into.

On that note, can a game (good or bad) be marketed to investors solely on the merits of its visual appeal? I mean, there had to be some guys going "Yeah, looks cool. Fair enough, here's your X amount of money."

 

[mechanixis]

For me, Bayonetta tried to be so cool as to out-cool anybody else in the room. This, however, was over the top for me. There were three moments that stood out for me that ruined any semblance of respect I had for the characters or pretense of plot.

1- During a boss fight, the main character takes shelter inside a flying house while a dragon assaults her paltry floating shelter. She then leaps out of the house mid-fall and using her hair, HITS THE DRAGON UPSIDE THE HEAD WITH THE HOUSE. I remember thinking "Okay... That's awesome... But something is off here..."

2- The heroine leaps to safety during a shoot-out, lands on a nearby bike, flips off her pursuers, and uses the extended digit to spike the bike's ignition and take off on a chase. "Wow... Alright, how did she fit that in there?... And... She took it out... And the bike shouldn't be... Okay, it's abandoning all pretense of realism, fine... But that's just... Okay" I tried to ration it out, but it was becoming all too pretentious between its lollipops and befuddled cameramen.

3- One of the leading antagonists, having been beaten and bruised through a multi-stage boss fight with a set of rocket launchers and ice skates, is finally taken out - by a tube of lipstick navigated between shards of broken glass. "Okay. I don't care what kind of 'feminism trumps corporate male greed' message you're putting on here. A being like that smoten by enchanted make-up? Screw this! You have no sympathetic traits, likable aspects,or redeeming features. Wither and die, femme" Clearly, at this point, I refused to see the character as anything else than a vehicle for fancy motions and attacks. Something about that last straw destroyed any connection between myself and the lady. I skipped every cinematic from there on, grinding onwards to finish the game. Sad, really, but the only thing that kept me going was the fluid counter system.

Oh, and then the FINAL fight almost cost me a controller.

I think you lose at grasping the idea of surrealism. Firing guns with your ankles, angelic bird-men, the ridiculous costumes, portal-hair-monsters, those are all fine, but when a boss gets killed with a tongue-and-cheek bullet gag, NOW the line's been crossed.

Precisely! If physics were reintroduced into this world, it would sunder itself within seconds of motion! Internal organs would burst, guns would implode, and meta-beings from other dimensions would fold upon themselves as their channeling points would leave them starved for aether!

In all seriousness, the mechanics of the game were solid, but while I found the over-the-top nature of Devil May Cry almost charming (in #3 he was surfing a Rocket, that rascal!), the straight-faced play at the ridiculousness on display in Bayonetta was at first jarring, then amusing, then grating, and finally appalling. It was the fact that the game clearly wanted the player to enjoy the powerful, free female character, aware of her sexuality, independence, and even burden of knowledge. Unfortunately, to me she came off as smug, arrogant, and orally fixated.

So while I do not gripe about the fact that firing ankle weaponry would normally leave her wheelchair-bound for life, I DO gripe about the fact that we are supposed to take her posturing as being acceptable, and even enjoyable.

Although, for the record, when a certain acquaintance races up a multi-stage rocket in upper atmosphere in a bike, that is a so-bad-it's-good moment. Therein, I gladly suspend disbelief and let the silly wash over me.

Just not when limitless power is treated so casually as a Lancome Killshot.

But you see, that's just it. Bayonetta doesn't give a flying fuck about how important you are or how nice your matching gold-and-porcelain dragon heads are. She doesn't acknowledge eminence or authority. That's central to her character, and that's why it's brought to the spotlight at the game's climactic moments (the lipstick-shot, and punching God into the sun). Her finishing blow to her mightiest opponents is to their inflated egos.

And at first, her total smugness and apathy are unlikable, but this is used as a setup for character development - her evolving relationships with Cereza and Luka gave her a certain warmth and humanity that I actually found quite well done (considering the circumstances, anyway; I mean, the story was still nonsense.) At it's core, the game is about a character whose never given a shit about anything forming an attachment and discovering the consequences of that attachment, and because it has that archetypal, underpinning story to it, I found the narrative enjoyable in spite of all the incomprehensible Left Eye/Umbra Witch/Jubilaeus/Vigrid/apocalypse/theology bullshit that was wedged in with it.

 

[Iron Mal]

To the OP.

I personally didn't like Bayonetta, playing the demo made me think the gameplay was boring, repetitive, the music was absolutely awful, I had no idea what was going on and it made me miss Devil May Cry.

However, I would not once critisise the design or stylisation of it, fanservice is going to be a part of the media for many, many years to come and it isn't going to disappear or change just because you think you're 'above it' (I'm reminded of the people who believe that banning things such as smoking and death in children's movies will make the world a better place).

All I can say personally is if you don't like a game or it's stylisation, don't play it (very simple, even children can grasp this concept), no-one is forcing you to play it and the medium of gaming is vast and diverse enough that there must be something out there that suits you.

Yours sincerely,

Mal

 

[Chewster]

I don't think at all it was the developer's intent to progress female game characters. I think it kinda says something about the game industry that a game which is just being an over-the-top, campy, cheesy, sexy, etc. action games has actually somewhat progressed female game characters in someway even if it was accidental. Shouldn't games with serious stories be doing that? I really think the game industry's weakest point is writing and creating relatable characters.

How much different is Bayonetta compared to your standard male game character in action game? Don't most male action game characters share the same character traits that Bayonetta has? Aren't those male characters sexy to women in the way Bayonetta is sexy to men? So, why is it wrong to have a character like Bayonetta when it's alright to have a Duke Nukem?

Bayonetta really has the most in common with great American cheesy action movies than anything. I never got into playing beat 'em up type games until Bayonetta. Devil May Cry's setting and enemies just didn't interest me much. There was just something about having angels as the enemy that sparked my interest; I like when things get flipped like a western sci-fi show like Firefly that includes swords fights and racing on horseback to make it to a spaceship. And witches for whatever reason are interesting to me. So I gave Bayonetta a shot and I loved every minute of it.

I agree that game writing is, for the most part, pitiful, but again, this is standard practice in most media industries. For every show like The Wire, there are ten Jersey Shores. Not much can be done, unless we collectively begin to demand better. It may happen yet. It did with television, for a while.

And no, I don't think that male eye-candy is any better, but I think the difference is, traditionally speaking, women have had to live up to higher expectations as far as looks go, and as such, these sorts of persistent protagonists do more damage then the Duke Nukems of the world. If our collective history were reversed, we'd be seeing more outrage at such protagonists, no doubt. Things are slowly changing though, so I have a degree of hope.

I do think that any progress is good, even in this instance, but just think it could be going a bit faster, is all. Old stereotypes die hard, and until the gamer one does, we probably won't see much change. I think it is important to look at the intent of game companies, as well as the result, so we don't wrongly sing praises and encourage bad stereotypes to persist by accident.

 

[TheTygerfire]

Do you disagree? Do you just think it's all in fun?

Yes, the whole sexuality thing you have a problem with is the entire joke of the game.

 

[Dr. HeatSync]

Well, if I consider Bayonetta anything, its actually a piss-take of over sexualised media in general; Look how unattractively tall she is (12 heads high, her legs are longer than her entire body and I don't think she needs glasses), she looks ridiculous and yet you know that someone, somewhere is buying a pillow with her printed image on it.

And don't say its purely japan that do this, I reference you to X-blades and the like. Bayonetta looks like a piss take of games such as X-Blades by being an exaggerated version that proudly struts about and flaunts itself, even having some laughable 'climax' finishers. I've found it more hilarious and something of a guilty pleasure than offensive.

I've only played the demo though, so I'll take your word for the shit story, although I have to say now that most JRPGs usually have a shit story (FF8,10), sexualised characters (FF10-2) and poor art direction (FF10). Even Samus has been getting more sexualised since she's been strutting about in that tight suit.

If I were a designer for something like Bayonetta, as in I had full control over the title, I'd have it planned from the start to be a big massive joke. I'd have the plot be laughable and ridiculous, yet make actual sense in the realm of the game. I'd have a visual style as opposed to realism, because thats less likely to piss people off in Uncanny Valley. I'd have a range of player characters geared specifically to take the piss out of the people who fap to say, maid costumes or nurses or whatever. However I'd hope to get the gameplay perfect in whatever genre it would be. Oh and the music has to kick ass, and I can't help but bring up Bayonetta's awesome music, if anything because I hate DMC's.

Being ashamed of something that you've designed shows a lack of confidence; that you don't want to see the possibility of it working, and to stop developing something like this halfway through would be a waste of valuable time and money. Look at the fucking game called 6 days in Fallujah, a potential incredible work of art shot down because it was considered 'distasteful' 'offensive' and 'inappropriate' by some guys on Fox News and that work actually has way more meaning than Bayonetta. Says a lot about audiences, and this is pretty loosely related.

Basically no confidence in the work = waste of time. I actually really hate the word 'taste' being thrown around like this. What does it really mean, what is 'factually distasteful'? Guaranteed to annoy or offend an audience, and how do avoid the extreme of consumers not buying the product? Its an opinion, like if you understood that the 'No Russian' level was fictional or Fox News thought it promoted terrorism.

But trying to conclude and stay on target, Bayonetta struts around and flaunts itself in such a way that I can't help but like it. It's stupid, its nonsensical, its 'unsexy' but it is fun to play. It's almost like 'its so unartistic that it is an art in itself' like the infamous can labeled 'artist's shit' that is somehow recognised as an art.

 

[Aphex Demon]

I think on the outside it makes itself look 'deep'. But yeah I think its a bit silly.

 

[Kif]

I agree, I found the game disturbingly immature and potentially detrimental to the image of games.