Bioware: FF13 is not an RPG

[Fightgarr]

Has Square ever actually stated that Final Fantasy XIII was an RPG? I'm just a curious. I loved the game. I didn't really consider it a "role-playing game", but I don't really care about genre-izing everything.

 

[Weaver]

So I say this and I get flamed into the fucking ground then bioware says this and everyone is like "oh that's a good point". You can all go to hell.

 

[Spitfire175]

Does it have stats and levels as a focus point of combat? It does? Congrats. It's an RPG.

Bioware, Dragon Age IS an RPG.

But Mass Effect is a third person shooter. You're level hardly matters, and you get few skill points.

So Borderlands is an RPG then?

Strangely enough, it was marketed as a FPS/RPG.

But it sold because of the stuff that wasn't "RPG". Nor did it have much role playing in it. If any. Just like Diablo, the "RPG" part is more of a marketing tick than a part of the game.

Just like the man said: "JRPGs" aren't role playing games. If you shove a level up system into a game it won't somehow magically become an RPG.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Hate to burst his bubble however considering the genre was originally created in Japan, which was the first country to introduce gaming as we know and enjoy it today, his declaration is nothing beyond arrogant boasting. A Role-playing Game is generally defined as an adventure wherein you play the role of a character and throughout their journey, be it by your personal input or a narrative predetermined outcome, those characters develop. The storyline, the character development, the sense of being drawn into the game's reality, these are all aspects of a properly designed role-playing game.

The difference is simply Western developers have embraced a more "player's choice" aspect of development, while Japanese developers fancy telling a tale. We can debate until the ends of eternity which is the superior amongst the two, personally I fancy JRPGs more because the focal point is primarily toward the storyline. Mass Effect, much as a I love the franchise, is significantly geared towards gameplay with a woefully short storyline, one could conclude in a day or two with minimal dedication. Xenogears, many FFs, you will spend double the length on the story alone.

Additionally, Mass Effect is not a complete definitive example of "You choose what happens!" because for all intended purposes, you do not. Shepard is on a mission to bring Saren to justice and ultimately, upon the conclusion of the game, you will accomplish this predetermined endeavor. You are not allotted the possibility of defecting yourself, the Reapers cannot force you under indoctrination, you cannot shoot Odine, you can only recruit the six established characters, NPCs are all identical to one another.

Yes Mass Effect offers choice and some portions of the game reflect this however Mass Effect 2 only further diminished this element by regulating the majority of your choices to poorly implicated cameos or quick emails. All this amounts to attempted elitism by a rival developer and a relatively pointless remark.

If I pooled one million gamers from both Japan and North America, as to which was the superior game: FFX or Mass Effect, FFXIII or Mass Effect 2, you will actually have a significant favor towards FFX in the case of the former, and probably more of a mixed result in the latter. Why? Preference.

Frankly Western developers/gamers are steadily becoming so insecure about their position, it is ridiculous. Not to claim Japanese developers/gamers do not possess insecurities. They simply appear in the minority by comparison. Just enjoy which ever games you fancy, and cease this inane rivalry of which is the superior RPG.

Edit: Reading the thread further, to any of you throwing around "WRPGS have multiple endings!" Well Final Fantasy X-2 had technically four, whilst Mass Effect had two. Ooooh challenged Bioware! /sarcasm

Yes I just used FFX-2 to mock the aforementioned argument attempting to cite one superior to the other. Painful, I know, however it proves a point: different endings do not hold any significance when it is a matter of "Kill this guy or do not" or "Whistle or do not".

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

I have to agree with you Derp. The "You're playing a pre-built role" defense is bullshit.

But this does nothing to hurt my "It's about stats" stance.

My copy of Football Manager 2010 is loaded with stats. It has more stats than FF13, ME2, and every GTA game combined. The characters 'fight' using their stats and skills, they even gain 'experience' and 'level up' their attributes with enough training. Still, I would find it very difficult to take you seriously if you were to claim that FM'10 is more of an RPG than any of the other titles I mentioned.

We can argue until we're blue in the face...but the fact is...Diablo doesn't have that shit, and it's considered an RPG. Same with MMORPGs. Just suck it up and admit defeat. YOU can call them what YOU want, but you'll be wrong the whole damn time.

Heh, that actually made me smile. "You're wrong and I'm right and that's the end of it!" Cute.

Diablo isn't more of an RPG than ME2. It's a hack&slash dungeon crawler. It has more in common with any given Roguelike than an RPG. Mumorpegers can be more RPG-like than any other genre currently in existence if you choose them to be (there's that magic word again: choice).

Note that I've never said that the Final Fantasies are bad games or anything. I just agree with the statement that they have very little to do with 'real' roleplaying games. In my opinion, JRPGs are simply a sort of spinoff genre from RPGs. They share the same roots, but have developed into very different genres today.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

*snip*

I have to agree with you Derp. The "You're playing a pre-built role" defense is bullshit.

But this does nothing to hurt my "It's about stats" stance.

Except for the name for the genre itself. Role Playing Game. Nowhere in that title does it refer to statistics, instead it refers to playing a role, probably of the main character. And by 'playing the role' it presumably means making choices outside of combat, something which FF 13 doesn't let you do.

You play the role in combat. They weren't talking about role playing in the sense that you are, but when RPGs started out, there weren't a lot of games like them, with deep combat mechanics. Most were one trick ponies, with one way to defeat enemies.

How precisely is this different from any other game then? In pretty much all genres you play the role in combat, be it athletic swordsman or space marine super-soldier. Why does it get called role-playing just because there are big numbers attached to the role you play in combat?

I SAID WHEN THEY STARTED OUT! This was before the FPS existed. This was before Wolfenstein. This is when games were pretty much...well. Arcade-y. They didn't really have many genres, then. And you made the CHOICES in combat. You had yer precious CHOICES in the combat. Most games then gave you one way to defeat each enemy. You role played in combat.

So what you're saying is that your defintion of an 'RPG' is now utterly obsolete? Just because they were mislabelled back then doesn't mean that the title RPG has become that over time. Your defintion is based purely on out of date technology, it has absolutely no meaning now. Your argument is weak even going by what was available when RPGs were first starting out as video games. Trying to fight as effectively as possible in combat isn't a role, it's a purpose. By the same merit Dig-Dug is an RPG because you're constantly making choices 'in combat' as to how you will kill the enemies as efficiently as you can.

 

[ObsessiveSketch]

OT: This is the issue most people have with JRPGs...they aren't RPGs. If they marketed them as adventure games, there would probably be less complaining by the gaming community, because the RPGers would ignore them.

Also, Turn-Based Adventure Games ftw. TBAG has long been needed as an acronym

 

[tycho0042]

http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/8006/bioware-you-can-put-a-j-in-front-of-it-but-final-fantasy-13-isnt-an-rpg

Bioware's Daniel Erickson:
Well, before I address the main point I just want to take a slightly more controversial route: You can put a 'J' in front of it, but it's not an RPG. You don't make any choices, you don't create a character, you don't live your character... I don't know what those are - adventure games maybe? But they're not RPG's."

I tend to agree but that's my opinion.

... That was pretty much the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Roleplaying game does not meant "Create your own character and live it out".
A good roleplayer can put him/herself into any character ROLE and PLAY it out.

I knew it.
Bioware is going to hell. It was only a matter of time.

Wow, someone else gets it!

 

[Spitfire175]

Bioware can suck my balls for all I care. Their games are nothing special to me, Mass Effect 1 & 2 certainly were good but I can mention loads of other games I prefer.

To me, RPGs have and always will be about the stats, the levelling, character gear and turn-based combat. If anything, its their games that aren't RPGs.

Oh, and can't forget about random encounters either.

RPG stands for role playing game, you know like d&d the thing that the games they were most known for have based their games on. Games like mass effect are about as much an RPG as final fantasy is. They both have rpg elements but mass effect is a rpg shooter and final fantasy is an adventure game with a few rpg elements. When you say bioware rpgs nobody things mass effect they are thinking of the other major ones. Neverwinter Nights, Dragon Age, Baldurs Gate, you know games that are impossible to argue that they arnt rpgs. You can not like a game but saying that its not an rpg just because you dont like the game is something a 6yr old child would say.


I think rpgs are more about role playing, hence different choices that you can make that will actually effect the story. Your not role playing in ff games since your actions are the exact same as every other person who played the game. However in an rpg like baldurs gate or dragon age everything you do can effect and change how the story plays out. Their is always more then one way to complete each quest the good ways the evil ways or neutral sometimes. Most of biowares games have this and all of their true rpgs definatly do. Games like ff and jrpgs do not have any of these elements. The leveling, equipment, and lol turn based combat are secondary elements to this, they are the means to an end, the way of moving the rpg along, giving you a sense of acomplisment. Western rpgs are turn based combat because alot of them evolved straight from d&d and many early ones used the combat system so hence the turn based combat. Turn based combat is also more of a strategy element then rpg since it gives you time to think about what attacks you want to do and plan out your next few moves, kind of like chess, it alot slower pace and sometimes easier to play but also can make it much harder. As for equipment and leveling lets take diablo 2, nobody would say that was a rpg and yet you level and get new equipment.

What it really comes down to is this, rpg stands for roll playing game. Games like final fantasy or most jrpgs iv heard of or play there is no role playing its simply a linear story that you follow with no choices that effect the actual story. Doing different things to effect the ending credits video you get doesnt count.

Yes, what he said.

 

[MatParker116]

Tell me the name of an RPG where you have more influence in the outcome of game as in Fallout 3.

Since there are only two possible outcomes in Fallout 3 I'm going to say many. Specifically, Star Ocean 2 has what, 50 endings, various choices in recruitable characters, a choice for which main character to follow and choices as in which Private Actions to participate, as well as the choices you make within them (as they affect the outcome of the game)...

Star Ocean 2 wins.

But don't get me wrong, I've played and love Fallout 3(logged hundreds of hours in that game and could have obtained two Platinum trophies if that was possible).

Actually there are over 200 endings for Fallout 3

 

[kaiser_what]

All RPGs suck anyway, it doesn't matter if it is Western or Japanese.

 

[Dr. Crawver]

I guess so, as you can't even choose how your characters level up

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

Lets just look at mass effect. You level up, you pick your party members who in turn level up. You go through an intresting story and well thats it theres not much in customization or anything if its an rpg its a dumbed down rpg I still love the game forgive me if i got upset but it just bugs me when people hate on one of my favorite games. FF13 you level up improve your characters get a choice of a party they all have 6 roles each that you can level up you even get a choice of weapons that all have there special abilties and even secreat syntheisis abilties you can upgrade your weapons as well. You also even have accsessories that effect everything from health to magic resitance you can also level these up and they have secreat properties when combined with certain other accesories both of wich Mass effect does not have. There both RPGS i'd say Mass effect wait let me reiterate. Mass effect 2 feels like a shooter with RPG elements thats my opinion but in all honesty there both RPGS FF13 and mass effect.

All the stats and level-ups and equipment in the world doesn't change a thing about the fact that Final Fantasy typically has virtually no player-input when it comes to decision-making outside of combat. Characters play out their predetermined roles rather than following the player's roleplaying decisions.

 

[Voodoomancer]

This all depends on how you define "Role playing game". You could say that HL2 is am RPG, where you play the role of Gordon Freeman, or you could define it by the game mechanics, and then it depends on how: Is it a game where you create a unique character and/or have XP (although there's XP in action games, FPSs and racing games these days too...) and/or collect various items to kit out your character (also in many other genres now), or maybe I've completely forgotten where I was going with this, so never mind...

 

[Devour]

RPG stands for role playing game, you know like d&d the thing that the games they were most known for have based their games on. Games like mass effect are about as much an RPG as final fantasy is. They both have rpg elements but mass effect is a rpg shooter and final fantasy is an adventure game with a few rpg elements. When you say bioware rpgs nobody things mass effect they are thinking of the other major ones. Neverwinter Nights, Dragon Age, Baldurs Gate, you know games that are impossible to argue that they arnt rpgs. You can not like a game but saying that its not an rpg just because you dont like the game is something a 6yr old child would say.


I think rpgs are more about role playing, hence different choices that you can make that will actually effect the story. Your not role playing in ff games since your actions are the exact same as every other person who played the game. However in an rpg like baldurs gate or dragon age everything you do can effect and change how the story plays out. Their is always more then one way to complete each quest the good ways the evil ways or neutral sometimes. Most of biowares games have this and all of their true rpgs definatly do. Games like ff and jrpgs do not have any of these elements. The leveling, equipment, and lol turn based combat are secondary elements to this, they are the means to an end, the way of moving the rpg along, giving you a sense of acomplisment. Western rpgs are turn based combat because alot of them evolved straight from d&d and many early ones used the combat system so hence the turn based combat. Turn based combat is also more of a strategy element then rpg since it gives you time to think about what attacks you want to do and plan out your next few moves, kind of like chess, it alot slower pace and sometimes easier to play but also can make it much harder. As for equipment and leveling lets take diablo 2, nobody would say that was a rpg and yet you level and get new equipment.

What it really comes down to is this, rpg stands for roll playing game. Games like final fantasy or most jrpgs iv heard of or play there is no role playing its simply a linear story that you follow with no choices that effect the actual story. Doing different things to effect the ending credits video you get doesnt count.

Who here roleplays whilst they play DA:O or ME? I doubt there are any of you that do it, or at least a minimal amount. Therefore, this guy's post is utter bullshit.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

Technically, RPG [role playing game] is a bit of a misstatement. In every game you play a role be that the role of a depressed teenager with an odd sense of fashion, a sack boy or, a person with OCD who insists upon organizing a cascade of falling blocks.

If we are to take the term RPG though in the context of, 'a game in which a character, in part or in whole, is created and controlled by the player who is, in effect, playing the role of the in-game character the player created.' Some games could easily fit into this [poorly] defined category such as Bioshock [where you chose which powers to obtain and weather or not you are a child killer], Legend of Zelda [where it can either be Link who saves Zelda or, Fagballs] or Oblivion [Where a mass murdering Argonian and, a White Mage Nord have the same chances of sving Cyrodill]

Final Fantasy XIII is always about Lightning, Snow, Hope, Vanille, Sazhs and, Fang. They all have the same skill tress and, even though they can learn skills not quite attributed to them, it requires many more hours of grinding. You always go down the same linear path, unable to at least have a party of gambling card jockey's, jocks or, gamers like past installments. You can't even explore the entire world, which has always been a staple in the Final Fantasy multiverse.

Players had more options in the first Pokemon games than the latest Final Fantasy adventure. I've read above about the Turn-Based Adventure Gaming above and agree that Square Exin did indeed T-Bag the remaining dregs of older Final Fantasy fans who remember what true Fantasy was. I prefer their new, poorly concealed Terrorism Sim Just Cause 2, in which you have the choice of dicking around,, blowing things up for fun or, dicking around in an airforce base, stealing a jet and blowing stuff up with that.