Bioware: FF13 is not an RPG

[Nomanslander]

I like now this thread really gets the fanboism out of people. There's a hefty sum of Bioware fans on these forums, and a hefty sum of JRPG fans, and since Bioware has called JRPGs out as being amateurs it's pretty much on now...=P

Only thing I can add is I do wish a had more control over the whole story of most JRPG, but I'd have to be really conceded type to call them out since JRPGs have been the ones to define the genre in video gaming the most.

It's like saying the original Doom wasn't an FPS because it didn't have regenerating health and limited gun carrying capacity....0o

 

[t_rexaur]

I got to page 5 of this topic before I had to stop.

I'd just like to say kudos to Daniel Erickson though. Most trolls only manage to rile up the board they lurk on which tends to be a very small percentage of the gaming community, he's managed to successfully troll much, much more.

 

[the D0rk One]

heh, you're quite write. at least he's got SOME writing technique after all that bioware intense training
i'm not usually caught up in these "we're cooler and truer" wars, but this guy seems to exhale pure fart whenever he breathes.

 

[Bane_Star]

I argue that almost all games are RPGs. In every game where you control a character, it's an RPG. Role playing game. You are playing a role. Even RTS/RTT games, where you play the role of the commander/ god/ thing that is telling units what to do. If you have an effect on what is happening, you are probably playing a role. Can anyone convince me otherwise?

I would argue (as I have for nigh on 20 years) that no computer game can be called an RPG, The best they can attempt is Computer Attempt at a Role Play Game.. or just Crappage..

If I cannot choose at any time to do anything that I can and want to do, Its not Role Playing.. Its just an Avatar in a Game environment. If I want to strip naked (and accept its consequences), punch a wall, attack anyone, sit still and do nothing, slowly carve a block of wood into a wooden duck.. Its not real roleplay..

Choose your own adventure books in the 1980's tried to claim they were RPG's.. and modern games are nothing more than advanced versions of those old books..

all the rest is Crappage.

 

[Always_Remain]

You know if there was a wise old man viewing this thread, like one of the stereotypical village elder guys, he'd probably shake his head and say "You're all being twats, including you Erickson, and this is a fucking pointless debate."

And I'd agree with him.

 

[Hogbinladen]

Therefore, with that simple step, I assumed control of that character and played the role of that character. That simple step made it an RPG. In an RPG you don't just play the role of a character...

Did you notice that you go against your only point one sentence after you wrote it?

 

[Ganthrinor]

Wasn't it the Japanese who came UP with the first RPG's? (video game wise)

nope it was americans, 1970s' don't know a specific title (possibly dungeon master they were mostly DnD derivatives) the biggest early one was from the 80s' though: Rogue.

The absolute earliest reference to a Role-playing videogame I could find was a game called "DnD" for mainframe computers that surfaced in 1974.

"Rogue" was released in 1980 by Michael Toy. As I recall, it was all ACSII "graphics" and is generally credited as the first Graphical game (up till then all the RPG's were text-based MUD-like games, the first MUD being "MUD1" and released in 1978).

"Ultima" followed in 1981 for the C64, Apple II, DOS and several other platforms including the Atari 8-bit and MSX.

1985 saw the rise of "The Bard's Tale" series.

In 1987 "The Bard's Tale" was ported to the Apple II and the "Might and Magic" series began on Apple II, DOS and C64.

SSI's "Heroes of the Lance" (Dragonlance campaign setting) and "Pools of Radiance" (Frogoteen Realms campaign setting) were released in 1988 for the Amiga and C64, both based in TSR's Dungeons and Dragons campaign settings.

Sierra's "Quest for Glory: So You Want to Be a Hero" was released in 1989 for the Amiga, Mac, DOS and Atari ST.






Oh, and on topic, I agree with BioWare. Doesn't mean FF13 isn't fun. It's just not a Role-playing game in the strictest sense of the term.

 

[8-Bit Grin]

I've never really been a fan of T-BAG'S, but I do rather enjoy the character development.

Exploring and developing a character yourself though...so very rewarding.

Freedom will always be a major win in my personal opinion.

 

[ManaAdvent]

To me, an RPG is any game where you lvl up and increase/customize stats, have a huge inventory, be able to change/customize weapons and/or jobs, and be able to roam free in a huge world and be able to revisit places. This was pretty much the type of RPGs I've grown up with and that probably never going to change.

Sure that char creation and morale systems can lead for more choices and freedom, but mostly for replay value purpose more so than anything else. However, it doesn't what makes the game entirely which I value gameplay over most aspects of a game. You may have multiple ways to complete the game but if gameplay is crap then what is the use of playing it over and over again? Though even if JRPGs don't have these elements or factors doesn't mean it is not an RPG. Only the company that creates the games can officially say if it is an RPG or not.

Well, point is that this Erickson guy is only one out of the hundreds of Bioware employees who probably have differentiating opinions and views on the topic and most will probably disagree with him. So he doesn't represent Bioware as whole and it doesn't mean that his views represents Bioware's as whole either.

WRPGs and JRPGs are different in their own unique way, not one is better than the other and both can still be fun.

 

[HSIAMetalKing]

No, it's an RPG. Bioware isn't the authority on genres-- just because FFXIII doesn't resemble their RPG Archetype doesn't make it not an RPG. The basis of RPG gaming for as long as I have been playing them, and it's been a long time, is that the game experience is built around a story in which you assume a role. Originally, RPGs could be differentiated from other games because most other games build their experience around gameplay-- early platformers like Mario and shooters like Contra weren't about the story or the world you inhabit-- they were about jumping on goombas and shooting lots of alien monsters.

Lots of games incorporate a story these days, yet it's pretty obvious which ones are there for the purpose of framing a "role playing" experience and which only serve to frame gameplay mechanics.

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Some of you people are making such idiotic generalizations. To say that all it takes to be an RPG is to play the role of a character. I can play the role of Lightning. Or Hope, or whatever (haven't played FF13). Or, ya know, I could play the role of a plumber, saving a princess. Whoo hoo, I can play the role of the plumber! Thanks, Super Mario Bros! Or I could play the role of Zangief, bravely battling my way through hardened warriors, suffering minor setbacks all the while, but in the end being victorious and glorified by all of mother Russia! Character progression at its finest!

On the flip side, to demand total choice is also stupid. Yeah, in ME you can't really change your ultimate goal. Go ahead and play up your PnP RPGs. Decide that instead of rolling a ranger, you'd rather be a cobbler, and refuse to do anything but craft shoes. See if you get invited back. While yes, the flexibility given by having a human think of consequences to your actions on the spot is much greater than a video game developer trying to think them out in advance, your DM DID think out a goal in advance, and is going to steer you toward that goal however you choose to go about it.

I believe that the defining characteristic of an RPG is the ability to make a choice, and have NPCs respond to it in a way that affects things for more than one battle. In Halo, you can choose to attack from a different angle, but once that battle is over your choice is forgotten. You can choose how to upgrade weapons in RE4, but I don't think "dying faster" can really be called NPC response by a sane person. In ME you can be selfless martyr, or a mercenary dick, and be treated differently. You can fall in love with (almost) your pick of the NPCs, and have the NPC "love" you back. In FF8 you can let Squall sink gradually into a depraved vigilante mindset before being redeemed by a passionate romance with Selphie. No wait. No you can't. You can uh... decide whether you want him to summon a fire demon, or a thunder bird. Hot balls whoo. I'm not saying all JRPGs are undeserving of the "RPG" part, but the FF series is very lacking on roleplaying. I know in the end I have to fight Kefka, but can I at least have the pretense of doing it to replace him? Can I have Barrett refuse to stay in my party after I say I'm only fighting Sephiroth for revenge? Can I have SOME nominal choice?

Who was talking about total choice? I have the oddest sensation that you were trying to address me with the ranger vs cobbler thing when I was talking about my choices having impact on the end result. I understand goals since they drive the game but I am just saying that I want my choices to impact said goal instead of just watching somebody else make that decision for me. At least that is the case if I am going to call it an RPG.

 

[UberNoodle]

Well, I see what he's trying to say, but in the game the player IS PLAYING a ROLE.

 

[Akihiko]

The term RPG fits FFXIII as much as it does any bioware game.

No where in those three words, "Role-Playing Game" does it suggest that the role you are playing needs to have been created by you. It suggests you are playing a role. Nothing more, nothing less.

The problem stems from the lack of a clear definition of what an RPG actually is. By the literal meaning of the term, the majority of games could fall into the category. However, people have made up their own definitions of the genre. Whether that is Biowares and Bethesda's WRPG's, or Square Enix/ATLUS/Namco Bandai etc's JRPG's. Truth be told, although they are both RPG's. I still consider both to be very different genre's. I play both types for different reasons. In WRPG's I expect freedom of choice, with an open world to explore. JRPG's on the other hand I expect characters and a story with excellent depth, which I believe FFXIII delivered for the most part. Both are equally deserving as the title of an RPG, but are both completely seperate entities. You all might have different ideas of what an RPG actually is, but it doesn't mean that another persons idea of what an RPG is wrong because you disagree with it.

 

[squid5580]

Hell yes. He is almost right. RPG means role playing game. FF13 was hardly a game but more of a spectator sport.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

I also agree with that notion, but the issue is that there is no clear definition on what defines something as an RPG. Borderlands and Bioshock have "RPG elements" but they are merely levelling up systems and upgrades, if they count as RPG elements then the line is a little fuzzy.

Agreed. I get annoyed when inventory systems and levelling up mechanics are considered RPG elements.

You mean to say they're not?

Well, it's not so much when people associate inventory systems or levelling up with RPGs, it's when people say that these things are the key feature of an RPG, rather than the actual roleplaying.

PS. What is it with people and taking one quote from a single person and assuming it means the whole company? It's bad enough that people say 'What do Bioware know' in response to a quote from a single person, but the OP isn't helping by labelling the news post as if Bioware itself became sentient and said that FF 13 isn't an RPG. I don't care that the original source called it that as well, they're still wrong.

 

[TheSupremeForce]

Does this mean that most of BioWare's games haven't been RPG's? Until quite recently, actions that happened "in game" didn't exactly matter a whole lot to what happened with characters/story.

The way areas tend to be tunnels in FF13 is largely the same as the way BW handled areas in Mass Effect 2.

Actually, BioWare and Square-Enix tend to have largely similar structures in how their games are designed anyway.

This is a silly thing to get worked up about. Some guy, who happens to work for BioWare, says something stupid in an attempt to get people into an argument. Clever. BioWare is closer to being Square-Enix than they are to be Bethesda. Note: I vastly prefer BW and SE to Bethesda, so that wasn't an attack on BW or SE or JRPG's or anything... other than possibly Bethesda depending on how sensitive a person might be.

 

[Chris Kolbeck]

how?

 

[Chris Kolbeck]

how

 

[NoaNeumann]

I'm sorry but if a game has you playing more then ten hours to get to the 'fun' then yeah... it's not a good game and anyone sticking in there and proclaiming it's greatness are just fanboys or those people whose tastes REALLY need to be called into question. FF13 was like I originally thought another piece of beautiful garbage. Where they were worried more about the looks and sounds and the graphics then about the story and character development.

I had a bad feeling about this game from the beginning, essentially when I noticed they talked more about the graphics, battle system and some.. singer who was basically unknown more about the actual plot. In fact now that I think about it, I don't think they EVER mentioned the story or plot which made me wonder if it was something like the dessert a five year old made after a 5-star dinner .

 

[Volafortis]

FF13 isn't an RPG. You don't interact with anyone, you don't make choice or play a "role". You simply play through the game. The character progression is there, but that's just an RPG element.

D&D (the grandfather of RPGs) is based around creating a character and deciding your path throughout the campaign. Mass Effect 2, although containing strong TPS element, is closer to that core element of RPGs than FF13. While FF13 may may have the combat and leveling system traditional to RPG video games, BioWare has the original core down, by allowing you to actually play the role you choose.